Cruel and Unusual Learning?

[Jenny in Florida]

No, but we prefer to observe nature in its NATURAL habitat. As someone pointed out these are more demonstrations/observations rather than experiments. There are alternatives to learning/viewing this information.

 

Animals come to harm all the time in nature, and have evoloved mechanisms to help them survive. But I find it distasteful to intentionally harm an animal, regardless of the amount of physical pain the creature actually feels, just to show my dd the cool things it can do. Obviously that's my own personal belief, not what I think everyone should do. But our religious beliefs dictate that if we can avoid harm, that is the course we must take, period.

 

Ditto to both of the above.

 

I have to bow out of this thread now, though, because I'm finding it too upsetting to continue reading. I apologize for posting and running.

[msk]

Out of curiosity, are the people who are opposed to dissections (of quickly-killed animals, not the decapitate-your-own-turtle thing) all vegetarians? How about those opposed to the tadpole temperature experiment?

 

I feel like those of us who eat animals (and I do) cause much more "harm" than this on pretty much a daily basis. I suspect conditions on a cattle feed lot or a small chicken cage are just as uncomfortable as those in a low-temperature goldfish bowl. But there are probably viewpoints I haven't considered.

[secular_mom]

Out of curiosity, are the people who are opposed to dissections (of quickly-killed animals, not the decapitate-your-own-turtle thing) all vegetarians? How about those opposed to the tadpole temperature experiment?

 

I feel like those of us who eat animals (and I do) cause much more "harm" than this on pretty much a daily basis. I suspect conditions on a cattle feed lot or a small chicken cage are just as uncomfortable as those in a low-temperature goldfish bowl. But there are probably viewpoints I haven't considered.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I want to be one for health AND moral reasons I am not 'there' right now- too many other things going on in life for me to be able to NOT do the 'easy' thing when it comes to food (ie cooking chicken fingers or burgers if that's what DH/the kids will eat).

 

I'm positive eating meat causes vast amounts of harm to our bodies and to the environment and to the animals being raised for food. But that all happens out of sight, so it's mostly out of mind. I'm pretty sure if we all had to go slaughter an animal when we want to eat meat that there would be WAY more vegetarians than there are now.

 

For me, I try to teach my children to respect life and instructing them to 'play with' another living being just to observe how that being's reaction to our prodding/soaking/heating/etc. isn't teaching to be respectful of life but teaching them that 'lesser' beings are fodder for 'play'. How far are we willing to go? Is it okay to manipulate insects in such ways, but NOT okay to manipulate mammals that way? Is it also okay to manipulate smaller animals but not large animals? What's the difference between 'drowning' a ladybug and putting a camel in an enclosed space and spraying it with sand to simulate a sand storm?

I think that those other living beings are not here for our entertainment, they are hear to live their own lives which are short and hard enough without us going out of our way to mess with their life cycle/development/etc.

That's JMHO and I truly mean no offense to others who feel differently.

[KidsHappen]

I am very concerned for my 8th grader as she will be in Honors Biology next year and I know that eventually she will reach a point where she will have to do things that will make her very uncomfortable. She is a vegetarian for moral reasons. She doesn't even wear leather. I strongly suspect that animal disections with be difficult for her.

 

Thanks everyone who brought up virtual labs. That was our plan when she was going to be at home but I did not know if it would be an option in PS especially in an Honors class. I will be sure to check that out. She is girdding herself just in case though. She said that she thinks that she may be able to handle fish and frogs if they are already dead but she seriously doubts her ability to deal with a bird or mammal and she certainly could not kill an animal herself. Her older sister is also a vegetarian for the same reasons and she managed dissections of a frog, starfish and pig fetus although she had difficulty with the last one. The 8th grader intends to talk to her older sister about it but if virtual labs are a possibility then we would definitely go with that.

[Satori]

I wish I would've stayed out of this General forum like I usually do. I feel very sick right now. To know a homeschool curriculum encourages this, and then to read that other post about the turtle and frog. Seriously saddens me.

 

This is one reason I didn't pursue science except for Physics.

[gardening momma]

I'm pretty sure if we all had to go slaughter an animal when we want to eat meat that there would be WAY more vegetarians than there are now.

I'm pretty sure this has much to do with the fact that the vast majority of the population doesn't live like our ancestors did, who raised their own food (and slaughtered it). It has much more to do with lifestyle, the way we are accustomed to living now, that people would not want to do this. I won't go into detail, but I have been present when an animal was slaughtered for food. I could do it again, if it was for the sake of food.

