Japanese gov't failed to heed warnings

[jld]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/japan-ministers-ignored-warnings-nuclear?INTCMP=SRCH

 

Do you think other governments are rethinking their nuclear policies?

[Peela]

Apparently they are, yes. Thank goodness.

But there in the U.S. you also have nuclear power stations on or near fault lines as well, apparently.

You know, to an ordinary everyday non scientifically trained citizen like myself, it just seems absolutely nuts, insane, crazy, to build nuclear power stations along fault lines or in a country like Japan that is seismically active all the time. Really. Why it takes disasters for common sense to rule I don't know. Its just obvious. But its always economics first, environment second, economics first, long term consideration 2nd. Economic first, people second.

I'll get off my soap box now.

When will people stop putting money first and think what is for the greater good for once?

OK, now I will really get off.

[regentrude]

it just seems absolutely nuts, insane, crazy, to build nuclear power stations along fault lines or in a country like Japan that is seismically active all the time. Really. Why it takes disasters for common sense to rule I don't know. Its just obvious. But its always economics first, environment second, economics first, long term consideration 2nd. Economic first, people second.

 

 

Japan is a country with high seismic activity everywhere. It is also a country with a large population and almost no natural resources such as coal and oil (which are the primary sources for electricity in the US). They have little other option.

You can not compare the situation with the US who have large amounts of fossil fuel.

What would you suggest Japan uses to generate electricity?

[cindergretta]

I want to read along.

[regentrude]

Do you think other governments are rethinking their nuclear policies?

 

As a matter of fact, Germany is. There has been talk about phasing out nuclear energy and the chancellor is pretty serious about it now.

[mktkcb]

There is way too much panic-mongering going on, IMO. Here's a really good article describing what is actually happening. I wish our country would rethink it's policies and allow more nuclear power. BTW, current reactor technology does not require a separate power source to provide water circulation for cooling. It utilizes a built in convection system that uses the heat from the cooling rods to circulate the water. It would literally cool itself should the reaction be stopped in the event of a natural disaster. Anyway, hope this provides a more rational side to things.

 

http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

[Negin]

it just seems absolutely nuts, insane, crazy, to build nuclear power stations along fault lines or in a country like Japan that is seismically active all the time.

its always economics first, environment second, economics first, long term consideration 2nd. Economic first, people second.

When will people stop putting money first and think what is for the greater good for once?

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Peela]

What would you suggest Japan uses to generate electricity?

 

You see, I even find that question ridiculous because if I answer it I am buying into a certain mentality that suggests I should justify my position on economic grounds.

There ARE other ways to make electricity- wind, solar, water, as well as fossil fuels that are imported- heck, they have technoology that can run cars on water. If they are not economically viable at this point, or in Japan, at least they are not in immediate and imperative danger of causing incredibly massive destruction on a both human and all other life form level- but it seems a risk that people are willing to make....on purely economic grounds. That is why it is insane. It always comes down to the short term economic advantage. Its all about the money. Well, you cant eat money, and electricity doesn't matter much when you have a nuclear situation.

[Mama Geek]

First I would like to say that I feel so bad for the people of Japan. What they have gone through and are going through is horrible.

 

My opinion on if we should have nuclear power in the US has not changed because of what has happened. Oil, natural gas, and nuclear power are really the only viable options for energy in most of the world. Solar power, wind power, ethanol, and any of the other alternative sources of power are much less efficient and much more costly. If we had to solely depend on them for energy our lives would be much, much different.

 

I've spent a lot of time sailing and had even seriously considered outfitting a boat to sail around the world before dd came along. A sailboat is the most suited place for wind and solar power, but do you know there are very few boats that don't have a diesel generator on board? Sailors typically find that wind and solar are not enough to run even the most simplistic systems for a very simplistic life that you live on a sailboat.

 

I am all for drilling more oil in the US, but as things are right now we are dependent on the middle east and many other unstable regions of the world for our oil. Unless our country decides enough is enough and that we should drill or build more nuclear plants, our lifestyle will not be sustained. This holds true for many of the developed nations is the world.

