Halcyon Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) :banghead: :cursing: That is all. ETA: My son just told me it was the IP, not the CWP, that was killing us. Makes me feel a little bit better, as last year's IP was challenging as well. But still: :banghead: Edited September 20, 2011 by Halcyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyCamper Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 You made me smile. We are starting CWP 3, and it is so hard for me to figure out how to explain the solutions. That is why I use MUS for our main curriculum.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yeah, the IP is quite challenging! I'm just glad they have the answers in the back! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 :banghead: :cursing: That is all. ETA: My son just told me it was the IP, not the CWP, that was killing us. Makes me feel a little bit better, as last year's IP was challenging as well. But still: :banghead: :grouphug: (But only 'cause we're virtual and I don't have to worry about getting head butted.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I just read that today is "talk like a pirate day" and I thought this thread was related somehow. I'm sorry that this is a genuine "arg!" and not a just-for-fun "arg!".:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The problems in CWP 4 (old book) on whole numbers (first section) are definitely tougher than anything before. The good thing is that the fractions are quite a bit easier - and the tables and geometry are much better. But those whole number ones are nasty. I console myself that I'm giving my son the opportunity to experience failure :) repeatedly :lol: But he does get a real sense of accomplishment when he finally gets it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 The problems in CWP 4 (old book) on whole numbers (first section) are definitely tougher than anything before. The good thing is that the fractions are quite a bit easier - and the tables and geometry are much better. But those whole number ones are nasty. I console myself that I'm giving my son the opportunity to experience failure :) repeatedly :lol: But he does get a real sense of accomplishment when he finally gets it! That's the section of IP that we were muddling through--the word problems section, though. The rest is fine, but some of those word problems...holy moly. My son is getting to experience ME failing, that's for sure. Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo." Son: "So what's the answer?" Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!! Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?" Me: "Um....." :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I'm telling you, there are problems in CWP 4 and IP 4 that are similar to ones I remember being on the SAT. If it makes you feel better, quant jock DH with his Stanford engineering degree and Harvard MBA got stumped today by one of the problems in the AOPS Beast Academy 3A sample practice books. He was able to explain why the answer in the back was correct once I told him what it was, but he didn't figure it out on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 I'm telling you, there are problems in CWP 4 and IP 4 that are similar to ones I remember being on the SAT. If it makes you feel better, quant jock DH with his Stanford engineering degree and Harvard MBA got stumped today by one of the problems in the AOPS Beast Academy 3A sample practice books. He was able to explain why the answer in the back was correct once I told him what it was, but he didn't figure it out on his own. Ha! This makes me feel better. My "went to Columbia at 15" mathy hubby was stumped by the same one that stumped my son and me....luckily, this one happened to be HARDER than the "Take the Challenge" questions.....sometimes there's one in there that just really throws you for a loop. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Okay, I have been hearing a lot about this bar model or method for solving problems in SM. We are only in 2A, and we have not started the CWP book. We have worked in the IP book. What problems require the bar method and what is it? When I get to the point of needing it is it explained well? I am good at math, but higher algebra and calculus are what I am better at.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo."Son: "So what's the answer?" Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!! Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?" Me: "Um....." :001_huh: This is not infrequently my experience. I can solve the problems algebraically, but that is NOT what ds needs to be doing. I have only been half successful in reteaching myself to solve through bar diagrams. I actually had to put away IP because it was vexing ds so much, and he was unable to move on one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Okay, I have been hearing a lot about this bar model or method for solving problems in SM. We are only in 2A, and we have not started the CWP book. We have worked in the IP book. What problems require the bar method and what is it? When I get to the point of needing it is it explained well? I am good at math, but higher algebra and calculus are what I am better at.... Thake a look at 2A IP and you will see bar diagrams in the word problems section. There are simple ones and the diagram is already drawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 We have been working in IP 2A; is it the little things that have: ________________ 10 ________________ ________________ 4 / ????? _________________ Sorry...that is the best artwork I can do on my computer right now:glare:; but part of it is shaded. We have not really used them at all. I just ask and he works it out in his head.