Teaching Passover / Pesach

[Jay3fer]

I thought I'd be proactive and post some stuff I've collected, because there is a lot of BAD information out there about Passover (and one bad lapbook in particular that I bought and was very disappointed by - caveat emptor).

 

First, a link to my own homeschool "resources roundup" page:

http://ronypony.blogspot.com/2011/03/pesach-passover-5771-homeschool.html

(because it was put together for Jewish homeschoolers, many of my own links assume some familiarity with the Seder, Passover story & laws, etc.)

 

Two sites with good information for families, including unaffiliated families, are:

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/default_cdo/jewish/Passover.htm

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/ (general page)

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/f/ (family page - including colouring pages for each part of the seder)

 

If you go to a seder, I have written some stuff about the order of it here:

http://ronypony.blogspot.com/2011/04/pesach-passover-haggadah-printable.html

(there are quite a few Hebrew words in there, but I've tried to provide translations and make it as friendly as possible - while still primarily writing it for my own kids, who have a bit of background knowledge...)

 

Here's a nice Haggadah (Seder booklet) outline with some easy-to-read commentaries:

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/pesach/haggadah.pdf

 

And a cute Passover video from aish.com!

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/mm/Passover_Google_Exodus.html

 

Finally, if you are Christian and looking for a way to incorporate "Messianic" elements into your Passover observance, please read this post first.

 

Hope you find something useful here! :001_smile:

 

Has anyone else found any helpful Pesach links? :lurk5:

[Tracy]

We are Christian, but DD6 loves all holidays, especially Jewish holidays. (Always a reason for a party!) Thanks for posting.

[Jesi4891]

We are going to celebrate this for the first time this year. Thanks for the info!

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Thanks so much!!!! We studied Exodus this year, and they want to revisit Passover on the actual day.

[susankenny]

Finally, if you are Christian and looking for a way to incorporate "Messianic" elements into your Passover observance, please read this post first.

 

 

That made me laugh outloud. I've noticed an increase in my area regarding "Hebrew Christians", so this really gave me a good chuckle.

 

 

Susan

[Ester Maria]

For the Hebrew-speaking among us, this is BRILLIANT, especially for the littles. It is a collection of mostly printable resources of all kinds - from coloring pages for the littles to halachot to articles.

 

This has nice, printable, child-friendly materials too. This too.

 

By the way - I still did not go through your resources so it is possible that you have it too - but if you can think of something suitable for older kids too, let me know. I am looking for something relatively "easy" (that does not require a stellar Jewish education to follow), but that is still more "philosophically" enganging for younger teens than dapey avoda for elementary school LOL.

[Karis]

Remember...

 

The exodus consisted of a mixed multitude so it is TOTALLY appropriate for those who have bound themselves to the LORD to celebrate Pesach.

 

In fact, there are specific provisions made for the "aliens" living among the Israelites.

 

These were not the Goyim /those outside.

 

I understand the desire to reject/ avoid syncretism.

 

Know that those who sojourned were considered righteous non-Jews and were included in the assembly.

[Jay3fer]

@Karis - I'm familiar with the mixed multitude (in Hebrew, the airev rav)! We welcome many non-Jewish friends and family into our lives (both husbands converted, so LOTS of non-Jews around!!!). However, it is my understanding that non-Jews were not included in the actual command of the Passover sacrifice, nor in several other observances in the Tabernacle and Temple.

 

I do consider Passover to be a foundational moment specifically for the Jewish people and its significance is often distorted by "messianic" Christian layers of interpretation. But that doesn't mean I reject anybody! I have both welcomed quite a few converts as family and friend, and continued longterm friendships with people who want to learn about Judaism but not convert. Our seders have always included "all who hunger" regardless of their current faith.

 

Ester Maria, thank you for the links! I have found good resources at the kaye7 site, but it's VERY hard to navigate with my lousy Hebrew and the help of Google Translate. :-)

I'd still suggest you comb chinuch.org... you can do with the materials what you want and some is geared towards Hebrew schools, so you might find something.

 

Also, perhaps, at mibere****.org, though you might have to poke around, and the material might be a bit young.

ETA: Oops... it's starring out the main part of the url because in English it looks impolite. Mi Beresh'it. Without the punctuation. :-))) Oy, vey!

 

Let me know what you turn up!

Edited April 10, 2011 by Jay3fer

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

 

Finally, if you are Christian and looking for a way to incorporate "Messianic" elements into your Passover observance, please read this post first.

 

Hope you find something useful here! :001_smile:

 

Has anyone else found any helpful Pesach links? :lurk5:

 

That was a GREAT blog post!!!!!!!!!!!

Stripped of its saints’ days and minor feasts, the mainstream Christian calendar is a drab one indeed. Just as stripped of its majestic Latin mass, its Greek roots, pared down to its Protestant essentials, Christian worship often simply fails to stir the soul.

This hits home so well. I have felt more comfortable and at home visiting a synagogue than an evangelical church.

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria, thank you for the links! I have found good resources at the kaye7 site, but it's VERY hard to navigate with my lousy Hebrew and the help of Google Translate. :-)

I'd still suggest you comb chinuch.org... you can do with the materials what you want and some is geared towards Hebrew schools, so you might find something.

 

I hate that site, LOL, it will not let me download anything unless I register with ALL the personal details which I would hate to share - and on the other hand, previews are tiny and barely readable, so I cannot make my own materials based on previews. :( I was referred there a lot of times, but I just cannot make up my mind about joining.

 

Thank you for suggestions anyway and thank you for the wealth of resources from your blog. :)

[Karis]

@Karis - I'm familiar with the mixed multitude (in Hebrew, the airev rav)! We welcome many non-Jewish friends and family into our lives (both husbands converted, so LOTS of non-Jews around!!!). However, it is my understanding that non-Jews were not included in the actual command of the Passover sacrifice, nor in several other observances in the Tabernacle and Temple.

 

I do consider Passover to be a foundational moment specifically for the Jewish people and its significance is often distorted by "messianic" Christian layers of interpretation.

 

Yes, but was not the provision made when Pesach was instituted?

 

It was.

 

They were there all along. Not like - Heeeere's Pesach...

 

and they all flocked. ha ha.

 

It's interesting. Their study leads some to celebrate the Holy Days. If it leads to them - why the hostility? Because it is seen as someone intruding on what is sacred or significant/ exclusive.

But Adonai already said who may come/ participate. Who will choose to go against that? To oppose Him?

 

There will be no mixing of His Truth with the pagan traditions of Christianity. Regardless of how others worship / try to blend/ misappropriate, etc...

 

He has already said what His righteous requirements are. His people are to keep themselves from being polluted by the practices of the nations around them.

 

I love the account of Yoshiyahu (M'Lakhim Bet)

[Karis]

You are correct about the separations at the Temple (which came later) and Tabernacle.

 

 

But there were many distinctions/ groupings - women, priests, tribes, etc...

Edited April 10, 2011 by Karis
typo

[Ester Maria]

It's interesting. Their study leads some to celebrate the Holy Days. If it leads to them - why the hostility? Because it is seen as someone intruding on what is sacred or significant/ exclusive.

Karis, I do not know what is your background, but this is an awfully complex issue. You have to understand that Judaism works like a certain "matrix" - I wrote about this in the past on these boards and came up with the same image to try to represent it: you have a "matrix" and there are elements to that matrix which have meaning in relation with other elements within that same complex matrix.

 

What some sects of Christianity do is that they take some isolated moments, elements, leading them OUTSIDE of the Jewish matrix (i.e. without account to the oral and rabbinical tradition of interpreting things, outside the original linguistic context, etc.) and then INTERPRET them in accordance with OTHER elements, which do NOT make part of the Jewish matrix, and thus give them a totally different light... which, from the Jewish perspective, results as a sort of appropriation and dire misinterpretation at times.

 

The consequences, especially in the last several Jewish generations which have got more "out of ghetto" (i.e. secularized), are very, very sad and go hand in hand with the trend of assimilation.

 

I do understand that this is a private Jewish problem (the fact that there is a systematic failure to provide a proper Jewish education to so many that they easily fall prey to all sorts of missionary groups, often not being able to really tell a difference), and not a Christian problem (they just interpret things how they seem to them, through a prism which Jews consider initially distorted and then further distorting of those elements too), but it does irk people a bit. Which is why I understand the OP's wording and that blog post - while I do admit the right of everybody to worship whatever wish in whichever non-violent manner they wish (appropriating, syncretism, whatnot). However, hearing the perspective of what Judaism claims Judaism to be, rather than what Christianity claims Judaism to be, is still important IMO, which is why I (secular) like her post.

