math facts drill: how fast?

[Tress]

We use Singapore and the HIG says to practice math facts (addition, subtraction, and now in 2B multiplication tables of 2,3,4,5,10) but it never specifies *how fast* a child has to become.

 

We are using a flashmaster to drill facts and I have been telling my daughter to try and improve her score every day. She tries and she does not find it particularly difficult to learn her math facts, but she is still not very fast. I can easily beat her :D. The same with the mental math sheets, I'm much faster.

 

Can someone give me a goal we can work towards? A number of addition/subtraction facts per minute? How many multiplication sums in a minute? Something like that? What is good enough? Do other math curricula give guidance in this? :bigear:

 

I want her to be fast, but I don't want to push her to reach some level that might not be appropriate. (Obviously I'm talking about a child that does not have any special circumstances or LD's, I do understand that timed test are not appropriate for every child.)

[Chris in VA]

We do 100 facts in 5 minutes in 2rd grade. But we were using Saxon 3.

Goes down to 4 minutes in 4th, I believe, but I'm not sure.

That's not mixed operations, just one operation at a time.

 

FWIW, I started by seeing how long it took dd to do a page, so I was timing for completion. Then her time went down. Then I started giving her the time, and seeing how many she could do within that time. (This was only for multiplication--we did the regular timing thing for the other operations--for her, something was harder about multiplication, so we lessened her stress by doing it this alternate way.)

[Embassy]

I work towards 25 facts in one minute. These are all similar problems like 9+4, 4+11, 7+4, 4+2, etc.

[DeniseF]

I like using Calculadder and so does my daughter, well not every day but she loves it when she gets close to completing a level, and the day she finishes it, it leaves her with a great sense of accomplishment. Calculadder has been around for decades, and has been used with much success. Each Calculadder unit (which is roughly a school year's worth of drills) has 16 drills in it. Your child does the same drill every day, timed. They do the same drill every day until they can complete it within 2 minutes (or some of them are 3 minutes) with 100% accuracy.

 

I really like it because it builds skills incrementally, starting with Level 1 where the child can feel satisfaction and accomplishment from being able to do the simplest addition (adding +0, +1, +2), gradually increasing the number of problems and the difficulty (+8, +9, etc). There is a rhyme and reason for the sequence and the number of problems and the timing goal.

 

I got the downloadable version which is approx $24 from Rainbow Resources which gives you approx 3 school year's worth of drills (Calculadder 1,2,and3) taking you from the very easiest addition, through subtraction, multiplication, and division. I bought the downloadable version so I can print the drill, put it in a plastic page protector, and then use that same drill every day with a dry erase marker until she's done with it and ready to move on to the next one. In that way the materials are non-consumable so I can use the same set of materials for all 3 of my kids (that's allowable per their copyright).

 

I hope you find something that helps you and your child feel a sense of progression and accomplishment!

[Spy Car]

I would just be cautious not to let goal-oriented expectations on speed-drills cause stress and "math anxiety" with a 7 year old.

 

The Saxon obsession with speed drills causes a fair number of kids to crumble and to develop math phobias. How many parents have come on this forum to say: "my child used to love math, not they hate it and think that they are stupid."

 

At this age that is at least as great a danger as not being "fast." There are many less stressful ways to get this practice than timed tests. I would exercise caution.

 

Bill

[LinRTX]

Saxon does not have an obsession with speed drills. As with any curriculum, they are there. Use them if you like. Ignore them if you don't.

 

Speed drills do not necessarily make a child hate math. I have only used them with my youngest with any consistency. She is the only one who needs them. Guess what? She enjoys seeing if she beats her old time.

[Sara in WA]

For my kids, we do 5 minutes of flashcards or a sheet of math facts three or four times a week. The math fact sheets are from a book of timed tests. I don't time it. I ask my dd to work on it until it's finished. Depending on the child's mastery, I may do all the "1s" for a week and then the "2s" for a week and so on.

 

My oldest does math at school and they have a good way to do it. For a timed sheet they use pencil and do as much as they can in one minute. Then they switch to red pencil and then finish the sheet.

[Spy Car]

Saxon does not have an obsession with speed drills. As with any curriculum, they are there. Use them if you like. Ignore them if you don't.

 

Speed drills do not necessarily make a child hate math. I have only used them with my youngest with any consistency. She is the only one who needs them. Guess what? She enjoys seeing if she beats her old time.

