The WTMA course syllabus says you read 50-75 pages per week and each week do a 1-2 page written summary in response to a question each week, plus write-up a summary of the week's reading. That sounded very time consuming so I was looking for something lighter. But maybe it's not bad in reality?

Fading vaccine immunity is the reason we need herd immunity...for everyone's protection.

I am pro-vaccine. I am extremely frustrated with anti-vaxx pediatricians who spread disinformation and generate fear among parents...these docs, who are simply not very smart because they mis-read and mis-quote medical studies, are the true source of the problem. However I'm also frustrated with the no-vaxx-ever-for-my-kid parents (not the parents who selectively make specific delays or decisions for particular kids) for believing the conspiracy theories, etc, and shattering the herd immunity that we all need. My own anecdote: We moved to southern California 1.5 years ago. Within 2 months, my 10- year old twins got pertussis. They'd had all 5 vaccinations for pertussis, so they got it because herd immunity had broken down. One of my kids in particular struggled so hard to catch her breath with each coughing fit I actually thought she might die. It was terrifying. I understand that my kids' pertussis was likely a reduced version of what they would have experienced if they didn't have the vaccine. We went to our new homeschool group not knowing they had pertussis (doc thought it was allergic reaction causing bronchial spasming and told me they were safe to go to school). When I insisted on pertussis testing and got a positive result, I was told the health department would call me and the school. After 6 hours, they hadn't called so I wrote to the school director. This pretty much set off a panic in our homeschool community (and I was the villain for bringing pertussis to the community) because there are many anti-vaxxers, and of course many families with babies. Not only was I worried about my own kids, I was also worried about what might happen to other kids/families in our community. The health department was totally casual about it and said I didn't have to do anything or notify anyone and they probably wouldn't get around to telling the school for quite some time. They said some schools send a note home but many don't and they aren't required to notify parents that their kid may have been exposed to pertussis. I am baffled by this. When I had to switch docs due to insurance reasons, I went to a high profile pediatrician who described himself online and in writing as pro-vaccine. I told him the above story and said I wanted the TDAP for my now-due 11 year olds. He had zero reaction to the story.. After the exam, he started to leave. I reminded him they were due for TDAP. He said they follow an alternate vaccine schedule and would give it if I wanted it. (WHAT! He ignored my story and earlier specific request for the vaccine. Huh?) Later I learned he appeared in a recent anti-vaxx film. I wrote to him explaining why I was firing him. I've heard nothing back. No surprise.

We're moving from Chicago to California (San Clemente or somewhere near there), about July 1. I'm looking for referrals to homeschool groups (Christian, classical, or general) or co-schools (partial school programs for homeschoolers), or any general advice on moving to a new city/state with school age kids. Just as I was posting this I saw Well Trained Mind online classes which I had not noticed because I've not visited in a while...that might be a consideration for us to consider along with some "in real life" homeschool groups, co-school,etc. For background: We've been doing classical Christian homeschooling for 7 years; we did Classical Conversations Foundations and Essentials and also attended The Greenhouse Co-School in Wheaton IL which we loved and are really sad to leave. My oldest daughter is almost 13, adores reading, classical music, ballet, acting, Shakespeare, veterinary medicine and is doing an internship with our vet in Chicago (it will be very hard to leave that). My 9-year old daughter loves math, arts and crafts, and Minecraft; she is gifted mathematically and has ADHD. Both of my girls are socially quiet. My 9-year old son is more social than the girls, likes sports, yo-yo, and Minecraft; he has ADHD and dyslexia, dyscalculia and has done amazingly well working with tutors but is still rough around the edges in terms of working in a classroom setting...organizing papers and assignments and taking notes is all kind of beyond him at this point though he does fine in our co=school because I help him figure out what he needs to do, etc.. I mention the ADHD because as I was investigating possible schools, I discovered one school I was considering specifies that they will administer kid's medicines except under no circumstances will they administer ritalin " a performance-enhancing drug." I was shocked at this attitude so I thought I'd mention it because I don't want my kids in an environment that sees ADHD meds in that light. I also am seeking a Christian environment in which a literal 6-day creation is not required. I believe God is the creator of all, but I don't see new earth / old earth / literal 6-day creation, etc, as core to faith in Jesus Christ. I mention that because some environments are open on this point and others aren't. My husband is open to secular schools, and is asking me to be open so I'm trying. While we have homeschooled up to this point, as the kids get older I am more open to the idea of them going to a school, a good school, because I now know enough to have strong opinions! Just based on internet research, I like what I have read and seen in videos of Capistrano Valley Christian Schools because the way they describe their culture sounds great (they sound real and authentic to me, but that's just based on their website) and they offer a 2-day per week co-school as well as 5-day per week school through grade 12. And it is somewhat reasonably priced, or at least within consideration range for us. I ruled out some schools which might be good schools but I ruled them out if they seemed too stuck in a certain kind of curriculum, for example if it was mostly Abeka and not much else, that wouldn't be a fit for us. Or if all the science was Apologia (I might have to just accept that because that was the norm). If all the math is Saxon, it would probably not be a fit for us. We've used all Singapore Math and then Margaret Lial for later math plus The Great Courses. I'm open to any thoughts, suggestions, referrals. Denise