[Karis]

However, hearing the perspective of what Judaism claims Judaism to be, rather than what Christianity claims Judaism to be, is still important IMO, which is why I (secular) like her post.

 

 

I agree, this is a VERY complex issue.

 

What DOES Christianity claim Judaism to be? Can we accurately define what the claims are?

 

We can look to [the mistakes of] history. But MUCH is/ has been done out of hatred and ignorance.

 

I don't think there is enough knowledge of Judaism by Christians to say.

 

Many are trying to understand and are finding/ discovering points of agreement.

 

 

My point is there are distinctions/ factions/ sects/ varying aspects of and varying interpretations ("mis" and "re") ;)

 

within both Judaism and Christianity.

 

 

Making blanket statements about what each IS is erroneous.

 

When I hear people make incorrect statements out of ignorance it irks ME. But some stuff is so ingrained that many are defensive and not open to dialogue.

[Ester Maria]

What DOES Christianity claim Judaism to be? Can we accurately define what the claims are?

 

Christianity makes a single one, and an extremely dangerous claim: it claims itself to BE Judaism.

 

And that is where the problem arises. Because Judaism claims it to be a phenomenon of disintegrating Hellenism which basically parasites on a Jewish text, but outside the Jewish cultural matrix and "text" (the oral one), and NOT a "Jewish phenomenon" in ANY way, shape or form - and this is a common rabbinical stance, not something I invented, throughout millenia, if you read Jewish scholarship. Christianity is not viewed as an offspring of Judaism, an inner Jewish phenomenon, which some only "disagreed" with. Not at all - its essence is NOT considered "Jewish".

 

Christianity, on the other hand, not only claims itself to be offspring, it claims to be a part of the SAME thread of thought and a same historical genesis of the same one phenomenon. It claims itself to BE Judaism, in other words - only at a latter stage of development.

 

And that is why Christianity is dangerous, because it flits with the language of something familiar, with familiar cultural codes, but while doing so, sinking into something completely foreign.

 

It has nothing to do with sects within Judaism, they are a new phenomenon and equally problematic as Christianity in many ways: the matrix of Judaism has been an Orthodox one for until past few generations, America and secularization. Variations among the Orthodox are completely irrelevant to the outside world and are a product of disagreements among some things which are more of the minutiae than the basics. The stance on Hellenism (see Chanuka), Edom (see Rome, see Church), Christianity as Hellenic phenomenon, etc. are pretty much as shared as they can be.

 

Variations between Christianity have included attempts to go back to "the real thing"; unfortunately, as Christianity is so removed from the Judaic mindset from the beginning, more often than not it ends up in caricature.

I still tend to consider Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy to be THE matrix of Christianity (everything further is a break-off, not a tradition), which interpreted its relationship with Judaism in the most theologically coherent fashion, but my own cultural biases enter the picture there: it certainly seems, TO ME, the most coherent matrix, in its own way (I was educated among Catholics in a classical school, so I "attended" a bit of their RE and got exposed to much of their scholarship). Maybe I am not exposed enough to Protestant thought, but I doubt it denies the essence of Christianity as the one of Judaism ("fulfilled", "continued", whatnot - but a JEWISH phenomenon, the SAME thread of thought).

 

Regarding making blanket statements, I am not making them at all - I just have a certain background, paired up with a certain linguistic and theological knowledge (a modest one, but still) to consider these things. You might not like my views, and I try not to even bring them up on obviously predominantly Christian boards because these things are a can of worms, but I think it is important to voice some concerns in threads like this.

 

Sorry OP for the sidetrack.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Karis]

Christianity makes a single one, and an extremely dangerous claim: it claims itself to BE Judaism.

 

And that is where the problem arises. Because Judaism claims it to be a phenomenon of disintegrating Hellenism which basically parasites on a Jewish text, but outside the Jewish cultural matrix and "text" (the oral one), and NOT a "Jewish phenomenon" in ANY way, shape or form - and this is a common rabbinical stance, not something I invented, throughout millenia, if you read Jewish scholarship. Christianity is not viewed as an offspring of Judaism, an inner Jewish phenomenon, which some only "disagreed" with. Not at all - its essence is NOT considered "Jewish".

 

Christianity, on the other hand, not only claims itself to be offspring, it claims to be a part of the SAME thread of thought and a same historical genesis of the same one phenomenon. It claims itself to BE Judaism, in other words - only at a latter stage of development.

 

And that is why Christianity is dangerous, because it flits with the language of something familiar, with familiar cultural codes, but while doing so, sinking into something completely foreign.

 

It has nothing to do with sects within Judaism, they are a new phenomenon and equally problematic as Christianity in many ways: the matrix of Judaism has been an Orthodox one for until past few generations, America and secularization. Variations among the Orthodox are completely irrelevant to the outside world and are a product of disagreements among some things which are more of the minutiae than the basics. The stance on Hellenism (see Chanuka), Edom (see Rome, see Church), Christianity as Hellenic phenomenon, etc. are pretty much as shared as they can be.

 

Variations between Christianity have included attempts to go back to "the real thing"; unfortunately, as Christianity is so removed from the Judaic mindset from the beginning, more often than not it ends up in caricature.

I still tend to consider Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy to be THE matrix of Christianity (everything further is a break-off, not a tradition), which interpreted its relationship with Judaism in the most theologically coherent fashion, but my own cultural biases enter the picture there: it certainly seems, TO ME, the most coherent matrix, in its own way (I was educated among Catholics in a classical school, so I "attended" a bit of their RE and got exposed to much of their scholarship). Maybe I am not exposed enough to Protestant thought, but I doubt it denies the essence of Christianity as the one of Judaism ("fulfilled", "continued", whatnot - but a JEWISH phenomenon, the SAME thread of thought).

 

Regarding making blanket statements, I am not making them at all - I just have a certain background, paired up with a certain linguistic and theological knowledge (a modest one, but still) to consider these things. You might not like my views, and I try not to even bring them up on obviously predominantly Christian boards because these things are a can of worms, but I think it is important to voice some concerns in threads like this.

 

Sorry OP for the sidetrack.

 

 

I hear you.

 

AND

 

I don't mean for you to make the mistake of saying that I was saying that you (or anyone here) was making blanket statements.

 

From what I know of Christianity - it does not claim to BE Judaism.

 

I did come across a site that said "Christianity is Jewish" and I did a double take. :001_huh:

 

 

But when I contacted them they said "There is a difference and many make the mistake of confusing what is Jewish with JudaISM.

 

No Christianity and Judiasm are not the same. Nowhere close. So saying Christianity is trying to BE Judiasm is an incorrect statement.

 

And if they say it is not the same. What Jew can say they are saying it is?

 

Our biases are problematic. Cultural and religious. They are clearly seen because they are displayed. even if it's subtle.

 

That's why I felt the need to clarify the fact that there were others with Israel during the time of the Exodus.

[Ester Maria]

From what I know of Christianity - it does not claim to BE Judaism.

The initial assumption that the whole of Christianity rests on is that Christianity is a sort of fulfillment of Judaism AND the continuation of the same phenomenon.

 

Every. single. theologically literate Christian I have ever talked to (including numerous priests) agrees with that. You might be caught by my unusual wording - I like to get to the essence of things - since it is usually not expressed in that particular way, but fundamentally, Christianity considers itself not a thread of "thought" that starts ex nihilo with Jesus (THAT would mean that it is a fully independent phenomenon with no relationship whatsoever to Judaism), but which is in a very definite relationship with what it considers its background: historical Judaism. And that relationship is the one of equality: "we" ARE "they", "they" just do not "get it". That is the historical Christian stance, like it or not: and the other name for that is claiming to BE Judaism in a very particular form. The whole of Christianity is one big relationship with Judaism. You cannot deny it. And in that relationship, they do not negate historical Judaism, but consider itself (and not the continuation of historical Judaism) to be the correct continuation. Ergo, claiming to be Judaism. You must read very carefully what I write, I am extremely makpid on my language when I discuss these things: do not fall for what seem to be bombastic claims ("Christianity claims to be Judaism."), but consider philosophically and theologically what I mean by that.

 

If you find me an example of a Christian denomination which does not consider itself a continuation of historical Judaism in its "true" form, I will consider myself corrected - but until then, I have to insist on this particular point.

So saying Christianity is trying to BE Judiasm is an incorrect statement.

It is not.

 

It hits right to the heart of the problem, and to the heart of the assimilation problem within Christianity today. Seriously. The whole thing is a lot more philosophically dangerous than it appears at first sight, I sort of understand people who shelter their children from this particular philosophy until they are well-versed in Judaism. It is very seductive.

