Stossel's "The College Scam" includes

[Miss Marple]

this link to the Thiel Fellowship. I had not heard of this before and, boy, I was totally wowed by the kids who received it.

 

I agree that college may not be worth it to these types of students, but they are also a very small percentage of the population. These kids would have succeeded anywhere! They show drive, determination, obviously high IQs, and they were already on their way to high levels of achievement even before quitting college.

 

I do agree with his assertion that a college student may not be getting what he/she paid for. I had some horrible professors and my sons have had some as well. And the debt question is certainly valid. But in the end, for the average student, I think that the benefits of a college degree outweigh the detriments.

 

Unfortunately I live in an area where many homeschoolers use these whiz-kids stories to support their assertion that their average student doesn't need to go to college. And they are usually able to sell that to their kids who don't find out it doesn't work for them until much later in life (usually after marriage and a child or two).

 

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/07/06/college-scam/?test=faces

[Jane in NC]

Admittedly I am tired of this recent trend of college bashing. Frankly I had a hard time reading past this line of the article:

 

The research is often on obscure topics for journals nobody reads.

 

 

Well yeah. Scientific and Mathematical journals are not intended for public consumption. Most people lack the educational backgrounds to understand what the top people in these fields are doing. Does that invalidate them? Research journals are not intended to be the equivalent of People magazine.

 

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

If anything, the article reveals that Mr. Stossel did not take advantage of his educational opportunities which I think is darn shame. Too bad he took one of those precious spots at Princeton when perhaps another student could have benefited.

 

It is hot and I am grumpy.

 

Signing off,

Jane

 

P.S. I wonder if the authors of all of these recent college bashing articles are sending their own children to college? Hmmmm....Maybe they just don't want our smarty pants kids competing with their little darlings. ;)

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

 

 

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

 

 

Grants and investors and shoestring startups. :D

[Jane in NC]

Grants and investors and shoestring startups. :D

 

You make it sound easy.

 

I write grant applications for a non-profit and know how hard it is to come by every penny.

 

So how does your average high schooler meet these investors?

[Spy Car]

Admittedly I am tired of this recent trend of college bashing. Frankly I had a hard time reading past this line of the article:

 

 

 

Well yeah. Scientific and Mathematical journals are not intended for public consumption. Most people lack the educational backgrounds to understand what the top people in these fields are doing. Does that invalidate them? Research journals are not intended to be the equivalent of People magazine.

 

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

If anything, the article reveals that Mr. Stossel did not take advantage of his educational opportunities which I think is darn shame. Too bad he took one of those precious spots at Princeton when perhaps another student could have benefited.

 

It is hot and I am grumpy.

 

Signing off,

Jane

 

P.S. I wonder if the authors of all of these recent college bashing articles are sending their own children to college? Hmmmm....Maybe they just don't want our smarty pants kids competing with their little darlings. ;)

 

:iagree:

 

Bill

[Julie in MN]

Well yeah. Scientific and Mathematical journals are not intended for public consumption. Most people lack the educational backgrounds to understand what the top people in these fields are doing. Does that invalidate them? Research journals are not intended to be the equivalent of People magazine.

I agree!

 

P.S. I wonder if the authors of all of these recent college bashing articles are sending their own children to college? Hmmmm....Maybe they just don't want our smarty pants kids competing with their little darlings. ;)

 

Don't forget that Stossel comes from the way Libertarian / no government / spend your own money instead of taxing others point of view. But it is always interesting to find out if folks practice what they preach :)

 

Julie

[Caroline]

You make it sound easy.

 

I write grant applications for a non-profit and know how hard it is to come by every penny.

 

So how does your average high schooler meet these investors?

 

Didn't Mark Zuckerberg meet them by attending Harvard for a couple of years?

 

And I also agree with your other post.

[Miss Marple]

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

This is precisely what I thought as well. While I've enjoyed so many of Stossel's programs, this particular viewpoint has been so detrimental in the lives of so many of the homeschoolers I know. And the really sad thing is that they will now quote Stossel without thinking through the the whole scenario. Most of the students listed already had start-up businesses or were already college grads albeit at age 14 ;). One cannot apply those students' experiences across the board. The average student is still average and has to prove himself.

 

ETA: And certainly our average students would NOT be in the running for the $100,000 scholarship!

Edited July 7, 2011 by CynthiaOK

[Tokyomarie]

I agree!

Don't forget that Stossel comes from the way Libertarian / no government / spend your own money instead of taxing others point of view. But it is always interesting to find out if folks practice what they preach :)

 

Julie

 

Someone who is very close to someone I am close to seems to have developed these views. It will be interesting to see how he feels when he is in his 40s & 50s, after 20 more years of work & a child or two who is about to enter the adult world.

 

He does have a degree, feels it was a waste of his time & money, and encouraged the person I love dearly to ditch the college life. That person ultimately finished a degree, though is now working in an entrepeneurial venture with person #1. I am interested to see how this venture works out over the long haul. But, these folks do have college degrees and, I'm sure have learned some important things in the process that may contribute to their success as entrepeneurs. I doubt they could have done what they are doing as 18yos fresh out of high school studies.

[creekland]

Admittedly I am tired of this recent trend of college bashing.

