VBS and preaching salvation cc

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

We need to remember that we don't need to be on our knees every single day listing our sins and asking for forgiveness for all of them. Geesh!! If we all had to do that we would never get up. Asking for forgiveness is realizing that Jesus died once and for all and rose again for ALL of our sins and we don't need to get hung up on asking forgiveness each and everyday for all of them. It's just not possible and it isn't what he wants from us. We live a life of defeat if we are living this way.

 

I am not saying that we don't go to those we offend and ask for their forgiveness. I refuse to get sucked into this mentality that I need to make a laundry list of my sins and list them out asking forgiveness for them each day. I would rather live my days glorifying the Lord by all I do and say. And if you truly have asked Jesus into your heart than turning away from your sin becomes a natural thing; you want to do it, to please Him. That's what I believe, but I do know there are people out there who do not believe this. The Lord speaks to me each and everyday and it is Him I need to please not man. I know this is what He wants from me and expects.

I have never heard of any church that teaches you to list out all of your sins every day. Which church does this???

 

If you sin against someone and offend them, do you think that does not offend God? You say you go to the person you offend and ask for forgiveness. But since you don't ask God to forgive you then your sin doesn't offend Him. Am I following you correctly?

Thansk

[Mosaicmind]

I have never heard of any church that teaches you to list out all of your sins every day. Which church does this???

 

If you sin against someone and offend them, do you think that does not offend God? You say you go to the person you offend and ask for forgiveness. But since you don't ask God to forgive you then your sin doesn't offend Him. Am I following you correctly?

Thansk

 

 

You need to read what i wrote to another poster. And yes there are churches that teach this.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

You need to read what i wrote to another poster. And yes there are churches that teach this.

 

Which ones?

[mommaduck]

I think people intermingle salvation & sanctification, when they're really two different things.

 

Salvation is something that happens once - when someone realizes they're a sinner, and for that are separated from God, and there's only one way to reconcile that separation - Christ. The moment you depend on Christ alone to pay your penalty of sin you are saved.

 

This doesn't mean someone instantly becomes a perfect, Christ-like person. Sanctification is a process - the process of becoming more like Christ. We are still human, we still fail. But as we say 'yes' to God and 'no' to the flesh and this becomes our habit of life we become more Christ-like. We will still sin, we will still need to ask the Lord to forgive us, but he is faithful & just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This does not mean we lose our salvation...it just means we lose fellowship & have to make it right.

 

So salvation = a one-time decision. Santification = the Christian walk, or the process of becoming Christ-like. They're not the same thing.

 

This is a Protestant, and might I say more of a modern Protestant, belief. It is not the belief of the Early Church Fathers. It is not the belief of the original Churches. Read the ECF's, you will never find them separating Salvation and Sanctification. Certain RC's (I believe) and the Reformers (in particular) are the ones that started hair splitting. Scripture and the ECF's do not back up this hair splitting. You cannot separate the two. It's a continuing, organic spiritual journey. "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved"

[mommaduck]

Which ones?

 

Bumping in anticipation of a response.

[Cheryl in NM]

Now that is a handy belief. Then you could just do whatever you wanted, because you get auto forgiveness.

 

Not auto forgiveness, salvation. It's like when you tell your kids that an apology is a two part affair: apologizing for what you did wrong and then changing your behavior.

 

I want to be clear, we should never sin with the thought in mind, "Hey I'm going to sin because I can always just ask for forgiveness after I'm done".

 

:iagree:

 

I think people intermingle salvation & sanctification, when they're really two different things.

 

Salvation is something that happens once - when someone realizes they're a sinner, and for that are separated from God, and there's only one way to reconcile that separation - Christ. The moment you depend on Christ alone to pay your penalty of sin you are saved.

 

This doesn't mean someone instantly becomes a perfect, Christ-like person. Sanctification is a process - the process of becoming more like Christ. We are still human, we still fail. But as we say 'yes' to God and 'no' to the flesh and this becomes our habit of life we become more Christ-like. We will still sin, we will still need to ask the Lord to forgive us, but he is faithful & just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This does not mean we lose our salvation...it just means we lose fellowship & have to make it right.

 

So salvation = a one-time decision. Santification = the Christian walk, or the process of becoming Christ-like. They're not the same thing.

 

This is exactly what Lutherans believe! It's a very hard concept to grasp. Christ died for every single sin of every single person, even those that haven't been born yet. He died for all of humanity's sins. Once you believe that Christ is the path to God you have received Salvation.

 

Forgiveness and repentance fall into the sanctification area.

[milovany]

This is a Protestant, and might I say more of a modern Protestant, belief. It is not the belief of the Early Church Fathers. It is not the belief of the original Churches. Read the ECF's, you will never find them separating Salvation and Sanctification. Certain RC's (I believe) and the Reformers (in particular) are the ones that started hair splitting. Scripture and the ECF's do not back up this hair splitting. You cannot separate the two. It's a continuing, organic spiritual journey. "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved"

 

:iagree:

 

Daily we pray this prayer that was modeled for us ("Lord have mercy on me, a sinner"). As well as Psalm 51, which begins:

 

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

 

And the "Our Father" ...