 

Do you read Hebrew? I can refer you to several articles / debates about this.

[Karis]

I like to keep things simple.

 

I get that you are an intellectual.

 

Most Christians believe they are adopted into Israel/grafted in. Some may believe they ARE Israel. I really don't know.

 

Also, as far as Christianity being an extension of Judaism - I don't think many even want to take on what that means. Most see the practices of Judaism as unnecessary so they clearly make the distinction of being different.

 

An example of what some Christians believe would be...

 

There are two siblings one natural born and one adopted.

 

The family gathers to celebrate a feast.

 

The natural born child says you can't because you are not part of this family and don't look anything like us.

 

(It was ok when they were just visiting and curious - an outsider - but they are staying??!?!)

 

The adopted child doesn't want to be YOU - in fact is quite pleased to be THEM and is just happy and thankful to be adopted by a loving Father and brought into a family so rich in meaningful expresson.

 

They came out of a system of beliefs that was counterfeit.

 

This is why I addressed the issue concerning Pesach. Not to do this "dance."

 

The history is messy and ugly and sad. and just... WRONG

 

No one denies that.

[Hunter]

Finally, if you are Christian and looking for a way to incorporate "Messianic" elements into your Passover observance, please read this post first.

 

 

From the above link, "And PLEASE – only use our words, symbols, images in the ways we mean them.* They are OUR “information property†and we don’t take kindly to theft."

 

This is pretty strongly worded :-0 Should Christians start their own thread, instead of participating in this one?

[justamouse]

I do consider Passover to be a foundational moment specifically for the Jewish people and its significance is often distorted by "messianic" Christian layers of interpretation. But that doesn't mean I reject anybody! I have both welcomed quite a few converts as family and friend, and continued longterm friendships with people who want to learn about Judaism but not convert. Our Seders have always included "all who hunger" regardless of their current faith.

 

 

 

:D I normally get myself an invitation to my girl friend's Seder.

 

Esther, I don't consider my faith equal to Judaisim-at all (and, in all honesty, I've never heard that before, but I'm not Jewish and Christians don't tell me what they might say to you).

 

And yet I cannot deny that Christians see the crucifixion of Christ as the fulfillment of the law or that Christ's last supper was just another Seder. I DO think you are correst, it wasn't started ex nihilo, and

 

And that relationship is the one of equality: "we" ARE "they", "they" just do not "get it".

 

I can absolutely see where the, "Hey, we're the same, brothers, adopted Jews, too!" thing is totally insulting.

Edited April 10, 2011 by justamouse

[Ester Maria]

And yet I cannot deny that Christians see the crucifixion of Christ as the fulfillment of the law or that Christ's last supper was just another Seder. I DO think you are correst, it wasn't started ex nihilo, and

All of that is perfectly fine with me, I would not like to come across as not Christian-friendly (hardly, since I have such a soft spot for Catholics, because of Italy, Latin and all :tongue_smilie:) - as long as we all know what we are talking about. Yes, Christianity will consider itself a necessary continuation of that thread of thought. No, Judaism will not consider Christianity a "correct" continuation at all. Perfectly fine for both parties, they may part their ways in peace on theology and be great neighbors and friends! :)

 

I was just reacting to the OP's blog post and trying to explain why a lot of people do view it that way and why "Hebrew-flavored Christianity" (or Christianity in general) is, philosophically, such a problematic thing for "seeking" Jewish youngsters without a solid Jewish education: it flirts with something so familiar, yet it takes you to what, from the Jewish perspective, is actually a complete opposite. A lot of people have very strong feelings about the whole "flirting" with Jewish imagery, Hebrew, elements of Judaism taken out of context and ascribed new meanings... even if, of course, everybody has a right to do as they find fit for their family and community. Because of all that, I thought OP's initiative - to share with the members here what Jewish sources say about Pesach - was laudable.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Jay3fer]

From the above link, "And PLEASE – only use our words, symbols, images in the ways we mean them.* They are OUR “information property†and we don’t take kindly to theft."

 

This is pretty strongly worded :-0 Should Christians start their own thread, instead of participating in this one?

 

I agree that it's strongly worded - but it's not exactly a threat, more like frustration. If you quote it out of context, it sounds like I'm threatening something... when really (trust me, or ask my kids! :lol:), I have absolutely no power. Hence, the frustration.

 

Should Passover-observing Christians start their own thread? I'd like to think Christians can learn from resources on Jewish sites, just as I've incorporated some Exodus information into our Pesach lapbook from Christian sites.

 

You will probably find good, accurate, agenda-free information about Passover from Jewish sites, so if anybody is honestly looking for that, they should feel free to use these links and share their own.

 

I haven't dived into the Ester Maria / Karis discussion because I think they both presented their views honestly and fairly. But I will add here that as benevolent as it sounds to Christians, the "grafted olive branch" image can be upsetting to Jews. (I had this discussion with my husband about a million years ago - he's Jewish now!)

 

If you don't feel your tree NEEDS another branch, if that branch is as foreign as, say, a cherry tree might be to an olive tree, then all grafting is going to do is open a big painful wound that takes years to heal. The olive yield suffers (I'd imagine), the cherries would suffer and might not even bear fruit. From a botanical perspective, it would be a nightmare, and from a spiritual perspective, you end up with a hodge-podge that makes nobody any more fulfilled.

 

I love Judaism. Absolutely adore it! That's why I share my materials, on an Internet that I know is mostly not Jewish. That's why I am teaching a convert in my real life (and both my husbands converted). It may be why I'm homeschooling; I love sharing this stuff with my kids and others'.

 

By the way, I also love Catholicism. If I wasn't so happy being Jewish, I might consider Catholicism. Not so much Protestantism, maybe because they shoot themselves in the foot too often with political correctness. Catholicism, its sacramental vision of reality, feels friendly and familiar to my 100-blessings-a-day Jewish soul.

 

But it's NOT Judaism. If Catholics or Protestants want to learn more about Judaism, that's beautiful. But I get uncomfortable if they try to tell me they have the same thing - or that they are PART of the same thing, because the Torah tells me I am a messenger, a light unto nations, and I'm going to share that light, shout it out, as long as I've got breath in me.

 

We are all part of God's creation, forged in His image. May this upcoming feast of Passover unite us in recognizing our fragility, our dependence on him, and our liberation from any type of service but that of the Creator.

 

And here's a cute video to calm everybody down! :001_smile:

[Karis]

If you don't feel your tree NEEDS another branch, if that branch is as foreign as, say, a cherry tree might be to an olive tree, then all grafting is going to do is open a big painful wound that takes years to heal. The olive yield suffers (I'd imagine), the cherries would suffer and might not even bear fruit. From a botanical perspective, it would be a nightmare, and from a spiritual perspective, you end up with a hodge-podge that makes nobody any more fulfilled.

 

 

 

 

 

Can one branch say whether or not a tree should have another branch? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Who's to say that that which is grafted is NOT a wild olive "shoot"?

 

In that case, it would not be so foreign.

 

But yes, olives and cherries would definitely not work!! :lol:

Edited April 12, 2011 by Karis
word choice

[Rivka]

Thanks for the resources, and I looove the post about Christians celebrating Jewish feasts.

 

We are Unitarian-Universalists. Passover is a holiday that my husband and I love, respect, and find deeply meaningful. But we also recognize that it is not a holiday that is for us. We're happy and grateful that Jewish friends have invited us to share their Seder, so that we can participate in their tradition as guests and reflect on the lessons that all people can take away from its themes of suffering and liberation. But we would never make our own Seder, any more than - not being Christian - we would take Communion.

 

 

 

I was thinking about this last year at Seder time, and this is something I wrote then:

 

I was raised in a mainline Protestant, liberal Christian tradition. I was baptized when I was a toddler. I went to church every week. But I also, when I was a kid, felt a strong sense of connection and affinity for Judaism. At that time in my life, I thought of myself as ethnically "half Jewish." My father was raised in a nonreligious household, but his father was Jewish, the son of immigrant garment workers who lived on the Lower East Side in New York. My father identified as ethnically Jewish. And in Boston in the 1940s and 1950s, other people also identified my father as Jewish.

 

So I grew up with an interest in Jewish things. I sometimes went to temple with my friend on Friday nights, if I was sleeping over. She tried to teach me a little Hebrew; I can still write my name, but that's about all I ever learned. I read extensively in the children's/YA genre of "heroic Jewish children hide from Nazis." At that time, in the late 70s and early 80s, mainline Protestant churches like mine took a very respectful and interested attitude toward Judaism, in a belief that we had a strong shared heritage and that their history was our history. We sometimes held a Seder at church out of just that sense of shared heritage.