...

 

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

If anything, the article reveals that Mr. Stossel did not take advantage of his educational opportunities which I think is darn shame. Too bad he took one of those precious spots at Princeton when perhaps another student could have benefited.

 

It is hot and I am grumpy.

 

Signing off,

Jane

 

P.S. I wonder if the authors of all of these recent college bashing articles are sending their own children to college? Hmmmm....Maybe they just don't want our smarty pants kids competing with their little darlings. ;)

 

:iagree: And I'm especially curious about your ps.

 

With most selective college admission rates going down lately (meaning more applicants), it seems not many are hopping on the new bandwagon. I think seeing so many hit ceilings without degrees is speaking louder to people IRL.

 

That said, I still agree with those who suggest not getting into high debt for a degree (but not necessarily with those who advocate no debt).

[Tarreymere]

For us, the important thing we want to instill in our children is that idea that they can succeed 'anywhere'. I don't want to raise a herd of sheep that plod off to college simply because it is the expected next step. We have found that by challenging the kids to find or make their own opportunities to earn money during childhood, and by having the expectation that they will find or create their own opportunities for a future that our kids are a lot less inclined to consider college necessary and yet so far five are successful (one college grad) and one is on the edge of the nest about to leave (four more at home). I hope we helped them learn to be more confident and more willing to take risks, I know that we have influenced them to be less likely to prefer being employees of someone else. Or maybe our whole family is just naturally pigheaded and won't take direction well. :glare:

 

This doesn't mean that these adults are not educated, all but one are avid readers and don't just read junk fiction. They are curious and engaged in the world around them. They each have individual interests that they have pursued and continue to pursue. They have lifestyles and income levels they have chosen. None are unhappy or kicking themselves because they feel they don't earn enough and the one college grad works in her field and pays her student loan without feeling she was 'ripped off'. FYI, she doesn't bring home the highest paycheck either or live the most materialistic lifestyle. My SAHM stepdaughter is the one who is most concerned with having what her friends and neighbors have. She is also currently contemplating starting a home health agency (she has experience working independently as a CNA for hire following a year long employment as a CNA in a nursing home) and has a business plan and an attorney, ect.

 

I'm lucky that most of my kids are intelligent. I've tried to instill a work ethic in all of them and I've encouraged them to think deeply about the 'big questions'. We've not 'expected' college, but we have expected clear, independent, responsible decison-making and the ability to find or make opportunities to pursue whatever direction their talents and inclinations led them to. We have tried to model that learning new things is a pleasant hobby and one that we enjoy. It seems to be working. Even if I don't understand exactly what they are talking about sometimes (especially the one who is 'into' biofuels and alternative energy- his lab scares me).

 

ETA: Yeah, we are Libertarians, you guessed it. And the biofuels kid actually has investors that he found on his own. The home health agency kid has been saving up for her agency out of her own earnings.......want me to go on? It isn't impossible, if my kids can do it I'm sure yours can too.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Rainefox

[FaithManor]

Admittedly I am tired of this recent trend of college bashing. Frankly I had a hard time reading past this line of the article:

 

Well yeah. Scientific and Mathematical journals are not intended for public consumption. Most people lack the educational backgrounds to understand what the top people in these fields are doing. Does that invalidate them? Research journals are not intended to be the equivalent of People magazine.

 

I am all for entrepreneurship but I have asked a question repeatedly and I have never received an answer: How does the average high school graduate find the capital to establish a business unless he is born into it? Banks are not opening their arms to loan money to small businesses in general, let alone an unproved business.

 

If anything, the article reveals that Mr. Stossel did not take advantage of his educational opportunities which I think is darn shame. Too bad he took one of those precious spots at Princeton when perhaps another student could have benefited.

 

It is hot and I am grumpy.

 

Signing off,

Jane

 

P.S. I wonder if the authors of all of these recent college bashing articles are sending their own children to college? Hmmmm....Maybe they just don't want our smarty pants kids competing with their little darlings. ;)

 

 

Jane is right! In our area, banks will not loan money to start a business unless the proposal includes a proprietor with a four-year business degree plus at least 20% of the needed start-up costs to self-invest. The reality is that in this day and age, operating a business and following the law, best business accounting standards, OSCHA mandates, etc. is FAR more complicated than it was 30 or 40 years ago. My dad started a successful business right out of a four year stint in the Air Force (he was 22 at the time) and even he will tell kids today, "You can't do what I did. You just can't work 80 hrs. a week trying to get your business up and operating and still learn all of the business management knowledge at the same time. If you hire a business manager to run your operation so you can just deal with customers, making product, or whatever, you have a major risk because the person running your business knows more about it than you ever will and that's especially true when it comes to THE MONEY."

 

So, if my dad, 40 + years later is saying, you need to go to college in order to even think about entrepreneurship, then it's worth considering just exactly how is some 18 year old supposed to convince the bank or other investors to give him a shot? Only the ones born into a successful family business in which mom and dad have already taken all of the risks or inherited substantial money, can do this.

