Boy Scout/Cub Scout popcorn sales question

[mom2scouts]

We don't have minimums and I would speak out very loudly about it. We encourage each Scout to sell as much as they are able.  Asking our Scouts to sell $300 or pay $100 would be a hardship on almost every boy in our Pack and most would drop Scouting before doing that.

[Mom0012]

My son never had to sell any popcorn as a Cub Scout. It was optional. My dh was his den leader, though, and he always put together inexpensive activities for the boys to do.

 

Now, AHG, they want what I consider an exorbitant amount of dues, plus we have to sell $200 of Yankee Candles or fork over a $100 donation. And NONE of that money goes to the units. The unit leaders either have to pay for things out of pocket or try to get the parents to come up with even more money. We finally quit this year because of a number of issues, and it is total bliss.

[Dmmetler]

My DD's cheer team (non-profit) has a minimal gym/coaching fee that has to be paid up front, but for everything else, you can either fundraise, via the candy sale, or you can simply pay out of pocket. I choose to pay because it seems wrong to ask someone else to pay for my DD to do rec cheer, but I do participate, with DD, in some of the Show and Sale days so that DD can help the others on her team for whom the fundraising makes a difference as to whether or not they can participate at all.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cheriwe]

My son's pack does not do the popcorn fundraiser. We all voted against it. We sell Christmas trees and wreathes and we do a cake auction at the blue and gold. 

[amyrobynne]

My 4th and 2nd graders are just now joining Cub Scouts (look at that, we have time for Scouts now that we're homeschooling!) and at the first meeting tonight, we found out that of our popcorn sales, 35% goes right into my kid's account and the rest pays for popcorn.  They don't make us sell, although they encourage it. Clearly, the more you sell, the less I have to pay. I think I'll talk to immediate family, who have all said they'd buy (I think they're just happy my kids haven't had fundraisers until now.) If they want to go door-to-door, I'll let them go to people we know. I will encourage them to do the table sale on Saturday since that seems pretty low pressure. 

 

Our pack makes most of its money by collecting aluminum cans. They empty a trailer a few times a year and that pays for badges and some dues. So I think fundraiser money goes toward camps and extras. I'll understand better next year.

[dm379]

Wow I did not realize how different packs can be. We pay $15/month plus a $25 one time registration fee. We are encouraged to sell $250 for popcorn but no big deal if we don't. We are only scheduled for one show and sell per den. Unfortunately we can't make ours so ds is out of luck. None of the money goes into individual accounts.

[CaliScoutMom]

I am a den leader for a teeny pack in the third smallest BSA Council in the US... I am also the "Popcorn Kernel" for our Pack. (Lucky me!)  I joined this site just so I could respond to this thread (though I have to say the whole site looks really interesting and informative!)  This discussion is really interesting and (for me) helpful - with regard to getting perspectives from other Scout Parents... And I will say up front that I don't like the popcorn sales and it is really hard to convince someone to buy an 11oz bag of Caramel Corn for $10... but as an earlier poster said, we aren't really selling popcorn, we are selling Scouting.

 

 

Last year, we did the popcorn sales and they were completely optional.  A couple of boys made no Take Order sales, and participated in 1 Show-n-Sell.  Two other Scouts made sales of $600 or more (this was combined Take order and Show-n-Sell).  The other three Scouts has something in between - all together the Pack made almost $1200 as commission. Which, IMO, is amazing for 7 Cub Scouts. Most of that was Show-N-Sell, and it was divided pretty evenly between the boys (with a bit of wiggling around to make sure that every Scout got at least a minimum prize level, but also to bump some up to the next level when it was close - especially for one of Tiger Cubs, who only sold 1 bag on his own, but his mom dragged him to *every* Show-n-Sell event we had. I had a lot of sympathy for that little guy!)