 

As I grew older, I started to see things in a more complicated light. I realized that by Jewish law, not only was I not "half Jewish," but I wasn't Jewish at all - and neither was my father. Judaism passes through the maternal line. I realized that even if my Jewish ethnic heritage came from my mother's side, my baptism and churchgoing would have made me really not-Jewish. And eventually I came to understand that the idea that Christians and Jews share a substantial common heritage and history, and have significant religious commonalities, is a belief that is much more common and more strongly held among Christians than among Jews. I started to consider my childhood, um, Jewphilia, in the light of cultural appropriation. And I felt awkward.

 

I really like Passover. I love the story and the rituals. I think every religion should have a major holiday focused on oppression and liberation (and wine). But Judaism is not an evangelical, O-hai-let's-share-the-good-news-with-everyone-and-get-them-to-be-like-us religion. Passover is for Jews, not for everyone who thinks Passover is cool. So it was awesome that our friends invited us to share their Seder. It was deeply meaningful to us. But I think that makes us "lucky people who got to share in their tradition," not "people who also have a right to this tradition."

[historymatters]

The Pharisees, up till the Roman edicts and destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, were very "evangelical", being vigorous about promoting their school of thought. Historically, that is accurate. Between G-d Fearers and proselytes, their numbers grew. Plus, to be a "light unto the nations", the purpose is to reveal the One G-d of Israel to the world. However, the persecution of the Jewish people by the Romans & later the Roman church has reduced those activities.

 

Adonai declared in His Torah that these are His Moedim: His Appointed Times, not Jewish Feasts; they have been entrusted to The Jewish people; but just like the Land of Israel belongs to Him, so do the Times:

1 ADONAI said to Moshe, 2 "Tell the people of Isra'el: 'The designated times of ADONAI which you are to proclaim as holy convocations are my designated times. Vayikra (Lev.) 23: 1-2

4 "'These are the designated times of ADONAI, the holy convocations you are to proclaim at their designated times Vayikra (Lev. )23:4

44 Thus Moshe announced to the people of Isra'el the designated times of ADONAI. Vayikra (Lev.) 23:44

 

As for who is to listen and obey the Torah (instructions):

 

14 If a foreigner stays with you - or whoever may be with you, through all your generations - and he wants to bring an offering made by fire as a fragrant aroma for ADONAI, he is to do the same as you. 15 For this community there will be the same law for you as for the foreigner living with you; this is a permanent regulation through all your generations; the foreigner is to be treated the same way before ADONAI as yourselves. 16 The same Torah and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.'" B'Midbar(Numbers )15:14-16

 

12. Assemble the people-the men, the women, the little ones and the foreigners you have in your towns -so that they can hear, learn, fear ADONAI your God and take care to obey all the words of this Torah;13 and so that their children, who have not known, can hear and learn to fear ADONAI your God, for as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Yarden to possess. D'Varim (Deut. )31:12, 13

 

Rivka, as for who is Jewish; true, Rabbinical law declares that one is only Jewish if the mother is Jewish. That makes sense historically as Jewish women were being raped and kidnapped by gentile men. The Jewish authorities needed a way to recognize who was Jewish. Obviously, everyone knows who the mother was. Scripture shows a different standard. The Hebrew lineage is outlined in the Tanakh as being paternal. Abraham (after the name change) was declared that he would be the Father of many Nations (including the Arab nations), with descendants as numerous as the stars; Isaac, his promised son, produced Jacob, named Israel, as the father of the 12 Tribes that began the entire Hebrew peoples. In the book of Ruth, a Moabitess, declared to her MIL, Naomi: 16 But Rut said, "Don't press me to leave you and stop following you; for wherever you go, I will go; and wherever you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God will be my God. Ultimately marrying Boaz; here is the ancestry of King David of the Tribe of Judah:21 Salmon was the father of Bo'az, Bo'az was the father of 'Oved, 22 'Oved was the father of Jesse, and Jesse was the father of David.

My husband is Jewish because his father is Jewish; the same way that he would be if it had been his mother. My children are Jewish as well, according to the standard of Adonai. I am not a Christian. I am a spiritual child of Avraham; however, that doesn't make me Jewish. My identity is one of a gentile here on earth, but spiritually, in HaShem's view, I am part of the Commonwealth of Israel, as the foreigner described in the Torah. My dd is adopted into our family, but she is still a female, not a male like her brother and she is still bi-racial, even though she's part of our family. But she shares and is a full member with all the benefits, family heritage and burdens of being part of our family.

 

 

As for the tree; it's the wild olive tree branches being grafted into a cultivated, rooted olive tree; not two completely different trees. The wild branches become part of Israel, Israel doesn't become part of the wild branches as Christianity has maintained should happen through the centuries. It saddens me desperately if a Jewish person chooses to abandon their G-d given identity when they except the Jewish Messiah, as that is not supported anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

Christianity is not Jewish; throughout history they've attempted to replace it (as in Replacement Theology). It's first century roots are established in Judaism; the talmidim of Yeshua weren't trying to start a new religion. Jeremiah 31:31 "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI. 33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more." How can the Torah be abolished if HaShem was going to "write it on their hearts"? There would be nothing to write. They were just another sect of Judaism of the time - one of about 14 sects.

 

 

It is pure arrogance for a Christian to declare themselves an authority on Judaism. Historically, the church hasn't considered herself as an equal at all, but of super-seccesionist. I am amazed at the affinity for Catholicism that exists in some of the posts here as it is the mother of Replacement Theology (though not the only one that has its theology tied up in it in some way) and root of Jewish oppression throughout history; infecting Martin Luther & his teachings, as he began the transition to protestantism. I love the beauty of Liturgy and ritual and traditions; as long as they support G-d's Instructions for worshipping Him. I can understand the attraction to the beauty of the rituals and structured prayers; after all, both Catholicism and Talmudic Judaism rose adjacent to one other, so they have many similarities in style and extra-Scriptural law (extra-Scriptural doesn't equate with anti-Scripture, I want to make that clear). However, it is the Protestant denominations, mainly from the 20th C. on, that pay the most attention to the Nation of Israel, support her prosperity and defend G-d's People.

 

I hope Christians will consider your links; I am familiar with them and use some of them myself. However, the link to the blog post was a turn-off and didn't promote unity. Her language was unnecessarily inflammatory and her tone condescending; not a reflection of your desire to be a light. Her blog post does you a disservice and distracts from the good that you were trying to do.

 

I apologize for dragging this out in such a long post; I didn't originally intend to do so. I love the Jewish people so; my heart is one of Ruth who cries out that "Your people will be my people and your God will be my God". My Messiah is Jewish, no matter His depiction as otherwise thru the centuries. This is complex due to the actions of people over the past 2000 yrs.+. The relationship of Jews and gentiles isn't as complex in G-d's Scriptures as rabbis, popes, priests, & pastors have made it out to be. I don't believe in a hodge-podge creature, but a people united as echad; bringing together of many into one. But which Judaism do you think should be the one? Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanist; what about the hard-core feminist views? Commentary is insightful & interesting, however you must go to the Source & we can agree to disagree on some traditions of man without accusations of who is really being Jewish.

 

I understand, & share the frustration of the mis-use and misunderstandings of the symbols of Judaism (a cross in a Star of David vexes me). Those who want to know more about the Appointed Times of The L-rd should study Jewish sources, showing respect, if not agreement, with the centuries of traditions and insights of the Sages; as well as Messianic Jewish sources (which is different than Torah-Observant and Hebrew Christians, and gentile believers are not Hebrew Christians). The Rabbis through the centuries don't necessarily have better answers than Messianic ones. There's always been heated and respectful debate within the Jewish community without denegration.

Extremely important is the best possible attempts at speaking Hebrew correctly in the Blessings (but is that Ashkenazi or Sephardi pronunciation? With/without vowels? See how crazy you can get?:)); it's vital that if you're going to speak the blessings and observe the Feasts, then you do your homework. Learn with a Hebraic mindset, not a Greek one; HaShem revealed Himself through the Hebrew Scriptures & through mostly Hebrew authors, from the Torah, Nevi'im, K'tuvim to the Brit Chadashah . The entire thing is Jewish book.

 

Thank you taking the time to read my novel and I pray I didn't offend anyone too much (preferably not at all) or deter the moderator from posting my words. I look forward to many more opportunities for sharing Hebraic methods and resources for teaching our children!