 

Some kids love 'em, some don't. That is why I said exercise caution. if a child is having fun and likes beating her old time, fine. But many (many) Saxon using parents have come on this forum to talk about the math anxieties that arose from the timed tests in Saxon math. So it can be a problem.

 

Bill

[LinRTX]

But the anxiety is not with the curriculum. I was only saying you cannot bash Saxon for this. Many curriculums use timed tests. With any of them, you need to read your kid to know when to push and when not to. That's the beauty of homeschooling. You use the curriculum, but don't let it dictate you.

 

You are right about not letting it cause math anxiety, but I do have a problem with curriculum bashing.

 

Linda

[Joyofsixreboot]

CLE has 24 problems in one minute. Frankly, my 1st grader can do it and my 4th grader can't but he can do it in a minute and a half to two minutes and he gets them correct. I'd rather he be medium speed and accurate than speedy and incorrect.

[Spy Car]

But the anxiety is not with the curriculum. I was only saying you cannot bash Saxon for this. Many curriculums use timed tests. With any of them, you need to read your kid to know when to push and when not to. That's the beauty of homeschooling. You use the curriculum, but don't let it dictate you.

 

You are right about not letting it cause math anxiety, but I do have a problem with curriculum bashing.

 

Linda

 

My impression is timed tests are an integral part of the Saxon program, so one can go against the suggestions of a math program (or not) but many of those parents who do the timed speed drills have reported math anxiety arising from those timed drills.

 

I have the same concerns when the Singapore HIGs recommend timed speed drills. Because some kids will thrive, and others will get turned off to math. There are better ways to learn these skills at 7 IMO.

 

Bill

[LinRTX]

But have you ever used Saxon? I seem to see from other comments that you have never actually used the program. My youngest is my 4th child using this program. I have one who has graduated college that I used the program with. I have used the program from Saxon 2 through Calculus. The timed drills are a small part of the program. You don't have to use them.

 

All I am saying is do not bash a program you have never actually used, based on others comments.

 

If I remember right your oldest is only 5 or 6 and you have never used the program because you don't like it. You don't have to like it, but never having used it you certainly should not bash it.

[Spy Car]

But have you ever used Saxon? I seem to see from other comments that you have never actually used the program. My youngest is my 4th child using this program. I have one who has graduated college that I used the program with. I have used the program from Saxon 2 through Calculus. The timed drills are a small part of the program. You don't have to use them.

 

All I am saying is do not bash a program you have never actually used, based on others comments.

 

If I remember right your oldest is only 5 or 6 and you have never used the program because you don't like it. You don't have to like it, but never having used it you certainly should not bash it.

 

No, I have not and would not use Saxon. I don't like the methods.

 

I have been a member of this forum a long time, and kept up with the math threads. And in threads too numerous to count parents whose children one loved math ended up in tears due to timed speed drills. Almost all of those folks were using Saxon math. That is the truth. When I see the same thing again and again it gives me pause. It doesn't take a leap of genius to realized that while some kids love the challenge of timed speed drills others do not. And much harm has come to those in the latter category.

 

So the potential math anxiety from a "speed tests" concerns me. I think it is a legitimate concern when one is talking about a 7 year old.

 

Bill

[LinRTX]

Again, there is potential anxiety for a 7yo with timed math drills. But the problem is not Saxon, it is the timed math drills.

 

Saxon does provide timed math drills. Many programs do. Its not the program causing anxiety; its the timed math drills.

 

And even though I am a big fan of Saxon, I did not time my children when they were 7. We just used the fact sheets as worksheets.

 

I had no problem with you expressing a concern over "speed tests" causing anxiety; I did have a problem with you calling out Saxon as causing anxiety.

 

 

Linda

[Manamana]

Dd9 participates in an accelerated math/science class through the local public school two half days each week and they are doing drill sheets. The goal they are working toward currently is 60 addition/60 subtraction problems in 3 minutes. She can complete about 75 problems in that time.

 

We use Saxon 54 at home and they encourage doing 100 problems in 3 minutes. she does 100 addition in 3:30 min. on a very good day. Subtraction takes 4:00. We don't get stressed out about doing drill sheets but we do try to do them regularly and keep track of improvement.

[Spy Car]

Again, there is potential anxiety for a 7yo with timed math drills. But the problem is not Saxon, it is the timed math drills.

 

Saxon does provide timed math drills. Many programs do. Its not the program causing anxiety; its the timed math drills.

 

And even though I am a big fan of Saxon, I did not time my children when they were 7. We just used the fact sheets as worksheets.

