MCT Writing - Slight Panic

[PenKase]

Ok, have you read this by 8FillTheHeart:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244785

(Sorry for the no link.....can't figure it out on the IPad.....can someone link please.)

 

I'm trying not to panic but I thought I had LA in the bag with MCT! What do you think?

 

 

ETA:n/m

Edited February 13, 2011 by PenKase

[Capt_Uhura]

I haven't thought past Voyage level really. I'll take a look at the upper level curricula at the convention. HOpefully, I can discuss this w/ MCT himself.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[radiobrain]

It doesn't panic or surprise me at all.

 

Even if all of her opinions are totally true (which I still will take with a grain of salt as a personal opinion... as I am not a stickler for such things... no curriculum will ever be perfect, or there would only be one curriculum....), I still believe that being taught with MCT will still have your kids light years ahead of most kids coming from brick & mortar schools. KWIM? If that bugs you, if you even notice it, that is a far smaller aspect to tweak or teach differently than with many other curricula.

[8filltheheart]

It doesn't panic or surprise me at all.

 

Even if all of her opinions are totally true (which I still will take with a grain of salt as a personal opinion... as I am not a stickler for such things... no curriculum will ever be perfect, or there would only be one curriculum....), I still believe that being taught with MCT will still have your kids light years ahead of most kids coming from brick & mortar schools. KWIM? If that bugs you, if you even notice it, that is a far smaller aspect to tweak or teach differently than with many other curricula.

 

Since the entire point of AAW level 1 and level 2 is teaching proper format for essay and MLA writing, I'm not quite sure that "being a stickler" is an appropriate classification.

 

It is a pretty serious issue as far as I am concerned. This isn't diagramming vs. not. Nor is it small mistakes here and there scattered throughout the texts. The essays are the teaching material for the texts.

Edited February 13, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Guest]

Let me begin by saying that I have not seen the MCT materials to which the thread refers. However, I have published several academic articles, taught university-level writing classes, and have a lit PhD; and I can say that quotations are used in various ways in academic writing. Much of the time yes, you introduce a longer quotation in the early or middle part of a paragraph and then take it apart, analyze it, point out its characteristics, etc. However, at other times it is perfectly reasonable to end a paragraph with a long quotation that sums up or illustrates the issues you have been discussing in that paragraph.

 

There is no set "rule" in higher academic writing. The paragraph form should stem from your purpose in that paragraph, and you can use quotations in a variety of ways -- and therefore positions -- in a given paragraph.

 

It can be easier for high school kids learning to write longer academic papers to have the quotes embedded in the paragraph simply to remind themselves that they need to discuss what they quote, not just let it sit there. But there is no set-in-stone right or wrong in the long term. Form should follow function. I'd hate for anyone to think that they "should" give up a program like MCT that they really like because of this issue.

 

One of my papers is online if anybody wants to see that I ended several paragraphs with longer quotes. I had other embedded quotes, but the paper was edited for length and those were the ones that went out. I'll go look up the web site and come back to add it here.

 

Oops -- it used to be free for viewing but apparently now you have to pay to read. Sorry about that. If anyone is THAT consumed with interest, look up the title, "Fasting Women: Bodily Claims and Narrative Crises in Eighteenth-Century Science."

Edited February 13, 2011 by Guest

[8filltheheart]

Let me begin by saying that I have not seen the MCT materials to which the thread refers. However, I have published several academic articles, taught university-level writing classes, and have a lit PhD; and I can say that quotations are used in various ways in academic writing. Much of the time yes, you introduce a longer quotation in the early or middle part of a paragraph and then take it apart, analyze it, point out its characteristics, etc. However, at other times it is perfectly reasonable to end a paragraph with a long quotation that sums up or illustrates the issues you have been discussing in that paragraph.

 

There is no set "rule" in higher academic writing. The paragraph form should stem from your purpose in that paragraph, and you can use quotations in a variety of ways -- and therefore positions -- in a given paragraph.

 

It can be easier for high school kids learning to write longer academic papers to have the quotes embedded in the paragraph simply to remind themselves that they need to discuss what they quote, not just let it sit there. But there is no set-in-stone right or wrong in the long term. Form should follow function. I'd hate for anyone to think that they "should" give up a program like MCT that they really like because of this issue.

 

One of my papers is online if anybody wants to see that I ended several paragraphs with longer quotes. I had other embedded quotes, but the paper was edited for length and those were the ones that went out. I'll go look up the web site and come back to add it here.