 

Shalom,

 

Rachel

Edited April 12, 2011 by Messianicmom

[Karis]

The Pharisees, up till the Roman edicts and destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, were very "evangelical", being vigorous about promoting their school of thought. Historically, that is accurate. Between G-d Fearers and proselytes, their numbers grew. Plus, to be a "light unto the nations", the purpose is to reveal the One G-d of Israel to the world. However, the persecution of the Jewish people by the Romans & later the Roman church has reduced those activities.

 

Adonai declared in His Torah that these are His Moedim: His Appointed Times, not Jewish Feasts; they have been entrusted to The Jewish people; but just like the Land of Israel belongs to Him, so do the Times:

1 ADONAI said to Moshe, 2 "Tell the people of Isra'el: 'The designated times of ADONAI which you are to proclaim as holy convocations are my designated times. Vayikra (Lev.) 23: 1-2

4 "'These are the designated times of ADONAI, the holy convocations you are to proclaim at their designated times Vayikra (Lev. )23:4

44 Thus Moshe announced to the people of Isra'el the designated times of ADONAI. Vayikra (Lev.) 23:44

 

As for who is to listen and obey the Torah (instructions):

 

14 If a foreigner stays with you - or whoever may be with you, through all your generations - and he wants to bring an offering made by fire as a fragrant aroma for ADONAI, he is to do the same as you. 15 For this community there will be the same law for you as for the foreigner living with you; this is a permanent regulation through all your generations; the foreigner is to be treated the same way before ADONAI as yourselves. 16 The same Torah and standard of judgment will apply to both you and the foreigner living with you.'" B'Midbar(Numbers )15:14-16

 

12. Assemble the people-the men, the women, the little ones and the foreigners you have in your towns -so that they can hear, learn, fear ADONAI your God and take care to obey all the words of this Torah;13 and so that their children, who have not known, can hear and learn to fear ADONAI your God, for as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Yarden to possess. D'Varim (Deut. )31:12, 13

 

 

Scripture shows a different standard. The Hebrew lineage is outlined in the Tanakh as being paternal. Abraham (after the name change) was declared that he would be the Father of many Nations (including the Arab nations), with descendants as numerous as the stars; Isaac, his promised son, produced Jacob, named Israel, as the father of the 12 Tribes that began the entire Hebrew peoples. In the book of Ruth, a Moabitess, declared to her MIL, Naomi: 16 But Rut said, "Don't press me to leave you and stop following you; for wherever you go, I will go; and wherever you stay, I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God will be my God. Ultimately marrying Boaz; here is the ancestry of King David of the Tribe of Judah:21 Salmon was the father of Bo'az, Bo'az was the father of 'Oved, 22 'Oved was the father of Jesse, and Jesse was the father of David.

 

 

As for the tree; it's the wild olive tree branches being grafted into a cultivated, rooted olive tree; not two completely different trees. The wild branches become part of Israel, Israel doesn't become part of the wild branches as Christianity has maintained should happen through the centuries. ;)

 

It saddens me desperately if a Jewish person chooses to abandon their G-d given identity when they except the Jewish Messiah, as that is not supported anywhere in the Scriptures.

 

Christianity is not Jewish; throughout history they've attempted to replace it (as in Replacement Theology). It's first century roots are established in Judaism; the talmidim of Yeshua weren't trying to start a new religion. Jeremiah 31:31 "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI. 33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more." How can the Torah be abolished if HaShem was going to "write it on their hearts"? There would be nothing to write. They were just another sect of Judaism of the time - one of about 14 sects.

 

 

It is pure arrogance for a Christian to declare themselves an authority on Judaism. Historically, the church hasn't considered herself as an equal at all, but of super-seccesionist. I am amazed at the affinity for Catholicism that exists in some of the posts here as it is the mother of Replacement Theology (though not the only one that has its theology tied up in it in some way) and root of Jewish oppression throughout history; infecting Martin Luther & his teachings, as he began the transition to protestantism. I love the beauty of Liturgy and ritual and traditions; as long as they support G-d's Instructions for worshipping Him. I can understand the attraction to the beauty of the rituals and structured prayers; after all, both Catholicism and Talmudic Judaism rose adjacent to one other, so they have many similarities in style and extra-Scriptural law (extra-Scriptural doesn't equate with anti-Scripture, I want to make that clear). However, it is the Protestant denominations, mainly from the 20th C. on, that pay the most attention to the Nation of Israel, support her prosperity and defend G-d's People.

 

I hope Christians will consider your links; I am familiar with them and use some of them myself. However, the link to the blog post was a turn-off and didn't promote unity. Her language was unnecessarily inflammatory and her tone condescending; not a reflection of your desire to be a light. Her blog post does you a disservice and distracts from the good that you were trying to do.

 

I apologize for dragging this out in such a long post; I didn't originally intend to do so. I love the Jewish people so; my heart is one of Ruth who cries out that "Your people will be my people and your God will be my God". My Messiah is Jewish, no matter His depiction as otherwise thru the centuries. This is complex due to the actions of people over the past 2000 yrs.+. The relationship of Jews and gentiles isn't as complex in G-d's Scriptures as rabbis, popes, priests, & pastors have made it out to be. I don't believe in a hodge-podge creature, but a people united as echad; bringing together of many into one. But which Judaism do you think should be the one? Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or Humanist; what about the hard-core feminist views? Commentary is insightful & interesting, however you must go to the Source & we can agree to disagree on some traditions of man without accusations of who is really being Jewish.

 

Those who want to know more about the Appointed Times of The L-rd should study Jewish sources, showing respect, if not agreement, with the centuries of traditions and insights of the Sages; as well as Messianic Jewish sources (which is different than Torah-Observant and Hebrew Christians, and gentile believers are not Hebrew Christians).

 

Extremely important is the best possible attempts at speaking Hebrew correctly in the Blessings (but is that Ashkenazi or Sephardi pronunciation? With/without vowels? See how crazy you can get?:)); it's vital that if you're going to speak the blessings and observe the Feasts, then you do your homework. Learn with a Hebraic mindset, not a Greek one; HaShem revealed Himself through the Hebrew Scriptures & through mostly Hebrew authors, from the Torah, Nevi'im, K'tuvim to the Brit Chadashah . The entire thing is Jewish book.

 

Thank you taking the time to read my novel and I pray I didn't offend anyone too much (preferably not at all) or deter the moderator from posting my words. I look forward to many more opportunities for sharing Hebraic methods and resources for teaching our children!

 

Shalom,

 

Rachel

 

 

:001_smile:

 

This is so good! I did not copy all of it - system wouldn't let me (Too many words) ha ha .

 

But thank you so much for posting it.

[Jay3fer]

I was thinking about this last year at Seder time, and this is something I wrote then:

 

:hurray: Very well-written. Thank you.

[Ester Maria]

Beautifully worded post, Rivka - thank you. :)

 

As for Rachel, we will just have to agree to disagree - suffice to say that what you write is a sacrilege to my eyes (from a purely visceral reaction to an intellectual level) while I am sure that you would find my views equally appalling. I will continue to warn and educate my children against views like yours and Karis', while I am sure that you will do at least some of the same with your children when it comes to the 'institution' of rabbinical Judaism that we inherit today and when it comes to what you probably perceive as its unjust historical 'monopoly' over the interpretation of an ancient text and oral tradition (I have known people who held such views).

 

A few things, though, which I cannot leave unanswered:

 

1. Talmud is not "extra-Scriptural" law. Jewish "Scripture" is two-fold, the written and the oral 'text', and they are considered equivalent parties, two sides of the same coin. There is no dichotomy there.

. 1.1 There are such things as rabbinical extensions or folk traditions which have meanwhile turned normative, but that is a different discussion from whether there is an oral law which is not considered an "addition".

. 1.2 There have been, historically, sects which have negated the oral law. The rabbinical tradition still holds differently and has their own answers to those that negate the oral law.

 

2. Paternal lineage is relevant to the transmission of certain statuses / tribal minutiae, not to the transmission of Jewishness as such. I know of a convert whose father was a Levite, but he is not considered a Levite in spite of his father because his mother was not Jewish... and as conversion is essentially a type of rebirth which 'cuts off' previous ethnic and family heritage, he is even less of a Levite now than he was before. In the perspective of the Orthodox rabbinical tradition, of course.

. 2.1 There are non-Orthodox sects which accept people with a Jewish father as well.

