Okay - need advice on issues with CC program...

[snipsnsnailsx5]

We were pretty set on doing the Classical Conversations program this fall. We set aside the money to do it, which is going to be a lot with three in Foundations and one in Challenge. But we really felt it was worth it.

 

DH's brother and his wife did last year's trial run of this program (because its BRAND new to our area, free last year to try it out and see if there was enough interest and they are JUST opening the new program this fall here). They were big supporters. Now I hear that they may not do it because the lady who was acting as administrator is going to teach instead, and the lady who is stepping up as administrator is making lots of changes.

Also, my DH just doesn't feel that its worth THAT much money to go toward tutors that are other moms. I guess he thought for that much money the tutors were going to be a bit more qualified/trained. Especially since this is the FIRST year for CC here in our area, so the program is new to everyone. The one who was acting as administrator did CC in Texas, and that's why she tried starting up a chapter here. I don't know why she's stepping down - just as of last week she was telling me to write checks payable to her for registration.

 

Anyway, I just don't know what to do now .I was REALLY looking forward to CC. But it sounds like they have a lot of kinks to work out for their first year, and its a lot of money to put into a program that may fall apart. However, part of the new changes the new administrator wants to make is making even smaller class sizes and being picky of who they let in. So if we dont get in this first year, we may never get in if we change our mind.

 

What would you do? Would you do this program, or wait and see how it plays out? IF SIL stays in the program, then we'd have an in and someone to "vouch" for us if they are being that choosy of who they let in. We've met several of the families and the teachers already.

 

Its going to be over $3000 for this first year for all the books, registration, and tuition. Not including the other non-CC curriculum - math, language arts, etc.

Edited March 17, 2011 by snipsnsnailsx5

[Brilliant]

The quality of the teachers is one reason we never signed up for CC. I don't think they are necessarily bad, but, they were unknown to me. It was just so much money to spend on a class taught by a mom who might have never had one of her students in the program before, much less taught it.

 

So, in your case, I wouldn't do it if I didn't have confidence in the teachers.

[VA6336]

As far as the class sizes go, Classical Conversations will not allow you to have more than 8 students per Foundations Tutor. You can, with permission from the State Manager (and a really good reason) have 9. Challenge is 12 per class. So I'd be interested to know what the former director was allowing for class sizes and what the new director is saying.

 

Is the director that is stepping down to tutor going to be tutoring a Challenge class? Tutoring Challenge classes requires a lot more time, effort and dedication than Foundations or Essentials does. She may be the only willing to invest in it right now.

 

When it comes to "being picky" about who they let in, that could mean any number of things. Do you have more than 64 students interested in Foundations? More than 12 per Challenge class? If so, then the director HAS to "be picky" but will give priority to families committed to the classical model. For a potential Foundations/Essentials student, the F/E director should give priority to a sibling of a Challenge student.

 

And, it's only March. The potential Tutors have not been trained yet. That all happens in the summer. Just FYI.

 

I don't know if any of that helps you as you make your decision, but it's what your post made me think of.

[Mom0012]

I agree that a lot depends on the tutor. I also think one of the primary benefit is the social outlet it offers. Really, you have to keep in mind that the main program for the elementary years is simply memory work. And it is memory work that most will forget if they don't continue to review it. I value memory work and while my kids are no longer doing CC at home, we are now using IEW's poetry memorization program. To me, the class is just not worth the financial cost and losing almost a whole day of school over.

 

Are they holding an open house? Can you sit in each of the classes your children should be in next year and see how they are run?

 

I did this last year and my kids loved it, but I was not impressed. The woman who ran the older class my son was going to be in had no energy or enthusiasm at all. The woman who ran the class my daughter would be in was totally unable to manage the class and I couldn't believe how out of control it was.

 

For us, it would have been nothing more than a social outlet for the kids. We'd already done the memory work for a number of years at home, so I think they'd already gotten all the academic benefit they were going to get out of the program for younger children.

 

I do like the idea of the challenge program. I'd love for my son to have a group of peers to learn with one day a week. But between my concerns about whether they would really be learning and if the curriculum would be a good fit when I've already got things I'm using that I'm happy with, I probably won't pursue it. We will see as we near high school.

