I am thinking about visiting

[Aubrey]

a Greek Orthodox church tomorrow.

 

Possibly w/ the kids & no dh. What do I need to know?

 

There's "Divine Liturgy" at 10. I've been to a Roman Catholic mass before--not enough times to know what's coming, but enough to know that it's different from Protestant & kind-of what to look for. I get that the liturgy is the main "service."

 

There's also "Orthros" at 9. If I go w/out dh, I doubt I'll get everybody up & out the door for something brand new that early. If I do--I assume this is the equivalent of Sunday School?

 

Anything taboo? Anything important to know? Any courage to offer me?

 

I think I've already talked myself out of it, actually. :blink: I have a perfectly good Aubrey-hole here; no reason to leave it.

 

(Hahahaha--I just realized there really are Aubrey-holes. Unfortunately--& ironically--they're for dead people.) :001_huh:

[zaichiki]

I've been to a Russian Orthodox church. Assuming the two are similar, I'll share what I learned.

 

1. Women must not wear pants and must have their hair covered.

2. There were no chairs, so small kids need to be warned ahead of time that they'll be standing the whole time.

3. There are benches around the interior perimeter (for the elderly). If, like me, you were discretely perched on the edge of one of said benches at the back of the church quietly nursing a previously screaming infant, you should know that the people/priest DO move around and may soon be gathered around you. (The priest was incensing the icons and moving around the room. I realized this too late and was soon nursing right next to the priest with the entire congregation gathered around me. :svengo:)

 

It was beautiful! Go, if you can!

 

ETA: I believe only baptized Orthodox can receive Holy Communion.

[justamouse]

there's a social group-Exploring Orthodoxy that mommaduck has set up.

 

I think there's a huge and vast difference between Russian Orthodox and EO as far as cultural practices go.

 

I'm the only one that hasn't been able to visit -life circumstances-not lack of desire.

Edited February 13, 2011 by justamouse

[Caitilin]

Orthros is Matins, so another, preceding service before the DL. You don't ned to worry about being there for it, but do realize that likely there will be no break between the one and the other. :) also, there may be variation in dress code--at the one I attended, there were women in pants and skirts, heads covered, and uncovered, and people arriving THE WHOLE TIME! There will definitely be a different feel to it, both liturgically and, for lack of a better word, culturally--not just Greek, Russian, whatever, but the culture of Orthodoxy, and how the congregation interacts with the liturgy and each other.:DI hope you have a lovely morning visit!

[Aubrey]

I've been to a Russian Orthodox church. Assuming the two are similar, I'll share what I learned.

 

1. Women must not wear pants and must have their hair covered.

I wondered about this. I have no problem covering my hair, but at present, all of my skirts are knee-length. I can't imagine they'd like that, if they don't like pants? I do have one dress, actually, that comes down just below my knees--could I wear that w/pants underneath? :tongue_smilie:

 

2. There were no chairs, so small kids need to be warned ahead of time that they'll be standing the whole time.

Do you keep *all* your kids w/ you? I don't think I could stand by myself w/ 4dc the ages mine are, quietly, for, um, very long.

 

3. There are benches around the interior perimeter (for the elderly). If, like me, you were discretely perched on the edge of one of said benches at the back of the church quietly nursing a previously screaming infant, you should know that the people/priest DO move around and may soon be gathered around you. (The priest was incensing the icons and moving around the room. I realized this too late and was soon nursing right next to the priest with the entire congregation gathered around me. :svengo:)

 

It was beautiful! Go, if you can!

 

ETA: I believe only baptized Orthodox can receive Holy Communion.

 

Luckily, I will not be nursing. You're scaring me, though.

[ondreeuh]

My parents attend an Orthodox church, and they are not picky about visitors wearing a mantilla (head scarf). I'd bring something you're comfortable wearing just in case it's expected at the church you're attending. I'd probably leave the kids at home at the first visit so you can see what's expected. At my parents' church, there is a cry room in the back for nursing & noisy babies, but most kids stand with their parents or wander with their friends. There is a fair bit of whispering and moving around during the service - it's all very fluid (and very unlike any other church I've been to).

[Aubrey]

If you change your mind, read this: http://www.frederica.com/12-things/

 

Divine Liturgy is the worship service. It includes the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Orthros is the morning prayers otherwise known as Matins. It includes some beautiful hymnography, and the teaching hymns of the week, as well as a reading of the Holy Gospel.

 

When you go, find a friendly looking face, and say, "I'm a visitor. Can you help me know what to do?" Or introduce yourself to someone in a black cassock and say the same thing. If you decide not to go tomorrow, call the church and talk to the priest before you go, and he will likely arrange someone to stand with you and greet you. It helps, your first time in an Orthodox service. The first time I went, I didn't pray much, because it was all new. It took a few times to feel comfortable. That's normal.

 

Please feel free to PM if you have more questions.

 

God go with you on your journey.

 

Thank you for the link. In summary:

 

1. You can't (really) be late (or early).

2. When do you leave, then?

3. Confess to a priest? Wait--I thought that was just the Roman Catholics. Is there an alternative?

4. (What about the kids?)

[zaichiki]

Luckily, I will not be nursing. You're scaring me, though.

 

Oh, I can laugh now! I was mortified at the time. Totally embarrased! I didn't mean to be the "center of attention" and distracting to those who were spending time with God.

 

I'm glad to read Patty Joanna's responses. I didn't know that Russians tend to stand while Greeks sit. That's good to know.

 

The church I visited had LOTS of kids. They were obviously very used to attending, though, as they all stood quietly. Some of the younger ones did go in and out (I later discovered that a nursery was set up downstairs). If I had been better prepared I would not have had that slightly embarrasing situation.

 

Don't be scared.

