Skipping grades

[lisamarie]

My DS started out in PS--he did a year of young 5s (for summer/fall birthdays who need an extra year before starting K--DS did this for purely social reasons). He did 2 months of kindergarten before we pulled him out because he was so far ahead academically. The plan was to HS him 3 years worth of work in 2 calendar years and then have him reenter school a grade ahead (his true for age grade).

 

He will start PS again in the fall. Today he went to take his placement testing to give the school a benchmark of where he is. He's entering 3rd grade on the very young side (he won't turn 8 until Oct). They gave us a number for where they tested and a chart for the average score of all kids tested in 2008 for fall, mid year, and spring semester (they test 3 times a year). For math, DS placed into fall of 7th grade. Reading fall of 5th grade. Language arts fall of 3rd grade. Very lopsided. But the scores I care about most are math and reading.

 

When I went to pick DS up, his Y5 teacher was standing outside with him. I talked to her all the time when he was in school, so I asked her if they would even be able to work with DS with his scores. If the school is even equipped to challenge him to that degree. She said a little, but not 7th grade level.

 

Now I am wondering if we shouldn't just skip him ahead to 4th grade despite his age. Socially, he is still immature. My suspicion is that he has a touch of aspergers or something similar and he is just not all that socially aware. I never knew what 2E was until recently and I started researching it and can see that in my DS. He has 2 cousins on the spectrum from 2 different families on my mother's side, so it obviously runs in my family.

 

I guess what I'm asking is if you would keep your child in the age-appropriate grade and hope for the best or if you would have them skip a grade since they have demonstrated they are 2 grades ahead in work (which I think is the requirement for skipping--with some serious LA catch-up). Knowing socially they are already behind for 3rd grade. And DH and I have discussed pulling him to continue HSing if after a few months the school decides they just can't work with him.

Edited July 27, 2011 by lisamarie

[scrapbookbuzz]

My first question to you is, why have you decided to not continue homeschooling with him?

 

The problem with putting him ahead academically, even though he'll be able to handle the schoolwork, is he will be mocked/picked on by his classmates. I wish it wasn't true, but it is. Here because he's young.

 

The challenge with keeping him in a class where he fits due to age is that, again, he will be mocked/picked on by his classmates. Here because he's "different" due to being ahead academically.

 

My son has not yet been tested but he just turned 7, has been doing 3rd grade math since last spring, and is reading at a 5th grade level, at least. He was in the public school for a short period of time last fall but, because of his academic prowess, he found it difficult to make friends, and was made fun of.

 

I highly encourage to you to re-think putting him in public school and to truly and prayerfully, consider continuing to homeschool him.

 

PM me anytime for support/questions/etc.

[EKS]

I wouldn't do a grade skip based on test scores alone. Do you know what test they're using for placement?

 

Far more helpful than test scores is how he is actually achieving day to day. What level math is he using at home? If he has already done 3rd grade math then maybe subject acceleration in math is in order depending on how similar the school's math program is to what he has been using.

 

But I would not do a full grade skip to 4th for a few reasons. The language arts score places him in fall of 3rd grade. Writing becomes more and more important in each successive grade level, and if writing is not an area of strength, he won't be prepared for the writing in 4th grade. And remember that LA skills pervade the other subject areas--in PS they do a lot of writing, even if it is just filling in worksheets. Also, you mention that his social skills are lacking. Again, he will be with children who are up to two years older than he is, and if he is socially immature, this will be painfully apparent.

[regentrude]

What are your school options? How good are the schools, what reputation do they have? Reason I ask this:

We decided against a grade skip for our very accelerated DD in elementary school simply because our elementary school was great, and our middle school had an abysmal reputation - we wanted to save skipping for middle school to shorten time in there.

As it turned out, middle school was so bad that we began homeschooling in 6thgrade....

[wapiti]

:iagree:

 

It sounds like it was the MAP test. I would not grade-skip based on that test. The grade levels on that test are not a placement for curriculum purposes but rather an indication that your student's score was similar to the average student's score of that grade level.