 

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

 

If Christ thought we only needed to ask for forgiveness once from God to be saved, why would He instruct us to ask for forgiveness regularly? It's an ongoing life of communion with Christ, which is what really brings change about within us; having to keep going, to press on, to work out our salvation keeps it at the fore front.

Edited July 4, 2011 by milovaný

[mommaduck]

And the "Our Father" ...

 

Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

 

If Christ thought we only needed to ask for forgiveness once from God to be saved, why would He instruct us to ask for forgiveness regularly? It's an ongoing life of communion with Christ, which is what really brings change about within us; having to keep going, to press on, to work out our salvation keeps it at the fore front.

 

This crossed my mind earlier also. He didn't say we were just to pray this once and once only, but rather that this should be the form that we should pray, as in "with regularity".

 

MosaicMom: it seems that you are saying that we should only ask God for forgiveness once and never again (but then later say that you don't mean "never"...well then, how often? Do you have a limit? It seems that you believe even once a day is "too often"), but that we should ask each other for forgiveness whenever we wrong one another. Yet, Christ's example shows otherwise.

[DawnM]

I am finding I agree with Lutherans more and more......not about everything maybe, but a lot.

 

I need to look into it further.

 

Dawn

 

Not auto forgiveness, salvation. It's like when you tell your kids that an apology is a two part affair: apologizing for what you did wrong and then changing your behavior.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

 

This is exactly what Lutherans believe! It's a very hard concept to grasp. Christ died for every single sin of every single person, even those that haven't been born yet. He died for all of humanity's sins. Once you believe that Christ is the path to God you have received Salvation.

 

Forgiveness and repentance fall into the sanctification area.

[DawnM]

Well, there are some hard core Wesleyan Churches that teach this. They may not come out and say it as such, but they agree that you need to ask for forgiveness of every sin and pray that God will reveal those sins you might not remember or think about so that you can be forgiven of those.

 

I am Wesleyan in many ways, but losing your salvation because of unconfessed sin is NOT one of them! I was taught this growing up and lived in fear of dying with unconfessed sin. I now think this line of thinking is complete hogwash.

 

And, NOT all Wesleyan churches believe this, in fact, I would say most have veared away from this extreme teaching.

 

Dawn

 

Bumping in anticipation of a response.

[Mosaicmind]

This crossed my mind earlier also. He didn't say we were just to pray this once and once only, but rather that this should be the form that we should pray, as in "with regularity".

 

MosaicMom: it seems that you are saying that we should only ask God for forgiveness once and never again (but then later say that you don't mean "never"...well then, how often? Do you have a limit? It seems that you believe even once a day is "too often"), but that we should ask each other for forgiveness whenever we wrong one another. Yet, Christ's example shows otherwise.

 

Not really. I just am saying that I find people get so wrapped up in thinking they need to ask for forgiveness for a lot of things each day that they miss the point of living in freedom. Please don't get me wrong. I do ask the Lord for forgiveness, maybe not each day, but for things that are brought to my mind. I believe the Holy Spirit is our comfort and conscience (so to speak). He brings those things to mind that I know I need to come to the Lord with, but I don't believe in getting myself bent out of shape believing that I need to bring it all to Him. And yes, there are some churches/denominations that teach this.

 

In the end, what really matters is that you know you need a Savior, believe He died and rose again for you, and is coming again. You ask for Him to forgive you of ALL your sins, be the most important thing in your life and live to serve Him each day. The little things stay little but this is the one thing that I know gives me eternal life with my Father.

[mommaduck]

Not really. I just am saying that I find people get so wrapped up in thinking they need to ask for forgiveness for a lot of things each day that they miss the point of living in freedom. Please don't get me wrong. I do ask the Lord for forgiveness, maybe not each day, but for things that are brought to my mind. I believe the Holy Spirit is our comfort and conscience (so to speak). He brings those things to mind that I know I need to come to the Lord with, but I don't believe in getting myself bent out of shape believing that I need to bring it all to Him. And yes, there are some churches/denominations that teach this.

 

In the end, what really matters is that you know you need a Savior, believe He died and rose again for you, and is coming again. You ask for Him to forgive you of ALL your sins, be the most important thing in your life and live to serve Him each day. The little things stay little but this is the one thing that I know gives me eternal life with my Father.

 

So what you were saying is not what you believe, but rather you counteracting one extreme of people you know IRL by stating another extreme? Again, we are not those people. I would love for you to interact with us on what we are saying, not based on people that you counsel IRL.

 

Also, you've been asked several times "which churches" and you have not answered (are you avoiding?).