[Jen500]

[quote name=secular_mom;2529847

 

For me' date=' I try to teach my children to respect life and instructing them to 'play with' another living being just to observe how that being's reaction to our prodding/soaking/heating/etc. isn't teaching to be respectful of life but teaching them that 'lesser' beings are fodder for 'play'. How far are we willing to go? Is it okay to manipulate insects in such ways, but NOT okay to manipulate mammals that way? Is it also okay to manipulate smaller animals but not large animals? What's the difference between 'drowning' a ladybug and putting a camel in an enclosed space and spraying it with sand to simulate a sand storm?

I think that those other living beings are not here for our entertainment, they are hear to live their own lives which are short and hard enough without us going out of our way to mess with their life cycle/development/etc.

That's JMHO and I truly mean no offense to others who feel differently.

 

:iagree:

 

We had some 'experiments' in a science program which involved raising brine shrimp in various salt water solutions, and then adding some pollutants to see what would happen. Really? Do we need to DO this in order to understand that a pollutant will kill the organism? Some things are ok to just read about...I know they are 'only' brine shrimp but we're not adding any knowledge to the scientific world by doing this activity. (We skipped that one as well as putting a plant in a dark closet)

[WiseOwlKnits]

I couldn't do it. And I wouldn't allow my child(ren) to do it in the name of "learning."

 

I've done biology labs that involved dissection. It's one thing to quickly and humanely kill an animal so that you can learn about their organ systems, etc. That's the reason most places that supply dissection animals have to kill the animals in a way that (supposedly) causes as little suffering to the animal as is possible.

 

But it's another thing entirely to purposely inflict potential injury on an animal/insect just to see what will happen. Intentional injury of an animal isn't something I can teach my children.

[Pam Wilhelm]

I wish I would've stayed out of this General forum like I usually do. I feel very sick right now. To know a homeschool curriculum encourages this, and then to read that other post about the turtle and frog. Seriously saddens me.

 

This is one reason I didn't pursue science except for Physics.

 

 

I'm the frog and turtle lady.... :D

 

I just wanted to qualify that my degree program was B.S. Biology...and the course that I took that performed these experiments (torture) were upper level courses. As far as I know, you will not find these kind of experiments in Bio 101 type courses.

 

I think what bugged me about these horrid experiments was that they were totally unnecessary. I learned nothing through performing them that I could not have learned in a book or even by watching just one animal be sacrificed.

 

When the professor demonstrated the frog technique he was talking on and on about how the frog doesn't feel any pain....then he rammed the poker down his spine and the frog emitted a gutteral sound from what was left of his head..... I asked the professor why we had to sacrifice 6 animals like this..why couldn't we just do one and observe? He left the room.... I found him outside almost in tears... he looked at me and said, "I can't do this anymore, Pam, I just can't." He said that he had never heard a frog do that when pithed. He was almost in tears. He quit at the end of the semester and he and his wife took their sailboat and sailed around the world.

 

I don't see why we couldn't learn what we learned out of a book. Think of how many animals are sacrificed in the name of science. This college fed students into the Medical College down the road....so I guess they feel it is okay. :shrug: I just thought it was sad that every year at least 6 beautiful turtles and 6 gorgeous frogs are killed in that college. Multiply that by how many colleges are teaching the same way.

 

I'm not a vegetarian ...... yet..... but we definitely have reduced our meat consumption.

[LidiyaDawn]

Out of curiosity, are the people who are opposed to dissections (of quickly-killed animals, not the decapitate-your-own-turtle thing) all vegetarians? How about those opposed to the tadpole temperature experiment?

 

Since you asked - yes. I've been a vegetarian (and considering veganism after this little guy is born) since I was a young teen and am now in my mid-thirties.

[BarbecueMom]

If non-fatal temperature changes are the objection, wouldn't it be cruel to keep a goldfish as a pet? My house temperature can sometimes range from 60-80 degrees in a single day.

 

Or am I opening the "animals shouldn't be kept as pets" can of worms?

[Mrs Mungo]

I thought this was going to be about subjecting our children to cruel and unusual things like Latin.

[nmoira]

If non-fatal temperature changes are the objection, wouldn't it be cruel to keep a goldfish as a pet? My house temperature can sometimes range from 60-80 degrees in a single day.

 

Or am I opening the "animals shouldn't be kept as pets" can of worms?

Water has a high specific heat capacity, so the temperature of the water in the bowl or tank will not see such a wide variance. However, if someone cannot provide adequate living conditions for pets, then, no, they shouldn't keep them. This includes keeping fish in containers and conditions that provide adequate oxygen levels in the water.