 

 

So, this year our Pack did decide to have a recommended goal for each Cub Scout ($300) - the reason being that a Pack needs money simply to survive.  Our dues have been $1 per meeting, and no Scout has ever been asked for it, so once in a while we collect about $2 or $3 at one of our weekly meetings.  We have not had any annual dues for the Pack (we are pretty new, just founded in May 2011) and about half our boys (mine included) come from a Title 1 school (meaning predominantly low-income).  Scouts who make $300 in sales are bringing about $100 to the Pack.  (ETA: The reason I think this is fair is because every Scout benefits from the Pack, every Scout benefits from the fundraiser, and it is not fair if a Scout contributes nothing at all. A baseline contribution is reasonable and fair.)

 

We told parents that if they chose not to participate, they would be asked to pay $100.  If their son sold, but did not achieve the $300 goal, he/they would get credit for what was sold, and be asked to make up the difference.  I then proceeded to schedule a marathon of Show-N-Sell times... and kept track of every hour each boy worked. We had 10 separate sessions, totaling almost 13 hours... No Scout was denied the chance to sell (GS only allows 4 girls at a time at their table sales - but I found that the more Cub Scouts we had, the better the sales - and they help each other!)  I allowed parents to drop boys off even if they could not stay. It was incredibly important to make sure that *every* Scout had the chance to achieve his goal without having to go door to door or ask family to buy over-priced popcorn. If the Cub Master, Den Leaders and Committee members are going to require the boys to sell, they need to give them the opportunity to do so. Those boys worked SO hard!!  All together, they sold almost $4000 worth of popcorn.  Every single Scout achieved his goal of $300 just through Show-N-Sell.  I am very proud of our Scouts and intend to talk to them about it at tonight's meeting.  They'll get the financial overview, kudos and reminders about the good and ethical sales techniques they used and (their favorite part!) they get to choose their prizes... there was also a bag of Caramel Corn that someone bought and donated to the Pack, so they get to eat that - which may, actually, be their favorite part...  Given all that I have seen our Scouts learn this year from sales, given how this has allowed our Pack to continue without forcing any family to shell out extra money and (perhaps most important) given the fact that the Scouts themselves have earned the money for the Pack, I am a lot more okay with the popcorn sales this year than I was last year.

 

Now - Donations... that is what actually got me googling about BSA Popcorn Sales and brought me here to this site...  I have been trying to find out how most Packs and Troops handle donations that are made during Trail's End Popcorn sales.  We actually had two people purchase the $30 Military donations, got receipts... but those can't be applied/credited to Show-N-Sell, they have to be credited to a particular Scout. (Okay, I can balance that) but we got almost $200 in small donations... Woo hoo!  Most of these were $1 and $2 donations to the Pack.  I was told by our Scout Executive that 1)Donations absolutely cannot be solicited by Scouts. No problem there, we never asked for any donations. and 2)Donations should be added up and sent as Military Donations through Trail's End.

 

Hmmm... This is where I have a problem.  I am doing it this year, especially because it is part of how all our Scouts made their $300 Sales Goal... but it just kills me that Trail's-End is getting 30% of that donation. (And I'm really ambivalent about sending high calorie, rot your teeth popcorn to our military!)  I don't feel like this is really in the spirit of how the donation was made, and although it helps our Scouts earn their cool prizes (*ahem*) it means less money for the Pack and the Council.  I also know that there are other Troops in my own Council who are putting the money directly into their own Troop funds.  The only reason I can see this not being right is the fact that our Scout Exec specifically told us not to do it.

 

So, I am really interested to hear about other Scout Familes opinions on donations that have been given during Show-N-Sell... it sounds like most Troops and Packs are just accepting donations completely, not passing any on to District or Council... has there been any official word from your Council execs?

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this...

(And apologies for the marathon post... I am a wordy person... seeking a support group for it! ;-) )

[Bearcat]

We pay $70 in dues, have a $200 in popcorn sales minimum or a $60 payout. The pack provides a book and neckerchief each year and that is about it. I had no idea there are packs with accounts for the scouts. Maybe selling stuff wouldn't be so annoying if that were the case with our pack.

We did the payout this year because, A.) we were out of town for most of October and B.) They have no good popcorn flavors this year! We usually do show and sells and then I buy however much I need to to make the minimum. This year the flavors are not appealing (bacon and cheese etc) and I am not spending that much money on gross popcorn. Where did the butter toffee and chocolate Carmel go? And the quality of Trails End is disappointing.