 

Oops -- it used to be free for viewing but apparently now you have to pay to read. Sorry about that. If anyone is THAT consumed with interest, look up the title, "Fasting Women: Bodily Claims and Narrative Crises in Eighteenth-Century Science."

 

Well, perhaps keeping in mind that these are writing materials meant to instruct middle and high school students write should be a consideration.

 

Also, actually looking at what is being discussed prior to dismissing a concern might help. :confused: http://www.rfwp.com/samples/3-pages-one-glance.pdf At least 2 times in that example a single sentence introduces a long quote and that is all that constitutes a paragraph.

 

It may not be an issue that everyone cares about. It probably isn't an issue that a phD would worry about when writing personally. However, it is a concern for me b/c I do not believe that many teachers or professors are going to appreciate the style. (fwiw.....again, it isn't like this is the odd paragraph ending with a long quote. It is every single time a long quote is used.)

 

ETA: FWIW, I posted my concerns b/c I had previously endorsed MCT and shared just how much I enjoyed it. Now that I have reached the MLA section in EV and have been using AAW as well, I no longer feel that way. Everyone needs to make decisions for themselves. I am certainly not attempting in anyway to tell people to not use MCT.

Edited February 13, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Miss Marple]

Writing has been the bane of our homeschool. I've used myriad programs, outsourced, you name it, we've probably done it. And, in the end, I have found with my 2 who have taken university level courses that each teacher has a different way of interpreting the "right" way. MLA, while standard according to the books, is taught differently by each different teacher. So, it often doesn't really matter what we teach as "right"; there is bound to be a professor somewhere who prefers it a different way and our students need to learn to be flexible in order to succeed.

 

My uneducated but experienced opinion is that there is NO perfect writing program - they all have a drawback of some sort. You just have to find out which one you can live with or without. Our best efforts have come from just writing and rewriting. And, surprisingly, my boys have become good writers or so I've been told. I still only see their glaring errors, but their instructors are highly complimentary. My oldest even had a paper nominated for publication as a freshman at his university - the publication never happened because of budget cuts, though.

 

I have AAW1 and will be using it shortly. We haven't been using a writing curriculum per se this year, rather we have just been writing, editing, and rewriting. I haven't spent much time looking into the actual mechanics MCT teaches so I cannot comment on that, but I like his philosophy of teaching writing and his grading techniques. It resonates more with me than IEW ever did.

 

I imagine, though, that we will use it as we have other programs - taking the good and discussing why we don't do some of the other things. And it will be mixed with all the other knowledge we've gleaned from the other programs we've used. In the end, it will just be another tool in our writing bucket.

[PenKase]

Admittedly, I had a total knee jerk reaction when I read 8's post and did start to panic a bit :blushing::blushing:. I don't have the years of experience some of you have here and it's been great gleaning information on these boards from those of who with more notches on your belt. At the moment, I have to rely on curricula and the expertise of the professionals/authors who write them more than I'd like until I can sort things out for myself and feel comfortable enough to tweak it and/or go without one altogether. Soooooo, using a program like MCT has been heaven sent to me because it's delivery and style is so incredibly appealing to me and my dd.

 

I'm off my box now. Thank you.

[Guest]

Writing has been the bane of our homeschool. I've used myriad programs, outsourced, you name it, we've probably done it. And, in the end, I have found with my 2 who have taken university level courses that each teacher has a different way of interpreting the "right" way. MLA, while standard according to the books, is taught differently by each different teacher. So, it often doesn't really matter what we teach as "right"; there is bound to be a professor somewhere who prefers it a different way and our students need to learn to be flexible in order to succeed.

 

My uneducated but experienced opinion is that there is NO perfect writing program - they all have a drawback of some sort. You just have to find out which one you can live with or without.

 

:iagree:

 

Absolutely. What happens with most writing programs is that the authors begin with flexibility and multiple models in mind; but over the years as they refine what they're doing and their market becomes wider, they find their audience/market prefers them to present their ideas as "this way" rather than "one way" or "here are a bunch of different ways to consider." This is true in terms of the writing process, outlining styles, how much time to spend in the "inventio" stage of writing, how much emphasis to put on rewriting, and how to structure a paper.

 

Some of the best things you can do for AND WITH your kids are: read a lot of great literature, talk about what you read, look carefully at wonderful sentences that catch your eye, write a lot, and stress that there is no single, perfect, one-way-fits-all-people-and-all-situations way to go about producing an essay.