 

Additionally, with unemployment so high in our state, one can be competing against a person with 25 years work experience for the same low paying job. You can bet the employer is going take the one with the work experience or the BA/BS if he can get them. 18 year olds around here can hardly even find work bagging groceries or clerking in the video store. There are unemployed, older, mature adults who are taking those jobs when their unemployment benefits run out. So, these kids have to have a plan that entails a heck of a lot more than, "I have ambition and am super smart."

 

As for his ridiculous comment about studying "professional journals"...he ought to actually put his brain in gear. Seriously, I would think there is a strong reason for pre-ed students to be studying The New England Journal of Medicine though most people wouldn't understand it without some pharmacology, pathophysiology, and A & P classes. As a music major, we studied Clavier, Keyboard Classics, etc. in college and yep, they were pretty dog-gone technical for the NON MUSICIAN, but completely digestible to someone who has studied the piano for the 13 years prior to college. I could not believe that comment....it was soooooooooooooooooo ignorant.

 

I'm feeling grumpy so I'll get off it with Jane.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

Rainefox, I would be interested in how your child is operating a home health agency? Does he/she have a medical degree? What is the level of licensing? In Michigan, one has to have special licensing for the owner in order to operate a home health agency. One cannot just open a business and hire CNA's, LPN's, and physical therapists. The liability insurance runs about $250,000.00 per year in premiums.

 

The office, furniture, beginning pay-roll, someone who specializes in insurance billing practices, Medicare/Medicaid approvals, etc. The home heath agency that just opened 8 miles from our home cost the business owner a half million dollars just to open the doors the first day. What did your student do in order to earn that kind of money through childhood? I'm just curious. Maybe you are in a cheaper state. The cost of doing business in the Michigan is extraordinary and without a B.A. in business, the local banks will.not.touch. a new start-up entrepreneur. I am not trying to be offensive at all. I'm just really, really seeking to understand because I know what the regulations are locally and I know the owner of the health care agency personally and I know what it cost her personally to get this business started. The liability insurance alone is just an extraordinary part of her start-up costs and she had to pay for six months of it FIRST in order for the bank to even look at her proposal.

 

Thank you,

Faith

[Jane in NC]

 

ETA: Yeah, we are Libertarians, you guessed it. And the biofuels kid actually has investors that he found on his own. The home health agency kid has been saving up for her agency out of her own earnings.......want me to go on? It isn't impossible, if my kids can do it I'm sure yours can too.

 

Rainefox, it is good to hear that your kids are able to take the bull by the horns, so to speak.

 

I know two people connected to biofuels--both have PhDs. The one who owns a biofuels company has a PhD in chemistry; the other has a PhD in microbiology and publishes articles in those journals that Stossel says nobody reads.

 

There is also my husband's colleague who converted his diesel car to run on french fry oil. He thought that he might have a side business doing this for other people but that idea bit the dust when french fry oil was no longer free. Now restaurants are paid for their used oil by businesses that producing veg-oil to resell.

 

As I said, I am all for entrepreneurship. It just seems that many good ideas do not get off the ground without significant funding.

[Stacy in NJ]

Education is always valuable. Unfortunately, some colleges are less in the business of educating students and more about credentialing them. This is obviously less true when student's are pursuing STEM's degrees.

 

Read about Ross Douthat's experience at Harvard for some background.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/03/the-truth-about-harvard/3726/

 

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1401301126/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon

Edited July 8, 2011 by Stacy in NJ

[4wildberrys]

I'm thinking that a lot of the current college bashing is because the economic times are tough for many people---and so accepted trends of college=success and more money are being challenged, especially because we are finding that this is a myth for many. Example: My brother has a college degree and has been unemployed or working part-time since he got that exalted piece of paper nearly 16 years ago. My own husband decided to become a real estate appraiser and took the required short course of study and began working!! Steadily now for 16 years, building up a business that has given us quite a very nice quality of life. My brother has never bought a new car, a house and struggles mightily to this day financially. But he is very proud of that Degree in Communications/Political Science. In fact, my husband has been shunned for many years by the College Degree holding crowd (family AND 'friends') because he does not have that exalted paper that proves how much better he is than the masses----yet he has consistently made more money and built a very successful business over the last 16 years while the college educated folks we know work for bosses with an earning ceiling or are unemployed. :glare: Perhaps not totally typical----but a great example that has been played out in our own lives.

 

Honestly-----I learned and remember SOO much more from my private college prep high school than my expensive college. In fact, the teachers were SO boring and disinterested, the counselors even less interested at my college that I dropped out after 2 years. I didn't want to party any more either because the kids partied SO much. I'm not a college basher at all----we are certainly encouraging our kids to get a degree. But College for All is ridiculous, the costs are simply OUTRAGEOUS and I am really, really bothered with how dorm life has become 4 years of extended adolescence complete with lots of indiscriminate sleeping around and alcohol. Not at every school of course----but too many. Honestly----I am really torn about the value of the traditional 4-year college experience.