[Cheryl in NM]

I have never heard of any church that teaches you to list out all of your sins every day. Which church does this???

Thansk

 

Do Catholics teach this? Is that what confession is? It is portrayed in movies that way :tongue_smilie: and that's all the "experience" I have with it.

[mommaduck]

Do Catholics teach this? Is that what confession is? It is portrayed in movies that way :tongue_smilie: and that's all the "experience" I have with it.

 

No and no. That is how it's portrayed in the movies, that is how it's interpreted by various Protestants, but it's inaccurate and without full understanding. Catholics and Orthodox don't sit around writing a laundry list to take to confession and wallow in hopelessness over whether we missed something and might not be saved. :glare:

[ErinMarie123]

This is a Protestant, and might I say more of a modern Protestant, belief. It is not the belief of the Early Church Fathers. It is not the belief of the original Churches. Read the ECF's, you will never find them separating Salvation and Sanctification. Certain RC's (I believe) and the Reformers (in particular) are the ones that started hair splitting. Scripture and the ECF's do not back up this hair splitting. You cannot separate the two. It's a continuing, organic spiritual journey. "I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved"

 

Honestly, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I don't care what the "Early Church Fathers" thought about anything. I have the Bible for myself, can read it for myself, and when God says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life" I take Him at His word.

 

"God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He doesn't say, "believeth in him...and does all this stuff....and lives a holy life here on out.

 

When we see that we can never do anything of ourselves to reconnect with God, other than through Christ, and depend on Him alone we are saved. We can know we have eternal life. Not because I said so, or because an early church father said something - but because God's word says it. That's salvation. It's not a process.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

No and no. That is how it's portrayed in the movies, that is how it's interpreted by various Protestants, but it's inaccurate and without full understanding. Catholics and Orthodox don't sit around writing a laundry list to take to confession and wallow in hopelessness over whether we missed something and might not be saved. :glare:

 

Ditto. Catholics do not teach that. I suspected some thought that which is why I asked the question, and in the meantime I learned about Wesleyan teaching which I will look up later. That is why I always appreciate discussion such as these. I love increasing my knowledge this way.

[mommaduck]

Honestly, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I don't care what the "Early Church Fathers" thought about anything. I have the Bible for myself, can read it for myself, and when God says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life" I take Him at His word.

 

"God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He doesn't say, "believeth in him...and does all this stuff....and lives a holy life here on out.

 

When we see that we can never do anything of ourselves to reconnect with God, other than through Christ, and depend on Him alone we are saved. We can know we have eternal life. Not because I said so, or because an early church father said something - but because God's word says it. That's salvation. It's not a process.

 

I'm not taking you disrespectfully :) I used to think the same way. However, my response is this: if it's just "you and your bible" then you are interpreting Scripture through your own lens rather than through the culture, language, and time that it was written in. The ECF's offer context. The ECF's were the apostles, the students of the apostles, etc.

 

BTW, it was some of the ECF's that gave you your Bible...then some of the Reformers that cut out parts, etc.

 

btw, if it's not a process, then why does Paul say that our salvation is not yet completed, that we wait on that? Why does it say to work out your salvation with trembling and fear?

Edited July 4, 2011 by mommaduck

[Cheryl in NM]

No and no. That is how it's portrayed in the movies, that is how it's interpreted by various Protestants, but it's inaccurate and without full understanding. Catholics and Orthodox don't sit around writing a laundry list to take to confession and wallow in hopelessness over whether we missed something and might not be saved. :glare:

 

I never addressed this issue and don't think that. Thanks for the clarification of the laundry list idea. I know tons of translation gets lost in the movies! That's why I asked. :) I truly did not mean to offend anyone. :001_huh:

[Cheryl in NM]

I'm not taking you disrespectfully :) I used to think the same way. However, my response is this: if it's just "you and your bible" then you are interpreting Scripture through your own lens rather than through the culture, language, and time that it was written in. The ECF's offer context. The ECF's were the apostles, the students of the apostles, etc.

 

BTW, it was some of the ECF's that gave you your Bible...then some of the Reformers that cut out parts, etc.

 

 

:iagree:The Bible is very clear:

Proverbs 3:5

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

[mommaduck]

I never addressed this issue and don't think that. Thanks for the clarification of the laundry list idea. I know tons of translation gets lost in the movies! That's why I asked. :) I truly did not mean to offend anyone. :001_huh:

 

I know you didn't ;) I was bringing in the tone that someone else had implied at one point, simply to make sure it was clear (there was a little bit of snark due to some people actually believing that Catholics do that :D )

[mommaduck]

:iagree:The Bible is very clear:

Proverbs 3:5

 

Exactly.

[Cheryl in NM]

BTW, it was some of the ECF's that gave you your Bible...then some of the Reformers that cut out parts, etc.

 

 

I'm curious to learn more about this. I've always heard it, but I'd be interested to learn more from credible sources, as opposed to rumor.

