WWE's dictation v. "studied" dictation

[creekmom]

When I first started hsing, I was "sold" on the kind of dictation SWB uses in WWE. Although she uses dictation to discuss grammar, punctuation, etc., her purpose seems to be more along the lines of learning to hold large chunks of information in your head long enough to write them all down. The problem my kids have all had with this type of dictation is that they have to stop so often for a misspelled word (which SWB says to correct immediately) or for a missed punctuation mark, that they forget the sentences.

 

So, I've been reading about studied dictation which just seems to make more sense to me. You give the child a copywork passage on Monday. Tuesday -Thursday they copy the passage, studying the spelling/grammar/punctuation, and then on Friday, that passage is dictation. I guess there isn't a lot of memory work involved since they are already familiar with the passage, but my kids already memorize a lot (poetry, speeches, etc.). I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the different types of dictation. Will my kids be missing out on something important if we do the studied instead of SWB's method? Which do you use? What benefits have you seen?

[RainbowSprinkles]

Studied dictation is what I did when I was a student (in Germany). It worked really well for me. I do plan on using studied dictation with my dc, starting in 5th grade. (which is when I started).

 

We did essays for dictation though instead of just single sentences. So you could probably start by doing a sentence and then working your way up.

Edited August 6, 2011 by RainbowSprinkles
More info

[Jim]

The second options sounds a bit like CM. I enjoy reading about those that use her gentle methods.

 

I'm constantly asking myself just how much my ds 10 can memorize. Between WWE, FLL, CC, and the rest (I'd like to start IEW Poetry set) I often wonder what his limit might be. BUt, he constantly surprises me my easily adding new information to memory. I sure wish I could do the same.

 

When my ds 4 start singing CC jingles it just blows me away. He's skip counting, singing history sentences, and listing the Presidents (first and last names in order to Lincoln) without any formal type training, just from listening to CC cds in the van. We try to trick him up on the order of the Presidents but he is quick to correct us, and with authority. Love it.

[chepyl]

I and using dictation sentences that go along with our spelling lists. This week we did list 4 in Spelling Plus and next wee we SIL do the dictation for list 4. It is all words that he should know how to spell. It is for reinforcement of his spelling skills. The sentences are simple and will remain so until he learns more punctuation. The words and sentences get progressively harder. I can write my own sentences if I want to cover a different grammar topic.

 

The idea with this method is to reinforce what they have learned. I don't know how old your kids are, but it is working well for my 5 year old. We started with lists that are too easy so that we can practice our method before we get to the new words.

[Kalmia]

I may be wrong, but isn't one of the benefits of SWB's dictation that it is practice for note taking during lectures, something which studied dictation would not address. Also I believe she intends this form of dictation to assist children with holding thoughts in their head while composing written pieces. The purpose of this kind of dictation is to develop the ability hold the dictation passage (or their own ideas) in their mind while correcting errors. It is a very slow process, be patient. These are on-the-spot skills, not memory work like studied dictation. Depending on the age of your child, it is okay to repeat the dictation passage more times or if they get lost.

[thowell]

I think I remember reading that for the dictation like SWB uses it should be on or even below your child's spelling ability so spelling is not an issue. We do both. We use some studied dictation to reinforce spelling words. This is alot like the process you described where the child has as much time as needed to study the passage. We also use this time to discuss punctuation and grammar. On other days we use SWB"s dictation method. These are passages the girls would already no how to spell and while they are expected to catch the punctuation from the pauses in my voice, we do not discuss that until after the passage is written. Maybe this will help you understand the difference in the processes.

[Heidi]

Yay! I was just thinking about this this morning. :bigear:

[Critterfixer]

I'm using Wheeler's Elementary Speller this year for my second grade boys. One thing that shows up frequently is that a group of lines is given, and the boys write them from memory. I don't use those for copywork, but instead we say the poem for about two days before I ask them to write it from memory. Then, as they remember, I can help them with areas of spelling difficulty.

One of my sons struggles with some auditory issues related to his hFA. Dictation as done in WWE would be torture for him, but he does not struggle when he has been allowed to listen and repeat the selction over a few days time.

[Cosmos]

I was just thinking about this recently myself, as well. It seems like both kinds have benefits. What I'm considering for my 11yo ds is to do a mix of both kinds of dictation, alternating weeks.