[Tiramisu]

Yup. When I went to university my instructors used APA. All of them. I'm not even familiar with MLA.

 

In one MA program I was in, we were given a specific departmental style sheet and told to refer to the Chicago Manual of Style if something wasn't covered. In another, the school changed from recommending the Turabian Manual for Writers to another (MLA?) midway through my time there.:glare:

 

Despite the variety of acceptable styles, 8's point is significant. It is important to support quotations, draw out their significance. I suppose in some instances, it could be acceptable to end a paragraph with a longer quotation, but I think it would be an exception rather than the rule.

[kokotg]

I haven't read all the responses, but I did read the original thread and the essay it linked to...for me, it's not a big concern. We're not close to there yet (DS is doing Town level this year), but when we get there it's something we'll note and move on. I taught freshman comp classes in grad school, and I can say that it's an issue that barely would have registered with me had it come up on a student paper. I might have made a note on the paper, but I wouldn't have counted off on a grade because of it. Honestly, I don't think my own professors would have paid much attention to it on MY papers. Explaining the significance of a quotation is essential, sure, but it looked to me like the example essay did that, just in a new paragraph. The kids I was teaching were, by and large, writing at such a low level (and this was at a very selective college) that I was absolutely thrilled if any of them could use a quotation from the text to effectively support their thesis (and, you know, if they could actually come up with a thesis).

[Trish]

I'm not going to sweat it. If I need them to adjust when the time comes, we'll make the adjustment. Don't want to throw out a wonderful language program with the bathwater.

[Create Your Ritual]

8FillTheHeart,

 

Since you are no longer going to be using MCT LA, can you tell me what direction you might choose to go in the future?

 

Having only used MCT Island this year, we have really enjoyed it. It is a bit choppy to me, and throws things at them sometimes in the Practice Island that they haven't even learned yet, but I know that both dd9 and ds7 have learned something. Just the fact that a 7 year old is doing 4 part sentence analysis is 'something' in my book. If nothing else, readings from Sentence Island break up the monotony of daily R&S English lessons that we also do.

 

Having said all of that, I was intending to continue using MCT next year with the Town Level. It hasn't been my sole writing or grammar curriculum, as we have also incorporated Writing Tales, WWE and some MC into the mix. It keeps them interested when I switch things up. Also it is my first year hs and I didn't want to put all my eggs in one basket, so to speak. I don't really know WHAT the best direction to go is, and had hoped that as the year progressed I would be able to find my comfort zone with one of them I am using.

 

I looked over the examples you gave of MCTs, and not knowing ANYTHING about that level of grammar myself (at least not remembering it for now .. with a housebuilding project and a two year old running around), all I can say is that all those quotes and indentations make it hard to read. It's choppy, and hard to understand. I wished it flowed a little better on the page.

 

Besides the indentations and quote placement being incorrect in your view, have you found it an easy LA to teach? Has it grown your child's understanding of grammar and writing over the years?

 

Had he been teaching the concept correctly in your eyes, would you have continued, or are there other things about his program that are helping make your decision to quit it in the future?

 

Are there better writing programs for those people that would be entering into Essay Voyage that you feel are teaching these concepts correctly? As I said, I haven't been there yet, so it is helpful to see how it is working for others and also what they are using instead. Thanks so much!

Edited February 14, 2011 by SaDonna

[Ali in OR]

This example illustrates one reason to use multiple curricula sources for teaching. Different programs have different strengths, and frankly there is no one perfect curriculum out there for any subject. Perhaps writing instruction freaks us out a bit more than other subjects, but I can tell you that there are problems with other subjects too. As a former math teacher, I can look at a particular math lesson and say that our elementary book doesn't have something quite right. But since we use materials from 3 different sources, problems in one particular book are probably handled better/differently in another. And as the teacher, I help bring my kids through contradictory information or different approaches to a given topic. This is not unlike how a good teacher teaches in a school. Where I taught, we definitely had a main textbook for each course, but we had shelves of other books and sources that we could consult to make our teaching more complete.

 

MCT writing has some really good stuff in it. His approach is so much clearer to me than other writing programs. I love that my kids are getting to essays and academic writing before high school. There are other courses that seem indirect, or such a long confusing road, to get to the basics of how to write school papers. I love Paragraph Town. I'm looking forward to Essay Voyage. I really think that one discussion with my dds while working on a paper with long quotes will quickly address this problem. If you have enjoyed MCT materials or looked forward to using them, I would not let this derail your plans. We could take any writing program out there and list out several undesirable traits or problems with it. There is no perfect program.