[4wildberrys]

For us, the important thing we want to instill in our children is that idea that they can succeed 'anywhere'. I don't want to raise a herd of sheep that plod off to college simply because it is the expected next step. We have found that by challenging the kids to find or make their own opportunities to earn money during childhood, and by having the expectation that they will find or create their own opportunities for a future that our kids are a lot less inclined to consider college necessary and yet so far five are successful (one college grad) and one is on the edge of the nest about to leave (four more at home). I hope we helped them learn to be more confident and more willing to take risks, I know that we have influenced them to be less likely to prefer being employees of someone else. Or maybe our whole family is just naturally pigheaded and won't take direction well. :glare:

 

This doesn't mean that these adults are not educated, all but one are avid readers and don't just read junk fiction. They are curious and engaged in the world around them. They each have individual interests that they have pursued and continue to pursue. They have lifestyles and income levels they have chosen. None are unhappy or kicking themselves because they feel they don't earn enough and the one college grad works in her field and pays her student loan without feeling she was 'ripped off'. FYI, she doesn't bring home the highest paycheck either or live the most materialistic lifestyle. My SAHM stepdaughter is the one who is most concerned with having what her friends and neighbors have. She is also currently contemplating starting a home health agency (she has experience working independently as a CNA for hire following a year long employment as a CNA in a nursing home) and has a business plan and an attorney, ect.

 

I'm lucky that most of my kids are intelligent. I've tried to instill a work ethic in all of them and I've encouraged them to think deeply about the 'big questions'. We've not 'expected' college, but we have expected clear, independent, responsible decison-making and the ability to find or make opportunities to pursue whatever direction their talents and inclinations led them to. We have tried to model that learning new things is a pleasant hobby and one that we enjoy. It seems to be working. Even if I don't understand exactly what they are talking about sometimes (especially the one who is 'into' biofuels and alternative energy- his lab scares me).

 

ETA: Yeah, we are Libertarians, you guessed it. And the biofuels kid actually has investors that he found on his own. The home health agency kid has been saving up for her agency out of her own earnings.......want me to go on? It isn't impossible, if my kids can do it I'm sure yours can too.

 

Great! :D

[4wildberrys]

Rainefox, it is good to hear that your kids are able to take the bull by the horns, so to speak.

 

I know two people connected to biofuels--both have PhDs. The one who owns a biofuels company has a PhD in chemistry; the other has a PhD in microbiology and publishes articles in those journals that Stossel says nobody reads.

 

There is also my husband's colleague who converted his diesel car to run on french fry oil. He thought that he might have a side business doing this for other people but that idea bit the dust when french fry oil was no longer free. Now restaurants are paid for their used oil by businesses that producing veg-oil to resell.

 

As I said, I am all for entrepreneurship. It just seems that many good ideas do not get off the ground without significant funding.

 

True, but many times innovation, creativity and plain old hard work go further than the initial lump sum to get things rolling. I FIRMLY believe that 'Where there's a will, there IS a way'. ;)

[FaithManor]

Rainefox, it is good to hear that your kids are able to take the bull by the horns, so to speak.

 

I know two people connected to biofuels--both have PhDs. The one who owns a biofuels company has a PhD in chemistry; the other has a PhD in microbiology and publishes articles in those journals that Stossel says nobody reads.

 

There is also my husband's colleague who converted his diesel car to run on french fry oil. He thought that he might have a side business doing this for other people but that idea bit the dust when french fry oil was no longer free. Now restaurants are paid for their used oil by businesses that producing veg-oil to resell.

 

As I said, I am all for entrepreneurship. It just seems that many good ideas do not get off the ground without significant funding.

 

 

Hey Jane, in Michigan you can't run your french fry/biodiesel without a license to produce anyway. Every single gallon has to be inspected by the EPA. Of course, the big producers don't have every gallon inspected, but they produce it in commercial facilities that the state has licensed for that purpose. The home producers have to literally have an EPA person on their grounds to look at every single gallon! The fine is $20,000.00 for failing to do so and the police are serious about it! Two people have been fined for this just in 2011. The biodiesel that's is made from discarded vegetable oil smells like french fries. Your car gives off french fry scented exhaust. So, the police can smell it when they are out driving around and many will drive around with their windows down in the summer just so they can sniff out the trouble.

 

Willie Nelson was fined $20,000.00 in the state of Texas (or Oklahoma, can't remember which one) for running his motorhome on unlicensed biodiesel which he'd been producing himself.

 

Big Ag, Big Oil, Big Alternative Fuel companies, they've lobbied heavily to make sure the rest of us can't break into the industry for personal use. Sigh! We have all of the chemistry equipment to do it ourselves. Dh makes ethanol too, but we can't run that locally either because of a big ethanol plant 9 miles west that petitioned the county for ordinances against home produced ethanol fuel. So, we do it as an experiment with 4-H'ers so they can understand the process and then have to dump our product.

 

But, I will say that one 4-H club did get a license from the state to produce Bio-diesel and run a school bus on it as an educational project. Some state legislator really went to bat for them and managed to push through a license for them. They run one bus from the Birch Run school district off their biodiesel, manufactured at the high school chem lab and supervised by the 4-H club and a 4-H leader, and the oil is donated by area restaurants who could be selling it to a local alternative fuels business. They believe strongly in the educational project and are willing to donate the oil.

 

So, yeah.....I'm all ears. Are there states out there that allow home-produced bio-fuels to operate cars on public roads without licensing and inspections? Or are these fuels regulations but the regs and inspections are easily met?