 

I had no problem with you expressing a concern over "speed tests" causing anxiety; I did have a problem with you calling out Saxon as causing anxiety.

 

 

Linda

 

Let's agree that neither of us is sure that timed speed tests for 7 year olds is necessarily a good idea, and leave it at that. OK?

 

Bill

Edited March 8, 2011 by Spy Car

[msjones]

Some kids like speed drills, in which case I'd aim for about 20 problems per minute. Sure, they could go faster, but I wouldn't die on the hill of maximum math fact speed.

 

If your student is not comfortable with speed drills, I suggest aiming for steady, consistent, confident accuracy. Some kids just are not the speedy types. If your student can accurately figure math facts quickly enough that it isn't slowing down his/her work, I'd call that success.

 

7 is young for real mastery, although I know it's possible.

 

I often tell the parents of my students to expect to be practicing addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts daily for most of elementary school. The confidence and accuracy will come, but for most kids it takes time.

 

That's not what they want to hear, but my recommendation is to first teach strategies for figuring the facts and then brief, supported daily practice (practice -- not testing) for years to come.

[Tress]

Thank you all!

 

I agree that learning math facts should not cause stress to a young child. My daughter doesn't like to see the time counter run down, so we stopped that feature on our flashmaster. No big deal. I have been telling her to just try and improve her score, she is fine with that and really proud if she can.

 

This question was more meant for *me*. She is doing almost 60 (addition or subtraction, with only the more difficult sums) problems in 180sec - with no mistakes, so 20 per minute and I was wondering if that was enough. I did not know if I could tell her to relax or to still try to improve. (BTW, I can do 60 problems in 180 sec, with a toddler bouncing on my lap and while talking to my kids :).)

 

And to Bill ;): we only started using our flashmaster *after* she got really comfortable with regrouping a la Singapore. I'm not aiming for maximum speed, just wanted to have a feel for what is 'fast' and what is 'slow' and it appears my idea of 'slow' is plenty fast enough:tongue_smilie:.

[boscopup]

Back to the OP :D, in MM (where math facts speed drills aren't included or recommended - she recommends games to cement them), the end of year first grade test does a timed drill, allowing 6 seconds per addition/subtraction fact. They are all 0-10. The end of year second grade test also does a timed drill, and 5 seconds are allowed for each problem (they're oral, btw), and those are sums that go over 10 (6 + 7, 8 + 4, etc.), so they utilize regrouping strategies.

 

No multiplication drills in that test, as she doesn't introduce that until 2B. I don't have grade 3 to compare multiplication fact time yet.

[Tress]

Thanks Boscopup!

 

And before anyone thinks that I'm competing with my child while doing math facts :D of course I don't :D. It's just that I have seen some many posters who write that their child is able to do mental math much faster than they themselves can....that I started to doubt my daughters speed.

 

(Ahhh, I'm so tired...I can't write in English anymore.....please disregard any jumbled sentences. Baby sleep, please.:tongue_smilie:)

[Spy Car]

Thanks Boscopup!

 

And before anyone thinks that I'm competing with my child while doing math facts :D of course I don't :D. It's just that I have seen some many posters who write that their child is able to do mental math much faster than they themselves can....that I started to doubt my daughters speed.

 

(Ahhh, I'm so tired...I can't write in English anymore.....please disregard any jumbled sentences. Baby sleep, please.:tongue_smilie:)

 

It is a weird feeling when they are faster than you. Especially if you know they calculated it (rather than it just being "memory"). It does not happen very often (yet) in my home. But it has. I am getting much faster too, but my son will keep me on my toes, until one day when it will be all over.

 

Bill

[wapiti]

Food for thought: “Faster isn’t Smarterâ€

http://mathsolutions.com/documents/9781935099031_message18.pdf

[Spy Car]

Food for thought: “Faster isn’t Smarterâ€

http://mathsolutions.com/documents/9781935099031_message18.pdf

 

Spot on!

 

Bill

[Ohdanigirl]

Food for thought: “Faster isn’t Smarterâ€

http://mathsolutions.com/documents/9781935099031_message18.pdf

 

Great point. Thanks for posting.

 

Danielle

[Tress]

It is a weird feeling when they are faster than you. Especially if you know they calculated it (rather than it just being "memory"). It does not happen very often (yet) in my home. But it has. I am getting much faster too, but my son will keep me on my toes, until one day when it will be all over.

 

Bill

 

Completely out of curiosity: Bill, you are in 2A now, right?

We are just a couple of weeks into 2B.