 

For placement, I would focus on where your child is academically. In particular, for a skip in a traditional PS I'd be concerned about keeping up with output in the language arts area. I'd also want to be sure math content wasn't neglected in the skip.

 

Unfortunately, PS is not a place for finding a custom-fit education (unlike, say, hs-ing :D). It's hard to find the right pace and depth, on the one hand, with the right output level, on the other hand.

[Jenny in Florida]

And I don't want you to feel like you're being attacked.

 

But, honestly, I wouldn't put that child in school.

 

I have two kids who were pretty asynchronous when they were younger. At one point, when she was about seven, my daughter was doing curriculum/workbooks that ranged in grade level from one to eight. And, at home, we could do that.

 

In school? I doubt it would happen.

 

Another problem I know many gifted kids run into is that grade skipping is only a temporary solution. Most of these kids not only know more when they begin a grade, but also learn faster than the other kids in the class. So, you take a really bright first grader, skip him to second grade. At first, it's a challenge, and all is well. However, a few months down the line, he's bored and un-challenged again, because he's still learning the new information more quickly than the other second graders.

 

Obviously, I don't know your child, and I don't know what testing was done. And, of course, it's not my child.

 

However, I doubt public school (or school at all) would be my first choice if I were in your situation, unless there were som very pressing reason to put him there.

[lisamarie]

It was the intent all along to put him back in school. Regardless, I was flat out against it 6 months ago, but went along with my DH's wishes. In the time since we enrolled him in school, things have changed here drastically, and I can see that the decision is the right one even if I hate it. My DH is going to law school in the spring while still working full time. I am realistic. I would not survive with my sanity if I tried to continue homeschooling my kids with my DH gone all day and every evening for the next 3 years. Plus, I will need to go back to work part time to help pay for his tuition when my youngest starts school. If our only option for DS to get a good education is to continue HSing him, then we'll make it work. But we are going to try school first.

 

My DS took the NWEA test today (Northwestern Evaluation Association). I am not basing it solely on this. He also took the ITBS test this spring and pretty much maxed out the test (end of 2nd/fall of 3rd grade level) in math and reading with a 99th and 97th percentile, but only in the 87th percentile for LA with spelling being in the 54th.

 

He is halfway through saxon 54 and SM 3a. Hence why his placing into 7th grade math floored me. He's not that far ahead IMO. But apparently he is that far ahead of the kids in that school. They use Think Math at the school until Junior High where they use Holt Math.

 

He did CLE LA 2 and WWE2, plus R&S Spelling 2 this year. He did FLL1 last year. But I never made him write a lot of papers--one page paper a week was all. Along with workbooks.

 

My hope is that once DH is done with law school, we'll be able to afford private school where his education can be a lot more tailored to him.

[scrapbookbuzz]

It was the intent all along to put him back in school. Regardless, I was flat out against it 6 months ago, but went along with my DH's wishes. In the time since we enrolled him in school, things have changed here drastically, and I can see that the decision is the right one even if I hate it. My DH is going to law school in the spring while still working full time. I am realistic. I would not survive with my sanity if I tried to continue homeschooling my kids with my DH gone all day and every evening for the next 3 years. Plus, I will need to go back to work part time to help pay for his tuition when my youngest starts school. If our only option for DS to get a good education is to continue HSing him, then we'll make it work. But we are going to try school first.

 

My DS took the NWEA test today (Northwestern Evaluation Association). I am not basing it solely on this. He also took the ITBS test this spring and pretty much maxed out the test (end of 2nd/fall of 3rd grade level) in math and reading with a 99th and 97th percentile, but only in the 87th percentile for LA with spelling being in the 54th.

 

He is halfway through saxon 54 and SM 3a. Hence why his placing into 7th grade math floored me. He's not that far ahead IMO. But apparently he is that far ahead of the kids in that school. They use Think Math at the school until Junior High where they use Holt Math.

 

He did CLE LA 2 and WWE2, plus R&S Spelling 2 this year. He did FLL1 last year. But I never made him write a lot of papers--one page paper a week was all. Along with workbooks.