 

Honestly, I am not terribly impressed with the Cub Scout pack we are in and would bail but my Eagle Scout husband wants to keep our son in and our son does enjoy it, so we carry on.

[Santi]

Silly question- what are all those dues used to buy? When I led dd's Girl Scout troop we definitely didn't have a requirement for how many cookies sold and our dues were not even close to $70. The Boy Scout troops I've seen have had a lot of boys and that seems like a lot of money.

[vonfirmath]

Now - Donations... that is what actually got me googling about BSA Popcorn Sales and brought me here to this site...  I have been trying to find out how most Packs and Troops handle donations that are made during Trail's End Popcorn sales.  We actually had two people purchase the $30 Military donations, got receipts... but those can't be applied/credited to Show-N-Sell, they have to be credited to a particular Scout. (Okay, I can balance that) but we got almost $200 in small donations... Woo hoo!  Most of these were $1 and $2 donations to the Pack.  I was told by our Scout Executive that 1)Donations absolutely cannot be solicited by Scouts. No problem there, we never asked for any donations. and 2)Donations should be added up and sent as Military Donations through Trail's End.

 

Hmmm... This is where I have a problem.  I am doing it this year, especially because it is part of how all our Scouts made their $300 Sales Goal... but it just kills me that Trail's-End is getting 30% of that donation. (And I'm really ambivalent about sending high calorie, rot your teeth popcorn to our military!)  I don't feel like this is really in the spirit of how the donation was made, and although it helps our Scouts earn their cool prizes (*ahem*) it means less money for the Pack and the Council.  I also know that there are other Troops in my own Council who are putting the money directly into their own Troop funds.  The only reason I can see this not being right is the fact that our Scout Exec specifically told us not to do it.

 

I know when I give a donation to Girl Scouts selling cookies outside the store, my intention is to bypass the Girl Scout council entirely. I am supporting those girls and their pack but I DON'T want to support the Council. If I found the donation was going through the council anyway I'd stop donating entirely.

[CaliScoutMom]

Silly question- what are all those dues used to buy? When I led dd's Girl Scout troop we definitely didn't have a requirement for how many cookies sold and our dues were not even close to $70. The Boy Scout troops I've seen have had a lot of boys and that seems like a lot of money.

 

Santi - this is an excellent question!!! Any Troop/Pack/Den Leader who makes you think it isn't appropriate has their head in the wrong place.  Every parent - and Scout! - should be asking this question. It is going to be different for every Troop/Pack because they are pretty independent in many ways, but here's some of the breakdown for my Pack.

 

- Recharter fees (this is something Girl Scout Troops do not have. One of the many subtle differences between GSUS and BSA. BSA is more like a franchise, so each year Troops/Packs/Crews have to re-charter with BSA and their Charter Organization. Often a church, but not always. Last year, our recharter cost about $246, if I remember correctly.)

- Renewing BSA memberships for Scouts and Leaders (about $25 per person, plus the cost for Boys Life subscriptions) Incoming Scouts do have to pay their own membership fee the first year.

- Belt Loops, patches, advancement pins, etc. (this varies between $15-$50 per month)

- crafting supplies for Pack activities (often pretty cheap, but not always - and the more cash we have, the more options we have)

- Camp fees for Pack/Family camp outs (the Pack also paid for the firewood, families paid for food and a few other supplies)

- Making up the difference for families that don't pay their share of the food/supplies on the Family Camp Out :-( (this year, $60)

- This year: An official Pack Flag. This is something that the Scouts want and have voted on. It was part of the discussion we had at our Popcorn Kick-Off Party (which was at the Family Camp Out... I brought all the samples I'd been given at Popcorn Training so that the Scouts could taste stuff) It will cost about $250 (I almost had a heart attack...)

- Blue & Gold Banquet. Last year this was around $300. (Hard to know for sure, one parent accidentally blew our budget, so several of us chose not to get reimbursed) It was very important to us to have a nice dinner where Scouts were able to invite extended family and members of the community (like our Scout Exec and members of our Charter Organization) who had supported them throughout the year. There were no tickets or costs to families, it was all paid for by the Pack. (We will budget more carefully for this next one - and although we won't charge per person, we will get firmer numbers so we don't have too much food like last year... Live and Learn!)