Hi, I was just trying to figure out where to post my request for advice / referrals for our move to southern California and found this post. I will go back and read this thread but here's what I was planning to post: We're moving from Chicago to California (San Clemente or somewhere near there), about July 1. I'm looking for referrals to homeschool groups (Christian, classical, or general) or co-schools (partial school programs for homeschoolers), or any general advice on moving to a new city/state with school age kids. For background: We've been doing classical Christian homeschooling for 7 years; we did Classical Conversations Foundations and Essentials and also attended The Greenhouse Co-School in Wheaton IL which we loved and are really sad to leave. My oldest daughter is almost 13, adores reading, classical music, ballet, acting, Shakespeare, veterinary medicine and is doing an internship with our vet in Chicago (it will be very hard to leave that). My 9-year old daughter loves math, arts and crafts, and Minecraft; she is gifted mathematically and has ADHD. Both of my girls are socially quiet. My 9-year old son is more social than the girls, likes sports, yo-yo, and Minecraft; he has ADHD and dyslexia, dyscalculia and has done amazingly well working with tutors but is still rough around the edges in terms of working in a classroom setting...organizing papers and assignments and taking notes is all kind of beyond him at this point though he does fine in our co=school because I help him figure out what he needs to do, etc.. I mention the ADHD because as I was investigating possible schools, I discovered one school I was considering specifies that they will administer kid's medicines except under no circumstances will they administer ritalin " a performance-enhancing drug." I was shocked at this attitude so I thought I'd mention it because I don't want my kids in an environment that sees ADHD meds in that light. I also am seeking a Christian environment in which a literal 6-day creation is not required. I believe God is the creator of all, but I don't see new earth / old earth / literal 6-day creation, etc, as core to faith in Jesus Christ. I mention that because some environments are open on this point and others aren't. My husband is open to secular schools, and is asking me to be open so I'm trying. While we have homeschooled up to this point, as the kids get older I am more open to the idea of them going to a school, a good school, because I now know enough to have strong opinions! Just based on internet research, I like what I have read and seen in videos of Capistrano Valley Christian Schools because the way they describe their culture sounds great (they sound real and authentic to me, but that's just based on their website) and they offer a 2-day per week co-school as well as 5-day per week school through grade 12. And it is somewhat reasonably priced, or at least within consideration range for us. I ruled out some schools which might be good schools but I ruled them out if they seemed too stuck in a certain kind of curriculum, for example if it was mostly Abeka and not much else, that wouldn't be a fit for us. Or if all the science was Apologia (I might have to just accept that because that was the norm). If all the math is Saxon, it would probably not be a fit for us. We've used all Singapore Math and then Margaret Lial for later math plus The Great Courses. I'm open to any thoughts, suggestions, referrals. Denise

