Giving up punishment

[LittleIzumi]

Thanks for this thread. I was just thinking about some changes I need to make in this direction. I had the best evening with dd after changing my mindset and actions on this topic. :)

[LittleIzumi]

I agree with what you said above. But this list-isn't this where people of Pearl persuasion go, "See? we told you so?" And then get the switch?

 

They are only #2 on the list though :tongue_smilie:

[Joanne]

I agree with what you said above. But this list-isn't this where people of Pearl persuasion go, "See? we told you so?" And then get the switch?

 

Yes.

 

But if they are going to do that, they are going to do that. (as you know), I don't "believe in" spanking as a discipline tool.

 

But "spanking" isn't what I object to with regard to the Pearls. They aren't about spanking; they are steeped heavily in an adversarial, abusive mindset comingled with bad theology. There are several quotes in his short book tying the children's salvation to spanking. :001_huh::confused::glare:

 

Reasonable people, non brainwashed, know that spanking frequently, or spanking for nearly every discipline issue = abuse (even if you don't believe that spanking = abuse automatically).

[justamouse]

Yes.

 

But if they are going to do that, they are going to do that. (as you know), I don't "believe in" spanking as a discipline tool.

 

But "spanking" isn't what I object to with regard to the Pearls. They aren't about spanking; they are steeped heavily in an adversarial, abusive mindset comingled with bad theology. There are several quotes in his short book tying the children's salvation to spanking. :001_huh::confused::glare:

 

Reasonable people, non brainwashed, know that spanking frequently, or spanking for nearly every discipline issue = abuse (even if you don't believe that spanking = abuse automatically).

 

I've never actually read a Pearl book, only the news articles but I see what you're saying.

[Joanne]

I've never actually read a Pearl book, only the news articles but I see what you're saying.

 

I've read TTUAC several times, one of them critically for a research paper. I've also read CTBHH.

 

I agree with your posts in this thread, I hope I don't sound argumentative, because that is not where I am in my head. :)

[justamouse]

I've read TTUAC several times, one of them critically for a research paper. I've also read CTBHH.

 

I agree with your posts in this thread, I hope I don't sound argumentative, because that is not where I am in my head. :)

 

:001_smile: No, I know. I know your stern, "I disagree," voice. :D

[TheAutumnOak]

There's a hundred things that go into it.

 

If your kid is tired and hungry and you take him to Shoprite and he has a meltdown in the cart because you're in there two hours-it's not the kid's fault.

 

If you have to go to the Dr and you're in the waiting room, you forgot a snack, or a book, or SOMETHING for this little person to occupy themselves with and the kid starts to meltdown, it's not the kid's fault. And, unless the child is old enough to read by themselves, realize that you are going to be the main occupation by reading, or playing finger games, or whathave you.

 

Are they fed? Are they warm? Are they too hot? Are they too tired? Is is amazingly boring and long? And then place expectations on them that an ADULT struggles under-it's not the kid's fault.

 

"What is obvious to us is not always obvious to children."

 

SO TRUE.

 

I think, somewhere along the line, we forgot that they need to be TAUGHT. It takes too much time, and we expect them to know it, watch us do it and KNOW.

 

"Go clean your room."

 

Defiance.

 

Well, have they been TAUGHT how to clean their room? Has the parent sat in there with them on an afternoon and said, "Everything has a place, let's put these kitchen toys over here, in this bin. Now you pick up one and place it in," and on and on until the room is clean. And then, do it again another day, until one day, they run in and do it by the time you've reached the top of the stairs.

 

If a parent doesn't *teach* them, how are they supposed to know? Or, has it gotten to the point where it's a disaster, there's mess everywhere and overwhelming to the child? And now the kid is having a melt down and whose fault is it? The parents. They were the adult, they let it get out of control and now the child is made to suffer the parent's lack of diligence. Meltdown and defiance occur. PLease, most adults get overwhelmed when they've let something get out of control and don't know where to start. A child doesn't ahve the self control to know when their room needs to be picked up-only after they've been taught does that come. And self control --hell, how many adults don't have it?

 

Children take TIME.

 

Another post that makes a lot of sense...

[twoforjoy]

I see some of what you're saying justamouse, but I do have some thoughts. :)

 

I don't think normal child behaviors at any age need 'retraining' as much as they need time and maturity. Some (most) behaviors are just normal (annoying) little child behaviors. What a toddler does is not the same, ime, as what as a 7 seven year old does.

 

I know this, but it's so helpful to be reminded.

 

I think one of the reasons I've had so much trouble parenting my DS is that he is so. darn. smart. It's made it incredibly difficult for me to have reasonable, age-appropriate expectations for him. It's so easy to treat my DD, who is 17 months and babbles away with a few recognizable words here and there, like the tiny toddler she is, and so to have reasonable expectations. My DS was having conversations with us at that age. It was really hard to reconcile the fact that this tiny person was talking to us like he was a much older child with the reality that he acted like a tiny toddler.

 

And that's just continued on. He's remained really verbally advanced, while he behaves like a typical--or slightly immature--kid his age. It's hard for me to have realistic expectations for behavior when this kid is talking to me with better logic and understanding than some of my college freshman seem to have but still jumping on the couch, running back and forth across the house, and throwing balls at the ceiling.

[Soror]

I always enjoy reading positive parenting encouragement, lots of good thoughts in here. I've always been anti-spanking but that in itself doesn't get you very far. My son was very challenging and impossible, for him I figured out that it was gluten(celiac) when that was removed he was able to be disciplined until then it was a nightmare. I am thankful that I was anti-spanking then as I can only imagine how far it could have escalated with a kid unable to control himself.