 

My hope is that once DH is done with law school, we'll be able to afford private school where his education can be a lot more tailored to him.

 

 

I'll be praying for you, as you have some tough decisions ahead! As to the private school, I don't know how they are where you are, but here, while having the benefit of having smaller classes (sometimes), they still can really only teach to the "average" child, which your child obviously is not! :D

[wapiti]

My DS took the NWEA test today (Northwestern Evaluation Association). I am not basing it solely on this. He also took the ITBS test this spring and pretty much maxed out the test (end of 2nd/fall of 3rd grade level) in math and reading with a 99th and 97th percentile, but only in the 87th percentile for LA with spelling being in the 54th.

 

The NWEA is the MAP test. if they did not give you the chart to keep i have a link to it someplace. Here is one for putting in the score and correlating it to specific curricula components - that might help you http://www.powayusd.com/projects/edtechcentral/lladder/Default.asp

 

He is halfway through saxon 54 and SM 3a. Hence why his placing into 7th grade math floored me. He's not that far ahead IMO. But apparently he is that far ahead of the kids in that school. They use Think Math at the school until Junior High where they use Holt Math.

 

He did CLE LA 2 and WWE2, plus R&S Spelling 2 this year. He did FLL1 last year. But I never made him write a lot of papers--one page paper a week was all. Along with workbooks.

 

This is precisely my point though - he did not "place" into 7th grade for math even though his score may be in line with what an average 7th grader scored. He is halfway through Saxon 5/4 and SM 3a - that is where he is. Probably he could accelerate through the math curriculum faster than an average student but the test score does not mean he's ready for 7th grade math. (ETA: as an example dd's MAP score for Language Usage at the end of third grade was similar to an average 11th grader's score at the 51st percentile - that doesn't mean she was ready for high school grammar LOL - i pay closer attention to percentiles with age-mates than i do to the grade level comparison)

 

As for the DH and law school - it would be very hard to work while going to law school but watch out for how much he might be working when he's an attorney (ask me how i know :glare:; i was one once upon a time; DH has been travelling most of the last month and though we could afford private school at the moment there is not one that suits my needs for my dd so we are hs-ing; my four boys will stay at a public charter montessori which fortunately allows enough individual flexibility in levels - for now). Best of luck to him - first year grades matter A LOT.

 

ETA: obviously there will be issues with placing your ds no matter what grade level they put him in. :grouphug: and good luc woring through that

 

ETA again because i can't edit my posts enough LOL - i meant to reiterate placing on where he is in the LA and math curricula the school is using rather than based on these tests. Maybe see whether the school can dig up a placement test from their specific math curriculum.

Edited July 27, 2011 by wapiti

[kiana]

Scoring 7th grade usually does not mean that he has learned 7th grade math. It means that he has answered the questions he was given as well as a 7th grader would have. In other words -- he has learned what he has learned very well, but putting him in a 7th grade math book would be inappropriate.

 

The language arts skills at a 3rd grade level indicate that a skip to 4th would be sub-optimal. Even in math, the necessary output level will increase as the grade level increases. His reading on the 5th grade level is good -- but to be *placed* higher he would have to produce the output as well.

 

Opinion: I would afterschool in math if at all possible, and keep him reading good books on his own, but I would not place him in 4th grade. You really don't want to take a bright little kid and move him up to where he feels behind. Challenged, yes, but not *behind*.

[Crimson Wife]

Given that you need to resume paid employment, I would try to work with the school to put him in 3rd and then have him do an independent study pull-out for math. EPGY Open Enrollment is relatively inexpensive for the district and if you get him an IEP for the Asperger's, you can specify that be in there.

[Carpe]

I agree with everyone.

 

It would be best for him if you could continue homeschooling him, however, because you will be sending him to PS, 3rd grade would be a better fit socially and probably academically (because of LA).