 

Lisa

Edited March 18, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[G5052]

The director coordinates and troubleshoots behind the scenes and sets the tone for the group, so yes, he/she is a very important part of it. I personally would not lay out the $ unless the director was truly going to handle it well from all that I knew. A good director is also going to hire good tutors. The first year will indeed be a little hard for everyone, but someone who is a good administrator and has solid values will do fine.

 

Same applies to Challenge of course, plus they need to be able to truly motivate and handle teens.

Edited March 17, 2011 by GVA

[TXMomof4]

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I would find a tutor and allow them to teach my child one on one for $3000. There are so many other ways to use that money that would benefit your kids more.

[Mom0012]

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I would find a tutor and allow them to teach my child one on one for $3000. There are so many other ways to use that money that would benefit your kids more.

 

Wow! I agree. The tuition was only $300 per student the first time I considered joining CC years ago. I think there are a lot of things you could accomplish with that money. I would definitely get a tutor or sign up for extracurricular classes with that kind of money.

 

Lisa

[LND1218]

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I would find a tutor and allow them to teach my child one on one for $3000. There are so many other ways to use that money that would benefit your kids more.

 

She said that included the books too.

 

We love CC, and we have been very happy with it even when we had some "growing pains" in the early years. Kinks are inevitable, but what I love about CC was the support.

 

CC provides support and training for their tutors only for offical groups. I will bet that your last year they weren't official because official CC groups aren't free. A lot of groups start that way to get their feet wet - ours did many years ago. But you don't the support and benefit of CC without it. It's a very personal decision.

 

It could be that they have had some trouble with a family or two and so they are just being cautious. I don't think you would have trouble getting into a CC program unless the size of the program is an issue.

[Murphy101]

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I would find a tutor and allow them to teach my child one on one for $3000. There are so many other ways to use that money that would benefit your kids more.

 

:iagree: I think the cost of CC is insane. For that matter I think the cost of most home school coops is nuts. Many here cost the same or more than a college course, are not professionally managed, and the quality can be hit or miss. And then I still have to volunteer so many hours and blahblahblah. I've reached the conclusion that we must be very low on the home school economic totem bc it seems like everyone else can afford these things mostly for the social aspect, not acedmics.:confused::001_huh:

 

Last year I was all excited about some of the MANY options in coops available here. Dh was flabbergasted by what these other moms were charging are really grilled me about comparing the costs and so forth. It was quite an eye opener.

 

Most of the moms act as though they are more volunteers than being paid in a professional capacity, which is nice, but not what I expect when paying that kind of money kwim? These classes are EASILY the same cost or MORE than a class at the local community college. Yet many times the moms teaching aren't the slightest bit more qualified to teach the subject than I am.

 

So. All that to say. I agree with the above poster and your dh. And so far, my kids haven't suffered too terribly for it. I don't think anyways.:D

Edited March 17, 2011 by Martha

[i.love.lucy]

I'm a little sensitive about the quality of tutors because I am one. I went in to it with an attitude set on training little hearts. Every tutor on my campus has that attitude. It's too much work not to have the mostly noble motivations! Yes, I do get paid, and yes, it offsets my tuition, but it's been a lot of work on my plate this year that I would not do if I didn't really want to be there working with those kids.

 

No, I don't have professional teaching experience. But why would I need that? I am not "teaching" the material. I am modeling how to learn memory work, and working on public speaking, science and art. We do all this in so many fun ways. Mnemonics, songs, hand motions, movement, chanting repetition, games, etc. I think the kids in my class have a lot of fun. They learn the memory work (mostly at home, of course) but I'm told all the time that they are using the tips I have given them in class to work on it at home. Most of the kids in my class are 6yo (there are 9 of them) and every now and then it does seem out of control, but that's mostly when we go outside to run around and get our wiggles out. We do several pieces of memory work outside and do that with lots of movement. So, occasionally it can seem a little wild, but when does it not with a bunch of 6 year olds? Recently we had an open house and there were 6 additional visitors to my class. That was too much, and I was not a happy camper. The moms were in the background chatting (about the program I assume) and not really helping me control all these little ones that I don't know. That day was chaotic and I really hate that those moms might leave with the impression that I can't control my class. If I don't know you or your child and your child is running wild, I could use your help!!! Pay attention!:glare:

 

I think if you have serious concerns it would be worth discussing one on one with whoever is directing the campus. I don't like how you said they are "being picky" about who gets in. What does that mean? It's not a country club! The spots are filled on a first come first serve basis and every family that can be accommodated should be. I know on my campus if you had 3 very little ones and just one enrolled in the program, your need for childcare for the littles would put a burden on our already taxed nursery and another family might get consideration if they have 3 olders that could fill spots. But otherwise I can't imagine the attitude of "being selected to get in".