. 2.2 Orthodoxy does not consider those sects valid theologically nor, consequently, their conversions valid or children born into families where maternal lineage cannot be traced back even Jewish (nor, consequently, their marriages valid, further children Jewish, etc. - it is a very sad thing and many people get shocked and hurt upon learning that they are not considered Jewish by the Orthodox criteria). Which is another reason why prospective converts are advised to convert within Orthodoxy.

. 2.2.1 There are 'flavors' to Orthodoxy too, but much less disagreements regarding some 'basic' things than between Orthodoxy and non-Orthodox forms of Judaism: they disagree about the amount of inclusion of secular culture, certain legal minutiae or general religious stringencies and philosophical outlook, but the shared basics are there.

. 2.2.1.1 Believe it or not, many (most?) Orthodox Jews consider many (most?) other forms of Orthodoxy somehow valid too. Maybe not their own choice or the ideal into which they would like to marry their children, but still historically and theologically "fortified" enough to pass as valid, etc. You need to understand some inner workings of Judaism to get this point, but there is an idea that there are multiple possible valid options too, which maybe appear mutually exclusive, but are not always. This does not mean that "anything goes", but even rabbinically there is a place for some diversity.

. 2.2.1.1.1 And there is also such a thing as intellectual recognition of Jewish Orthodoxy, but selective observance (or non-observance, for that matter). We are in this group - refusing to mingle with non-Orthodox streams or be considered to agree with their theology, but at the same time, reluctant to live a fully religious lifestyle and having many intellectual doubts about the basic premises of the system (the existence of God, matan Torah, etc.)... rather than about the system which follows, rabbinically, if we accept those basic premises. So there is such a thing as teaching Orthodoxy as a sort of "Jewish outlook", but leaving the amount of observance or questions of religiosity or atheism to an individual.

 

3. OP's blog post was an intellectually honest piece of writing which does not sugarcoat things nor apply standards of "unity" for a religious system which is not interested in full religious "unity" with the rest of the world. Many people are having a hard time swallowing that thing, but Judaism as we know it today is pretty much built on the idea of "the nation which shall dwell alone". Many Jewish holidays are essentially a celebration of that uniqueness (which makes Christians celebrating those a fine irony of its sort). Judaism is a binary system: there is Israel, and there are umot haolam. Double standards as well with regards to expectations (crazy ones at that: probably the only religion out there which makes it easier for you to enter their 'next world' if you are not a member of the club than if you are).

. 3.1 This does not say that other people do not have a right to celebrate whatever they wish in whichever (non-violent) fashion they wish. What they do not have a right to is an expectation that other people will not consider those things wrong and actively warn against them.

 

4. Hebrew is always pronounced with the vowels, while we may discuss as to whether they are to be written or not, in which circumstances yes and in which no. The differences in pronunciation which are a product of two millenia of galut are not theologically binding in any way.

. 4.1 The problem arises with people who have not bothered to learn that, say, yud hey vav key (yes, I purposely misspelled the last one) is not to be pronounced, that certain numbers are to be calculated on a tet basis and not a yud basis, etc.

 

5. One can have a cultural affinity for Catholicism without subscribing to their theology - or, even, consider their theology the most sound one within Christianity, but still without subscribing. That is called "entertaining the idea without accepting it".

 

6. God did not reveal Himself through the Bible, from a classical Jewish perspective. Rather, He revealed Himself AND gave the Torah. Big difference.

. 6.1 Not everything an ethnic Jew writes is automatically "a Jewish book", a theologically acceptable one, let alone a binding one. Nobody is denying Jesus' ethnicity. People are denying the soundness of his ideas and him being Messiah with what they consider Judaism. And some other people, like you, are accepting of those idea others deny. So we get differences, and that is fine.

 

Rachel, since I see that you are a new member, I hope you will have a good time on these boards and find a lot of resources and support for your educating your children, in spite of the theological differences which are bound to arise on a place with such a multitude. :D

Peace to everyone.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Ester Maria

[micheller1]

My father is jewish and my mother is not. I know in my soul that I am a jew but I know to be recognized as a jew I must convert. I will one day. Life is a complicated process :) BUT I do live a jewish lifestyle and raise my kids as such. We are not STRICTLY observant as my father who became an observant hasidic jew about 14/15 years ago but we are not messianic christians but jews.

 

Maybe not recognized by jewish law but jews nonetheless ....

 

As a side note to the OP, thanks for the sites you recommended :)

[Karis]

My response to this thread was never meant to breed contention.

 

I was simply stating a FACT that is often overlooked.

[laughing lioness]

Thanks for the info and the links :001_smile:

[Violet Crown]

I just wish someone would write a booklet, or blog article, or something called "So You've Been Invited to a Seder." And it would include things like "Why not to bring a bag of goldfish crackers to keep the toddler happy" and "Since you can't seem to remember from year to year, here's how the handwashing part is done" and "Benefits of helping clean up the week before: free cake mixes."

[Spy Car]

I just wish someone would write a booklet, or blog article, or something called "So You've Been Invited to a Seder." And it would include things like "Why not to bring a bag of goldfish crackers to keep the toddler happy" and "Since you can't seem to remember from year to year, here's how the handwashing part is done" and "Benefits of helping clean up the week before: free cake mixes."

 

:lol:

 

Bill

[Jen in PA]

I just wish someone would write a booklet, or blog article, or something called "So You've Been Invited to a Seder." And it would include things like "Why not to bring a bag of goldfish crackers to keep the toddler happy" and "Since you can't seem to remember from year to year, here's how the handwashing part is done" and "Benefits of helping clean up the week before: free cake mixes."

 

:laugh:

[historymatters]

I just wish someone would write a booklet, or blog article, or something called "So You've Been Invited to a Seder." And it would include things like "Why not to bring a bag of goldfish crackers to keep the toddler happy" and "Since you can't seem to remember from year to year, here's how the handwashing part is done" and "Benefits of helping clean up the week before: free cake mixes."

 

 

:lol:, too

 

*though you may enjoy free wine more than the cake?:001_smile:

[Jay3fer]

@Sharon:

Perhaps inspired by your post, I did write a guide the other day called "Going to Shul? A Guide for Goyim!" (the word goyim simply means NATIONS and is not an offensive; in fact, it is sometimes used in the Torah to describe the Jews themselves). Shul is synagogue, so if you're ever invited to a synagogue service, perhaps you can keep it in mind. ;-)))

 

I just wish someone would write a booklet, or blog article, or something called "So You've Been Invited to a Seder." And it would include things like "Why not to bring a bag of goldfish crackers to keep the toddler happy" and "Since you can't seem to remember from year to year, here's how the handwashing part is done" and "Benefits of helping clean up the week before: free cake mixes."

[Jay3fer]

@Michelle:

There are many MANY people in your position and I can't imagine how hard that is, feeling connected but also feeling, perhaps, like Jews should acknowledge that connection more fully or wholeheartedly.

I do know conversion is a very difficult thing. I'm happy that you're keeping yourself and your kids connected to their Jewish roots - it will make the conversion process much simpler if you do decide eventually to go ahead with it.

Good luck and happy Pesach! :001_smile:

 

My father is jewish and my mother is not. I know in my soul that I am a jew but I know to be recognized as a jew I must convert. I will one day. Life is a complicated process :) BUT I do live a jewish lifestyle and raise my kids as such. We are not STRICTLY observant as my father who became an observant hasidic jew about 14/15 years ago but we are not messianic christians but jews.

 

Maybe not recognized by jewish law but jews nonetheless ....

 

As a side note to the OP, thanks for the sites you recommended :)

[JennyD]

Your blog looks very interesting, Jay3fer. I look forward to looking through it more carefully after the holiday!

[Violet Crown]

@Sharon:

Perhaps inspired by your post, I did write a guide the other day called "Going to Shul? A Guide for Goyim!" (the word goyim simply means NATIONS and is not an offensive; in fact, it is sometimes used in the Torah to describe the Jews themselves). Shul is synagogue, so if you're ever invited to a synagogue service, perhaps you can keep it in mind. ;-)))

Thanks for that post! There were many points that I tucked away in my memory for future use.

 

Don't worry about offense; actually, having grown up in Texas, I'd heard the word "goyim" but had always thought it was some sort of Yankee slang for something or other.

 

Now what was offensive was the discovery at my first Seder that my last name, which has a lovely Irish meaning, is Hebrew for "cattle plague." :D

[historymatters]

• Should Passover-observing Christians start their own thread? I'd like to think Christians can learn from resources on Jewish sites, just as I've incorporated some Exodus information into our Pesach lapbook from Christian sites.
  
