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Singapore CWP 4: "ARG!!!!!!!!!"

Halcyon

By Halcyon,
in K-8 Curriculum Board

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nmoira

nmoira

Posted
Posted
:banghead:

 

:cursing:

 

That is all.

 

ETA: My son just told me it was the IP, not the CWP, that was killing us. Makes me feel a little bit better, as last year's IP was challenging as well. But still: :banghead:

 

:grouphug: (But only 'cause we're virtual and I don't have to worry about getting head butted.)

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Dana

Dana

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The problems in CWP 4 (old book) on whole numbers (first section) are definitely tougher than anything before.

 

The good thing is that the fractions are quite a bit easier - and the tables and geometry are much better.

 

But those whole number ones are nasty.

 

I console myself that I'm giving my son the opportunity to experience failure :) repeatedly :lol:

 

 

But he does get a real sense of accomplishment when he finally gets it!

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Halcyon

Halcyon

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The problems in CWP 4 (old book) on whole numbers (first section) are definitely tougher than anything before.

 

The good thing is that the fractions are quite a bit easier - and the tables and geometry are much better.

 

But those whole number ones are nasty.

 

I console myself that I'm giving my son the opportunity to experience failure :) repeatedly :lol:

 

 

But he does get a real sense of accomplishment when he finally gets it!

 

That's the section of IP that we were muddling through--the word problems section, though. The rest is fine, but some of those word problems...holy moly. My son is getting to experience ME failing, that's for sure.

 

Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo."

Son: "So what's the answer?"

Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!!

Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?"

Me: "Um....."

 

 

:001_huh:

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Crimson Wife

Crimson Wife

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I'm telling you, there are problems in CWP 4 and IP 4 that are similar to ones I remember being on the SAT.

 

If it makes you feel better, quant jock DH with his Stanford engineering degree and Harvard MBA got stumped today by one of the problems in the AOPS Beast Academy 3A sample practice books. He was able to explain why the answer in the back was correct once I told him what it was, but he didn't figure it out on his own.

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Halcyon

Halcyon

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I'm telling you, there are problems in CWP 4 and IP 4 that are similar to ones I remember being on the SAT.

 

If it makes you feel better, quant jock DH with his Stanford engineering degree and Harvard MBA got stumped today by one of the problems in the AOPS Beast Academy 3A sample practice books. He was able to explain why the answer in the back was correct once I told him what it was, but he didn't figure it out on his own.

 

 

Ha! This makes me feel better. My "went to Columbia at 15" mathy hubby was stumped by the same one that stumped my son and me....luckily, this one happened to be HARDER than the "Take the Challenge" questions.....sometimes there's one in there that just really throws you for a loop. :tongue_smilie:

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chepyl

chepyl

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Okay, I have been hearing a lot about this bar model or method for solving problems in SM. We are only in 2A, and we have not started the CWP book. We have worked in the IP book. What problems require the bar method and what is it? When I get to the point of needing it is it explained well? I am good at math, but higher algebra and calculus are what I am better at....

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texasmama

texasmama

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Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo."

Son: "So what's the answer?"

Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!!

Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?"

Me: "Um....."

 

 

:001_huh:

 

This is not infrequently my experience. I can solve the problems algebraically, but that is NOT what ds needs to be doing. I have only been half successful in reteaching myself to solve through bar diagrams.

 

 

I actually had to put away IP because it was vexing ds so much, and he was unable to move on one day.

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Roadrunner

Roadrunner

Posted
Posted
Okay, I have been hearing a lot about this bar model or method for solving problems in SM. We are only in 2A, and we have not started the CWP book. We have worked in the IP book. What problems require the bar method and what is it? When I get to the point of needing it is it explained well? I am good at math, but higher algebra and calculus are what I am better at....

 

Thake a look at 2A IP and you will see bar diagrams in the word problems section. There are simple ones and the diagram is already drawn.

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chepyl

chepyl

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We have been working in IP 2A; is it the little things that have:

 

________________

10

________________

________________

4 / ?????

_________________

 

Sorry...that is the best artwork I can do on my computer right now:glare:; but part of it is shaded. We have not really used them at all. I just ask and he works it out in his head....

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Roadrunner

Roadrunner

Posted
Posted
We have been working in IP 2A; is it the little things that have:

 

________________

10

________________

________________

4 / ?????

_________________

 

Sorry...that is the best artwork I can do on my computer right now:glare:; but part of it is shaded. We have not really used them at all. I just ask and he works it out in his head....

 

I think (based on your picture :lol:). I think all IP 2A does (I haven't flipped through CWP 2 yet. I am scared:tongue_smilie:) is introduce them. All it asks to fill those diagrams in just like number bonds. I think it's a good intro before kids have to do it themselves.

This talk makes me nervous. We did CWP1 last summer and it wasn't bad at all. We are doing IP2A now and so far so good, but knowing what's to come makes me want to hide under the blanket and eat ice cream. :lol:

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ElizabethB

ElizabethB

Posted
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I am with you!

 

I can teach Algebra and trig easy, but 4th grade Singapore math is taking a bit of time! Maybe I need a new poll specifically for Singapore folks!!

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311576

 

(And, today, one of the answers in the answer book was wrong, I had to e-mail my husband to double check to make sure we did it right.)

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yvonne

yvonne

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(And, today, one of the answers in the answer book was wrong, I had to e-mail my husband to double check to make sure we did it right.)

 

Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book.

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Halcyon

Halcyon

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Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book.

 

 

Do you have a link to this? I didn't realize such a thing existed.