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I think CWP explains the bar diagrams more. We started with CWP 2, and it's taught us well. :) The IP bar diagrams seemed to not be needed as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tress Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 SM 3A has a lot of lessons on how to draw and use bar diagrams. But if you have been doing CWP2, those lessons are a bit redundant. So you could either do CWP2 or wait for SM 3A. Either way, you are fine. HTH, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 If you end up switching to the CWP, we're working thru CWP 4 right now and it is doable. ...just want to agree that the IP workbooks are really, really challenging... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyCamper Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I am off to get CWP 2:auto: this discussion has helped me find where the bar method is taught. Starting with CWP3 is not working for us. :glare: Thank you for identifying the right book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 We have been working in IP 2A; is it the little things that have: ________________ 10 ________________ ________________ 4 / ????? _________________ Sorry...that is the best artwork I can do on my computer right now:glare:; but part of it is shaded. We have not really used them at all. I just ask and he works it out in his head.... I think (based on your picture :lol:). I think all IP 2A does (I haven't flipped through CWP 2 yet. I am scared:tongue_smilie:) is introduce them. All it asks to fill those diagrams in just like number bonds. I think it's a good intro before kids have to do it themselves. This talk makes me nervous. We did CWP1 last summer and it wasn't bad at all. We are doing IP2A now and so far so good, but knowing what's to come makes me want to hide under the blanket and eat ice cream. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 If you end up switching to the CWP, we're working thru CWP 4 right now and it is doable. ...just want to agree that the IP workbooks are really, really challenging... We're doing the CWP as well as the IP, and yes, the CWP is definitely more doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HootyTooty Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 :lol: We just went through this last weekend with CWP and I thought the IP (which we have used since Gr 1) were more doable. Different strokes. Nothing like flipping through the back for confirmation of your mathematical awesomeness to be left :001_huh: and your child sitting right there. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnrmom Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Um, I am pretty good at math, did great in calculus, can do pages of economic proofs, but I was looking at CWP (GRADE 2!!!!) and couldn't figure most of them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I am with you! I can teach Algebra and trig easy, but 4th grade Singapore math is taking a bit of time! Maybe I need a new poll specifically for Singapore folks!! http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311576 (And, today, one of the answers in the answer book was wrong, I had to e-mail my husband to double check to make sure we did it right.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonne Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (And, today, one of the answers in the answer book was wrong, I had to e-mail my husband to double check to make sure we did it right.) Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book. Do you have a link to this? I didn't realize such a thing existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-) I've encountered and posted a couple problems where I thought the answer in the book was wrong. Someone's always been able to point out how to arrive at the answer in the book. I will, but I'm thinking it is really wrong--I worked as a statistician and my husband just finished up an Ops Research M.S. and then a year working at Rand doing some high powered math! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Post it to the Singapore yahoo group. :-)Well, yeah, but please try posting it here first. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well, yeah, but please try posting it here first. :) :001_smile: OK, here it is: Exercise 10, 3 b, Standards Edition. (4A) 6 x 2 - 10 / 5 They are working on order of operations, the slash was a little divided by sign that I cannot find on my keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 :001_smile: OK, here it is: Exercise 10, 3 b, Standards Edition. (4A) 6 x 2 - 10 / 5 They are working on order of operations, the slash was a little divided by sign that I cannot find on my keyboard. I have no idea what your SM answer key says but the answer is 10. (12-2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Spoiler alert--answers to follow! The answer we got, 10. The book said -2. I have no idea why, my husband did it the 4 wrong order of operations ways and got as possible wrong answers, coming up with -0.4, -9.6, 0, and 0.4. (We may have spent way too much time and brain cells on this, I'm thinking.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) :001_smile: OK, here it is: Exercise 10, 3 b, Standards Edition. (4A) 6 x 2 - 10 / 5 They are working on order of operations, the slash was a little divided by sign that I cannot find on my keyboard. Well, I have the latest HIG and the answer key says a totally different question, followed by a note that says "error in 2008 printing". My workbook has the same question you posted above, but the answer key has: 60 / 5 - 6 x 2 =12-12 =0 So I guess they mean the question was printed wrong? :confused: My guess is that they meant to write the original question as 6 x 2 - 60 / 5 instead of what's there. Seems odd they wouldn't have changed the workbook too though! ETA: And FWIW, I got 10 too (for the question as printed in the workbook). Edited September 21, 2011 by Halcyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie: Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers. a) how many students are there in the violin group? b) How many reward stickers does he have? I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie: Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers. a) how many students are