 

I think, like everything else, it's a prayer journey. Just pray about it and you will have peace either way.

[Erica in PA]

 

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I would find a tutor and allow them to teach my child one on one for $3000. There are so many other ways to use that money that would benefit your kids more.

:iagree:$3000 for the year would be way too much for me to even consider spending. Most of the time CC teachers are just regular homeschool moms like us-- not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not like they are necessarily classical education scholars-- which is what they would have to be for me to consider paying that amount of money. Otherwise, I feel like I could do something equally good at home myself. We do participate in a co-op that meets for 30 weeks of the year, and that has been wonderful for our family. Each of my three kids has 5 classes per week of our choosing, and the cost is less than $300 for all three. There are a few books to purchase as well, but they are materials that we would use at home for those subjects anyway. I can't imagine paying *10 times* that amount for CC!!!

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I think the quality of the people is the number one variable between communities. Speaking only for our own group: This past year was our first year. The director had one year of tutoring under her belt in another city. She has five young children. All of our tutors (at least the ones tutoring my three boys) were new to the program. My boys are only in Foundations.

 

My FAVORITE part of our CC community is the people. The director is outstanding. Calm, intelligent, organized, and laid-back. The tutors have consistently gone above and beyond. Their pay is pittance for the work they do during the week to prepare, setting up their class, teaching, cleaning up, and doing follow-up communications during the week. They have truly put their heart and souls (and their own resources) into teaching those classes and working with their students. My sister is a tutor, so I've seen this first hand.

 

Waiting and seeing how the dynamics of your group plays out might be a good idea, especially if it isn't close to being full. I'm fairly certain our group will be full this year.

 

ETA: The cost for all 3 of my boys in Foundations with materials was about $1200 for the year.

 

ETA (again): I've never participated in a co-op, but it is my understanding that the parents have to share the responsibility of teaching (which I have no desire to do). I'm a little confused why CC seems so expensive when one can tutor and off-set much or all of the cost (depending on the number of your children and what programs they are enrolled in). Maybe I'm misunderstanding the way co-ops work.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Heidi @ Mt Hope

[HejKatt]

Would it help if she could break down the costs more, and see what can be postponed/eliminated?

 

I just enrolled DS into next year's CC, the costs per student were: Tuition ($312) + Materials ($50) + registration ($50) + Facility Fee (which varies) = $412 + Facility Fee.

 

For the cost of the books, I only have experience with Foundations. You would need the core Guide ($50, but you can get a used one cheaper) and a tin whistle ($10). The Guide can be shared between the 3 students, but not the whistles so that's $80. So, materials really shouldn't be that much.

 

As a PP said, do pray about it. I've just gone through the first year and we went through two tutors (first mom had a baby). With each one, I learned some tips for teaching the younger ones. Being in CC has helped to make the teaching of classical material less intimidating, and it's been nice to meet other families with similar goals. But these are nice-to-haves compared to being at peace in the Lord's will.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

Here are the breakdown of the costs we had planned for - maybe I'm not doing it right though...LOL

 

Foundations for three children:

Tuition ($312 x 3) - $936

Registration ($50 x 3) - $150

Art/Supplies ($50 x 3) - $150

 

Books/materials:

Guide (1) - $50

Whistles ($10x3) - $30

History cards - $100

Flashcards - $30

Memory work CD - $25

American History workbook - $10

My Body book - $8

Life science work books (1 plus an extra workbook) - $35.45

 

Challenge A for one child:

Tuition - $1,110

Registration - $120

Art/Supplies - $50

Curriculum -

Latin - $44

Bible based/IEW - $29

Word Aptly Spoken - $16

(a couple of the other books I already got off Ebay for cheaper, and the reading books I plan to get through the library...and he's actually already read two of them off the list).

 

NOW - I'm really considering Essentials for my 4th grader. I think he really needs it.