 

Faith

Edited July 8, 2011 by FaithManor

[Julie in MN]

I'm thinking that a lot of the current college bashing is because the economic times are tough for many people---and so accepted trends of college=success and more money are being challenged, especially because we are finding that this is a myth for many. Example: My brother has a college degree and has been unemployed or working part-time since he got that exalted piece of paper nearly 16 years ago.

 

 

Yes, Stossel aside, I do think there's reason to stand back and take a look at the value of college. College is WAY more expensive than it was when I attended. And it is WAY more the norm than when I attended. I have too many nieces & nephews with degrees, or parts of degrees, and 20,000 in debt before they even get married. Meanwhile they are working at grocery stores and the like.

 

I think there's a case for waiting until one has a goal in mind and then attending college. I know it's harder that way, having forgotten how to study and having other responsibilities in life build up. But it tends to be more focused, with the student having a particular major in mind and completing the degree in 4 years instead of 5-6.

 

That said, there are also kids like my youngest who probably won't go unless he's funneled directly out of high school. I'm thinking of planning in a gap year with a particular skill, though, (such as EMT or Bible college) so he does start a bit closer to age 20. I think he'll be more dedicated at that age.

 

But I don't think it's bashing so much. I had very few friends who went to college; my dh has a GED; it wasn't so much the norm back then. It's just that some time since then, college became an expected extension of high school, and after that played out, folks started to think about swinging the pendulum back the other way towards not so much college, due to costs and the like.

 

Julie

[cindergretta]

I have been reading about the "backlash" against college quite avidly for months now.

 

I don't see people "bashing" college or degrees so much as people are starting to seriously question the cost/benefit ratio for many who attend.

 

There is an idea that the more people who have a college degree, the less value said degree holds. Once upon a time, many in our country were grateful to attain an 8th grade education. Eventually, that was raised to high school graduate. Now we are seeing that high school isn't enough, you need a bachelor's degree. In twenty years, will that not be enough? Will everyone need a master's degree? And thirty years after that, will everyone need a Ph.D? I am just mostly rambling here. I am NOT stating this is this or that is that. These are just things upon which I ruminate... :lol:

 

My dh has a GED and no college. It bothers him on a personal level as he is often looked at as "less than." :( But professionally, he is going great! He has a career with an awesome company where he is well respected, well paid, and has steadily moved up over the last 12 years. And he has no college debt.

 

OTOH, my sister has her bachelor's degree and is a SAHM. She has never worked using her degree at all. She gripes about it ALL THE TIME because she obtained it because she thought it was the "right thing to do" and has a mountain of deb to prove it. Meanwhile, she is respected for her choice to SAH with her 4 dc b/c she has this degree. But without the degree, she would be frowned on because obviously, staying home wasn't a choice so much as "forced" by lack of options due to education. :confused:

 

I think college needs to be carefully considered by each individual before they pursue it. It is expensive and not a guarantee. It is also valuable for meeting people for networking, getting your foot in the door for many jobs, and is yours for life. I am not for or against it. I am for making an informed choice on a case by case basis.

 

My dh and I want our dc to go to college. BUT - we want them to wait one or two years before going. OR we want them to attain an associate's degree, work a while, and then pursue their bachelor's degree when they are a little older, more aware of what they want, and more aware of the ramifications of attending college. (I have a *dear* friend who got almost entirely through his master's in engineering to discover that he hates it. :( He dropped out of the master's program but still had to take a job with the state in engineering because that was all he knew. <sigh> He hates his job every day of his life but is stuck due to the "burden" of his education. Hence, I want my dc to explore a bit and learn a bit before settling on "the rest of their life." I know one mechanic who ditched his career as a psychologist and one research scientist who ditched her career to work as a hair stylist. While NONE regret their education, all 3 regret their chosen path.)

 

(For the record, I am returning to college in the fall to finish out my degree. I am not opposed to college. :D )

[Miss Marple]

I have no problem with a person who has a desire, hobby, drive to do something that will allow him to support himself and/or his family. But I know of few teens who have that. Most make a great hobby of playing video games, golfing, football, etc but there is little market for really good StarCraft 2 players (much to my sons' chagrin!).

 

I am a first generation college grad. Both parents had 8th grade educations. My dad eventually operated a very small masonary construction company which paid our bills. When he was injured my mom went to a 2 year nursing school and worked to support the family. I have no complaints with how I was raised...but I did see the struggle and the damage to my father's health esp. as he grew older. He and my mother both encouraged me to get my degree. But...and it's a big "but"...I was able to take full time classes at the state university for $650 per year!

 

One of the reasons I'm encouraging my sons to begin college right after graduation (in fact they do concurrent enrollment as well) is that they have little idea of what they want to "do" when they grow up. Perhaps homeschooling has been a little isolating in that they are unaware of the many, many things they could do. IMO, college opens up the doors that my boys need in order to find out what it is that they want to do. I, personally, enjoyed taking classes just for the fun of it. Some of my most interesting classes were of no value to my degree, but they did help shape me and help me determine where I wanted to go in life.