[Colleen in NS]

However, at other times it is perfectly reasonable to end a paragraph with a long quotation that sums up or illustrates the issues you have been discussing in that paragraph.

 

I don't think 8FillTheHeart's problem was so much about *where* the quote lies in the paragraph. I think it was that the quote and the argument it supported were in two different paragraphs. Over and over again. See the next three quotes that make me think that this was her point:

 

after every single use of a long quote in his essay examples, he follows with new paragraph vs supporting the long quote within the same paragraph. The resulting paragraphs are weak and quotes are left unsupported by the writer.

 

it's not that the quotes are unsupported, it's just that they're not supported in the same paragraph

 

The problem that I have is that paragraph structure means something. You should be able to read a paragraph and essentially have a complete thought (parallel to sentence structure). When I read his paragraphs as written, his paragraphs are lacking.

 

I was very confused by reading his sample. I couldn't follow his thought from beginning to end in each paragraph - it seemed I had to keep jumping to a new paragraph to get the point of his last one, and that also made for a visual mess to my reading eyes. If that is representative of the majority of what is being taught in these books (the advanced books, right?), I wouldn't want to spend the money on them and use them (even if they were given to me!).

 

But, swimmermom3 asked about it on the RFP forums and she posted his response on my thread on the high school board. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2419383&page=2

 

(his response)..If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. ...

 

Also, what in the world does "even slightly" mean?? To me, those new paragraphs should have been with the previous paragraphs with the quotes, to continue the argument that the quotes were to be supporting. I mean, if an argument is meant to communicate something, shouldn't it be done simply and clearly, and doesn't some kind of convention (like keeping the argument and supporting quote in one paragraph) facilitate that?

 

I thought I had LA in the bag with MCT! What do you think?

 

Well, at least now you have some specific info., on specific books in the series, that you can use to make a decision you are comfortable with. :D You wouldn't be the first person to develop angst over a curriculum decision. I once bought a "wonderful" program for something I wanted to teach, and later found out that I'd spent $100 for something that didn't teach the way I later figured out I wanted to teach. It's sitting on my shelf, and I can't even sell it on the secondhand market in my area.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Tiramisu]

I don't think 8FillTheHeart's problem was so much about *where* the quote lies in the paragraph. I think it was that the quote and the argument it supported were in two different paragraphs. Over and over again. See the next three quotes that make me think that this was her point:

 

 

 

I was very confused by reading his sample. I couldn't follow his thought from beginning to end in each paragraph - it seemed I had to keep jumping to a new paragraph to get the point of his last one, and that also made for a visual mess to my reading eyes. If that is representative of the majority of what is being taught in these books (the advanced books, right?), I wouldn't want to spend the money on them and use them (even if they were given to me!).

 

 

 

Also, what in the world does "even slightly" mean?? To me, those new paragraphs should have been with the previous paragraphs with the quotes, to continue the argument that the quotes were to be supporting. I mean, if an argument is meant to communicate something, shouldn't it be done simply and clearly, and doesn't some kind of convention (like keeping the argument and supporting quote in one paragraph) facilitate that?

 

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. A logical argument should be presented in a logically organized format, a unity of form and content.

[Cleopatra]

I was very confused by reading his sample. I couldn't follow his thought from beginning to end in each paragraph - it seemed I had to keep jumping to a new paragraph to get the point of his last one, and that also made for a visual mess to my reading eyes. If that is representative of the majority of what is being taught in these books (the advanced books, right?), I wouldn't want to spend the money on them and use them (even if they were given to me!).

 

 

Also, what in the world does "even slightly" mean?? To me, those new paragraphs should have been with the previous paragraphs with the quotes, to continue the argument that the quotes were to be supporting. I mean, if an argument is meant to communicate something, shouldn't it be done simply and clearly, and doesn't some kind of convention (like keeping the argument and supporting quote in one paragraph) facilitate that?

 

:iagree: Absolutely, Colleen! It wasn't simply the quotes; the whole essay is weak.