So I'd be looking at another $312 f/ tuition, $50 registration (and $50 for supplies?). Books for him....not sure, because I'm not all sure what he needs ,but it looks like it could be another $140?

 

But the overall final picture of all that cost is that it would be our spine. At home I'd only be doing math (CLE) for my 4th grader if he does Essentials, and math and language arts (CLE) for my 2nd grader. My 7th grader will be all taken care of in the Challenge program. They will do some enrichment, like P.E. and music classes at a local co-op program (one half-day in the afternoon).

 

So for just over $3,000 that covers ALL of the FOUR boys' curriculum for the year.

Maybe its not so bad? I don't know what to compare that too...its our 2nd year.

 

I talked to my SIL though and she cleared up some of my confusion about our local CC program. What I heard wasn't true, and everything is still going forward as I thought.

The only problem is that they are really limiting class size (sounds like more then before, but I wonder how they are doing that unless they were trying to go for larger class sizes then the national CC program allows). And the families in the trial run last year got first priority already. There has been a lot of new sign-ups already and I haven't gotten my registration in. Its first come/first serve, but they are also going to choose which registrations sound like the best fit apparanetly. I went to the open house, met everyone and they all liked my kids (whew!) and my SIL and her sister are in the first priority families and they will vouch for me. So maybe I've got an in. lol

We'll see if we can get it! But we are going for it!

 

Now just to quickly decide if we for sure want to put our 4th grader in Essentials. One concern is how I'm supposed to stay on campus with him when my other three little ones won't have a place to go. hmmm

[Veritaserum]

There are no CC groups in my area, but that is a crazy amount of money! :001_huh: You could buy soooo much cool stuff to use in your homeschool and probably still have money to spare. I've looked at what CC has to offer because it's mentioned so often on here, but I don't get why it's so expensive. :confused: I'd be more likely to network with other homeschooling moms and swap teaching subjects than I would consider spending that much money on CC.... Or I'd look into hiring a tutor or taking a class at community college if I didn't feel confident teaching a particular course. So, my opinion as someone who has homeschooled for six years is that $3,000 seems pretty darn steep! ;) And I have four school-aged kids.

 

Here are the breakdown of the costs we had planned for - maybe I'm not doing it right though...LOL

 

Foundations for three children:

Tuition ($312 x 3) - $936

Registration ($50 x 3) - $150

Art/Supplies ($50 x 3) - $150

 

Books/materials:

Guide (1) - $50

Whistles ($10x3) - $30

History cards - $100

Flashcards - $30

Memory work CD - $25

American History workbook - $10

My Body book - $8

Life science work books (1 plus an extra workbook) - $35.45

 

Challenge A for one child:

Tuition - $1,110

Registration - $120

Art/Supplies - $50

Curriculum -

Latin - $44

Bible based/IEW - $29

Word Aptly Spoken - $16

(a couple of the other books I already got off Ebay for cheaper, and the reading books I plan to get through the library...and he's actually already read two of them off the list).

 

NOW - I'm really considering Essentials for my 4th grader. I think he really needs it.

So I'd be looking at another $312 f/ tuition, $50 registration (and $50 for supplies?). Books for him....not sure, because I'm not all sure what he needs ,but it looks like it could be another $140?

 

But the overall final picture of all that cost is that it would be our spine. At home I'd only be doing math (CLE) for my 4th grader if he does Essentials, and math and language arts (CLE) for my 2nd grader. My 7th grader will be all taken care of in the Challenge program. They will do some enrichment, like P.E. and music classes at a local co-op program (one half-day in the afternoon).

 

So for just over $3,000 that covers ALL of the FOUR boys' curriculum for the year.

Maybe its not so bad? I don't know what to compare that too...its our 2nd year.

 

I talked to my SIL though and she cleared up some of my confusion about our local CC program. What I heard wasn't true, and everything is still going forward as I thought.

The only problem is that they are really limiting class size (sounds like more then before, but I wonder how they are doing that unless they were trying to go for larger class sizes then the national CC program allows). And the families in the trial run last year got first priority already. There has been a lot of new sign-ups already and I haven't gotten my registration in. Its first come/first serve, but they are also going to choose which registrations sound like the best fit apparanetly. I went to the open house, met everyone and they all liked my kids (whew!) and my SIL and her sister are in the first priority families and they will vouch for me. So maybe I've got an in. lol

We'll see if we can get it! But we are going for it!