I can't imagine another layer of challenge on top of what my ds has. And social thinking is a big layer! I'm very happy to hear that so much progress has been made for your ds this school year already. :) Environmentally, we have him work in the basement with his tutor at a real desk with minimal items on the desk (though clutter accumulates). A few reminder type post it notes on the wall in front of him but nothing very special. No special chair at this point. Before meds, it was a major struggle to get him to sit still for even one minute at the desk. 80% of my effort went into trying to get him to pay attention to whatever work he was doing, even when the work was jumping on the giant number line or throwing bean bags onto numbers or flash cards on the ground, etc. But at this point, there's really nothing special about his environment except working every day at the desk...consistency in the location and on the routine of the work. For most of this past 1.5 years he's done read alouds from a book for 10 minutes at a time, twice each hour, (reading and decoding was really hard for him, it was slow going) so that added up to one hour over the course of 3 tutoring hours. He continued to do a lot of reading up until fairly recently because his fluency / speed was low. It's quite a bit better now, so his read aloud time is a bit less but I'm not sure how much. The 297 page book he's finishing today was almost all read during tutoring time. I would be very happy to send you the Ready Freddy and Jack Stalwart books we have. I have been wanting them to go to a good home and it would really make my day to send them to you. OhE, have helped me tremendously when communicating with me directly and when I read your other posts on this site to others...I really appreciate how you help our community and would love to give you those books if you want them. Just PM me your address if interested.

Mosdos was a huge stretch for my ds in terms of amount and decoding too at the beginning of the year; I bought it because I wanted to have him try it at some point, whenever it seemed right and really it wasn't until probably January that he started it. Your ds' decoding is definitely better than mine's was at his age, and my ds could never ever read anything independently until about 6 months ago. Just struggled way too much with decoding and attention. I write that to hopefully encourage you that a lot can change over the course of some months. I remind myself sometimes that with ADHD, I've heard that the brain develops in the same sequence as an NT brain but an average 3 year delay. 3 years! So that plays a role in all of this too. I would also say that I love Mosdos because the stories are so uplifting, and they are really captivatingly beautiful and the workbook materials are good, and I love having vocabulary tied to the reading that he can learn, but my ds doesn't love it like I do. He'd probably rate it as maybe ok. However he does love Ready Freddy readers because they are goofy and full of boy humor and Jack Stalwart because it has James Bond style gadgetry and it's about spy stuff. What a tome!

Last thing to note: With Winston grammar and IEW writing books, I just gave them to her with just a bit of context from me and she just figured it out all on her own how to do it. She's very experienced and grasped how to use this material nearly instantly. This continues to surprise me. I just don't have to do all the hand-holding I thought I'd need to do and this is a godsend as I have a serious issue with my 11 year old, probably narcolepsy, which I've been immersed in trying to get my brain around. Writing all this reminds me how very generous God has been to us this season. happy sigh.