 

There's no reason his placement cannot be reevaluated at the end of the year. If he's doing well socially but is bored academically, afterschooling might be a good choice. If he's doing well socially and academically, nothing extra needs to be done. If he's doing poorly socially and is bored academically, then there is an issue that needs to be addressed either by a grade skip, homeschooling, or something else entirely. The issue is, of course, that you don't know which it will be until you try it.

[wapiti]

Given that you need to resume paid employment, I would try to work with the school to put him in 3rd and then have him do an independent study pull-out for math. EPGY Open Enrollment is relatively inexpensive for the district and if you get him an IEP for the Asperger's, you can specify that be in there.

 

:iagree: this is a good idea. I might also inquire whether he could be subject-accelerated in math by visiting a higher grade level classroom at math time.

[LittleIzumi]

I don't think a grade skip when he's already emotionally immature for his current grade is a healthy idea. I would talk to the school psych & see what his options are first. Perhaps they can pull him for the higher level math class, for example. I also wanted to say that you can HS while dh is working F/T and in school all evening & some weekends (that's what I'm doing now);). Hopefully the school psych will have some good options for you.

[lisamarie]

If he's doing poorly socially and is bored academically, then there is an issue that needs to be addressed either by a grade skip, homeschooling, or something else entirely. The issue is, of course, that you don't know which it will be until you try it.

 

This is my guess of how this year will play out. But I'm praying otherwise. He will be in an all boys classroom (which is why we chose this school vs our very good local school--DD will be in an all girls classroom), so I'm hoping it will help him at least socially.

[lisamarie]

I also wanted to say that you can HS while dh is working F/T and in school all evening & some weekends (that's what I'm doing now);).

 

I could for my DS. Not so much my girls. Which is why my DS was HSed this year while DD went to school. He is very easy to school while his sisters are not. Not even a tiny bit. Not even just doing 15 minutes a day of math this summer. You'd think I was asking her to do calculus instead of 1+4=5 (which is below her abilities).

[LittleIzumi]

I could for my DS. Not so much my girls. Which is why my DS was HSed this year while DD went to school. He is very easy to school while his sisters are not. Not even a tiny bit. Not even just doing 15 minutes a day of math this summer. You'd think I was asking her to do calculus instead of 1+4=5 (which is below her abilities).

 

We have had those times. :glare:

 

 

I resorted to bribery.

[LittleIzumi]

I could for my DS. Not so much my girls. Which is why my DS was HSed this year while DD went to school. He is very easy to school while his sisters are not. Not even a tiny bit. Not even just doing 15 minutes a day of math this summer. You'd think I was asking her to do calculus instead of 1+4=5 (which is below her abilities).

 

Also, could you keep up with him HSing and his sisters in PS, if it came to that again?

[boscopup]

I don't think I'd grade skip him either.

 

My son was in a similar position. In first grade, he was well above the rest of the class in math and reading. His writing was at-grade-level. That's his weakest subject because of the physical act of writing (he dictates very nice sentences that always make me think SWB's examples in SOTW are awfully choppy :lol:). When I pulled him out of the middle of first grade, some moms asked why I didn't just grade skip him. Well, first, he does better with kids a year younger than him, so sticking him in the 2nd grade class would be a bad move socially (oh, and he was in a class room that was almost all boys, and that was awful - can you say ROWDY?). Second, his reading level wasn't 2nd grade level... it was 4th-5th grade level. He used the second grade reading textbook in K (when his wonderful teacher attempted to challenge him at least a little bit). So reading-wise, he was still going to be bored. In math, he had not learned 2nd grade math yet (though he'd figured out multiplication and division, he didn't know his facts and such), so he would have been fine at first, but he learns much quicker than the average 2nd grader. In fact, I pulled him out of school and did MM 1B, and we're about to finish 3B next month. So he did 5 semesters worth of math in 9 months. He would have been bored in math yet again in a 2nd grade classroom. The last problem was the writing output requiremet. Given that he was at grade level for writing, he wouldn't have been able to write as much as they expected (and this school used journaling and other creative writing a lot :glare:). His hand probably would have literally fallen off. :tongue_smilie:

 

Btw, this was a private school. This private school had LESS resources for a gifted student than a public school typically has, because there is no gifted program, there is one class per grade usually, and they have limited materials from upper classes to pass down. The teachers did what they could for DS, but they had several other students to take care of, some of which were struggling and needed more help. I afterschooled for a bit, then decided that it would be better to homeschool, so here we are.