 

Thanks for posting the sample link, 8FilltheHeart! Even though CW is working well for my dd, I was always very curious about MCT. Thanks to you, I can now mentally file it on my "not interested" shelf. :001_smile:

[shanvan]

when do these problems in MCT begin to show? From what I'm reading it is with EV? My DS just loves MCT and I was considering using EV next year. Now I'm rethinking. I do use multiple approaches, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be for us.

 

Shannon

 

 

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

:iagree: Absolutely, Colleen! It wasn't simply the quotes; the whole essay is weak.

 

Thanks for posting the sample link, 8FilltheHeart! Thanks to you, I can now mentally file it on my "not interested" shelf. :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

So I'm curious, what would be a good MLA resource if not AAW? I was planning on using AAW1 next year, but honestly, EV is not going well this year. What's taught in the text is not translating to their writing (well it's really one dd it's not working at all for, but I need something that works for both girls). My friend's ps'd 9th grader came over last night and happened to have some hand-outs from her school with guidelines on how to write an informative essay - my dd read those and said, oh, I need a introduction with a thesis with three supporting points, and then I write a paragraph with supporting details for each one, and then I summarize the thesis in the conclusion. I said, yes, that's what I've been saying all year!!! :banghead:

She somehow was not getting it from the MCT (or my summarizing it). Too wordy, I guess.

 

I was thinking of getting AAW1 anyway just as an MLA guideline resource, but if it's not even going to work for that, I should probably go in a different direction. Any recommendations?

[8filltheheart]

So I'm curious, what would be a good MLA resource if not AAW? I was planning on using AAW1 next year, but honestly, EV is not going well this year. What's taught in the text is not translating to their writing (well it's really one dd it's not working at all for, but I need something that works for both girls). My friend's ps'd 9th grader came over last night and happened to have some hand-outs from her school with guidelines on how to write an informative essay - my dd read those and said, oh, I need a introduction with a thesis with three supporting points, and then I write a paragraph with supporting details for each one, and then I summarize the thesis in the conclusion. I said, yes, that's what I've been saying all year!!! :banghead:

She somehow was not getting it from the MCT (or my summarizing it). Too wordy, I guess.

 

I was thinking of getting AAW1 anyway just as an MLA guideline resource, but if it's not even going to work for that, I should probably go in a different direction. Any recommendations?

 

What is a good MLA resource?? I am just going to go back to using the college handbooks I own. Purdue Owl is another good source. I personally prefer holding a book in my hands vs. viewing online.

[Matryoshka]

What is a good MLA resource?? I am just going to go back to using the college handbooks I own. Purdue Owl is another good source. I personally prefer holding a book in my hands vs. viewing online.

 

Heavens, am I that old? We didn't use MLA when I was in college. It was all footnotes at the end of the paper, or maybe at the bottom of the page! I really know nothing about MLA other than it uses those parenthesis thingys in the text instead of numbered footnotes. But the nitty-gritty - no idea.

 

I would also prefer a book to an online site. Anyone have a title - preferably something succint but complete?

[8filltheheart]

when do these problems in MCT begin to show? From what I'm reading it is with EV? My DS just loves MCT and I was considering using EV next year. Now I'm rethinking. I do use multiple approaches, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be for us.

 

Shannon

 

 

 

 

They show up in chpt 7 of EV. The difference between EV and the AAW levels is that EV includes copies of classic essays (like essay from Fredrick Douglass or the Gettysburg Address, etc). AAW only incorporates student essays in MLA format.

 

It is in the MLA format on essay instruction that you see it in EV.

 

FWIW........until this problem in EV, I enjoyed EV for the most part. I am not one that appreciates transcendentalist writing and it is heavy in examples from that genre. AAW, otoh, was not really a favorite to begin with. I don't agree with his assessment of many of the essays. There have a been a couple that he has said are examples of A essays that I have discussed with my kids about why I would not give them an A. (for example, too much re-telling of the plotline)

 

I have spent too much time thinking about this and I have got to move on.

 

As far as recommendations.......sadly, I don't have any. I have never found an English program that I have really liked. And I am not willing to overlook this issue.

Edited February 14, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Colleen in NS]

I was thinking of getting AAW1 anyway just as an MLA guideline resource, but if it's not even going to work for that, I should probably go in a different direction. Any recommendations?

 

I would also prefer a book to an online site. Anyone have a title - preferably something succint but complete?