Yes, all they do is LA and Math. 3 hours per day, 3 days per week with 1 additional 2-hours on Saturday morning just for LA. That has been the schedule for this whole school year. Beyond that, we have 1 day per week at a one-day-a-week school-for-homeschoolers where he doesn't do any LA or math...the day there has History, Science, Performing Arts, and Art, so it's a really nice break from the remediation / intense work. This is kind of a blow-by-blow which I'm describing here because I believe your ds is further ahead than my ds was at his equivalent age and I myself am amazed at where he is now and I thought you might want to see the progression. I couldn't have foreseen or imagined that he'd be doing so well at this point. My ds wil be 9 in August (born a few weeks before due date...if he were going to Chicago PS he'd be among the youngest in 3rd grade). According to his tutor who has lots of experience with testing and levels, he is at middle of third grade reading level now, which is an absolute miracle. In September of 2014 he had 3 sight words. 3. All the OG phonics I had taught him had never made it into his brain. From one day to the next absolutely nothing stuck. He had never read a sentence and didn't know what a period was. Here is the progression: 1) kickoff 9 weeks of intense tutoring at LMB where they got him out of the dead stop position and got him moving down the track...in 10 weeks they made huge progress with him because they worked with him for 4 straight hours everyday doing highly repetitive tasks, with lots of highly evolved reward mechanisms to keep him interested and able to focus...they are so skilled at keeping kids with ADHD focused, it's amazing to watch. I could never ever have gotten that much attention from him when he wasn't on medication. And their process works because it is so intense, it keeps hitting the same info over and over so that even a kid who has serious memory problems (my ds has 4th percentil working memory) will get it. Like I said, I'd spent tons of time with him using OG but because I became exasperated, I didn't do that much each day and it just didn't stick. 2) After LMB was done in December, I was not able to come close to keeping up, things went downhill, my husband quit his job and our homeschool got really sloppy, went on an extended vacation and did virtually nothing from January to June. He'd forgotten a ton and didn't want to read at all. But in July, I got a former LMB tutor to work with him. In just a couple of weeks he was back where he left off. From that time on, he made steady progress, even though he wasn't on medication, because she knows the genius methods to keep an ADHD kid focused/interested and do it frequently and repetitively enough that it sticks. So by summer's end (about 5 weeks of tutoring 2 hours per day 3 days/week), he was doing better, but still probably early second grade reading level, maybe. 3)Then, enter medication (wow) and a new tutor who has a heart of gold and book knowledge about how to work with kids with ADHD but no actual experience. I think if he had not been on meds he would have made decent progress (he is good at derailing someone who doesn't know how to handle his opposition and tricks to get out of hard work) but on meds, he was doing amazing. At that point I realized that because he was on meds, he didn't need a 'special' tutor; just about any reasonable tutor could be successful with him; we didn't have to have the super fantastic LMB process and reward structures to keep him on task. That was a huge revelation. 4) The new tutor used the same repetitive cycle of tasks that the LMB tutor had shown her (I'll explain that below). She was able to do that successfully and then we added in Apples and Pears which is highly scripted so she didn't need any help or training from me on how to do it. Even though it starts with just tracing some letters and saying their sounds out loud, it wasn't easy for him because he had hardly ever had any practice with writing anything and he has dysgraphia so it's hard and his hand gets tired easily. We started OT about that time too. 5) Started ShapeMath at that time and began with him watching a few of the videos and using the pieces to do addition problems up to 9+9 initially. Prior to that I'd been beating my head against the wall trying to get him to understand math concepts...number line, simple addition, anything, the basics. But now, I don't know if it was the meds or ShapeMath or the combination but wow, he started zooming forward. Long story short, he was nowheresville in September and is now doing long division. Seriously amazing. And I had a switchover of tutors when the first one had to do her internship and it was pretty seamless because there was a lot of structure to the days. The two tutors had one two-hour session together and I had the new tutor watch the ShapeMath videos and that was all it took; it just wasn't rocket science because of the straightforward nature of the daily structure and because my ds was on meds, he was able to focus and cooperate. The new tutor turned out to be just as wonderful as the other...lucky me. Original 4 hour structure from LMB days: 10 minutes using Seeing Stars sightword flashcards (the list goes up to 1000 words) 10 minutes using a Seeing Stars decoding workbook 10 minutes reading text aloud 10 minutes of air writing words and other visualization techniques to develop visual imagery 10 minutes of something else (don't remember ...some variation on what I've already mentioned) 5 minute break Then start that over again the next hour with a different tutor at LMB, repeat 4 times altogether That one-hour structure was used up until very recently for at least 1 out of the 3 hours. Now the structure is this: First hour of the day is LA; a mix of reading aloud, Apples and Pears, and sight words and discussing vocabulary as it comes up in the reading (ds is almost done with a 297 page book, George's Secret Key to the Universe, written by Stephen Hawking and his daughter....I cannot believe that he has done this!) Second hour is all math; a mix of ShapeMath, reviewing and repeating things he already knows how to do and adding complexity as appropriate, doing Singapore Math workbook (it's slow but steady), and flash card drills (just reviewing them again and again and who knows, they might stick). Third hour is similar to first hour but swapping in Mosdos stories and workbook some weeks and comprehension work on other weeks (McCall Crabbs). On Saturday we have a different tutor, our very experienced one. She has wanted to move on past reading because he's really got it already so I told her I wanted her to try two new things: Winston Grammar and beginning IEW writing using the Fun and Fascinating workbook (and he watches the SWI-A videos on his own, not during tutor time). Interestingly, I had thought grammar might be a no-go because it's so conceptual and I thought a lot of dyslexic kids struggled with grammar but he's actually doing great with it. The Winston grammar program is made for kids like my ds...it's hands-on and visual...I don't know if that's why this has been going well or if it's because in CC he's memorized a lot of definitions along the way so even though he never understood them before, maybe it's clicking in (????) Sorry so very long, I just don't know what bits might be helpful so I'm just writing them all.

Forgot to mention...I thought a lot about how to structure pay for prep time and ultimately decided I wanted to be in charge of what got done (didn't want them spending time thinking of lesson plans or curriculum, etc) so my expectation is that they don't do anything outside of their time in our home, unless I specifically ask them to do a concrete activity such as watch the ShapeMath videos and in that case, I told them I'd pay them their regular rate for up to xx hours to watch specifically these video segments.