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ElizabethB

ElizabethB

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Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book.

 

I will, but I'm thinking it is really wrong--I worked as a statistician and my husband just finished up an Ops Research M.S. and then a year working at Rand doing some high powered math!

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ElizabethB

ElizabethB

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Spoiler alert--answers to follow!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The answer we got, 10.

 

The book said -2. I have no idea why, my husband did it the 4 wrong order of operations ways and got as possible wrong answers, coming up with -0.4, -9.6, 0, and 0.4. (We may have spent way too much time and brain cells on this, I'm thinking.)

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Halcyon

Halcyon

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:001_smile:

 

OK, here it is:

 

Exercise 10, 3 b, Standards Edition. (4A)

 

6 x 2 - 10 / 5

 

They are working on order of operations, the slash was a little divided by sign that I cannot find on my keyboard.

 

Well, I have the latest HIG and the answer key says a totally different question, followed by a note that says "error in 2008 printing". My workbook has the same question you posted above, but the answer key has:

 

60 / 5 - 6 x 2

=12-12

=0

 

So I guess they mean the question was printed wrong? :confused: My guess is that they meant to write the original question as 6 x 2 - 60 / 5 instead of what's there. Seems odd they wouldn't have changed the workbook too though!

 

ETA: And FWIW, I got 10 too (for the question as printed in the workbook).

Edited by Halcyon
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Halcyon

Halcyon

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For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie:

 

Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers.

a) how many students are there in the violin group?

b) How many reward stickers does he have?

 

I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models.....

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boscopup

boscopup

Posted
Posted
For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie:

 

Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers.

a) how many students are there in the violin group?

b) How many reward stickers does he have?

 

I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models.....

 

Oh, I'm getting better at this stuff! Ok, here's what I did...

 

[3][3][...][3][3][-----75-----]

[3][3][...][3][3][3][3][...][3][3]

 

The second one goes 30 longer than the first one. So you know the [3] stuff is 75+30=105. That means there are 35 students (105/3). Then you take 105 + 75 = 180.

 

a) 35

b) 180

 

Not sure how Singapore does it, but I assume it'd be something resembling that. :)

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Dana

Dana

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Posted
For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie:

 

Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers.

a) how many students are there in the violin group?

b) How many reward stickers does he have?

 

I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models.....

 

Yeah... this is one my son hasn't done yet. Think he may have looked at it once so far.

 

I could draw a bar model, but all it gave me was the algebraic equation:

3x + 75 = 6x - 30 :glare:

It sure gives the correct answers but I'm really curious to see if my son will be able to figure it out on his own with some time... or not!

 

The fractions went much smoother :)

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Dana

Dana

Posted
Posted
Oh, I'm getting better at this stuff! Ok, here's what I did...

 

[3][3][...][3][3][-----75-----]

[3][3][...][3][3][3][3][...][3][3]

 

The second one goes 30 longer than the first one. So you know the [3] stuff is 75+30=105. That means there are 35 students (105/3). Then you take 105 + 75 = 180.

 

a) 35

b) 180

 

Not sure how Singapore does it, but I assume it'd be something resembling that. :)

 

Okay... I can see that now.

I had my diagram set up with 75, then the 3s, so I wasn't comparing like things.

 

Cool! Thanks!

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Aubrey

Aubrey

Posted
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I remember that problem! :lol:

 

Fwiw, I've never really *gotten* the bar method until this year (5A), & suddenly? It's pure genius! I've just taught ds the Algebra where necessary...there was nobody there to tell me that was wrong, lol!

 

This year, though, the bar method is finally easier than the Alg, &...sometimes I can't make the alg work. :svengo:

 

But while I've been having to work harder at teaching/understanding since about 4th g...well...that's so much more fun than teaching addition facts or counting. :001_smile:

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Way2blessed

Way2blessed

Posted
Posted (edited)

here's how we solved it--

|--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---| Showing that we don't know how many students, but that the group got a first sticker, second, and a third, and there were 75 left. Then when he gave out 6 stickers, he had the same amount as he did the first time, but needed 30 more, so

|--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---|---30--|

 

|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|

So,( 75+30)/3=35 in the class.

Then we plug the 35 back into the first bar diagram to show that 35+35+35+75=180 stickers.

Edited by Way2blessed
Edited to add parenthesis
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Education Explorers

Education Explorers

Posted
Posted

 

Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo."

Son: "So what's the answer?"

Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!!

Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?"

Me: "Um....."

 

 

:001_huh:

 

Deja Vu!!! Sounds like word problems at our house too. They are very challenging for my daughter (and me too)! I haven't thought mathematically in forever (if ever). Never needed to as a lawyer. The hardest part is to keep my daughter's confidence up while tackling a new way of thinking.

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Halcyon

Halcyon

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here's how we solved it--

|--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---| Showing that we don't know how many students, but that the group got a first sticker, second, and a third, and there were 75 left. Then when he gave out 6 stickers, he had the same amount as he did the first time, but needed 30 more, so

|--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---|---30--|

 

|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|

So,( 75+30)/3=35 in the class.

Then we plug the 35 back into the first bar diagram to show that 35+35+35+75=180 stickers.

 

 

The only part I am not following here is why you're dividing 75+30 by 3?

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Dana

Dana

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The only part I am not following here is why you're dividing 75+30 by 3?

 

If you draw the diagram... initially each had 3 stickers... the second time each has 6... but if you write the 6 as 3 & 3, then one set of 3's matches up with the first bar... in the second time, we have a set of 3's that matches with the 75 + 30.

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