 

I have this book on my shelf, at SWB's recommendation in the high school writing lecture, in preparation for me teaching high school writing: Writing Great Research Papers, by Laurie Rozakis. One of the blurbs on the front says, "Covers MLA, APA, and Chicago formats." It also seems succinct to me.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Quick-Writing-Research-Papers/dp/0071488480/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297710429&sr=8-1

 

Have a look at the Table of Contents online.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[8filltheheart]

Heavens, am I that old? We didn't use MLA when I was in college. It was all footnotes at the end of the paper, or maybe at the bottom of the page! I really know nothing about MLA other than it uses those parenthesis thingys in the text instead of numbered footnotes. But the nitty-gritty - no idea.

 

I would also prefer a book to an online site. Anyone have a title - preferably something succint but complete?

 

Trust me. I am sure I am older than you. I might have a 13 mod, but I am also getting ready to be a grandmother!! :lol:

 

I had to learn MLA with my oldest. It is my nemesis. I do not "know" it. I constantly have to look things up. I am an old "footnote" graduate, too.

 

I don't about the one that Colleen referenced. I am going to look into it. The best one I own (and that is all it is) is A Writer's Reference.

[junepep]

*delurks* Now I'm thoroughly confused.

 

The MLA style clearly indicates that a 4+ line quote (ie a long quote) should be always be indented without quotation marks and placed as a stand-alone paragraph. Therefore any text following it would be a separate paragraph.

 

Examples (only the first provides a full contextual example):

http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resdoc5e/pdf/MLA/Hacker-Orlov-MLA-Quote.pdf

http://www.write.armstrong.edu/handouts/MLAquotes.pdf

http://www.up.edu/lrc/writing/default.aspx?cid=3673&pid=239

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/03/

 

I checked my MLA book (as well the updated versions that I was able to access online above) and as far as I can tell the standard has not changed to include text as if it were part of the indented paragraph of the long quote. Am I completely misunderstanding the problem?

 

For example to incorporate a long quote:

a) say a few words about your quote (ie introduce it)

b) long quote indented + abbreviated citation.

c) support quote in the paragraph immediately following the long quote. Typically the paragraph under the quote is indented without a compelling reason not to. Stylistically, you can get away without doing so.

 

Although the example from MCT uses far too many long quotes in the example paper provided - and I would expect deductions for that - the quotes in and of themselves are correctly cited per MLA standards.

 

The reason why long quotes are discouraged is because they break up the line of thought within a paper and remove the reader from the immediacy of what's being written, creating a sense of discontinuity for the reader. Just as the people who have read the example have stated, it seems like a poorly written paper because of the long quotes. Any paper that has an abundance of long quotes is certainly going to read poorly --- it's just not done if you want an A or even a B ;) LOL.

 

However, in all seriousness, as an example text providing students with samples to correctly cite long quotes in MLA format, the MCT text provided appears accurate. . .

 

:confused: What on earth am I missing?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

PS - the actual MLA handbooks are available for purchase from this site:

http://www.mla.org/style_faq1

MLA Handbook - http://www.mla.org/store/CID24/PID363

MLA Style Manual - http://www.mla.org/store/CID29/PID341

I'm sure that they're also available from Amazon, but I didn't happen to check since it's past my bedtime! :)

Edited February 15, 2011 by junepep
added MLA links

[Colleen in NS]

The MLA style clearly indicates that a 4+ line quote (ie a long quote) should be always be indented without quotation marks and placed as a stand-alone paragraph. Therefore any text following it would be a separate paragraph.

 

Examples (only the first provides a full contextual example):

http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resdoc5e/pdf/MLA/Hacker-Orlov-MLA-Quote.pdf

http://www.write.armstrong.edu/handouts/MLAquotes.pdf

http://www.up.edu/lrc/writing/default.aspx?cid=3673&pid=239

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/03/

 

I checked my MLA book (as well the updated versions that I was able to access online above) and as far as I can tell the standard has not changed to include text as if it were part of the indented paragraph of the long quote.

 

c) support quote in the paragraph immediately following the long quote. Typically the paragraph under the quote is indented without a compelling reason not to. Stylistically, you can get away without doing so.

 

I looked at all those examples you provided, as well as the purdue one that 8FillTheHeart provided on her high school MCT thread, and none of them actually say that you MUST begin a new paragraph after the long quotes. They only say and demonstrate that the long quote itself must be made to stand out, wherever it is placed. And it looks to me, from the examples, that they can either stand out *within* a paragraph, or at the end of a paragraph.