- Transaction fees for accepting credit cards during popcorn sales. (It was a little over $25 this year - but well worth it since we got about $900 in sales we would not otherwise have had) Since we are set up for credit cards now, we will probably use it so parents can pay for things too...

 

Because we have earned more this year (looks like it will be at least $1500 - and I saw last night that we got our 3% Bonus!) I would like to add:

- More camp outs!

- Grants/scholarships/camperships - whatever you want to call them, but basically make it so that the Committee can *quietly* authorize the Pack to pay the way for Scouts who can't afford to do activities that most/all of the Scouts are going on. 

- Field Trips - there are so many places that are fun and give the opportunity for Scouts to learn and advance: Exploratorium, Science Centers, Museums, Zoos, just getting out into the woods or to a farm (we live in a very urban area, not all kids get the chance to do that)

- Neckerchief and a book! Bearcat said her pack provides that - and if that were all the Pack provided, it is pretty measly, but if it were part of an end-of-the-school-year advancement ceremony, as the boys were bridging up, it could be really nice.  However, it might just be the books, because many of the Scouts like the idea of 'Legacy' Neckerchief and Hat - the older Scout gives it to a younger Scout who is bridging up and it is a way of maintaining ties to each other. My son *loves* that his Webelos hat came from a Scout from his dad's old Troop. The older Scout (who really did not want this hat hanging around) was really happy that it was going to a younger Scout who could use it. (I was really glad I didn't have to pay for a third hat after the first two ($14 each) were stolen!)

- Possibly a gift to our Charter organization, which provided the space for our Blue & Gold Banquet. Kitchen plus a HUGE hall. Normally they would rent the space out for $700 (more for non-members) but they let us use it for free. They also provide meeting and storage space at no cost. Since we have more money this year, it would be nice to offer a token amount. (Last year, the Scouts showed up for a church garden clean up day the week after the banquet, as thanks for the space... Someone commented that there were more Scouts that Church members there!)

 

Meeting space is definitely something to consider - not all Troops get it for free.  My Girl Scout Troop originally wanted to meet at our school, but then the district said they would be charged $15 per meeting. (that was the discounted rate!) We found something else. (My Girl Scouts were also at the church garden clean up, and now we meet there too, for free!)

 

Some (Many?) troops do keep individual accounts for Scouts and they use that money for any BSA activities.  Our Pack does not, and it seems like an accounting nightmare, but I completely understand it. It makes a lot of sense when you consider the difference in efforts at fundraising. I think this is a bigger deal with Boy Scouts than Cub Scouts. Bigger fees for things like Jamboree and the camps get expensive.

 

One last comment: BSA does allow packs/troops/crews to do other fundraisers. You don't have to sell popcorn, there are a lot of other things to do, and Scouts can get creative about it. You just have to get Council approval.  For Girl Scouts, they absolutely will not allow Troops to do any fundraiser unless the Troop has participated in both the Fall Sale AND the big Cookie Sales in spring. There also has to be a minimum participation for girls and a minimum amount earned per girl.  My Girl Scout Troop (Brownies) is doing the Fall Sale, and I have not set any minimum... but I am really hoping that they make the Council minimums so that we have a chance to earn our $100 for the Troop. So basically, GSUS has set a sales quota for my girls. And the Troop will get a lot less out of it.

[CaliScoutMom]

I know when I give a donation to Girl Scouts selling cookies outside the store, my intention is to bypass the Girl Scout council entirely. I am supporting those girls and their pack but I DON'T want to support the Council. If I found the donation was going through the council anyway I'd stop donating entirely.

 

Thank you for this Vonfirmath.  I feel like that is the intention of the people who were giving to my Cub Scouts too.  When I talked to our Scout (Ombusdman? - helper guy from the Council!) about how we were told to handle donations he looked utterly shocked.  I am going to bring it up at the next Leader Roundtable.