 

If I had a child with an entrepreneurial spirit, who had shown a tendency to work hard to accomplish a desire, I would certainly look at the ways he could make it into a career. But the areas in which my sons show interest will require them to have specialized degrees in order to get a job. And there are few companies that offer "on the job training" for engineers or specialists. My sons have seen the lack of value of certain degrees - we know too many middle aged men (>50 yo) who have been laid off only to be replaced by a new graduate with the same degree. That has helped them to see the "value" of certain degrees. They have also seen those who have no college degree (in the field in which they are working) who are struggling in this economy. Many of our mom/pop local businesses are closing because of the economy. So they are aware that starting a business because of an interest/desire is also risky.

 

I think it is a balancing act: cost vs. benefit vs. desire/interest. Apparently there is an inverse relationship between the economy and freshman enrollment. As the economy tanks, enrollment increases. Our state university has record enrollment this year.

[Caroline]

You know, I've been thinking about this thread and the end of the shuttle era. It just seems that scientific research is misunderstood and therefore grinding to a halt in this country. In another thread someone said college isn't rocket science. But that is exactly what college and grad school were for me. I worked on low-gravity crystal growth. I am published in obscure journals. (and not so obscure ones such as Nature.) I am mourning scientific research tonight.

 

And even if you aren't in science or medicine or engineering, college can be challenging. I took all sorts of English classes because I wanted to be a better writer. I came through one of the top high schools in the nation, and I was intellectually challenged in my courses.

 

I know not all colleges are equal. I know I went to very good colleges. But I do see college as intellectually stimulating and challenging and important. I know it's not for everyone. But I know it is for my kids.

[Chez J]

Fascinating thread.

 

I have been thinking about the value of "some" degrees in today's culture. With the downfall of newspapers and rise of online bloggers who do it for pleasure, I'm not sure how much value there is in some degrees. With the rise of film and arts schools that are more vocational and less university, I question the value of some degrees. With beauty queens becoming news anchors, can just anyone who loves journalism become a news anchor? With so many licensing and training programs for some professions, does one really need a degree?

 

I think there is a growing need for greater formalized vocational schools and a greater appreciation of them by corporations. For example, one can work in the IT industry without a college degree in programming. Get a CISCO certification as one example. Extremely rigorous training and very well respected. Get a CISSP certification.

 

These types type of programs needs to be developed and encouraged in other fields as well.

 

However, I think most of the sciences, law and business management have become so much more involved, that I think these types of degrees are extremely important.

 

Just some of my rambling thoughts on this Saturday morning.

[Jane in NC]

Fascinating thread.

 

I have been thinking about the value of "some" degrees in today's culture. With the downfall of newspapers and rise of online bloggers who do it for pleasure, I'm not sure how much value there is in some degrees. With the rise of film and arts schools that are more vocational and less university, I question the value of some degrees. With beauty queens becoming news anchors, can just anyone who loves journalism become a news anchor? With so many licensing and training programs for some professions, does one really need a degree?

 

 

While not all journalists have traditionally earned journalism degrees (or have all broadcasters traditionally earned broadcasting degrees), I wonder if your musings here are more of a question for those pursuing a career in those fields.

 

It seems to me that journalism is at a crossroads. I love newspapers and I continue to buy them. I see value in them. We could argue about whether many bloggers are as independent in their reporting as journalists, but that would be food for thought in another thread.

 

I think the greater value in your comment though is the note that not everything stays the same. Professions and industries change. But does that invalidate college?

 

Perhaps we are back to that question of whether one attends college for an education, job training or both?

 

I think there is a growing need for greater formalized vocational schools and a greater appreciation of them by corporations. For example, one can work in the IT industry without a college degree in programming. Get a CISCO certification as one example. Extremely rigorous training and very well respected. Get a CISSP certification.

 

These types type of programs needs to be developed and encouraged in other fields as well.

 

However, I think most of the sciences, law and business management have become so much more involved, that I think these types of degrees are extremely important.

 

Just some of my rambling thoughts on this Saturday morning.

 

Again, YMMV. My husband's company requires a degree--not just a CISCO certification. But this could be an industry related thing?

[Tarreymere]

Rainefox, I would be interested in how your child is operating a home health agency? Does he/she have a medical degree? What is the level of licensing? In Michigan, one has to have special licensing for the owner in order to operate a home health agency. One cannot just open a business and hire CNA's, LPN's, and physical therapists. The liability insurance runs about $250,000.00 per year in premiums.

 

The office, furniture, beginning pay-roll, someone who specializes in insurance billing practices, Medicare/Medicaid approvals, etc. The home heath agency that just opened 8 miles from our home cost the business owner a half million dollars just to open the doors the first day. What did your student do in order to earn that kind of money through childhood? I'm just curious. Maybe you are in a cheaper state. The cost of doing business in the Michigan is extraordinary and without a B.A. in business, the local banks will.not.touch. a new start-up entrepreneur. I am not trying to be offensive at all. I'm just really, really seeking to understand because I know what the regulations are locally and I know the owner of the health care agency personally and I know what it cost her personally to get this business started. The liability insurance alone is just an extraordinary part of her start-up costs and she had to pay for six months of it FIRST in order for the bank to even look at her proposal.

 

Thank you,

Faith

 

Hi Faith,

 

She needs an RN, I know that because she tried to hire me (I'm an RN) to do admin stuff and write care plans and do some supervision for our state (PA) regulations. I declined. She has an RN who works for her per diem at thirty dollars an hour and this girl doesn't do any client care other than to evaluate their needs.