there in the violin group? b) How many reward stickers does he have? I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models..... Oh, I'm getting better at this stuff! Ok, here's what I did... [3][3][...][3][3][-----75-----] [3][3][...][3][3][3][3][...][3][3] The second one goes 30 longer than the first one. So you know the [3] stuff is 75+30=105. That means there are 35 students (105/3). Then you take 105 + 75 = 180. a) 35 b) 180 Not sure how Singapore does it, but I assume it'd be something resembling that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 For fun, I'll post the question that stumped my son and me in the IP. (FWIW, we got all the "Take the Challenge" questions that followed this question, which wasn't considered "challenging" I guess :tongue_smilie: Mr Ching wants to give a group of his violin students some reward stickers. If he gives each student 3 stickers, he will have 75 stickers left. If he gives each student 6 stickers, he will need 30 more stickers. a) how many students are there in the violin group? b) How many reward stickers does he have? I tried my darndest to solve this with bar models..... Yeah... this is one my son hasn't done yet. Think he may have looked at it once so far. I could draw a bar model, but all it gave me was the algebraic equation: 3x + 75 = 6x - 30 :glare: It sure gives the correct answers but I'm really curious to see if my son will be able to figure it out on his own with some time... or not! The fractions went much smoother :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Oh, I'm getting better at this stuff! Ok, here's what I did... [3][3][...][3][3][-----75-----] [3][3][...][3][3][3][3][...][3][3] The second one goes 30 longer than the first one. So you know the [3] stuff is 75+30=105. That means there are 35 students (105/3). Then you take 105 + 75 = 180. a) 35 b) 180 Not sure how Singapore does it, but I assume it'd be something resembling that. :) Okay... I can see that now. I had my diagram set up with 75, then the 3s, so I wasn't comparing like things. Cool! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I remember that problem! :lol: Fwiw, I've never really *gotten* the bar method until this year (5A), & suddenly? It's pure genius! I've just taught ds the Algebra where necessary...there was nobody there to tell me that was wrong, lol! This year, though, the bar method is finally easier than the Alg, &...sometimes I can't make the alg work. :svengo: But while I've been having to work harder at teaching/understanding since about 4th g...well...that's so much more fun than teaching addition facts or counting. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Way2blessed Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) here's how we solved it-- |--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---| Showing that we don't know how many students, but that the group got a first sticker, second, and a third, and there were 75 left. Then when he gave out 6 stickers, he had the same amount as he did the first time, but needed 30 more, so |--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---|---30--| |--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--| So,( 75+30)/3=35 in the class. Then we plug the 35 back into the first bar diagram to show that 35+35+35+75=180 stickers. Edited September 22, 2011 by Way2blessed Edited to add parenthesis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Education Explorers Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Me: "So that's how you reach the answer!" I say confidently as I flip to the back to confirm my wizard-like math skills. "Hmmm, that's not the answer the book is giving. I wonder if there's a typo." Son: "So what's the answer?" Me: "Um......" I scramble through my notes wondering where I could have gone wrong, keeping in mind I CAN'T. USE. ALGEBRA. Bar model, bar model bar model!! Son: "You can't do this question either, can you Mom?" Me: "Um....." :001_huh: Deja Vu!!! Sounds like word problems at our house too. They are very challenging for my daughter (and me too)! I haven't thought mathematically in forever (if ever). Never needed to as a lawyer. The hardest part is to keep my daughter's confidence up while tackling a new way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonne Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 LOL! I had trouble w/ that sticker problem, too! Here's the Singapore Math yahoo group. There are some very helpful posters there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 here's how we solved it--|--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---| Showing that we don't know how many students, but that the group got a first sticker, second, and a third, and there were 75 left. Then when he gave out 6 stickers, he had the same amount as he did the first time, but needed 30 more, so |--?--|--?--|--?--|---75---|---30--| |--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--|--?--| So,( 75+30)/3=35 in the class. Then we plug the 35 back into the first bar diagram to show that 35+35+35+75=180 stickers. The only part I am not following here is why you're dividing 75+30 by 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 The only part I am not following here is why you're dividing 75+30 by 3? If you draw the diagram... initially each had 3 stickers... the second time each has 6... but if you write the 6 as 3 & 3, then one set of 3's matches up with the first bar... in the second time, we have a set of 3's that matches with the 75 + 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karensk Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Looking at Way2blessed's bar diagrams: the middle bar diagram's segment, |---75----|--30--|, is the same length as the last bar diagram's segment (at the right end of the bar), |--?--|--?--|--?--| . Therefore, 75+30 = the sum of the three |--?--| segments. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 aha! thanks! got it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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