 

I would actually be happy to support our local BSA Council - partly because it is so small and I know they struggle. More importantly, they are extremely responsive to the community and give substantial support to local packs/troops and individual Scouts.  Example: Last summer, my son desperately wanted to go to Webelos Adventure Camp (run by a different Council) the cost was $350. The website said "Every pack can send two leaders for free!" Reality: each pack got 1 leader free for 4 Scouts attending (so if you had 12 Scouts, you'd pay for the third leader)  We only had 4 Webelos in our Pack, and three were out of town for the summer!  I thought maybe they would let me go because my son has special needs and there was no way I would send him off to a huge summer camp, where he didn't know anybody and I'd have no assurance he would be appropriately cared for. Request denied (after many reminders - took so long to even get answers to any question from that ginormous council next door!) "Pony up another $350 if you want to go with your son... and btw, you will be an active Leader there and supervising other Scouts too." There was no way we could afford $700.  Then, I was talking to our Scout exec at the 4th of July parade about it and he said 'Of course you should go with your son! We have camperships for that.'  So, in I go to the Council office the next day and request the paperwork. "Um, that was due in May" ME: "But he said..." THEM: "Ok, if Scout Exec said, then fill it in and let's see".  Three days later I had my answer: They paid the full $350 for me to go.  (And, although I loved the camp, and so did my son, I can absolutely that it would have been a nightmare for him to have gone on his own... the one provisional boy we had in our patrol did great, but I never saw any kind of information about him from his parents - so if he'd had any special needs, it was totally on him to tell me. My son could not have done that.)

 

I do not feel obliged to offer that kind of support for my local (ginormous) Girl Scout Council.

[CaliScoutMom]

.... This year the flavors are not appealing (bacon and cheese etc) and I am not spending that much money on gross popcorn. Where did the butter toffee and chocolate Carmel go? And the quality of Trails End is disappointing.

 

I totally agree about the Bacon popcorn!  But the Jalepeno was actually pretty tasty - we sold out of two cases very quickly. Probably could have sold more if I had the energy... I am so burnt out on popcorn!  Home stretch now...

 

It would definitely be good if Trail's End focused a little more on healthier ingredients too. Did anybody else notice that 'popcorn' is the third ingredient in the Caramel Corn? At least the first ingredient is only 'corn syrup' not 'high-fructose corn syrup'...

[shawthorne44]

So, is the popcorn sales over?  Please say it is so!  My Eagle Scout DH is a sucker for them and he spent $100 two years ago.  Interesting discussion on the donations.  My plan had been to negotiate with my husband that we donate some money to the troop, and buy him some fancy popcorn.  But, if it just went in one big pot council pot, then I would be annoyed. 

[CaliScoutMom]

Well, the popcorn sales are over in my Council. Each Council gets to set its own dates, but if you aren't off the hook yet, you should be soon!

 

Comments regarding donations are really helpful. I need to follow the Council's directives (A Scout is "Trustworthy" and "Obedient") but knowing people's intentions when they donate may help me persuade the Council to change their position. Especially because a Scout is also "Thrifty"!

[vonfirmath]

Honestly, I'd put keeping the donation at the pack level in a "Trustworthy" pocket.

 

Our church definitely considers it a trust issue that they spend designated funds in the way they were designated.  If folks wanted to buy popcorn for the military -- they could do so. If they give a donation to the pack, from a trustworthy standpoint, the money is intended to stay local.

 

Now, out of the kindness of their heart, a pack that gets particularly generous donations could decide to gift their local council that had been really helpful to them out of their budget... But the Council has no call demanding those donations.

 

[CaliScoutMom]

Honestly, I'd put keeping the donation at the pack level in a "Trustworthy" pocket.

 

Our church definitely considers it a trust issue that they spend designated funds in the way they were designated.  If folks wanted to buy popcorn for the military -- they could do so. If they give a donation to the pack, from a trustworthy standpoint, the money is intended to stay local.

 

Now, out of the kindness of their heart, a pack that gets particularly generous donations could decide to gift their local council that had been really helpful to them out of their budget... But the Council has no call demanding those donations.