 

As Lutherans we beleive that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, but if the reformers changed the Bible, then declared it the inerrant Word of God, that poses a pretty big problem.

[mommaduck]

I'm curious to learn more about this. I've always heard it, but I'd be interested to learn more from credible sources, as opposed to rumor.

 

As Lutherans we beleive that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, but if the reformers changed the Bible, then declared it the inerrant Word of God, that poses a pretty big problem.

 

It's not rumor ;) Even the Reformed have admitted this. There used to be three categories. The canon, the deuterocanonicals (still canon), and the apocrypha. The apocrypha were tossed out by the ECF's. Today, people commonly mistake and miscall the deuterocanonicals "the apocrypha". The early English (just as an example) translations still had the deuterocanonicals. The Reformers (and still some Reformed today) state that the deuterocanonicals are good for reading, but not equal to the rest of the canon (it's supposedly like reading a "good Christian book" from the bookstore". Others chose to dismiss the books entirely.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

:iagree:The Bible is very clear:

Proverbs 3:5

 

Yes the Bible is very clear:

2 Thess. 2:15

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

This is why I do care what the Early Church Fathers taught. Besides they didn't have a complete New Testament for a few centuries after Christ, so it is important to me to know just what the Early Christians were doing during that time.

 

 

on a side note, I remember visiting a Southern Baptist church with some dear friends. All of a sudden they stood up and sang Doxology, which I had never heard of in my life. This was shortly after they took me to a live Christimas tree and I saw everyone stand during Handel's Messiah and had no idea why. The mother sweetly turned to me and said, well I guess we Baptists do have traditions after all. What a sweet lady she was.

[mommaduck]

Yes the Bible is very clear:

2 Thess. 2:15

 

 

This is why I do care what the Early Church Fathers taught. Besides they didn't have a complete New Testament for a few centuries after Christ, so it is important to me to know just what the Early Christians were doing during that time.

 

 

on a side note, I remember visiting a Southern Baptist church with some dear friends. All of a sudden they stood up and sang Doxology, which I had never heard of in my life. This was shortly after they took me to a live Christimas tree and I saw everyone stand during Handel's Messiah and had no idea why. The mother sweetly turned to me and said, well I guess we Baptists do have traditions after all. What a sweet lady she was.

Very true and part of history that seems to be forgotten.

 

The side note is cute. Many people that rail about Traditions have their own as well, but call it something else. My FIL used to be an SBC pastor. He'd agree with that lady.

[Cheryl in NM]

Honestly, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I don't care what the "Early Church Fathers" thought about anything. I have the Bible for myself, can read it for myself, and when God says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life" I take Him at His word.

 

"God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He doesn't say, "believeth in him...and does all this stuff....and lives a holy life here on out.

 

When we see that we can never do anything of ourselves to reconnect with God, other than through Christ, and depend on Him alone we are saved. We can know we have eternal life. Not because I said so, or because an early church father said something - but because God's word says it. That's salvation. It's not a process.

 

Yes the Bible is very clear:

2 Thess. 2:15

 

 

This is why I do care what the Early Church Fathers taught. Besides they didn't have a complete New Testament for a few centuries after Christ, so it is important to me to know just what the Early Christians were doing during that time.

 

 

on a side note, I remember visiting a Southern Baptist church with some dear friends. All of a sudden they stood up and sang Doxology, which I had never heard of in my life. This was shortly after they took me to a live Christimas tree and I saw everyone stand during Handel's Messiah and had no idea why. The mother sweetly turned to me and said, well I guess we Baptists do have traditions after all. What a sweet lady she was.

 

My post was referring to the above quote where the posters says that all she needs is her Bible and her own understanding. Your post just proves my position with another Bible verse.

 

I never said anything about turning our backs on tradition. You took my post out of context. It's easy to do in these threads. No offense meant, just statement of fact. :)

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

My post was referring to the above quote where the posters says that all she needs is her Bible and her own understanding. Your post just proves my position with another Bible verse.

 

I never said anything about turning our backs on tradition. You took my post out of context. It's easy to do in these threads. No offense meant, just statement of fact. :)

 

Yes, sorry. It's hard to quote the right post on my minilaptop sometimes.

[Cheryl in NM]

Yes, sorry. It's hard to quote the right post on my minilaptop sometimes.

 

No problem! :)

[ereks mom]

I would expect that at our church...it isn't "drilled" but lovingly shared. It's the gospel. And, our church is very open about the fact that VBS is a huge witnessing opportunity! Our church members invite friends, family, etc...and the very reason we have these things is to share the gospel.

 

...I guess part of me is surprised that people take their children to VBS and DON'T expect this?! I guess it is just a different denomination thing...but that just shows how common it is here, especially where we are in the Bible Belt.