 

Now just to quickly decide if we for sure want to put our 4th grader in Essentials. One concern is how I'm supposed to stay on campus with him when my other three little ones won't have a place to go. hmmm

[Guest Lane]

I'm checking this thread out because I too am having doubts about CC as a good fit for us-

1. Financially: I REALLY don't plan on being a skinflint about our children's education. I mean, seriously, education is forever. However, the more I realize that CC will be supplementary and not the "curriculum outline" I want it to be, the less I think I want to spend that much $ on it.

2. The tutors: I'm sure many are wonderful. At the open house I attended, we were the only guests and the tutor had a very hard time maintaining order and really rushed through each section in a very non-engaged and unsmiling manner. ("ok, everybody clap for Dylan.") After two topics had been covered, she got one of the moms to take over for her and went home sick. Needless to say, the replacement had no preparation or idea of what she should be doing. I'm sure not all tutors are this unprofessional, but I don't want to play Russian roulette with our time/money.

3. The Cycle system: I LOVE the memorization. I HATE that it's not compatible with WTM and so DD would be learning the history facts etc. TOTALLY out of context. I have no problem with rote memory, but memorization that competes with what we're studying? nope.

 

So that's where we're at. I'm 98% positive we won't be doing it this fall which is too bad because I don't know what to do for socialization for DD! We have nice neighborhood friends and DD has a little sis and bro, but still...it'd be nice to find some nice friends esp. who are doing something similar educationally. The nearest homeschool coop is a nightmare of overcommittment and underplanning, so . . .no.

 

Any great ideas for socialization?

[Murphy101]

If you are looking for socialization, I'd would seek it in extracurricular opportunities, clubs and such.

[catz]

I'm not cheap on education by any means. We pay over 3000 a year for music lessons alone. But our teachers are highly trained, we hold them to very high standards, and we attend at a major music school

 

I've personally had mixed to bad results with all the parent led classes we've tried. I could not spend $3000 on a first year program with other parents leading. I'm dropping about $500 this year for my oldest to take science programs at our local zoo and science museum. These were taught by trained professionals with science degrees and they have all the resources there available to them. This was definitely worth it. For that kind of money, I'd need to hear some rave reviews on the program. You could do plenty of enrichment and extras for $3000.

[Guest Momof3inTenn]

We are two weeks away from completing our first year of CC. This is also my first year homeschooling my 4th grade ds, 2nd grade dd and Pre-k dd. We joined CC mainly for the accountability factor. I'm the free spirit who is married to an engineer, and he wanted me to have some weekly accountability.:tongue_smilie: And coming from public school, I wanted my children to have friends that they would see every week to make the transition easier.

 

My kids and I have thoroughly enjoyed the program. I agree that the first year is a little on the pricey side, but almost all of the materials will be used every year, such as the curriculum guide, Veritas press cards, flash cards, Essentials guide, etc. And the memory CDs will be used again when you go back through the cycles. I did not make CC my spine curriculum and bought an additional curriculum to use for this year. I gave up on it mid-way through the year. It was just too much. I felt like I was trying to serve two masters. I'm already planning for next year how I will make CC be the spine and work everything else around it. I'm thinking a plan and a library card are mostly what I will need next year to supplement.

 

My son is in Essentials, so that is his grammar/writing. Coming out of public school, he had practically no formal grammar training. We've done the bare minimum for assignments in Essentials this year, and he has still learned a ton. I didn't want to overwhelm him with too much diagramming this year, but I think he will do much better next year. Our community offers classes for the little ones while the older siblings are in Essentials. A local Karate teacher teaches a 45 min. class, then another mom and I rotate weekly teaching Andrew Pudewa's poetry memorization class, and the last 30 minutes or so the siblings are in class with us. They color, read, talk quietly, nap, etc. A few weeks they have been in the class with us almost the entire time and have done fine.

 

Are there a few things I don't like about it? Of course. No program is perfect. The director and tutors are very important. I had a choice between two groups, and I chose the brand new one because of what I knew about the director and tutors. This is the first year for all but one of our tutors, and they have done a marvelous job. Having three children in the program, it is neat to hear all the different ways they have been taught to retain the material by the different tutors. I prayed for several weeks over which community to join, and God gave me such a peace about my decision. I pray the same for you and yours.