 

That's where my quandary is!  On the one hand, we are told "Boy Scouts do not ask for direct donations", and fundraising must be approved by the Council (and you pretty much need to be offering a product or a service).  Yet, on the other hand, we are told that every family in each Troop, Pack and Crew is expected to find donors for the "Friends of Scouting" which is the main source of support for the whole council.  I get it, we need to raise money, and I do love my Council... but somehow the quota for our pack (with 7 Scouts from 6 families) is $900...  yet we can't solicit smaller donations directly, we are supposed to ask family members to become 'Friends' and donate $100 each. (Although they aren't rejecting smaller amounts!)  It's tough (and now my cub master has decided every family needs to chip in $100 to the Pack as well -  and I understand that too, even though I would be more flexible with the number)... but I am definitely going to ask why those donations that came in $1's and 5's couldn't have been used to help fill some of our 'quota' for FOS donors, because it just ain't coming from the families of our Pack.  (All this completely ignoring the fact that the donations could have paid for our whole Blue and Gold Banquet, or that Pack Flag!)

 

Feeling much stronger about stating my view at the Leaders meeting coming up...  And thinking about other fundraising possibilities. Thanks.

[2_girls_mommy]

I hate selling. I really, really hate it. It is the only thing I truly hate about being in scouts.

 

We were out yesterday selling and I have to say it wasn't nearly as bad as selling door to door (we sold in front of a store.) However, I still hate it.

 

I am curious though: For those of you in scouting, how much does your scout need to sell or donate to the pack/troop?

 

Our current sales are as follows:

 

Sell $300 in popcorn per scout or,

donate $100 per scout.

 

What are your pack/troop minimums?

 

Dawn

I am a girl scout co-leader.  I have no boys.  but we do have minimums in our troop.  We have the girls sell enough to earn $30 for the troop (each box of cookies gets us .50)  or they have to pay the $30 to the troop.  That is what we simply need to cover supply fees and the awards and such each semester.   This I am ok with.

 

If a parent opts out of selling altogether we have them pay for any activities like trips or such that the cookie $ will cover as well if we sell enough for something like that after expenses.  I have a bit of trouble w/that one, as it isn't the child's fault if the parent opts out of selling.  The kid may miss out on something if the parent then can't or won't pay for the activity.  But that is our troop has always done it long before I was there, and nobody has complained.  Those that opt out of selling are those that would rather just pay outright than put in the time selling. 

[Santi]

I am a girl scout co-leader. I have no boys. but we do have minimums in our troop. We have the girls sell enough to earn $30 for the troop (each box of cookies gets us .50) or they have to pay the $30 to the troop. That is what we simply need to cover supply fees and the awards and such each semester. This I am ok with.

 

There are rules against this in Girl Scouts.

[Guest Untrained Mind]

I'm surprised to see so many using individual scout accounts. I admit it could be helpful and provide incentives, but it is explicitly against BSA policy:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units.pdf

 

Specifically:

"Can my unit credit amounts from fundraising to an individual toward their expenses? No. The IRS has stated that crediting fundraising amounts constitutes private benefit. However, the unit could use the funds (all or a percentage) raised to reduce or eliminate dues and various registration fees, purchase uniforms and Scouting books, and purchase camping equipment. The unit could also use its funds to provide assistance to individual Scouts in cases of financial hardship."

 

Have any of you gotten feedback on this from the Council level?

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm surprised to see so many using individual scout accounts. I admit it could be helpful and provide incentives, but it is explicitly against BSA policy:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units.pdf

 

Specifically:

"Can my unit credit amounts from fundraising to an individual toward their expenses? No. The IRS has stated that crediting fundraising amounts constitutes private benefit. However, the unit could use the funds (all or a percentage) raised to reduce or eliminate dues and various registration fees, purchase uniforms and Scouting books, and purchase camping equipment. The unit could also use its funds to provide assistance to individual Scouts in cases of financial hardship."

 

Have any of you gotten feedback on this from the Council level?

I thought this policy changed only in January of this year. This thread is from last year and predates the policy in question. Before this year, I thought both GSUSA and BSA were allowing this in long-standing troops? But, new clarification caused them to change this year? I am not a big volunteer in BSA, so I don't have a full understanding of the whole thing, but that was my understanding? This is an old thread.