 

There will always be the poor and there will always be the rich. From everything I have seen the number of poor is significantly rising and they will be hit the hardest by the lack of viable energy. The costs of heating/cooling a home, driving a car, the costs of goods and just about everything else will skyrocket if we didn't have oil, natural gas or nuclear power.

 

You can say that you can't eat money, but you can't buy anything including food or seeds to plant a garden without some form of money.

[Mama Geek]

they have technoology that can run cars on water.

 

The second law of thermodynamics is entropy is always increasing. For the non technical this means you can't get something for nothing. To burn water, you must first use more energy that you will get out to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen. So when people talk about running cars on water, they are discussing using a dangerous and inconvenient battery which is not a source of energy, but a means of transporting it.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Mama Geek

[Sebastian (a lady)]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/japan-ministers-ignored-warnings-nuclear?INTCMP=SRCH

 

Do you think other governments are rethinking their nuclear policies?

 

Knowing several folks who have worked with nuclear power in the Navy, I can't think of a category of people who take it more seriously. Some of the discussions that I'm confident they are having involve worst case scenarios, where the backup generators do not come on.

 

But I've also noticed that those in the media don't seem to understand enough science and math to be able to understand the answers to the questions they are asking. There was an interview on CNN yesterday that demonstrated that. The reporter (egged on by Wolf Blitzer) kept asking what magnitude of earthquake a particular California reactor was built to withstand. The rep from the plant kept trying to explain that they didn't build to withstand a certain magnitude, but to withstand a specific level of earth movement at the plant itself.

 

Having been through a bunch of earthquakes in Japan of far smaller scale, there is a big difference in intensity depending on how far away and how deep an epicenter was, as well as through what type of ground the seismic wave was transmitted.

 

I think that it is a little like asking an automotive engineer how fast you can drive your car into a wall. He would probably tell you that the car is designed to withstand a certain collision force, because not all accidents happen with stationary objects.

 

I guess this is a reason to make sure I don't skimp on the math and science studies with my kids. I can't quite figure out of the media folks I'm growing frustrated with don't care to get it right, can't tell that they aren't understanding, or are trying to manipulate the responses to heighten the news value.

 

This page from the USGS has some info on the difference between magnitude (Richter Scale) and intensity (Modified Mercalli Scale).

[radiobrain]

I actually think that considering how massive the earthquake was, how devastating the Tsunami became, how many plants there are... that it is amazing that it is not worse.

 

I think that it shows how well put together and maintained they were.

[brasilmom]

With the size of the destruction, I think I am better off sending them positive vibes. I feel that they are responsible people and one can just predict so much. Not time to point fingers and accuse of this or that. Making judgment and accusations are not going to help those that are in the suffering with the disaster. It will not bring solution either. I think I am yet to meet people more disciplined, fast acting, responsible, and admirable than Japanese.

This is just my 2 cents, and I will be back on my little world now....

Be well

Miriam

[TravelingChris]

I am right there with you Sebastian. DH and I were watching a news show on Friday night (so almost 24 hours after the earthquake). The host had a geology professor on and was talking about the earthquake. He was really insistent on why we can't predict earthquakes (almost angrythat we couldn't) because after all we can dig down to the core. (Considering we haven't even reached the mantle....). Then he went on to give a statement about how the earth moves which was totally wrong too. I was amazed that the professor didn't just start guffawing. We called down our daughters and were very happy that they remembered their geology and called out the host the minute they heard about drilling to the core. What annoyed me was this host really should have at least gone on wikipedia and read up about earthquakes and plate techtonics before going on the air.

[Trish]

There is way too much panic-mongering going on, IMO. Here's a really good article describing what is actually happening. I wish our country would rethink it's policies and allow more nuclear power. BTW, current reactor technology does not require a separate power source to provide water circulation for cooling. It utilizes a built in convection system that uses the heat from the cooling rods to circulate the water. It would literally cool itself should the reaction be stopped in the event of a natural disaster. Anyway, hope this provides a more rational side to things.

 

http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

 

Well I read that whole long article. Toward the end the author says Japan is looking at a "Level 4" situation -- it is now already up to a Level 6 alert (out of 7). Also this comforting paragraph I believe is not in fact true -- the media seems to be saying everything is continuing to heat up. The news media are moving their reporters -- Anderson Cooper cut out in the middle of a 2-hour live broadcast last night, to move to a different area, I guess not downwind of the plants.