Hi OhE, I'm excited that you're getting some tutoring help, a tutor who is a known quantity to your behaviorist. 3 hours per day is fantastic. I agree with Mainer in that it is likely to be a big success in the long run (and probably the short run too) at least in part because the tutor is interested in working with your child and others like him, and she will be ready when she walks in to help him succeed (not worn out). I have had 5 tutors in the last 1.5 years and 4 of them have been amazing (one was an adult who cancelled frequently due to illness). The other 4 were all in grad school for education or special education. Two had a wealth of experience already and two had little practical experience but tons of interest, passion, warmth, congeniality, patience, and book knowledge from school--and a real willingness to learn, an appreciation of the opportunity to build skills in their field, and an appreciation of all the cool materials I have. I'll share some of our experiences in case there might be some useful ideas for you. For the first 8 months, my ds wasn't on medication but even then, his ability to stay focused with them and be successful -- even though they were using repetitive activitties---was dramatically different than it was working with me. Dramatic. I was initially very helicopter-home-educator over their activities but once they'd been around a while, I was surprised at the things they observed and suggested themselves and at this point, I'm really hands off day to day because they are doing a great job. It's such a relief to me; I'd never expected they'd be proactive in thinking about what should be coming next, but they are. And the best part is that my ds has loved each of them and never, really never, complains when I wake him up to meet with his tutors, even on Saturdays. He loves feeling successful and they bring that about. He knows he's making remarkable progress and it fuels his willingness to work hard (this was true before medication and now that he's on medication, it's just easier for him). One thing that helped me a lot when I wanted to maximize all the learning was for my husband to continue his mantra..."remember, it's a win if he likes to learn and doesn't hate school...the pace isn't important...if at the end of the year he doesn't have his math facts down but he still enjoys learning, that's a win." That helped me to remember that even if each day's progress doesn't look like much, it does add up, and will start adding up exponentially if he's enjoying it. So I shared that with the tutors so they knew we were not looking for learning at any price... We started using Apples and Pears for spelling and writing based on opinions from this board. It was a great decision because it is so scripted, it's totally open-and-go and you can have the confidence that you know exactly how it's going to go. My ds had done zero spelling or handwriting as of early October and now has completed book A. (he has ADHD, dysgraphia, dyslexia, and dyscalculia, and anxiety). Because of its structure, my ds can't argue with anything (arguing about how to do things is a big problem for him). A bit more of our experience...maybe something in here will spark some ideas for you... I put up the Social Thinking posters of the Thinkables and Unthinkables in the bathroom on the wall where you are looking if using the toilet. That turned out to be a brilliant decision. All 3 of my kids adopted the lingo and, without any training from me, started using the language of "rock brain has gotten control of your brain" , etc, in a way that didn't single him out and made it effortless to get at least the idea started. I actually bought all the books from that series and haven't used them yet but have gotten a lot of mileage out of the posters. I'd be willing to hand that over to a tutor to walk through with him. After a few months of ShapeMath (and starting ADHD meds), which I love to the nth degree but so far no one else seems to want to try (?), he had made such big strides in understanding math concepts that I started him in Singapore 3A. (I had the tutor watch the ShapeMath videos and I made ShapeMath flashcards and magnetic pieces and we did everything that way for about 4 months...it turned out to be much easier for the tutor to understand this than I thought...I just showed her what kind of problems to do for a given day or week and she'd keep making up problems of that type using the shape math pieces for quite a while until he got it and then we'd add another bit to it..with just a few minutes of demonstration from me each day or week, she could pick right up on it and carry it forward. I think I'm a micromanager at heart and continued to be surprised at what the tutors could do. Given his conceptual gains, I surprised myself by being willing to jump from pure math manipulatives straight into Singapore 3A...it is going well. It's slow going, since he didn't do the prior levels of SM he has to learn the whole way it is structured but he really likes it because he loves having his own math workbook. He feels successful. I asked him a few months ago how he feels about how he's doing in school this year and he said he feels more mature. I think he's proud of himself. And using a real math workbook, for him, makes it feel like he's doing real school. Using a workbook sounds so dull and counter-intuitive but was a winner with my ds. I also had the tutor do the McCall-Crabbs reading comprehension paragraphs with him. He loved doing them. I gave him time and a half (4.5 minutes vs 3) because that's what the neuropsych recommended for timed tests for him. The tutor also does Mosdos Press literature study with him, using the workbook, not as often as I like but I like the program. I like that it's open-and-go for the tutor and the vocabulary is the best part of it...I made a quizlet file of the vocab words in addition to the exercises in the book using the vocab words. The tutors spend a lot of time having him read aloud...series that he likes and that are in the sweet spot of his reading level and interest. Ready Freddy, Capitol Mysteries, and Jack Stalwart have been big hits. Also, they drill sight words using the Seeing Stars sight word list and when they ran out, they still added sight words from material I provided like science or history topics. So they cycle through these various activities, mostly spending 10 minutes on each activity, for which he earns star cards, and then recycle through the same activities the next hour. Keeps things moving along and he sees rewards building up. He redeems these after a few months for a Lego set. I hope the tutoring help ends up much better than you can even anticipate!