 

I agree that sticking your DDs in school and just HS'ing your DS would be a good idea if this school doesn't pan out.

 

Oh, and I find it easier to homeschool and take care of the kids when DH isn't home as much. I can stick to my routine better. Just stick the kids in bed at 7pm so you have your quiet mommy time. :D

[Runningmom80]

I agree, I wouldn't grade skip in that situation. I'd see if he can get subject acceleration.

 

 

School may be an uphill battle at times. He sounds like a square peg, like my DS. :D

[morgan]

As someone that skipped a grade, I think the pros and cons should be heavily weighed. Moving up a grade has a lot of social consequences, but as pointed out, will probably not solve the issue of being really advanced in one subject.

 

I would try to get a pull-out situation or tutor for math. If that isn't an option, I would continue to homeschool or afterschool, at least in math.

 

Good luck.

[Iucounu]

I would recommend that any parent considering a grade skip read "A Nation Deceived", which has a lot of information on research and misconceptions about acceleration:

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/nation_deceived/

 

The Iowa Acceleration Scale (IAS) is probably the single most widely used assessment tool for aiding decisions on whether to skip.

http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Resources/IAS.aspx

 

I would personally strongly consider a grade skip in your situation (ETA: if the MAP scores or other evidence warrant, keeping in mind what others have said about interpreting the scores). Working through the IAS might be very helpful, as it contains consideration of social/emtional factors as well as academic ones, and is intended to balance everything in a useful way. Otherwise, one might be unintentionally placing too much emphasis on one factor out of fear and/or lack of experience. You can probably locate some version of the IAS at a library.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Iucounu

[Donna]

I will let you know that the MAP test will not tell you the whole story about your son even though it is what many schools use for placement of students. I think one test given at one time will never tell you what a child is capable of...some may score lower than they are capable of and others may have a good day and score higher.

 

When my oldest entered school as an 8th grader he took the MAP test. It took him all of about 20 minutes to take the test and he tested into gifted language arts but not gifted math at the school.

 

This was a child who had already taken Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 so the only thing I could think of was that he hadn't done 7th/8th grade math in about 3 years or he made dumb mistakes...anyway it was a huge mix-up with the person testing him saying he did make the cutoff for gifted math (which was Algebra 1 in 8th grade so pretty much review for him anyway) and the anti-homeschool principal saying he didn't.

 

I went over her head to the superintendent and had him placed in the Algebra 1 class. He ended up with the highest grade in his class...average of 97 for the year. So much for the predictive ability of the MAP test.

 

I would go with your gut on this one and not so much with the scores on the test. If you think socially he would have a hard time, maybe staying with age-peers would be the best fit and seeing about having an evaluation and IEP done for the Aspergers symptoms with accommodations for his advanced areas. It is always possible to afterschool if all else fails.

[jenbrdsly]

I taught 3rd grade for two years, and 3rd/4th for three years. There is a HUGE social jump between third and fourth, but I think it is a bigger issue for girls than it is for boys. On a side note, I also once had a child who accelerated mid-year, so that is always an option too.

I would suggest starting out with third grade, but immediately scheduling a meeting for the third week of school. These meetings are called different things in different states. In CA, they used to be called "Student Success Team" meetings. You would want the third grade teacher, a fourth grade teacher, and possibly the principal there." At the meeting all of the people (parents included) would review the test scores, any student portfolio work you brought in, and the behavioral observations of the third grade teacher.

Then, like Crimsonwife suggested, you would want to create an academic plan for math, or whatever. Maybe your child would go up to the fourth or fifth grade class for math each day, etc. Or, maybe three weeks in, everyone would agree that fourth grade was the way to go.

 

Anyhow, you have a big decision. Good luck!