[Ibbygirl]

I'm the frog and turtle lady.... :D

 

I just wanted to qualify that my degree program was B.S. Biology...and the course that I took that performed these experiments (torture) were upper level courses. As far as I know, you will not find these kind of experiments in Bio 101 type courses.

 

I think what bugged me about these horrid experiments was that they were totally unnecessary. I learned nothing through performing them that I could not have learned in a book or even by watching just one animal be sacrificed.

 

When the professor demonstrated the frog technique he was talking on and on about how the frog doesn't feel any pain....then he rammed the poker down his spine and the frog emitted a gutteral sound from what was left of his head..... I asked the professor why we had to sacrifice 6 animals like this..why couldn't we just do one and observe? He left the room.... I found him outside almost in tears... he looked at me and said, "I can't do this anymore, Pam, I just can't." He said that he had never heard a frog do that when pithed. He was almost in tears. He quit at the end of the semester and he and his wife took their sailboat and sailed around the world.

 

I don't see why we couldn't learn what we learned out of a book. Think of how many animals are sacrificed in the name of science. This college fed students into the Medical College down the road....so I guess they feel it is okay. :shrug: I just thought it was sad that every year at least 6 beautiful turtles and 6 gorgeous frogs are killed in that college. Multiply that by how many colleges are teaching the same way.

 

I'm not a vegetarian ...... yet..... but we definitely have reduced our meat consumption.

 

:grouphug::grouphug: Oh my gosh, reading that made me physically sick!! You poor thing. Why though did the professor use those methods if he himself was disturbed by it?? Did the school mandate it as the only teaching method?? Was he disturbed by every event or just the last one that caused the frog to make that sound? It was hard to tell from the way it was worded. Either way, that is ghastly. I would have flunked that class for sure. I couldn't even dissect the frog that was already dead and being kept in formaldehyde jar. :svengo:

 

I thought this was going to be about subjecting our children to cruel and unusual things like Latin.

 

:lol: :lol: Thank you Mrs. Mungo for the comic relief! hehehe It was needed to be sure. A Patron for you! :D :cheers2:

[Pam Wilhelm]

:grouphug::grouphug: Oh my gosh, reading that made me physically sick!! You poor thing. Why though did the professor use those methods if he himself was disturbed by it?? Did the school mandate it as the only teaching method?? Was he disturbed by every event or just the last one that caused the frog to make that sound? It was hard to tell from the way it was worded. Either way, that is ghastly. I would have flunked that class for sure. I couldn't even dissect the frog that was already dead and being kept in formaldehyde jar. :svengo:

 

 

I don't think the gurgling frog had ever happened to him before. I don't know if the College ever required these labs or if he felt they were necessary to illustrate what we were learning. He was a gentle soul....believe it or not. I don't think anything like this had ever happened to him before and I think that it just shook him up so much.... perhaps he was reaching a point in his life where these issues were playing on his thoughts. I don't know.... I do know that he was gone the next semester and they said that he and his wife had gone sailing around the world.

[Ibbygirl]

I don't think the gurgling frog had ever happened to him before. I don't know if the College ever required these labs or if he felt they were necessary to illustrate what we were learning. He was a gentle soul....believe it or not. I don't think anything like this had ever happened to him before and I think that it just shook him up so much.... perhaps he was reaching a point in his life where these issues were playing on his thoughts. I don't know.... I do know that he was gone the next semester and they said that he and his wife had gone sailing around the world.

 

Wow!! Good on him that he had the courage to follow through with his convictions though. I'm sure there are other people who may think it, but wouldn't risk losing a reliable income. I wonder what happened in the class when the new professor took over. I wonder if the same methods were used. *Shudder*

[kalanamak]

I won't be doing any dissecting or anything like it here. My ds9 saves moths and spiders that come in the house and puts them back outside.

!

 

 

As a kid, I dissected a stillborn calf, a coyote we found frozen still in a trap, a rattler killed by a farmer, a woodrat I euthanized with CO2 after it ran from my parent's fireplace horribly burned, a cat I had to put down with feline viral leukemia, a fresh road kill possum and squirrel (thank you, oh brave Daddy), a moon snail I found washed up on shore and a rat fish someone else caught and bonked on the head.

 

I'm a complete animal lover and vegetarian, so one can do dissections without having a shadow on one's back. :001_smile:

 

Oh, and regarding fetal pigs: the mother was not raised and slaughtered to provide fetal pigs. She was slaughtered for the meat, and the price of food and pork at the time governed when she was slaughtered. Waste not, want not.

Edited March 18, 2011 by kalanamak