 

She hasn't got an office, she is doing this out of her basement. She did have to get a business phone line. She didn't buy any office furniture or equipment. She is using public domain software for billing and just microsoft office for letters and brochures. She is doing her own billing and learning as she goes. She did mention looking into getting some approvals from Medicare but I don't know if she did, I will have to ask her how that went and what the outcome was. I do know her first clients were private pay and came to her from word-of-mouth.

 

She is incorporated in our state as a sub-chapter S corporation. She had to pay to have some kind of licenses but I am not familiar with exactly what and apparently it wasn't that expensive.

 

She isn't completely off the ground yet, but even when she hired out herself as an independent contractor aide she had to have liability insurance. I know for her alone it was eighty dollars a year, but I don't know what she pays now. She does have insurance on the other aides that she pays. She did not borrow any money from a bank. Right now she has the two other aides working as per diem employees and is herself mostly making calls and scheduling. She is a people person and has a number of contacts from her time working in the field as well as her own personal references. Last time I asked her how it was going she had eight active clients.

 

She doesn't hire LPNs, any skilled care providers, or any kind of therapists, just home health aides and they don't have to be CNAs. She said in Pa that a home health aide doesn't need to be certified. The aides who work for her do light housekeeping, help clients with bathing and grooming, and do light meal preparation. They can also provide companionship and supervision for people with dementia. They don't transport people anywhere and they don't do any skilled care like dressing changes or deal with medications other than to remind the client about scheduled medication times.

 

It sounds like your friend has a completely different kind, more sophisticated kind of business and probably makes a lot more money from it. I guess that Jen (my daughter) would love to have that kind of business, but she is not able to start out on that scale.

 

 

ETA: My DD tells me that she is not licensed as a home health agency but as a home care agency. Apparently the regulations are less stringent because my DD does not provide skilled services. I apologize for any confusion. DD would like to grow into a home health agency. DD was certified as a nurse's aide at one time but is not currently certified and has no degree or other licenses.

 

ETA: I think it is my son who is more likely to be cutting corners on being properly licensed! I would think that lab is not exactly safe or inspected, but I have no idea what those regulations are or what he is supposed to be doing that he may not be. :)

Edited July 9, 2011 by Rainefox
Update

[Chez J]

Again, YMMV. My husband's company requires a degree--not just a CISCO certification. But this could be an industry related thing?

 

I went from public relations to networking and internet security solely based on vocational certification. I do have a BA degree. However, it was my Novell network and CISSP certification that got me any sort of job and promotion. I worked for one of EDS's major competitors. We routinely ignored any applicant who had a degree but no certification. Certification is what mattered - at least when I was working.

[Chez J]

Perhaps we are back to that question of whether one attends college for an education, job training or both?

 

I personally - just my opinion - think that it currently is way too expensive to be about "education" with no goal of job training. I just can't see spending $40,000 over four years for my child to study literature and history for education's sake without the goal of a job at the end. Just too much money.

 

This is precisely why I am drawn to a classical education while I homeschool. I want my child to have that level of education - to be informed and well-read in literature, history, culture - and then move into "training" for her chosen career as an "already" educated woman.

 

I see that universities try to do this with the requirements of English, government, history and foreign language for the first two years before taking upper-level courses in the chosen major. It's just that I am personally wondering about the value of the majors that are not science, business, etc.

 

Dunno. Just my musings.

[Jane in NC]

I went from public relations to networking and internet security solely based on vocational certification. I do have a BA degree. However, it was my Novell network and CISSP certification that got me any sort of job and promotion. I worked for one of EDS's major competitors. We routinely ignored any applicant who had a degree but no certification. Certification is what mattered - at least when I was working.

 

I asked my husband for clarification on the degree/certification thing. He said that certification only people can qualify for hourly work. But for advancement or salaried positions, a degree was mandatory.

[Chez J]

I asked my husband for clarification on the degree/certification thing. He said that certification only people can qualify for hourly work. But for advancement or salaried positions, a degree was mandatory.

 

Fascinating. Not so where I worked. But, that may have changed. I am no longer working there. ;)

[Jane in NC]

Fascinating. Not so where I worked. But, that may have changed. I am no longer working there. ;)

 

(Shrug.) It could be industry specific.

 

My nephew, for example, quit college to work at an Internet start up. Those kinds of companies back then did not care about degrees. Not sure how they feel about new hires now.

 

Part of this could be ebb and flow of the times. There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed degree holders out there so do these folks get the leg up in the resume stack?

 

Another thing is that my husband works for a large corporation. Smaller companies and more cutting edge firms may have different policies.

[jibaker103]

I am of the mindset that college is for access to a higher level of learning, availability of many different subjects, to gain experience, participate in a variety of opportunities, and make connections not to gain a job or career. If a student attends college with this mindset I think they will come out the other side without regret, disappointment, etc. and be in a better position to create their own path to start living their dream!!!