 

One week would be "traditional" copywork and dictation, with a couple of days doing straight copywork of passages and then one day of straight dictation of a different passage (no previous studying).

 

The next week would be a Brave Writer style week, using one longer passage for copywork to be studied all week long, culminating with dictation from it at the end of the week (probably not dictation of the whole passage).

[Homemama2]

We do both. Studied dictation is great for spelling, grammar, etc. I don't have mine copy the passage all week. He just studies it for about 10 min. Before he starts, we discuss which words he will need to focus on for spelling and any punctuation that might confuse him. He will usually study the passage 2 or 3 times before saying he is ready for me to dictate it to him. Then I dictate one sentence at a time (only saying it once). We use Spelling Wisdom for this from SCM and that is how she does it. I think Ruth Beechick and others do studied dictation a little differently (using it as copywork first etc).

 

I also use WWE, but I'm not too hung up on them getting EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. when they do the dictation. Like some one else mentioned, I think the main benefit of WWE dictation is to get the chunk of info in their head so they can remember their own thoughts long enough to write them down, or to be able to take notes from a lecture.

[PeterPan]

Mary, Kfamily was explaining in another thread studied dictation like what they apparently do in France. I just made my photocopies to prep for our year of it. You give them a 2-page spread to study and they are responsible to be ready to write anything from it from dictation later in the week. I didn't like the studied dictation (of the exact sentences that would be required) I did with my dd when she was younger, because I felt like it went in her short-term memory. I'm hoping this will work around that issue. I'm excited because I was able to use a lot of our history and reading books for the year. I set it up to alternate with a history text (American Nation by Garraty), which will also work on reading comprehension and more mature sentence structure. I photocopied the two-page spreads so she can mark them up with colored felt markers as part of her preparation. I think it will be good.

 

BTW, there are other ways to work on working memory besides dication. If your issue is working memory (their RAM, how much they can hold in their heads while getting stuff done), you can work on it with games, software, etc. It doesn't have to be just (unpleasant) dictation. If you have kids where a lot of the elements are hard, it's good to break it up. You don't want ALL the elements of the task to be hard, or it gets overwhelming. You set it up where there's just *one* stretch element.

[Critterfixer]

Mary, Kfamily was explaining in another thread studied dictation like what they apparently do in France. I just made my photocopies to prep for our year of it. You give them a 2-page spread to study and they are responsible to be ready to write anything from it from dictation later in the week. I didn't like the studied dictation (of the exact sentences that would be required) I did with my dd when she was younger, because I felt like it went in her short-term memory. I'm hoping this will work around that issue. I'm excited because I was able to use a lot of our history and reading books for the year. I set it up to alternate with a history text (American Nation by Garraty), which will also work on reading comprehension and more mature sentence structure. I photocopied the two-page spreads so she can mark them up with colored felt markers as part of her preparation. I think it will be good.

 

This sounds very interesting. I actually like this a lot. I couldn't use this right now, my boys are too young, but I really think that this would be helpful for both of them when they get a little older.

[PeterPan]

This sounds very interesting. I actually like this a lot. I couldn't use this right now, my boys are too young, but I really think that this would be helpful for both of them when they get a little older.

 

I think you could--you'd just select easier texts. For instance at that age I'd use children's books on science, Little Bear, Little House on the Prairie, anything at that interesting level that is a fuzz below their reading level. In fact I did quite a bit of regular dictation at that age. I think we used a lot of Narnia and Pooh.

 

BTW, here's a link to that other thread. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2919398&highlight=studied#post2919398

[creekmom]

I think you could--you'd just select easier texts. For instance at that age I'd use children's books on science, Little Bear, Little House on the Prairie, anything at that interesting level that is a fuzz below their reading level. In fact I did quite a bit of regular dictation at that age. I think we used a lot of Narnia and Pooh.

 

BTW, here's a link to that other thread. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2919398&highlight=studied#post2919398

 

 

Thank you for the link! I read a little about French dictation in Bravewriter. I'm eager to see how it will work!

[Guest mnchristmas]

Every day, my oldest daughter struggles with dictation - she just isn't able to do it. I'm at the end of my rope. She tends to get the gist of what was said, but can not do verbatim. She is a great memorizer - can memorize chapters of the Bible that are 30+ verses long. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[kwickimom]

I was using WWE dictation and my dd could not do it. She could do simple sentences and that was it. We couldn't progress. She would end up in tears so we quit.