 

Me too. :iagree:

 

I am Baptist and I do believe that younger children are assured a place in heaven, but once they reach the age of accountability, they must choose for themselves. That age varies from person to person, but I would think many children attending VBS have the capacity for understanding.

 

Again, me too. :iagree:

[milovany]

When we see that we can never do anything of ourselves to reconnect with God, other than through Christ, and depend on Him alone we are saved. We can know we have eternal life. Not because I said so, or because an early church father said something - but because God's word says it. That's salvation. It's not a process.

 

Hopefully you do realize that this is one interpretation of the Scriptures? And not the common one, nor the historical one. I could easily copy and paste Bible verses to show that salvation is in fact a process. Just as importantly, I can show you that this is what the early and middle church taught (exclusively, for at least 1500 years -- that means something); is in fact what the ancient church still teaches today.

 

So there are two interpretations in this discussion -- which one do we go with? The one that developed in the last couple of hundred years, but is different from original and ancient Christianity? Or the one that existed from the beginning of the church and still exists in the ancient church today, without change? Looking at it this way, can you see why some of us choose to go with the original interpretation, that the Holy Spirit gave to the church from the earliest days?

Edited July 4, 2011 by milovaný

[ErinMarie123]

I don't see how it's leaning to your own understanding when God's Word says what it says.

 

There is none righteous, no not one.

 

What is there to interpret?

 

Is God a liar?

 

When he says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" - does he not actually mean "everlasting?" Does he actually mean "until you screw up, and then you have to start over?"

 

When you're saved the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit, and illumines the Scriptures. I am not leaning to my understanding, but leaning on God's Word. God says in Proverbs, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." His Word is clear...why muck it up with extra stuff? Just depend on what He says, and Him alone.

 

As for the Philippians 2:12 -- it says "work out" which means 'bring to full fruition" - not "work FOR" your salvation. Salvation is a gift from God.

 

Problem - sin

Penalty - hell

Payment - either I pay it or trust Christ's payment for me

 

It's not complicated, and it's Biblical.. Trust Christ (salvation), and grow in Christ (sanctification).

[Avila]

I don't see how it's leaning to your own understanding when God's Word says what it says..

 

Because it isn't that clear. Every time you read the Bible, you filter it through something. You filter it through your own culture, your previous experiences, books your have read, sermons you have listened to ... It isn't as easy as read it, understand it, period. When you read it, you are putting your own understanding into it AND your own interpretation on it. Or using someone else's. Either way, it isn't just you and the text.

 

If it was as simple as just you and your Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide you, why don't all Christians just read the words and agree on what they say? Why are there SO many different interpretations of scripture, each supporting a particular POV and worldview?

 

Whether you realize it or not, it is impossible to just go to the Bible and read it without interpreting it to understand it and once you do that, you bring something else to the table. You are leaning on your own understanding, or that of your denomination, or that of your favorite author or just that of your own culture. But it is not just simple words that everyone should just be able to get or people wouldn't have been fighting over it for the last 500 years.

 

Acts 8: 26-40 (In part)

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

 

I can choose to believe that, with my limited modern understanding of an ancient text, that I can read it all for myself and correctly interpret it OR I can choose to follow what the Church believed and taught, handed down by the apostles. I can be right or the men who knew Jesus and walked with him can be right, but it is doubtful that we will both be unless I am walking in their footsteps.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Asenik

[milovany]

I don't see how it's leaning to your own understanding when God's Word says what it says.

 

There is none righteous, no not one.

 

What is there to interpret?

 

Is God a liar?

 

When he says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" - does he not actually mean "everlasting?" Does he actually mean "until you screw up, and then you have to start over?"

 

When you're saved the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit, and illumines the Scriptures. I am not leaning to my understanding, but leaning on God's Word. God says in Proverbs, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." His Word is clear...why muck it up with extra stuff? Just depend on what He says, and Him alone.

 

As for the Philippians 2:12 -- it says "work out" which means 'bring to full fruition" - not "work FOR" your salvation. Salvation is a gift from God.

 

Problem - sin

Penalty - hell

Payment - either I pay it or trust Christ's payment for me

 

It's not complicated, and it's Biblical.. Trust Christ (salvation), and grow in Christ (sanctification).

 

There's a lot of interpretation going on there! ;)

 

This:

Problem - sin

Penalty - hell

Payment - either I pay it or trust Christ's payment for me

 

... is not what the ancient church believed. Here's a closer "chart" showing what the ancient church believed:

 

Problem - rejection of the life offered by God, resulting in separation from God (death)

Result - compassion from God

Solution - union with Christ, turning to him with repentance

 

(source, article called "View of Sin in the Early Church")

 

So all I can do is ask again:

...there are two interpretations in this discussion -- which one do we go with? The one that developed in the last couple of hundred years, but is different from original and ancient Christianity? Or the one that existed from the beginning of the church and still exists in the ancient church today, without change? Looking at it this way, can you see why some of us choose to go with the original interpretation, that the Holy Spirit gave to the church from the earliest days.

Edited July 4, 2011 by milovaný

[milovany]

Because it isn't that clear. Every time you read the Bible, you filter it through something. You filter it through your own culture, your previous experiences, books your have read, sermons you have listened to ... It isn't as easy as read it, understand it, period. When you read it, you are putting your own understanding into it AND your own interpretation on it.

 

Yes, this. And a good example is that I used to say that I became "born again" (according to the protestant/evangelical use of the phrase) by just reading the Bible. I read my roommate's Bible in the privacy of my room over the course of a few months, and in the end prayed a prayer to "receive Christ." But the truth of the matter is I had attended churches previously, and was currently attending a church, where this type of "salvation" was taught; i.e., receive Christ through praying a prayer, and you'll be forgiven of your sins, past, present and future and you'll go to heaven when you die, no matter what). What I heard from others, the way they interpreted some Bible verses, was the filter through which I was reading my roommate's Bible.

 

And my filter was wrong. This is not what the Holy Spirit gave to the church in the ancient times. It's a modern, protestant interpretation. I understand that it means something to many people, especially in our country/culture, and I respect that without judgment. I just don't think it's the interpretation the Holy Spirit gave to the original church.

Edited July 4, 2011 by milovaný

[mommaduck]

I don't see how it's leaning to your own understanding when God's Word says what it says. It's leaning on your own perception/understanding when you take something out of context or look at the context of the language/culture/time that it was written in or when you cherry pick certain verses and not read them in context of the rest.

 

There is none righteous, no not one.

 

What is there to interpret? There are other verses that are very controversial and are interpreted differently by various people, even by solo scripturists.

 

Is God a liar? No, but I don't think this is the issue in as much as you are only taking a few verses and leaving the rest (?)

 

When he says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" - does he not actually mean "everlasting?" Does he actually mean "until you screw up, and then you have to start over?" Where did any of us state this :confused:

 

When you're saved the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit, and illumines the Scriptures. I am not leaning to my understanding, but leaning on God's Word. God says in Proverbs, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." His Word is clear...why muck it up with extra stuff? Just depend on what He says, and Him alone.And I know someone that claims that God gave him a secret copy of the "original Hebrew Scriptures", as in literally handed it to him from heaven, and the Holy Spirit told him that the world is going to end in 2042. No one is "mucking it up" with other stuff. You just may not like what those that actually lived during Christ's time and knew Christ or knew his apostles have to say...or maybe not, but you never know if you just flippantly dismiss them. Why not flippantly dismiss John...or Paul...or James...? If St Stephen had written something, should we just dismiss him also?

 

As for the Philippians 2:12 -- it says "work out" which means 'bring to full fruition" - not "work FOR" your salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. Again, you are misunderstanding what we are saying. We never said we had to work FOR our salvation, but work out, bring to full fruition...yes, that takes a lifetime. You don't just say a pretty little prayer and then find yourself perfect.

 

Problem - sin

Penalty - hell

Payment - either I pay it or trust Christ's payment for me eh, did Christ die to pay a debt or to rescue us? This is also another difference between East and West and their respective views of Original Sin.

 

It's not complicated, and it's Biblical.. Trust Christ (salvation), and grow in Christ (sanctification).

Again, this is something that was not split into these two categories until close to the Reformation. the early church did not believe these two things to be separate. The early church was taught by the apostles and others who were taught by Christ. Should I go with how they viewed the two or how men only recently in history view it? BTW, how those were taught by Christ is Biblical, and can be shown also...if you don't pick out certain verses over others and read them in context of the whole.

[Bassoonaroo]

Wow, 24 pages of posts and company is due ... right now! I'm not plowing through it all.

 

In our church, Evangelical Free, at our VBSs, often teens and adults will share about their saving relationship with Christ and remind children that salvation is a free gift, there for the asking. You don't "have to be good" or "go to church each week" or "give a set amount of money." You have to believe and ask. We then encourage the children to approach the workers (mature teens, adults). If a child within the church body (about half the VBS kids are, the rest typically are from the neighborhood) expresses interest in asking Christ to be his or her savior, we let the parents know, so that THEY can lead the child through the process. Some parents are eager. Others aren't. Some children don't quite understand, so simply telling the parents, "Joe said he was interested in salvation," is enough to get the conversation at home started. Sometimes the conversation lasts years...

 

If the child is from a non-Christian family in the neighborhood, we share with the parents what the child has expressed interest in and explain it to the parents, with no pressure. Often, we give the child and parents Bibles (with an illustrated, easy to use one for the kids, a "life application" or similar one for the parents). At any rate, we keep in touch. We've been blessed with families from the neighborhood who have not been to church in decades deciding to join us as regularly weekly church-goers and often their faith grows from there.

[mommaduck]

Because it isn't that clear. Every time you read the Bible, you filter it through something. You filter it through your own culture, your previous experiences, books your have read, sermons you have listened to ... It isn't as easy as read it, understand it, period. When you read it, you are putting your own understanding into it AND your own interpretation on it. Or using someone else's. Either way, it isn't just you and the text.

 

If it was as simple as just you and your Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide you, why don't all Christians just read the words and agree on what they say? Why are there SO many different interpretations of scripture, each supporting a particular POV and worldview?

 

Whether you realize it or not, it is impossible to just go to the Bible and read it without interpreting it to understand it and once you do that, you bring something else to the table. You are leaning on your own understanding, or that of your denomination, or that of your favorite author or just that of your own culture. But it is not just simple words that everyone should just be able to get or people wouldn't have been fighting over it for the last 500 years.

 

Acts 8: 26-40 (In part)

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

 

I can choose to believe that, with my limited modern understanding of an ancient text, that I can read it all for myself and correctly interpret it OR I can choose to follow what the Church believed and taught, handed down by the apostles. I can be right or the men who knew Jesus and walked with him can be right, but it is doubtful that we will both be unless I am walking in their footsteps.

:iagree: Better stated than I could...thank you :)

[ErinMarie123]

Again, this is something that was not split into these two categories until close to the Reformation. the early church did not believe these two things to be separate. The early church was taught by the apostles and others who were taught by Christ. Should I go with how they viewed the two or how men only recently in history view it? BTW, how those were taught by Christ is Biblical, and can be shown also...if you don't pick out certain verses over others and read them in context of the whole.

 

Read Romans 6, 7, & 8. Paul wrote it to Christian brethren in Rome, i.e. saved people. I would assume he is an "early church father." The whole 3 chapters are about how to forsake your sin and live the Christ life. This is sanctification.

 

With that, I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the issue.

[mommaduck]

Read Romans 6, 7, & 8. Paul wrote it to Christian brethren in Rome, i.e. saved people. I would assume he is an "early church father." The whole 3 chapters are about how to forsake your sin and live the Christ life. This is sanctification.

 

With that, I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the issue.

 

This is salvation :) Sanctification is PART OF Salvation...Salvation is PART OF Sanctification. You are correct, Paul was speaking of this.

 

I know you are stepping out of the conversation, but I would request that you consider how we got our Scriptures in the first place. They did not drop out of the sky nor did God handwrite a list ;)

Edited July 4, 2011 by mommaduck

[amey311]

When he says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" - does he not actually mean "everlasting?" Does he actually mean "until you screw up, and then you have to start over?"

 

When you're saved the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit, and illumines the Scriptures. I am not leaning to my understanding, but leaning on God's Word. God says in Proverbs, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." His Word is clear...why muck it up with extra stuff? Just depend on what He says, and Him alone.

 

 

 

What about this:

 

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

 

(1 Timothy 2:11-14 -- NIV). Some might argue that this discussion shouldn't happen because it's women "teaching" men - there are men on this message board. Some people read this and accept it literally. And then there's this interpretation: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/fees.htm which is more nuanced and slightly different.

 

I think it's naive to think that you read the Bible and know exactly what it meant and interpret it literally. You read it and interpret it thru a filter of personal experiences and information from others.

[Cheryl in NM]

I don't see how it's leaning to your own understanding when God's Word says what it says.

 

There is none righteous, no not one.

 

What is there to interpret?

 

Is God a liar?

 

When he says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" - does he not actually mean "everlasting?" Does he actually mean "until you screw up, and then you have to start over?"

 

When you're saved the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit, and illumines the Scriptures. I am not leaning to my understanding, but leaning on God's Word. God says in Proverbs, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." His Word is clear...why muck it up with extra stuff? Just depend on what He says, and Him alone.

 

As for the Philippians 2:12 -- it says "work out" which means 'bring to full fruition" - not "work FOR" your salvation. Salvation is a gift from God.

 

Problem - sin

Penalty - hell

Payment - either I pay it or trust Christ's payment for me

 

It's not complicated, and it's Biblical.. Trust Christ (salvation), and grow in Christ (sanctification).

 

Biblically, God tells to "lean not on your own understanding". We need each other. If He meant for us to each, individually live then he wouldn't have created Eve from Adam. That proves that we are inter-dependent and must rely on each other.

 

My understanding of this Bible verse is that I can easily confuse myself so I must have someone to talk to about it. Dh and I are from vastly different backgrounds (Baptist and Lutheran). We still discuss anything that confuses each of us. For me, when he tells me a correct interpretation of the Bible that differs from mine I "know" that he's correct. I feel that God is telling me that I'm wrong and Dh is right. sometimes, God tells me that Dh is wrong and I'm right. I consider that to be divine guidance and directly from God. It's the discernment that the Bible talks about.

[milovany]

With that, I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the issue.

 

 

Please forgive me if I offended in any way, ErinMarie. I'm only two years removed from what you are stating ..... and if I sounded prideful about the beliefs I now ascribe to, I ask your forgiveness.