My ds 8 has dyslexia and dyscalculia. When we started using ShapeMath, everything got so very much better. Instead of me trying to explain with words and squiggles (numbers), I could use the Shapes to communicate with him. He was able to really get it. For me, it meant working with him on math became fun (ok, well not always). I actually enjoy using ShapeMath myself but I mostly love that I don't end up in arguments with my ds. ShapeMath enables him to picture 9+8 as specific shapes and then he can "see" that it's 17. As we moved on past addition and subtraction (finally!!!) the big surprise was how easy it was for him to learn division and in fact, that is his favorite. One of the first problems I gave him was 42 divided by 7 and, by drawing the shape of 42 and 'cutting out' successive shapes of 7, he could see how many 7's he'd cut out. I remember having him divide 27 by 3 and his next problem was something like 49 divided by 3 and he didn't even have to draw it, he could picture how he would divide it and he "saw' the pattern in his head about how you can take 3 threes out of each ten with one left over and then pile up the leftover 1's to make more 3's and he answered the problem within a few seconds. That kind of mental leap, from him, blew me away! He is now learning long division and it's going well. IHe hasn't memorized the facts though he knows some. That may take a much longer time if ever but he can use a facts table and he 'gets' what he's doing). He doesn't use ShapeMath for every problem but that is how he understands the math and he can go back and forth between normal representations of numbers, the shapemath pieces, and his own drawings of shapemath pieces. When he gets stuck on something, I suggest he picture it in shapemath. He doesn't always like to do that (I think he doesn't like doing it differently than his sisters and everybody else) but that's what works for him to understand. ShapeMath has specific ways of picturing time and converting seconds to minutes and minutes to hours. It also has specific ways of picturing money. It takes an investment of time for you and for your child to learn ShapeMath but it's made a world of difference for us.

My ds started Focalin XR in September and it's been a game-changer in many aspects and, though it hasn't "gotten rid of" all the ADHD symptoms, it has made it possible to work with him with a therapist on skills and focus on schoolwork, etc, and he loves his success!!! A funny moment: The other day I told him he'd been working hard for an hour, did he want to run back and forth in the basement? He scrunched up his face and looked at me and said "WHY would I want to do THAT?" Internally, I laughed. He doesn't seem to be aware that when he's not on medication he is flailing around, flinging himself in all directions constantly and unable to sit still for one minute and he spends much of the dayon breaks to swing, run, skate around the house, etc. Good luck to you SDel.

My 11-year old dd is quite similar. She's doing Lial's Pre-Algebra and she likes it a lot. There is loads of explanation and she works very independently. (She had completed Singapore Math through 5B). Also, she is doing a Certified Veterinary Assistant program through Texas A&M. It's $80 and made for kids. It's one large e-book that covers all the material needed to take the board certification to become a CVA. The student needs 500 internship hours in order to take the exam (or to get the designation CVA...maybe you can sit for the exam without the hours???? I don't remember.) My dd loves working through this very comprehensive program. We're thinking it would be great if she could be a CVA in high school or college...sure beats working at McDonalds! (I just went to their website to get a link and realized I found it quite confusing before and my husband helped her find this program...looking at their website I'm not sure precisely what she is using...if you want to know more, just write me back and I'll ask her.)

We've used the Draw3D website for several years and love it, even though it is random. The books just didn't go over here with the kids. Then I accidentally subscribed to the virtual classroom version of Mark Kistler and hated it completely, it seemed to be a horrible mess of technology and I asked for a refund to go back to Draw3D but it turns out they are two different organizations. I'd strongly recommend Draw3D.