• You will probably find good, accurate, agenda-free information about Passover from Jewish sites, so if anybody is honestly looking for that, they should feel free to use these links and share their own
  

I agree that "Christians can learn from resources on Jewish sites", and they should seek info. there; but with all due respect, they all have an agenda, too. From Hassidic sites to Humanist sites; they all present it from their own theological viewpoint.

So, as with anything, go into it with the open eyes that the position of the presenters will have a bent in their favor; it's like that in everything. Personally, I like much on Chabad.org and use thier online materials and videos for my children.

 

Rachel

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Beautifully worded post, Rivka - thank you.

 

 

A few things, though, which I cannot leave unanswered:

 

1. Talmud is not "extra-Scriptural" law. Jewish "Scripture" is two-fold, the written and the oral 'text', and they are considered equivalent parties, two sides of the same coin. There is no dichotomy there..

 

I would think that this would be easy for all Christians to grasp, messianic or not, because of this verse:

 

 

2Thessalonians 2:15 (New American Standard Bible)

 

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

 

 

 

 

[micheller1]

Thanks Jennifer :)

I figure we don't really need a law to tell us what's in our soul. We know. We feel it.

Have a great and blessed Pesach!

[historymatters]

Thanks Jennifer :)

I figure we don't really need a law to tell us what's in our soul. We know. We feel it.

Have a great and blessed Pesach!

 

 

:iagree:

 

Rachel

[historymatters]

I would think that this would be easy for all Christians to grasp, messianic or not, because of this verse:

 

 

Since I've seen this twice, I'd thought I would try to clarify that there is no such thing as a Messianic Christian, it's actually a contradiction in terms; you're either a Christian or you're a Messianic Jew or Gentile.

 

As for the 2 Thess. quote, that's a good one. It was coming from a committed, zealous Jewish man, from the Tribe of Benjamin, a Pharasee, a student of Gamaliel, originally a persecutor of any believers of Yeshua, instructing the Community he established (as a Pharasee he was well trained in proselyte management).

The "traditions" are those of Judaism, not Christianity, that he passed down to them to follow, which would have included those from the Talmud, or the "Traditions of the Elders", that he believed did not contradict the written text (and from the perspective that with any traditions, assuring the heart is in the actions, that they are not just external only) He went back to Abraham, not just Moses. He lived by example and was that Community's rabbinical authority.

 

Thanks for bringing that one up; it shows another point of agreement.:001_smile:

 

Rachel

Edited April 17, 2011 by Messianicmom

[historymatters]

Although this is a direct response to Ester Maria's post, I hope any other visitors will take the time to read the originals and their responses.

I appreciate the time, Ester Maria, that you took to respond to my post. Thanks again for your welcome; I am well accustomed to a variety of opinions in all of my relationships, be they online or in person. I hope you will honor me with reading my response to you; my words are in bold for ease of reading, not a display of importance. I am dividing into two messages. I won't be replying any more on this specifically, so as not to further deviate from the OPs original purpose.

As for Rachel, we will just have to agree to disagree - suffice to say that what you write is a sacrilege to my eyes (from a purely visceral reaction to an intellectual level) while I am sure that you would find my views equally appalling. On some things, yes, that's true we'll agree to disagree. However, I am disapointed that you could not find areas of common ground & agreement with me, as it does exist & I made it known in my post. I do not find your views appalling at all.

I will continue to warn and educate my children against views like yours and Karis', while I am sure that you will do at least some of the same with your children when it comes to the 'institution' of rabbinical Judaism that we inherit today... I fully expect you to instruct your children according to Deut. 6 with zeal. Secular assimilation and conversion to Christianity isn't part of HaShem's plan for you or your children, IMO; but for you to be all that He declared for you in the Tanakh.

I have no desire to “warn†my children, as you describe it, against rabbinical Judaism. I will strive to educate them to delight in the Torah, have familiarity with Talmud, to know their heritage & history, to read for themselves and ask questions, & respect rabbinical authority; but above all seek to please Adonai above man & have Him, in their lives, the way King David referred to Him as “the stronghold of my lifeâ€. I will raise them on the importance of our Community; as a resutl they would embrace your children as being mishpachah (family).

...and when it comes to what you probably perceive as its unjust historical 'monopoly' over the interpretation of an ancient text and oral tradition (I have known people who held such views). This view has never crossed my mind & in all my years, I've never known anyone who thought this way.

1. Talmud is not "extra-Scriptural" law. Jewish "Scripture" is two-fold, the written and the oral 'text', and they are considered equivalent parties, two sides of the same coin. There is no dichotomy there.

I understand that. Similarly (not exactly), is the sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture of Roman Catholicism; & not all of Christianity agrees with that just as not all of Judaism agrees with the acceptance of the equality of texts either.

For us (in my shul specifically), the oral Torah is valued & many traditions are followed, rabbinical authority is highly respected; however, it is the words of the Torah that are as “ a tree of lifeâ€. Oral law doesn't rise to an equal status; as you know, since the Haskalah (Enlightenment), Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist & Karaite Judaism have dealt with this issue, too.

2. Paternal lineage is relevant to the transmission of certain statuses / tribal minutiae, not to the transmission of Jewishness as such. It's a Halakha that needs reviewing when Gaddafi can become an Israeli citizen & those who are descendants of Jews, & are devoted to Judaism cannot. Israel's Right of Return Jewish standard isn't as narrow (rightly so), though that causes problems with the Chief Rabbinate, I know.

Reality is if your children & my children were before a violent anti-semite; they would not refer to halakha on this issue to determine if they were Jewish enough to be murdered. Same goes for a non-violent anti-semite in their choice of discriminatory behaviors.

There are non-Orthodox sects which accept people with a Jewish father as well. Yes, citing the marriages of Joseph, Moses, & the aforementioned Ruth, in addition to verses from Torah.

Orthodoxy does not consider those sects valid theologically nor, consequently, their conversions valid or children born into families where maternal lineage cannot be traced back even Jewish (nor, consequently, their marriages valid, further children Jewish, etc. - it is a very sad thing and many people get shocked and hurt upon learning that they are not considered Jewish by the Orthodox criteria). Yes, it is sad.

And there is also such a thing as intellectual recognition of Jewish Orthodoxy, but selective observance (or non-observance, for that matter)... So there is such a thing as teaching Orthodoxy as a sort of "Jewish outlook", but leaving the amount of observance or questions of religiosity or atheism to an individual. Yes, I am aware of this concept.

OP's blog post was an intellectually honest piece of writing which does not sugarcoat things nor apply standards of "unity" for a religious system which is not interested in full religious "unity" with the rest of the world. My use of the word “unity†was not meant as you seemed to take it. I am sorry for not being clearer. I am not the least bit interested in achieving unity w/the rest of the world. Perhaps a better way of phrasing it would have been that her presentation, not the legitimacy of her frustrations, of her concerns displayed condescension; one can be “intellectually honest†without being haughty. IMO, the tone exhibited, restricted the intent of the OP's beautiful desire to be “a light to the nationsâ€, reflecting the heart attitude of Isaiah 49:6. I believe education and respect is the answer, not ridicule.

Judaism is a binary system: there is Israel, and there are umot haolam. Yes, I am aware of the Noachide Laws as well.

This does not say that other people do not have a right to celebrate whatever they wish in whichever (non-violent) fashion they wish. What they do not have a right to is an expectation that other people will not consider those things wrong and actively warn against them. I never said that & I actually defend, to others, your position on the matter the best I can (excepting those who act out violently), because I have some understanding of where you are coming from, whether you know it or not. I agree re: an expectation & I don't believe that I have the right to expect others to agree with anything I choose; that'd be foolish and futile.

 

to be continued...

[historymatters]

Hebrew is always pronounced with the vowels, while we may discuss as to whether they are to be written or not, in which circumstances yes and in which no. The differences in pronunciation which are a product of two millenia of galut are not theologically binding in any way. This was a completely superfluous piece of information, apparent to me & most, if not all those participating if they have even a passing familiarity w/Hebrew. I was not charging that the different pronunciations were binding, nor was I expressing confusion about Hebrew in general. I think you missed my point entirely.

The problem arises with people who have not bothered to learn that, say, yud hey vav key (yes, I purposely misspelled the last one) is not to be pronounced, that certain numbers are to be calculated on a tet basis and not a yud basis, etc. Again I agree & I refer you to my original post expressing shared frustration; hence my use of the phrase, “I understand...â€.

 

One can have a cultural affinity for Catholicism without subscribing to their theology - or, even, consider their theology the most sound one within Christianity, but still without subscribing. That is called "entertaining the idea without accepting it". I said I was “amazedâ€, not ignorant of the principle of "entertaining the idea without accepting it", a phrase that came across as a little snide. My words were: “I can understand the attraction to the beauty of the rituals and structured prayers;â€. It'd be absurd for me to assume you subscribed to their theology.