 

Blessings

[tjarnold]

:bigear:

[Karis]

short and sweet...

 

(IF CC is what you want... regardless of the many opinions of others - friends, family, cyber consultants)

 

Every campus is different Find one that meets your standards.

 

Some are FABULOUS!!!

 

With more than three children enrolled in Foundations and one in Challenge - it will be pricey.

 

Most communities have afternoon programs for younger siblings while older students are in class - look into it.

 

Find a way to offset the cost sub/ tutor

 

Shop around to pay less for materials get the bare essentials.

 

buy little by little (spread it out) so you don't experience sticker shock

 

or do it at home or with a group of friends for less

[SEP]

We are about to wrap our families' fourth year of CC.

 

I'm actually taking over our campus as the director next year b/c our director is adding on Challenge and will tackle that from now on.

 

I concur that is a lot of money. However, considering it breaks down to about $13 for 3 hrs, per child, per day. It's less than most people pay for city league soccer practices. For me, I'd rather spend money on this than anything else for my children.

 

Joining a CC community is not for everyone. If you are a disciplined type that will practice memory work with your children without having to have accountability then maybe you can save your money and do it all at home.

 

When I first joined CC, I didn't even know anything about classical education. I have learned so much about classical education and become such a better teacher for my children and I have a degree in education and an extra certification to teach gifted children!

 

I enjoy being part of a community that has expectations for learning. The tutors are trained and paid, but they are committed. I would not want to be part of a co-op where the subjects that are offered change every six weeks and we're struggling to figure out who's going to teach what each rotation.

 

I have enough confusion in my own life... :)

 

Maybe this is just my personality, but I like being a part of a community where the moms have a similar focus and we can relate on that level. The moms are Christian Classical Educators who have paid for their children to join this community.

 

When people pay for things usually it will increase their participation because they do not want to 'waste' their money. So, we have a great experience because people are prepared and excited to be there.

 

On the Essentials note... Although the grammar is tough, I will say my daughter has learned a ridiculous amount of grammar. She could run circles around me. Her writing is so wonderful and I love the IEW program that Essentials incorporates. Having to turn in her paper to someone else keeps all of us accountable, even though I read it and have her make corrections, etc... Maybe it's the competitive nature of it or pride, but whatever it is, she gets it done.

 

I could do everything that CC does at home with my children. However, it would not be the same experience. At some level you are paying for the experience of learning it together. It is a wonderful time for the kids and for mom, while learning great things. Memory work is more fun when it's done in a group setting with songs, movements, competitions, and crafts.

 

Also, they do art/music and science experiments weekly, so that's take a load off my guilt train since I don't always follow through with art/music.

 

My kids LOVE it. They will be so sad when it ends in two weeks.

[mrs.m]

It's $13/class for a foundations student. Personally, I'll spend more than that at many of the playdates and extra-curriculars that are offered. And I have found that social interaction in clubs and extra activities is very limited because it isn't often that the same kids drop in. Being new to the area has been difficult and I'm looking forward to something consistent for my children!

 

I can't remember what it is for a Challenge student per session. The tuition is higher but they have sessions full-day for 30 weeks rather than 24. But when I talked with a student who is currently in challenge B and got her opinion on the challenge courses, I was beyond impressed. She showed me her Biology and Geography notebooks. My DD will be in Challenge A next year.

 

So, I think unless visit the program and talk with some of the moms, it is hard to understand why we would even want to spend the money. Sure, we could use it for something else, but my visits proved that it would be a valuable investment for our family. I asked about the tutor situation and I fully trust the directors of the program to hire Moms who are capable of tutoring a group of children and my visit proved that to certainly be the case. They were all leading the session with enthusiasm and a great deal of heart. I suppose if you don't witness that, then it's the wrong group.

 

In the case of the OP, I don't really have a lot of answers for that. But you may just wait to see how it all comes together. You really should talk to another mom in the group though about exactly what curriculum you need. It's not everything that you listed from my understanding from what my DF is telling me. But I guess that could vary by group. Good luck with your decision!

Edited March 20, 2011 by jannylynn
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