 

I am not perfect though, I've had a few moments, that I'm deeply ashamed of as a mother and some that I'm proud of as well. The past few months I've really tried to put an intense focus on relationships aspect around here. It has gone so far with my daughter who takes after her mother so much and is very sensitive to correction. Having her help me and be involved is great for both of us. I've learned(am learning) to be more patient and cut the criticism. Really it boils down to treating them how I want to be treated and I try hard to think if I am correcting/teaching in a way that I would want to be taught.

 

I do try to maintain fairly high standards as we are surrounded by those who are authoritative besides the fact that I find stricter boundaries and routines means that they thrive.

[LibraryLover]

I absolutely understand this. It takes some mental energy to get the brain to process appropriate childhood behaviors with the maturiy of thought and speech some of these children are able to manage. We just discussed a NOVA documentary, but you jumped off your bureau onto the bed? Really?

 

If that child is a first born, the tendency to scratch your head is even greater.

 

 

I know this, but it's so helpful to be reminded.

 

I think one of the reasons I've had so much trouble parenting my DS is that he is so. darn. smart. It's made it incredibly difficult for me to have reasonable, age-appropriate expectations for him. It's so easy to treat my DD, who is 17 months and babbles away with a few recognizable words here and there, like the tiny toddler she is, and so to have reasonable expectations. My DS was having conversations with us at that age. It was really hard to reconcile the fact that this tiny person was talking to us like he was a much older child with the reality that he acted like a tiny toddler.

 

And that's just continued on. He's remained really verbally advanced, while he behaves like a typical--or slightly immature--kid his age. It's hard for me to have realistic expectations for behavior when this kid is talking to me with better logic and understanding than some of my college freshman seem to have but still jumping on the couch, running back and forth across the house, and throwing balls at the ceiling.

[vlgimmelli]

Wow I am really thankful I stepped upon this thread. I have been going through the same things with my son(12 years old). The more I punish him and take away privileges, the worse his behavior gets and the worse the whole situation gets. Everyone ends up angry, upset and no positive thing comes out of it. Thank you for starting such a wonderful thread. Time to change......for me.

[LittleIzumi]

I absolutely understand this. It takes some mental energy to get the brain to process appropriate childhood behaviors with the maturiy of thought and speech some of these children are able to manage. We just discussed a NOVA documentary, but you jumped off your bureau onto the bed? Really?

 

If that child is a first born, the tendency to scratch your head is even greater.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[JeneralMom]

Rules without a Relationship equals Rebellion.

 

 

:iagree: Love this.

[Peela]

It is this: Rules without a Relationship equals Rebellion. .

 

I love this too- and really it was years ago, here, that I read people talking about the importance of building relationship, and i am very grateful, although I wasnt far off anyway.

 

Another related approach that I am using more nowadays since doing a workshop is Non Violent Communication.

 

Nowadays, and for many months now, I simply ask my kids to do things, instead of telling them. If they dont want to do them for some reason, I listen. If they ask if they can finish the tv program first, I am fine with that. But I ask, not tell. I wish I had started it earlier than I have done.

The truth is is doesn't always mean things get done any better than before- but its definitely not worse....and our relationship is better because I am not trying to force, use my will to control, my kids. I am asking for their cooperation and usually, they give it.

 

And just this week I decided to drop all chores. They weren't consistent with doing them. It was stressful to have to remind them or worse, do them because they had gone out and not done them.

 

I have talked to them and asked them to please, just be part of the family and see what needs doing, and do it. It was scary at first. Really- both kids thought the other one wouldnt do anything and complained to me about it. Then I went away for 2 days and came back..they told me they were impressed that the other had actually done stuff!

SO far, so good....it means they can spontaneously do the dishes even if its not their week. It does something- it makes them feel...good, noble or something, for contributing- instead of just doing what they had to do anyway. Especially when I thank them.

 

We are lucky- past generations didn't have the sorts of communication networks we have, access to information, or psychological research. We can learn from other people and find the best way for us, using so many resources. I think if you can bring up smart, happy, self disciplined, good hearted kids with non- punitive methods.....there is no justification for the types of punitive methods of past generations.

[Ginevra]

We are lucky- past generations didn't have the sorts of communication networks we have, access to information, or psychological research. We can learn from other people and find the best way for us, using so many resources. I think if you can bring up smart, happy, self disciplined, good hearted kids with non- punitive methods.....there is no justification for the types of punitive methods of past generations.

 

:iagree: I think this is true and very important. I don't harbor bitterness for my parents' child rearing methods. I believe they did the best they could with what they knew and what they were trying to accomplish. But when you know better, you do better. Just as we now strap children into car seats for many years in the back seat, while we may not even have had a car seat as a toddler and called dibs on sitting up front, we can improve on our parents' childrearing practices too.

[2squared]

SO far, so good....it means they can spontaneously do the dishes even if its not their week. It does something- it makes them feel...good, noble or something, for contributing- instead of just doing what they had to do anyway. Especially when I thank them.

 

:D We don't have chore lists either, but everyone pitches in to help when we follow our daily routine. Of course, helping isn't an option for my dc since they are firmly in the training stages still and we have a larger family. But, that being said, I noticed that my 9yo has started helping with the dinner routine without being asked and without worrying what everyone else is doing. I love seeing things (some things!) come together.

[leeannpal]

Do what works for your family. That is about the only parenting advice that really works.

[mo2]

:bigear: