If you can stand the controversy, y AND w are vowels

[ElizabethB]

I updated my syllable division rules and chart after noticing that I had left off y, and my children have played the Starfall song "Y can be a vowel" about 1,000 times, so I should know better.

 

Here is an old thread where there was much discussion about w as a vowel.

[Dawn in OH]

I went to a school system where we were taught the vowels were: A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y and W. I never understood the reasoning behind W being a vowel until I began homeschooling. I've spent a lot of time studying phonics in order to teach it.

[ElizabethB]

I went to a school system where we were taught the vowels were: A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y and W. I never understood the reasoning behind W being a vowel until I began homeschooling. I've spent a lot of time studying phonics in order to teach it.

 

:iagree:

 

Except, my school did not teach w as a vowel. But, it took a long time studying phonics to understand and teach it. It really does act as a double-u in some circumstances.

[mcconnellboys]

I don't remember that I was taught this, but it seems to make sense. Just as 'y' is considered a vowel when it makes the long 'e' sound at the end of a word, I'm guessing that 'w' may be considered a vowel when it makes the 'u' sound in combination with an 'a', etc.

[Teachin'Mine]

Never heard of w being considered a vowel. Y - yes but not w.

 

My dd has no idea of that either since her maw and paw never taught that. :)

[tntgoodwin]

My dd4 knows ALL her vowels, and that includes sometimes w and y. :)

[zaichiki]

I don't think w can be considered a vowel. A vowel should be able to make a vowel sound when it stands alone. Y does this. W does not.

 

I do understand that w can be part of a vowel team (aw or ow as alternate spellings for teams au or ou), but on its own it is just a consonant.

[GypsieFamily]

The kids' speech therapists suggested that y is sometimes a vowel, and that w and h are semi-vowels.

Apparently the definition of a vowel is a sound made with an open mouth, a consonent is a sound made by closing the mouth.

[Mommyfaithe]

I think they can act as a vowel. W or Y can act as a vowel when they take the place of U or I.

Faithe

[LauraGB]

Huh.

 

I had no idea. But it makes linguistic sense. So many other languages pronounce "w" as "y" or not at all.

 

Interesting.

[zaichiki]

The kids' speech therapists suggested that y is sometimes a vowel, and that w and h are semi-vowels.

Apparently the definition of a vowel is a sound made with an open mouth, a consonent is a sound made by closing the mouth.

 

Except I don't think there's a category called "semi-vowels" when it comes to spelling/phonics.

 

Every syllable needs a vowel. Can anyone think of a syllable that uses w as its vowel??? If you throw it in with the vowels, it doesn't follow the rules.

[zaichiki]

But it makes linguistic sense. So many other languages pronounce "w" as "y" or not at all.

 

I've always been very interested in linguistics. Would you mind satisfying my curiosity? What are some of those languages?

 

Not pronouncing a letter doesn't make it a vowel, though. Some consonants are "silent" letters (thinking of kn, gn, igh, wr, mb).

 

Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong angle? Maybe I'm thinking of spelling/phonics when I should be thinking of articulation?

[Mommyfaithe]

Except I don't think there's a category called "semi-vowels" when it comes to spelling/phonics.

 

Every syllable needs a vowel. Can anyone think of a syllable that uses w as its vowel??? If you throw it in with the vowels, it doesn't follow the rules.

 

Clown

[Dawn in OH]

I don't remember that I was taught this, but it seems to make sense. Just as 'y' is considered a vowel when it makes the long 'e' sound at the end of a word, I'm guessing that 'w' may be considered a vowel when it makes the 'u' sound in combination with an 'a', etc.

 

In the diphthong ow, the w is being used as a vowel. W can substitute for u because w is really a double u. In the ew diphthong the w is also a vowel.

 

In the aw combination (note, not a diphthong) the w is acting like the consonant letter w, and not the vowel sound of letter u.

[zaichiki]

Clown

 

In this case w is part of a vowel team (ow) and it is an alternate spelling for the two-vowel team ou. W is not a stand alone vowel. Clown is one syllable. (unless you're from the south?)

Edited June 15, 2011 by zaichiki
typo: I meant ou not au.

[Spy Car]

In this case w is part of a vowel team (ow) and it is an alternate spelling for the two-vowel team au. W is not a stand alone vowel. Clown is one syllable. (unless you're from the south?)

 

I share your skepticism.

 

Bill

[Imprimis]

 

Every syllable needs a vowel. Can anyone think of a syllable that uses w as its vowel??? If you throw it in with the vowels, it doesn't follow the rules.

 

Yes. The word cwm---it's of Welsh origin and it means a basin in a valley (or something like that :))

[Teachin'Mine]

Yes. The word cwm---it's of Welsh origin and it means a basin in a valley (or something like that :))

 

 

I can't wait to use that one in Quiddler! :D

[ElizabethB]

I think they can act as a vowel. W or Y can act as a vowel when they take the place of U or I.

Faithe

 

:iagree:

 

This. In these substitutions, w is taking the place of the u:

 

eu/ew europe few

ou/ow out how

au/aw pause lawn

 

Words in English do not end in u, the u will change to a double-u (w) and is the part of the vowel making the long u sound in eu and ew.

 

Plus, Webster said so, and he wrote our first dictionary, I'm going with him. (It took me a while before I did believe it, though. I think I bought in to Pluto's demotion quicker than w's promotion, actually.)

[LauraGB]

I've always been very interested in linguistics. Would you mind satisfying my curiosity? What are some of those languages?

 

 

 

I'm still trying to puzzle it out, but y, w, v, and e all sound the same based on placement in the word in some languages. In French, w sounds like v. In german w sounds like y or e or even u. In Italian, there are so few w sounds I can't even come up with a word. W doesn't even exist in greek; either the letter or the sound. It would seem most languages change the sound pretty drastically, and if it's not the v sound, it's a vowel sound.

 

It's interesting.

[Imprimis]

I can't wait to use that one in Quiddler! :D

 

Yep. It can be useful in a game of Scrabble, too!

[Sputterduck]

:iagree:

 

This. In these substitutions, w is taking the place of the u:

 

eu/ew europe few

ou/ow out how

au/aw pause lawn

 

Words in English do not end in u, the u will change to a double-u (w) and is the part of the vowel making the long u sound in eu and ew.

 

Plus, Webster said so, and he wrote our first dictionary, I'm going with him. (It took me a while before I did believe it, though. I think I bought in to Pluto's demotion quicker than w's promotion, actually.)

 

Where are you from? There is no long u sound when I say Europe. Few definitely has one, though.

[Tohru]

I don't think w can be considered a vowel. A vowel should be able to make a vowel sound when it stands alone. Y does this. W does not.

 

I do understand that w can be part of a vowel team (aw or ow as alternate spellings for teams au or ou), but on its own it is just a consonant.

 

:iagree:

 

ie: shy, fly, by

 

Every word needs a vowel. In these instances, Y is a vowel. Every word in English has an A-E-I-O-U-Y, but there aren't any words in which W can stand alone as a vowel without one of the others.

[Tohru]

:iagree:

 

This. In these substitutions, w is taking the place of the u:

 

eu/ew europe few

ou/ow out how

au/aw pause lawn

 

Words in English do not end in u, the u will change to a double-u (w) and is the part of the vowel making the long u sound in eu and ew.

 

Plus, Webster said so, and he wrote our first dictionary, I'm going with him. (It took me a while before I did believe it, though. I think I bought in to Pluto's demotion quicker than w's promotion, actually.)

 

:lol: Maybe Webster add it because his name started with a W and it was a private joke?

 

Seriously though, fw, hw, lwn are not words. They need the e-o-a.

 

Oddly in Hebrew, there aren't any vowels. They've used dots and dashes to help those out who need them, but really there aren't any at all. Fun!

[ElizabethB]

Where are you from? There is no long u sound when I say Europe. Few definitely has one, though.

 

I used to be from Seattle, but I have moved dozens of times since then and have picked up various sayings and accents, I can't really say anymore.

[Spy Car]

Is the construction gh sometimes a vowel?

 

The vowel in Brit is a short "i". With Bright it becomes a long "i."

 

But we don't claim gh as a vowel. Or am I missing something? :D

 

Bill

[Sputterduck]

I used to be from Seattle, but I have moved dozens of times since then and have picked up various sayings and accents, I can't really say anymore.

 

Okay. If I say Europe with a long u I sound, well, European. :lol:

[zaichiki]

Yes. The word cwm---it's of Welsh origin and it means a basin in a valley (or something like that :))

 

Ha!

 

Well, it's not in my Funk & Wagnall's dictionary and I'm guessing it's actually a Gaelic word so I'm not gonna count it as English. Nope. Is that the only one you've got?

[ereks mom]

This is what I was taught when I was learning phonics back in the late 1960s: "The vowels are A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y & W".

[Spy Car]

Ha!

 

Well, it's not in my Funk & Wagnall's dictionary and I'm guessing it's actually a Gaelic word so I'm not gonna count it as English. Nope. Is that the only one you've got?

 

I checked the OED. It appears that Cumbe>Coomb>Combe dates back to Old English in several spelling variations (none of them including a "W" as a vowel).

 

It is not clear if Cwm came into Gaelic from English, or vice-versa. As far as Cwm being used in "English" the earliest instance listed in the OED is the relatively recent year of 1853, where Cumbe goes back to 770.

 

I'm with you in voting "not English."

 

Bill

Edited June 16, 2011 by Spy Car

[mcconnellboys]

I'm not sure why "aw" is not a diphthong, but I don't know that much about such things, LOL....

 

Here's one website I found that addresses this:

 

http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/is_w_a_vowel

 

"Well, actually "w" is a semi-vowel. It is only a vowel when used as part of diphthong. Otherwise it is a consonant. In English there is no example of when "w" is ever used as a vowel by itself. Once we inject other languages, such as Welsh, we get words like cwm (pronounce Koom). Examples of "w" as a semi-vowel in as part of a diphthong: "aw" in "draw," the "ew" in "stew," and the "ow" in "show."

 

Other examples of non "w" diphthongs: "ai" in "again," the two "o's" in "good," and the "au" in "author."

 

Q: What is a diphthong?

A: Diphthongs are types of vowels where two vowel sounds are connected in a continuous, gliding motion. They are often referred to as gliding vowels."

[Imprimis]

Ha!

 

Well, it's not in my Funk & Wagnall's dictionary and I'm guessing it's actually a Gaelic word so I'm not gonna count it as English. Nope. Is that the only one you've got?

 

It is English---it's of Welsh origin. Cwm is in my Webster's Third International Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language.

 

You can also find it in the online version.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Imprimis

[Spy Car]

It is English---it's of Welsh origin. Cwm is in my Merriam-Webster's Third International Unabridged dictionary.

 

You can also find it in the online version.

 

Being listed in Merriam-Webster's proves nothing. I just checked to see if MW listed "Adios" (which is Spanish) in the dictionary and, of course, it did. This does not make "Adios" (or more properly Adiós) "English."

 

Likewise Cyn is Welch. The English word is Combe.

 

Bill

[Tohru]

I'm not sure why "aw" is not a diphthong, but I don't know that much about such things, LOL....

 

Here's one website I found that addresses this:

 

http://www.trueknowledge.com/q/is_w_a_vowel

 

"Well, actually "w" is a semi-vowel. It is only a vowel when used as part of diphthong. Otherwise it is a consonant. In English there is no example of when "w" is ever used as a vowel by itself. Once we inject other languages, such as Welsh, we get words like cwm (pronounce Koom). Examples of "w" as a semi-vowel in as part of a diphthong: "aw" in "draw," the "ew" in "stew," and the "ow" in "show."

 

Other examples of non "w" diphthongs: "ai" in "again," the two "o's" in "good," and the "au" in "author."

 

Q: What is a diphthong?

A: Diphthongs are types of vowels where two vowel sounds are connected in a continuous, gliding motion. They are often referred to as gliding vowels."

 

Semi-vowel? For some reason, I think that is so terribly funny! I guess it is the compromise on whether it is or it isn't.

 

Gliding...so wouldn't that mean a lot of other consonants are also semi-vowels too?

[Tohru]

This is what I was taught when I was learning phonics back in the late 1960s: "The vowels are A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y & W".

 

Didn't they come out with the "New Math" in the late 60's too? lol!

 

"New Mathematics or New Math was a brief, dramatic change in the way mathematics was taught in American grade schools, and to a lesser extent in European countries, during the 1960s. The name is commonly given to a set of teaching practices introduced in the U.S. shortly after the Sputnik crisis in order to boost science education and mathematical skill in the population so that the intellectual threat of Soviet engineers, reputedly highly skilled mathematicians, could be met." - Wikipedia

Edited June 16, 2011 by jadedone80
add link

[Imprimis]

Being listed in Merriam-Webster's proves nothing. I just checked to see if MW listed "Adios" (which is Spanish) in the dictionary and, of course, it did. This does not make "Adios" (or more properly Adiós) "English."

 

Likewise Cyn is Welch. The English word is Combe.

 

Bill

 

Bill, Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language contains only words that have passed into English or have been Anglicized (adapted to fit our linguistic rules).

 

A huge percentage of our words are derived from other languages. If you look at the etymology of the words used in everyday conversation, you'll probably find most of them have origins other than English.

 

The word chocolate, for instance, is Nahuatl in origin.

 

The word ignite is from Latin. Colonial is of French origin. Mozzarella is from Italian, etc.

 

They are all now English words.

 

So is cwm. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

Didn't they come out with the "New Math" in the late 60's too? lol!

 

"New Mathematics or New Math was a brief, dramatic change in the way mathematics was taught in American grade schools, and to a lesser extent in European countries, during the 1960s. The name is commonly given to a set of teaching practices introduced in the U.S. shortly after the Sputnik crisis in order to boost science education and mathematical skill in the population so that the intellectual threat of Soviet engineers, reputedly highly skilled mathematicians, could be met." - Wikipedia

 

While the programs were often not well implemented (by teachers who did not understand it) there was much to admire in "New Math" including the aim of promoting mathematical reasoning and understanding rather than just procedural math. it is a problem the US educational system (not to mention many home school math programs) has still yet to deal with while the rest of the world eats our lunch.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Bill, Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language contains only words that have passed into English or have been Anglicized (adapted to fit our linguistic rules).

 

A huge percentage of our words are derived from other languages. If you look at the etymology of the words used in everyday conversation, you'll probably find most of them have origins other than English.

 

The word chocolate, for instance, is Nahuatl in origin.

 

The word ignite is from Latin. Colonial is of French origin. Mozzarella is from Italian, etc.

 

They are all now English words.

 

So is cwm. :001_smile:

 

Except combe has been in our language since Old English. Same meaning as "cwm", same pronunciation, it just has historicity and it (and not cwn) conforms to English usage regarding vowels.

 

Bill

[Imprimis]

Except combe has been in our language since Old English. Same meaning as "cwm", same pronunciation, it just has historicity and it (and not cwn) conforms to English usage regarding vowels.

 

Bill

 

Okay, you've made me pull out my whale of a dictionary to look up your word, combe. The etymology for combe is "[of Celt origin; akin to W cwm valley, IrGael cum vessel, Bret komm trough...]"

 

In other words, both combe and cwm have their own entries. They are two different words with similar meanings.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Imprimis

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, apparently semi-vowels are a class of approximants, and further than that I dare not go because I was beginning to feel as if I were immersed in a completely new and foreign language, LOL. I guess speech therapists and audiologists have to have a way to converse about the shapes and sounds the mouth makes and the ways in which we hear those sounds, but it's like talking about car engines to me....

[Spy Car]

Okay, you've made me pull out my whale of a dictionary to look up your word, combe. The etymology for combe is "[of Celt origin; akin to W cwm valley, IrGael cum vessel, Bret komm trough...]"

 

In other words, both combe and cwm have their own entries. They are two different words with similar meanings.

 

Father and Pater would have their own entries too. But it is the same word at root going back to the same ancient source.

 

The OED lists combe (various spellings) in examples going back to 770. The earliest example of the Welch spelling being used in "English" is 1853.

 

Cwm is an example of a foreign world that has not been assimilated to English, but is used with its "foreign spelling" intact. That does not mean "English" conventions have changed and that "W" is now a vowel, just that we are flexible enough to have some foreign words included in our lexicon that do not conform to English rules.

 

And example is the name of the nation of Qatar. There is no "U" after the "Q" because this is a direct transliteration of the Arabic. The fact that we include Qatar in our dictionaries (and in our common usage) does not mean that English language conventions have changed. Would it surprise me if Big-Pharma comes up with a drug called "Qestor"? No. But a side-discussion I suppose.

 

Bill

Edited June 16, 2011 by Spy Car

[Imprimis]

Father and Pater would have their own entries too. But it is the same word at root going back to the same ancient source.

 

The OED lists combe (various spellings) in examples going back to 770. The earliest example of the Welch spelling being used in "English" is 1853.

 

Cwm is an example of a foreign world that has not been assimilated to English, but is used with its "foreign spelling" intact. That does not mean "English" conventions have changed and that "W" is now a vowel, just that we are flexible enough to have some foreign words included in our lexicon that do not conform to English rules.

 

And example is the name of the nation of Qatar. There is no "U" after the "Q" because this is a direct transliteration of the Arabic. The fact that we include Qatar in or dictionaries (and in our common usage) does not mean that English language conventions have changed. Would it surprise me if Big-Pharma comes up with a drug called "Qestor"? No. But a side-discussion I suppose.

 

Bill

 

Both pater and Qatari are words that we have adopted into English. In fact, the word Qatari was used in the regional rounds of the Scripps National Spelling Bee the last few years. They use only English words.

 

Again, many, many words that are now English came from other languages. Some enter into popular usage verbatim (cwm, Qatari, garage, taco). Others are Anglicized (obscene, alkali). But, all of them now make up part of our English language.

 

This is why kids studying for the national spelling bee strive to become experts on etymology---they learn that the /o/ sound in a word of French origin can be spelled with an eau, as in chapeau, or, with an ot, as in depot.

 

They learn obscure letter patterns such as "ui" (pronounced as a long a sound) that is present in uitlander and uintjie, two English words of Afrikaans origin.

 

These kids know that finding out where a word came from can give valuable clues to spelling it correctly.

 

This link from a Rice professor does a nice job of explaining how words "become" English.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Imprimis

[LaxMom]

:iagree:

 

Except, my school did not teach w as a vowel. But, it took a long time studying phonics to understand and teach it. It really does act as a double-u in some circumstances.

 

Yes, like in vacwm.

 

Oh, wait...

 

Heehee.

 

Yes, when I was in school in the 70s, it was a-e-i-o-u and sometimes y and w. I was not aware this was controversial.

[Teachin'Mine]

Do any current phonics or English programs contain information stating that w is sometimes a vowel? I've never heard this before, and I'm definitely not convinced.

[Farrar]

That's so Welsh. :D

[Spy Car]

That's so Welsh. :D

 

Which is actually pronounced "Ooo-elch" :D

 

Bill

[ElizabethB]

Yes, like in vacwm.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Yes, when I was in school in the 70s, it was a-e-i-o-u and sometimes y and w. I was not aware this was controversial.

 

Well, only here, and not hugely controversial, but people do take sides.

 

Now, shopping carts or shoes or crock pots...

[Halftime Hope]

in what I believe are Native American names such as

 

Wichita or Wachita (Yes, go look it up if you don't believe me. There are both names that are spelled with w and names that are properly spelled with the Ou in place of the w.) ETA: in the second name, the spelling should be sh instead of ch. The board software is censoring me and overrides the spelling with asterisks! LOL

 

I understand that these were names that had probably not been reduced to writing, and thus, the linguistic bias of the person who first transcribed them was introduced, but in this instance, I would argue that the w is truly functioning as a vowel, not merely as a vowel substitute to ensure compliance with the convention of english words not ending in u.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Valerie(TX)
gah typos: non*e* in subject line

[Laura Corin]

Just to clarify: Welsh is in a separate language group from either Irish or Scottish Gaelic. It's more closely related to Breton and Cornish, I believe.

 

Laura

Edited June 17, 2011 by Laura Corin

[mcconnellboys]

In Louisiana, Ouachita is still spelled with ou.... Thanks for this interesting bit of info!