We are doing HOD this year and doing studied dictation and it has taken the pressure off. She is doing really well with it.

 

I never understood memorizing a passage EXACTLY to get ready for notetaking. You paraphrase when you take notes, so I do not see how memorizing a line of a passage and writing it perfectly helps in that area. I can read a sentence and my dd can write down the gist of it no problem. I actually think that narration helps more with notetaking than memory dictation does. She hears a passage and writes down the main idea and a few important details from it. This is what you do when taking notes.

[lamolina]

I never understood memorizing a passage EXACTLY to get ready for notetaking. You paraphrase when you take notes, so I do not see how memorizing a line of a passage and writing it perfectly helps in that area. I can read a sentence and my dd can write down the gist of it no problem. I actually think that narration helps more with notetaking than memory dictation does. She hears a passage and writes down the main idea and a few important details from it. This is what you do when taking notes.

 

this is exactly what I have been thinking! Surely there must be more reasoning behind dictating the long passages other than preparation for note taking!? I don't remember ever trying to write down a complete paragraph from any professor, you just summarize and jot down the important points.

[MerryAtHope]

When I first started hsing, I was "sold" on the kind of dictation SWB uses in WWE. Although she uses dictation to discuss grammar, punctuation, etc., her purpose seems to be more along the lines of learning to hold large chunks of information in your head long enough to write them all down. The problem my kids have all had with this type of dictation is that they have to stop so often for a misspelled word (which SWB says to correct immediately) or for a missed punctuation mark, that they forget the sentences.

 

When I do this type of dictation, the sentences are not so difficult that they couldn't spell all of the words. Maybe the sentences you are using are too difficult? Or maybe you could do some pre-teaching on individual words that you know will give them trouble before you dictate the sentences. Another thing you can do is to have trouble words written down on a board or on their paper ahead of time.

 

So, I've been reading about studied dictation which just seems to make more sense to me. You give the child a copywork passage on Monday. Tuesday -Thursday they copy the passage, studying the spelling/grammar/punctuation, and then on Friday, that passage is dictation. I guess there isn't a lot of memory work involved since they are already familiar with the passage, but my kids already memorize a lot (poetry, speeches, etc.). I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the different types of dictation. Will my kids be missing out on something important if we do the studied instead of SWB's method? Which do you use? What benefits have you seen?

 

I like studied dictation for things like teaching literary styles too, and I have used it to focus on different things. One variety was to print up the passage with no punctuation and have them punctuate the whole thing. You do need to make sure to do some pre-teaching of the passage, especially if you have a child who is prone to copying letter by letter instead of thinking in terms of sounds and syllable chunks--otherwise the act of copying will actually work against spelling success. You want the child to say sounds while copying (out loud if necessary, but some do this in their heads), to reinforce how spelling works. If they are copying strings of letters as if words are phone numbers, then it can backfire.

 

Both styles of dictation have merit in my view, I just focus on different things when I do them.

 

Merry :-)

[Beth in SW WA]

 

I never understood memorizing a passage EXACTLY to get ready for notetaking. You paraphrase when you take notes, so I do not see how memorizing a line of a passage and writing it perfectly helps in that area.

 

:iagree:

 

WWE dictations are fruitful for some students. My younger dds love dictations and actually request them. Older dc never did dictations but are excellent note-takers and writers with prompt recall. TPS requires TONS of notetaking in their history classes. Dd (then 13) wrote pages and pages of notes from lectures (online) and was tested on those notes (a skill I did not master until late high school/college).

 

We will continue with dictations in WWE since my younger dds enjoy it. If students 'hated' it -- as some do according to posters here -- I would skip it and keep going with other writing methods. Not worth the battle, imho.

[LivingHope]

I prefer to combine the two methods of dictation.

 

I will give my children a mysterious dictation passage. We then correct missing words, spelling, punctuation. We discuss the passage and point out anything of literary interest. The following day, the children and I restudy this now familar passage, and I dictate it when we feel confident that they can reproduce it with minimal errors.

 

So, it is a two day process for us...from the unknown to the known. The first day I am very relaxed about the details because it is mainly about writing down what is heard (SWB dictation method). Using the same passage, the second day is mainly about practicing spelling and structure (CM studied dictation method).