God did not reveal Himself through the Bible, from a classical Jewish perspective. Rather, He revealed Himself AND gave the Torah. Big difference. I'll submit to that correction as being more precise, in the revelation of Himself & as the “giver of the Torahâ€.

Not everything an ethnic Jew writes is automatically "a Jewish book", a theologically acceptable one, let alone a binding one. True, however, I was speaking about the entirety of the Bible, not just any book; of which the Tanakh is the majority. Considering the authors as being merely ethnically Jews does them a great disservice.

Even without excepting the content in the Brit Chadashah, from a strictly academic & historical view, one can't honestly declare those authors as merely ethnically Jewish either; especially one author who was a talmid of Rabbi Gamaliel and a Pharisee himself.

 

 

 

 

Nobody is denying Jesus' ethnicity. In the 1st cen. and in recent history, that is true. However, for most of these 2000 yrs, if his ethnicity wasn't outrightly denied (it was by some), the manner of presentation by the church, diminished or denied it and he was separated from his heritage; in his appearance: instead of Sephardi features and dress, he looked like a Greek god with blonde hair and blue eyes. As to his intentions for Judaism , you wouldn't know it by Christian theology that he “didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophetsâ€; the entire context of his life being interpreted from a Greek vantage point and his “followers†throughout history attempting to destroy his own people in his name! All of those elements combined to depict a different ethnicity.

People are denying the soundness of his ideas and him being Messiah with what they consider Judaism. And some other people, like you, are accepting of those idea others deny. So we get differences, and that is fine. Apparently, the differences aren't fine. Otherwise, Messianic Jews in Israel wouldn't be physically assaulted and harassed from their Jewish brethren or families denied their rights as Jews by out-dated Halakha; we have DNA now that is over 90% accurate.

 

 

 

 

Lastly, these should be "arguments for the sake of heaven" and bind us together, stengthening the Community; not cause turn Jew against Jew, dividing and weakening. Within the Pirkei Avot it says:

 

 

 

 

A controversy for heaven's sake will have lasting value,

But a controversy not for heaven's sake will not endure

 

 

 

 

May this controversy have lasting value.

 

 

 

 

Chag Pesach sameach!

Happy Passover Holiday!

 

 

 

 

Rachel

 

 

[Ester Maria]

I decided to leave the text in quotes in its unaltered state, therefore, plain text in quotes in mine, bold is Rachel's response to that, and outside of the quote is my response to Rachel's response.

It's a Halakha that needs reviewing when Gaddafi can become an Israeli citizen & those who are descendants of Jews, & are devoted to Judaism cannot.

You are going into a different direction than the one I intended - my example was with the Levite status, which is inherited through the father, while you are turning this into a modern political issue.

 

Fundamental halacha does not "need reviewing", as it is a religious law, and we know how rigid those tend to be. Israeli citizenship, on the other hand, is the matter of secular law, which as such stems from the tradition of ethnic state (in fact, the whole of early, secular Zionism stems from that tradition), i.e. Israel is not a "Jewish state" in a religious sense (medinat halacha). So I do not really see the point in this observation?

Politics of the country with the Jewish majority as it exists now intersects with halacha when it comes to citizenship only a bit, mostly when it comes to converts anyway (who otherwise could not obtain citizenship due to the lack of ethnicity in family). And a whole bunch of people reside there who got citizenship via marriage, long-term stay there, refugee status, and so forth. None of that says anything about halacha, but rather, about secular law, and even if strictly speaking Israel lacks certain legal nuances to be considered a fully-fledged secular country, it is on the secular side. Which is perfectly fine with me ;), but let us not enter politics here lest the thread get deleted. LOL.

Reality is if your children & my children were before a violent anti-semite; they would not refer to halakha on this issue to determine if they were Jewish enough to be murdered.

I am afraid that antisemites' thoughts on the "who is a Jew?" topic are not in slightest religiously relevant. As sad as it may be that so many people were and still are affected by it, one's "murderability" by an antisemite still does not define a Jew.

There are non-Orthodox sects which accept people with a Jewish father as well. Yes, citing the marriages of Joseph, Moses, & the aforementioned Ruth, in addition to verses from Torah.

The foundational moment of the Jewish nation is matan Torah. Strictly speaking, Jews as one body, one nation, with a cohesive force of Torah, do not exist before matan Torah - they are only enslaved Israelite tribes with some sort of feeling of a shared past, origins, etc. Which might be enough for a secular definition of the nation, but not for a Jewish definition of the Jewish nation.

Ruth is a story of an exemplary convert.

This was a completely superfluous piece of information, apparent to me & most, if not all those participating if they have even a passing familiarity w/Hebrew. I was not charging that the different pronunciations were binding, nor was I expressing confusion about Hebrew in general. I think you missed my point entirely.

Fair enough, but I have witnessed so much confusion about Hebrew than I no longer take anything for granted and assume the approach of better to state the obvious sometimes than to be misunderstood. What was otherwise the point with your bringing up multiple pronunciations and vowels / no vowels issue? Somebody who knows Hebrew can still spot dire errors while being aware of multiple possible pronunciations.

As to his intentions for Judaism , you wouldn't know it by Christian theology that he “didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets”; the entire context of his life being interpreted from a Greek vantage point and his “followers” throughout history attempting to destroy his own people in his name! All of those elements combined to depict a different ethnicity

Much antisemitism also derives from reading the not-so-subtly anti-Pharisee tone of NT. Or even just plain anti-Jewish (hoi Ioudaioi :D).

People are denying the soundness of his ideas and him being Messiah with what they consider Judaism. And some other people, like you, are accepting of those idea others deny. So we get differences, and that is fine. Apparently, the differences aren't fine. Otherwise, Messianic Jews in Israel wouldn't be physically assaulted and harassed from their Jewish brethren or families denied their rights as Jews by out-dated Halakha; we have DNA now that is over 90% accurate.

Of course the differences are not "fine" in this case. In spite of it, it is wrong to be assaulted for one's beliefs, no matter how heretic they may seem to somebody else. Denied their Jewishness, they will always be to a point, by some groups at least, nothing to do about it; denied their rights as Israeli citizens, that is what is wrong if it happens.

 

Regarding DNA: LOL. Sorry, but a LOL.

Judaism is not a race nor is it fully an ethnicity in the secular sense of the word (as we saw already that the binding elements of this "nation" are not so much "biological" or "geographical" as they are "ideological"). It is, primarily, an idea. One can be a Chinese convert al pi halacha and be a Jew. Or one can be able to trace his paternal background until matan Tora as far as halacha is concerned, and not be a Jew. DNA means nothing, even to those who are from "old" Jewish families. Assuming a verifiable "biological" criterion for Jewishness is crazy in my eyes, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the Jewish concept of the nation (as opposed to the secular one). Of course that among many there is a shared genetic background due to close ties and historical endogamy, but implying those biological connections to be a criterion for Jewishness is going completely off. Or no convert is ever Jewish, etc.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Ester Maria

[missiemick]

Thank you, Messianicmom/Rachel and Karis -- I appreciate your ability to be articulate and loving in your explanations and responses. Someday, I hope to be as well.

Thank you, Jay3fer for the links -- I'm looking forward to going through them all. I really wish I'd seen this thread earlier and had a chance to use them.

Now, off to prepare for the Seder.

Happy Passover,

Mickie

[Spy Car]

Since I've seen this twice, I'd thought I would try to clarify that there is no such thing as a Messianic Christian, it's actually a contradiction in terms; you're either a Christian or you're a Messianic Jew or Gentile.

 

 

Chabadnicks are messianic Jews, as are most Jews. I call tell you how much offense you cause by referring those who believe Jesus is the Christ as "Messianic Jews" amongst Jews who practice Judaism. You must know this. People are being polite with you here, but I don't feel you are showing the same respect.

 

Bill

[susankenny]

Chabadnicks are messianic Jews, as are most Jews. I call tell you how much offense you cause by referring those who believe Jesus is the Christ as "Messianic Jews" amongst Jews who practice Judaism. You must know this. People are being polite with you here, but I don't feel you are showing the same respect.

 

Bill

 

Well, in fairness, it is a phrase coined by jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah. It's not like she's making it up as she types. Many jews that have converted to Christianity identify themselves as messianic jews. So, offensive or not, it is a proper phrase that a people group embrace to identify themselves.

 

Susan