 

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is “liquid control rodâ€. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.

 

:confused:

[Jennifer3141]

You see, I even find that question ridiculous because if I answer it I am buying into a certain mentality that suggests I should justify my position on economic grounds.

There ARE other ways to make electricity- wind, solar, water, as well as fossil fuels that are imported- heck, they have technoology that can run cars on water. If they are not economically viable at this point, or in Japan, at least they are not in immediate and imperative danger of causing incredibly massive destruction on a both human and all other life form level- but it seems a risk that people are willing to make....on purely economic grounds. That is why it is insane. It always comes down to the short term economic advantage. Its all about the money. Well, you cant eat money, and electricity doesn't matter much when you have a nuclear situation.

 

:iagree:

 

I also get quite a chuckle out of everyone who says that nothing but nuclear is feasible. Really? So if we'd NEVER figured nuclear energy out, we'd be doing what for energy right now??

 

We're LAZY. We find something that works and we run with it. You can say the same thing about oil. We have people on this very board with a strong scientific mind. And that's just right here on one tiny corner of the internet. There is no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that we cannot figure this issue out without destroying ourselves and our planet along the way.

[Trish]

I wouldn't want to under-react to a disaster of this magnitude.

[Mejane]

My opinion on if we should have nuclear power in the US has not changed because of what has happened. Oil, natural gas, and nuclear power are really the only viable options for energy in most of the world. Solar power, wind power, ethanol, and any of the other alternative sources of power are much less efficient and much more costly. If we had to solely depend on them for energy our lives would be much, much different.

 

 

Yup. Everyone wants power, but no one wants a nuclear reactor, "dirty" oil- or coal-fired plant, sub-station power lines, or a wind farm in their backyard. We b*tch about the cost of imported oil, but off-shore drilling? Fuggedaboudit! Well, here's a newsflash, folks - you really can't have it both ways. So unless you're prepared to go off the grid, you'll have to put up with some of the above.

[Mejane]

I actually think that considering how massive the earthquake was, how devastating the Tsunami became, how many plants there are... that it is amazing that it is not worse.

 

I think that it shows how well put together and maintained they were.

 

:iagree:It's also a testament to the plant crews who have kept themselves in harm's way in order to contain the damage as much as possible.

[silliness7]

You see, I even find that question ridiculous because if I answer it I am buying into a certain mentality that suggests I should justify my position on economic grounds.

There ARE other ways to make electricity- wind, solar, water, as well as fossil fuels that are imported- heck, they have technoology that can run cars on water. If they are not economically viable at this point, or in Japan, at least they are not in immediate and imperative danger of causing incredibly massive destruction on a both human and all other life form level- but it seems a risk that people are willing to make....on purely economic grounds. That is why it is insane. It always comes down to the short term economic advantage. Its all about the money. Well, you cant eat money, and electricity doesn't matter much when you have a nuclear situation.

 

I don't literally eat money. But if my electric bill quadrupled I wouldn't be able to afford both heat/lights/cooking energy AND food. It all comes down to risk v. benefits.

[swimmermom3]

Yup. Everyone wants power, but no one wants a nuclear reactor, "dirty" oil- or coal-fired plant, sub-station power lines, or a wind farm in their backyard. We b*tch about the cost of imported oil, but off-shore drilling? Fuggedaboudit! Well, here's a newsflash, folks - you really can't have it both ways. So unless you're prepared to go off the grid, you'll have to put up with some of the above.

 

Well, shoot. All those things are way, way better than changing our life styles and patterns of consumption.:tongue_smilie:

[swimmermom3]

:iagree:It's also a testament to the plant crews who have kept themselves in harm's way in order to contain the damage as much as possible.

 

I know there are thousands of courageous and heroic souls in Japan right now, but my heart goes out to these crews.

[melmichigan]

But I've also noticed that those in the media don't seem to understand enough science and math to be able to understand the answers to the questions they are asking.

 

I can't quite figure out of the media folks I'm growing frustrated with don't care to get it right, can't tell that they aren't understanding, or are trying to manipulate the responses to heighten the news value.

 

You aren't the only one who can't figure it out. :)