[butterflymommy]

My husband is a CEO but does not have an MBA (he has a bachelors in philosophy, of all things, from a state college). He is also an expert in intellectual property law but doesn't have a law degree. He managed to make a career out of his passion and is predominantly self taught in most everything he knows. Not only this, but he grew up in abject poverty. However, I do think people like him are very, very rare-- brilliant, perfectly motivated, and able to rise up from a disadvantaged background.

 

As far as my own education, I attended an ivy league for undergrad and a state school for grad school-- other than fancier facilities & libraries, the quality of the education was about the same-- mostly quite good, with some bad. The only "scams" I see in higher education are taking on massive debt from a private college when you could do it for much less at a public college, and thinking a degree will guarantee you financial success. It really depends on how driven you are.

[Miss Marple]

My husband is a CEO but does not have an MBA (he has a bachelors in philosophy, of all things, from a state college). He is also an expert in intellectual property law but doesn't have a law degree. He managed to make a career out of his passion and is predominantly self taught in most everything he knows. Not only this, but he grew up in abject poverty. However, I do think people like him are very, very rare-- brilliant, perfectly motivated, and able to rise up from a disadvantaged background.

 

As far as my own education, I attended an ivy league for undergrad and a state school for grad school-- other than fancier facilities & libraries, the quality of the education was about the same-- mostly quite good, with some bad. The only "scams" I see in higher education are taking on massive debt from a private college when you could do it for much less at a public college, and thinking a degree will guarantee you financial success. It really depends on how driven you are.

 

I know many who have made successful careers out of being self-taught or trained on the job. But some of those lost their higher paying jobs to new graduates who do have degrees. It seems that when a company is bought out or restructured, those who are at the upper end of the pay scale for their position but who do not have a degree are the first to go...then the company hires a new graduate for a lot less. If your husband were to lose his job, how likely would it be that he could walk into another equivalent position at the same salary?

 

One gentleman I am particularly close to has a job as "the" IT specialist at a large teaching hospital. He travels extensively and publishes in those "obscure" journals no one reads :D. He was mostly self-taught although he holds a bachelors degree in an unrelated field I believe. He has advanced to his position because he moved through the ranks at that particular hospital He networked extensively and made friends in high places. The family would like to move, but finding an equivalent position without that degree has made it an impossibility. He must stay where he is because they are the only ones who truly see his worth.

 

I personally think that higher education needs to become more innovative and more cost efficient. There are so many folks out there who want to learn some marketable skill but don't really want to spend 4 years and $100,000 taking courses that don't apply to their degree. The Vo-Techs in our area seem to be reaching out to those students as are the community colleges. There is certainly value in both of those institutions, IMO.

Edited July 9, 2011 by CynthiaOK
argh - bad verb tenses!

[FaithManor]

Hi Faith,

 

She needs an RN, I know that because she tried to hire me (I'm an RN) to do admin stuff and write care plans and do some supervision for our state (PA) regulations. I declined. She has an RN who works for her per diem at thirty dollars an hour and this girl doesn't do any client care other than to evaluate their needs.

 

She hasn't got an office, she is doing this out of her basement. She did have to get a business phone line. She didn't buy any office furniture or equipment. She is using public domain software for billing and just microsoft office for letters and brochures. She is doing her own billing and learning as she goes. She did mention looking into getting some approvals from Medicare but I don't know if she did, I will have to ask her how that went and what the outcome was. I do know her first clients were private pay and came to her from word-of-mouth.

 

She is incorporated in our state as a sub-chapter S corporation. She had to pay to have some kind of licenses but I am not familiar with exactly what and apparently it wasn't that expensive.

 

She isn't completely off the ground yet, but even when she hired out herself as an independent contractor aide she had to have liability insurance. I know for her alone it was eighty dollars a year, but I don't know what she pays now. She does have insurance on the other aides that she pays. She did not borrow any money from a bank. Right now she has the two other aides working as per diem employees and is herself mostly making calls and scheduling. She is a people person and has a number of contacts from her time working in the field as well as her own personal references. Last time I asked her how it was going she had eight active clients.

 

She doesn't hire LPNs, any skilled care providers, or any kind of therapists, just home health aides and they don't have to be CNAs. She said in Pa that a home health aide doesn't need to be certified. The aides who work for her do light housekeeping, help clients with bathing and grooming, and do light meal preparation. They can also provide companionship and supervision for people with dementia. They don't transport people anywhere and they don't do any skilled care like dressing changes or deal with medications other than to remind the client about scheduled medication times.

 

It sounds like your friend has a completely different kind, more sophisticated kind of business and probably makes a lot more money from it. I guess that Jen (my daughter) would love to have that kind of business, but she is not able to start out on that scale.

 

 

ETA: My DD tells me that she is not licensed as a home health agency but as a home care agency. Apparently the regulations are less stringent because my DD does not provide skilled services. I apologize for any confusion. DD would like to grow into a home health agency. DD was certified as a nurse's aide at one time but is not currently certified and has no degree or other licenses.

 

ETA: I think it is my son who is more likely to be cutting corners on being properly licensed! I would think that lab is not exactly safe or inspected, but I have no idea what those regulations are or what he is supposed to be doing that he may not be. :)

 

Thank you so much for answering!

 

PA is definitely less stringent than Michigan!

 

I hope your kids do very well! Tell them not to come here. LOTS of regulations for what they do.

 

Faith