 

Again, I think the problem 8FillTheHeart was pointing out is that all the examples in MCT show the long quotes at the supposed end of paragraphs, when sometimes the following supposed new paragraphs (as indicated by indentations after the long quote) actually would have made more sense if they were included in the quote-including paragraph, because the quote was supporting the singular argument the supposed new paragraph and quote-including paragraph were making.

[8filltheheart]

*delurks* Now I'm thoroughly confused.

 

The MLA style clearly indicates that a 4+ line quote (ie a long quote) should be always be indented without quotation marks and placed as a stand-alone paragraph. Therefore any text following it would be a separate paragraph.

 

Examples (only the first provides a full contextual example):

http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resdoc5e/pdf/MLA/Hacker-Orlov-MLA-Quote.pdf

http://www.write.armstrong.edu/handouts/MLAquotes.pdf

http://www.up.edu/lrc/writing/default.aspx?cid=3673&pid=239

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/03/

 

I checked my MLA book (as well the updated versions that I was able to access online above) and as far as I can tell the standard has not changed to include text as if it were part of the indented paragraph of the long quote. Am I completely misunderstanding the problem?

 

For example to incorporate a long quote:

a) say a few words about your quote (ie introduce it)

b) long quote indented + abbreviated citation.

c) support quote in the paragraph immediately following the long quote. Typically the paragraph under the quote is indented without a compelling reason not to. Stylistically, you can get away without doing so.

 

Although the example from MCT uses far too many long quotes in the example paper provided - and I would expect deductions for that - the quotes in and of themselves are correctly cited per MLA standards.

 

The reason why long quotes are discouraged is because they break up the line of thought within a paper and remove the reader from the immediacy of what's being written, creating a sense of discontinuity for the reader. Just as the people who have read the example have stated, it seems like a poorly written paper because of the long quotes. Any paper that has an abundance of long quotes is certainly going to read poorly --- it's just not done if you want an A or even a B ;) LOL.

 

However, in all seriousness, as an example text providing students with samples to correctly cite long quotes in MLA format, the MCT text provided appears accurate. . .

 

:confused: What on earth am I missing?

 

EDITED TO ADD:

PS - the actual MLA handbooks are available for purchase from this site:

http://www.mla.org/style_faq1

MLA Handbook - http://www.mla.org/store/CID24/PID363

MLA Style Manual - http://www.mla.org/store/CID29/PID341

I'm sure that they're also available from Amazon, but I didn't happen to check since it's past my bedtime! :)

 

I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of the indent for the long quote. They are not indented in order to form their own paragraph. The indent is to alert the reader to the fact that it is a quotation and not the writer's own words.

 

FWIW, I recognize the paper in your first link b/c it comes from the MLA book I referenced earlier, A Writer's Reference by Diana Hacker. In the actual handbook (pg 409 copyright 2009) the word Lane is not indented. I am not sure why it is in the online sample. Here is a link to another paper of hers where it is formatted in the same way as in the book: http://dianahacker.com/pdfs/Hacker-Lars-MLA.pdf

 

From the book, she states: Readers should not have to guess why a quotation appears in your paper. If you use another writer's words, you must explain how they contribute to your point. It's a good idea to embed a quotation--especially a long one--between sentences of your own. (Hacker 368)

 

The bolded quotation is what I am teaching my children.

 

Also, MCT is also agreeing with the fact that if they are w/in the same paragraph you do not indent. In his reply that I posted in the other thread, he states: For me, it is only a question of whether or not the following paragraph is a new one. If the quotation occurs in the middle of a paragraph, then I do not indent after the quotation when I write. If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. I do not remember writing about that in the text, but it is what I do in my own writing. In other words, the presence or absence of a quotation does nothing to alter the standard treatment of a paragraph. I am certain that there is no rule that requires you not to indent because you are following a quotation. Thanks for asking about that.

 

Also, your acknowledgment of the over use of long quotes is valid. It is another of my concerns but tried to focus on my larger one.

Edited February 15, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Tiramisu]

I have the MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers. I found the 3rd edition and I think I have a later edition somewhere. This is what we were recommended to use when I was in school, regardless of what type paper we were writing.

 

Everything I looked at is consistent with what 8 and Colleen are sharing. Nothing is said about starting a new paragraph after a quote.

 

For the fun of it, I looked Turabian's A Manual for Writers which is based on The Chicago Manual of Style and there is an example which shows a continuation of a paragraph (no new paragraph) after a longer (4 lines +), or "block," quotation.