[Avila]

Read Romans 6, 7, & 8. Paul wrote it to Christian brethren in Rome, i.e. saved people. I would assume he is an "early church father." The whole 3 chapters are about how to forsake your sin and live the Christ life. This is sanctification.

 

With that, I'm stepping out of this conversation because I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the issue.

 

I am sorry you are stepping out.

 

I think part of the issue in this is defining interpretation. I think your definition of sanctification is interpretation. What you say those chapters mean are likely not at all what I think they do. We have read the same words, but we find the meaning to be completely different.

 

It reminds me of a story in my first literary criticism class about three girls who read a poem. The teacher asked what the poem meant. The first girl thought the poem was about internal conflict, struggling to become your own person and valuing yourself. The second though it was about seeing beauty in something ugly and using beauty to transcend reality. the third girl just shrugged and said, "I just thought it was a poem about a caterpillar." We can all read the same thing and find different meaning in it. In fact, it is very likely. The issue with scripture becomes who gets to decide which of those meanings is the truth.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Asenik

[Mosaicmind]

Which ones?

 

Southern Baptist, Weslyn, non-denominational, Assemblies of God, and The Christian denomination. Just to name a few that i have been to and preach this.

 

Also, I was not tying to be judgmental but was saying that once Jesus enters our heart we have a desire to do what is right in His eyes, it doesn't always happen. But, that Holy Spirit conscience that wasn't there before convicts us of things now that we did in the past that grieved the Lord's heart and that may not have happened prior to salvation. I do believe that we want to do the right thing because we love the Lord but our sin nature gets in the way and we do the opposite.

[unsinkable]

As a RC, I was taught to do a nightly examination of conscience.

 

i was trying to find a good link w/an explanation of this and this one came up:

 

nightly examination of conscience

[MrsMe]

First, our church doesn't believe in the Sinner's Prayer. Second, we believe that children are saved because they are born without sin. So no, we do not push children to become saved at VBS. More towards jr high ae we begin teaching the youth what the Bible says about salvation and let them come to their own decisions when they are ready.

 

 

Mmm. No child is born without sin. That would make them perfect. Adam & Eve were fallen and we're all descendents from them. However, they are born without the knowledge of right and wrong and it's up to them at a certain point to accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

The point of VBS is to teach children this. So no, they're not wrong, that's why they're there.

[amey311]

Mmm. No child is born without sin. That would make them perfect. Adam & Eve were fallen and we're all descendents from them. However, they are born without the knowledge of right and wrong and it's up to them at a certain point to accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

The point of VBS is to teach children this. So no, they're not wrong, that's why they're there.

 

Not every denomination holds with this interpretation of Original Sin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

[HappyCrazyMama]

Mmm. No child is born without sin. That would make them perfect. Adam & Eve were fallen and we're all descendents from them. However, they are born without the knowledge of right and wrong and it's up to them at a certain point to accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

The point of VBS is to teach children this. So no, they're not wrong, that's why they're there.

 

If this thread is any indication some would disagree.;) (with the bolded, which is all I'm commenting on concerning your post in my post :)) There are many wonderful things to learn about God and the Bible, including that Jesus died on the cross to redeem us.

 

(Disclamer - The following is a general reply.);)

 

Pressuring my kids to get "saved" is not what I am looking for in VBS and, thankfully, I have actually never encountered this in any VBS program my children have attended (mostly Lutheran and Presbyterian). This year came close (non-denominational) it was definitely a big focus but there was no "sinners prayer" or "tallying" of the kids that were saved. I'm doubting they will go there again.

[5kidsforME]

Also, I was not tying to be judgmental but was saying that once Jesus enters our heart we have a desire to do what is right in His eyes, it doesn't always happen. But, that Holy Spirit conscience that wasn't there before convicts us of things now that we did in the past that grieved the Lord's heart and that may not have happened prior to salvation. I do believe that we want to do the right thing because we love the Lord but our sin nature gets in the way and we do the opposite.

 

Of course. The problem that I have with what you said is about forgiveness. You said in one of your earlier posts that asking for forgiveness over and over is like nailing Jesus to the cross over and over. That is a bold and incorrect statement. I find it offensive too.

[Mosaicmind]

Of course. The problem that I have with what you said is about forgiveness. You said in one of your earlier posts that asking for forgiveness over and over is like nailing Jesus to the cross over and over. That is a bold and incorrect statement. I find it offensive too.

 

 

I guess I was referring to people who ask for forgiveness for the same sin over and over believing that they weren't forgiven the first time; sorry. I used to do this because I had been told that if I kept doing it then I must haven't received forgiveness and so I need to keep asking. It was erroneous teaching but one I have heard taught by certain churches. I didn't mean to be offensive or judgmental. I don't expect we will all fall on the same page with all aspects of our different faiths.