Mental math sheet 15 in 2B has problems of this type:

78-36=

51-38=

73-66=

So no memorisation.

 

I can beat my daughter easily. I mean EASILY. She has to think about these problems, I can give the answer as fast as I can read the sum aloud, so no pausing, just 78-36=42, 51-38=13 etc. (Of course I do not give the answer aloud, only silently in my head.) I can't see her beating me in the near future.

 

At what level do you think your son will beat you and 'it will be all over' :lol:?

[Spy Car]

Completely out of curiosity: Bill, you are in 2A now, right?

We are just a couple of weeks into 2B.

Mental math sheet 15 in 2B has problems of this type:

78-36=

51-38=

73-66=

So no memorisation.

 

I can beat my daughter easily. I mean EASILY. She has to think about these problems, I can give the answer as fast as I can read the sum aloud, so no pausing, just 78-36=42, 51-38=13 etc. (Of course I do not give the answer aloud, only silently in my head.) I can't see her beating me in the near future.

 

At what level do you think your son will beat you and 'it will be all over' :lol:?

 

 

 

We are in the early part of 2B as well. So we are working though those same problems. I just can't generalize.

 

 

Sometimes when we are working in the Textbook he will act as if he needs me to walk through the strategies with him (including ones I know he knows).

 

Usually I'm "faster" working the strategies than he is (sometimes by a good deal). But on rare occasions the "answer" just pops out before I've done it, and when pressed to explain his method he has it down. This is not typical, but I know he is a kid who sometimes hides what he knows too.

 

How long I've got is anybody's guess :D

 

But I'm in training!

 

Bill (still faster than a 6.5 year-old :tongue_smilie:)

[Tress]

How long I've got is anybody's guess :D

 

But I'm in training!

 

Bill (still faster than a 6.5 year-old :tongue_smilie:)

 

:lol: Isn't homeschooling great!

[TCB]

Several posters mentioned other methods than speed drills for learning facts. I wonder if anyone would mind elaborating on this. I really need to be working with my dds on this but they aren't too keen on speed drills.

This is probably a stupid question but I am not very experienced teaching math.

[Tress]

We played Sum Swamp and did some RightStart Math Games.

At the moment I'm a bit busy with my 4yo,2yo,newborn to play games, so we use a flashmaster.

 

HTH

[TCB]

We have been playing some games, maybe not consistently enough. I just am not sure if it is a systematic way of making sure they learn them, maybe would be if we were more consistent with it. I haven't heard of Sum Swamp - where would I find it?

Thanks for your help

[JennyD]

We recently started doing Singapore Math Sprints -- it's one minute per 'sprint' (worksheet), and then the child does the matching worksheet as a second one-minute 'sprint,' trying to beat the first one by getting more done/correct.

 

I have never been a fan of timed anything, myself -- worksheets, exams, etc. -- but my son is not me, and he LOVES these drills. He finds them way more exciting than regular math. Go figure.

[Spy Car]

Several posters mentioned other methods than speed drills for learning facts. I wonder if anyone would mind elaborating on this. I really need to be working with my dds on this but they aren't too keen on speed drills.

This is probably a stupid question but I am not very experienced teaching math.

 

Right Start has a very complete set of math games. It is a little expensive new (about $50) but they have proved very popular with my boy and and very effective in working on speed and memory.

 

Bill

[TCB]

Right Start has a very complete set of math games. It is a little expensive new (about $50) but they have proved very popular with my boy and and very effective in working on speed and memory.

 

Bill

 

 

I take it these games can be used separately from the whole program. I'l have to have a look.

Thanks

[Spy Car]

I take it these games can be used separately from the whole program. I'l have to have a look.

Thanks

 

Yes they can, absolutely.

 

Bill

[Old Dominion Heather]

I would just be cautious not to let goal-oriented expectations on speed-drills cause stress and "math anxiety" with a 7 year old.

 

The Saxon obsession with speed drills causes a fair number of kids to crumble and to develop math phobias. How many parents have come on this forum to say: "my child used to love math, not they hate it and think that they are stupid."

 

At this age that is at least as great a danger as not being "fast." There are many less stressful ways to get this practice than timed tests. I would exercise caution.

 

Bill

 

Just want to jump in and agree with Bill here. Timed drills used to reduce my boy to tears daily... and this was my brilliant mathy kid. He did fine, as long as I told him he wasn't being timed. Add a timer and his score would go down by half. He knew his facts when he needed them... there was no reason to do timed drills.