 

I'm very glad I went (with a 3 y.o. and an infant). I wouldn't hesitate to join such a church either. They were extremely warm and welcoming and child-loving.

Edited February 13, 2011 by zaichiki

[littleWMN]

I've attended one before with children I was babysitting at the time. It's been over ten years. The had pews, but did a lot of sitting and standing at various times and I obviously was not clued in on when to sit/stand/kneel so I just followed everyone else. They had (I'm so sorry I don't know the actual word... I hope no one is offended) a gong-like thing that sounded off at various times. I still do not know what it was for. There were various readings of the scripture, some of it in English, some not. The priest went around the room with incense. I do not remember anyone wearing headscarves, at least not the majority. I was VERY shy at the time and would have felt even more out of place with my head uncovered, if that were the case. I do seem to remember that people were there before me and there wasn't an obvious beginning and end to the service. It seemed much longer than what I was used to. Hope this helps!

[Aubrey]

Don't be scared.

 

Your knee-length skirts will be fine. Thank you. I wore longer skirts before children. Now? When I wear them, it looks like I'm having more children. :001_huh:

 

These are all practices which vary by parish and jurisdiction. If you wear a skirt, you will be OK. You are NOT ORTHODOX and need not adhere to any parish practices. You are a visitor, and of course, you want to be comfortable, so you are smart to think ahead. But you are not under any obligation.

 

We are children in our Father's house, not Christians On Parade. if anyone is judging you, they've got bigger issues to deal with, like repentance, than you do by wearing the wrong thing. That's a fact. If that's really the general attitude, it sounds lovely.

 

Parishes also differ as related to how the children will do. Our parish, we have had to move to Zone Defense, there are so many kids running around. Our choir directors are FREQUENTLY directing with a child in arms, and half the choir is bearing a child as well, not their own most of the time. We are an ultra-friendly parish. Kids can sit on the floor, in a pew, read a book, play with a toy. If they need to use the restroom, guess what? They do. If you have to go in and out with them, no bigs. I LOVE the idea of kid-friendly. I went to a church a couple of years ago in which they would not allow me to bring my newborn into the service. We'd already dropped the big kids at Sunday School, so we sat out in the corridor & sort-of watched the service on the closed-circuit tv. And never went back.

 

I don't know what Zone Defense is.

 

They *let* you *lead* WITH kids??? Oh my gosh, I think I'd faint. That sounds so...Christ-like. Beautiful. Wow.

 

What scares you? I'm serious. I was scared too. But it is different things for different people.

 

PM me if you want.

 

I'm sorry--I can pm you if you prefer. I like talking on threads, too--if that's ok?

 

What scares me?

Offending someone.

Being in public at all, lol, but that's me, not the church.

Talking too fast & saying the wrong thing because I'm nervous.

My kids saying the wrong thing.

Having a 2yo & a 3yo w/ me the whole time w/out dh. (Who may be working, fwiw.)

Wearing a skirt, lol.

Trying to learn about Orthodoxy on top of everything else right now.

Not learning about Orthodoxy but visiting anyway.

Priests

 

But there's a lot that excites me, too. I looked this church up before we moved here, so I've known for a while that there's one close to us, & it's been in the back of my mind. I'm thinking about going tomorrow because dh might be working. He'd go w/ me if I asked him to, & if I want to go back, he'll definitely go w/ me. I just...don't want to drag him there if I don't need to. If that makes sense.

 

In general, I like to stay home on Sunday mornings. But don't tell anyone I said so. I like to view "worship" as something much broader than...it is sometimes seen. I like to attempt the act of worship in places other than just...big buildings.

 

I guess...I know I won't fit in, but...as long as I don't go, I can hope I would. :001_huh:

[catalinakel]

The kids and I visited an Orthodox church my ex husband has decided to join a few times. Besides what everyone else has said, I would not go if you have any respiratory issues. This particular building had no circulation and the incense was strong and suffocating.

[milovany]

I like to view "worship" as something much broader than...it is sometimes seen. I like to attempt the act of worship in places other than just...big buildings.

 

Then you might love the Divine Liturgy. We believe the the service takes place in the heavenly realm -- that's fairly broad, no? ;)

 

 

I guess...I know I won't fit in, but...as long as I don't go, I can hope I would. :001_huh:

 

You will fit Aubrey -- it's the Church afterall. Everyone who wants to be there fits in.

 

The children can sit down on the floor, and if there are chairs around the edges (there likely will be), so can you. Like Patty Joanna said, you are a visitor. You don't have to do everything the Orthodox do. In our parish, lots of people take turns utilizing the chairs as they learn to stand for the services. I still do. There might be some baskets in the back or on the sides with books for the kids to thumb through. Your children might be enthralled with the candles, the priests, the activity, the incense, the icons.

 

I think it will be fine .... take a deep breath .....

Edited February 13, 2011 by milovaný

[JenniferB]

If you go, let us know what you think. We are inquirers. We take our first class next Sunday. I'm so excited.

 

At my first Divine Liturgy I went without the kids. That was nice because I could really soak up and enjoy everything that was going on without worrying about the kids. The second time the kids came also with DH. It was a little long for the kids, so we left during the distribution of the Eucharist, and we came back in at the end to receive a blessing from the priest. You can come and go as you please; many people are in and out at all times.

[Aubrey]

3. Confess to a priest?

No. You confess to Christ in the presence of a priest. In the early church, confession was in front of the whole PARISH, but as a mercy, now the priest represents the parish. Confession is private with the priest. One thing to think about: how can you confess (think about the meaning of that word) sins if not to a human? GOD already knows!! And I have to say, knowing that one is going to have to confess something is a pretty good preventative. :0)

 

Is there an alternative?

Not really. But you are a long way from having to worry about it. It is a sacrament for Orthodox Christians in the Orthodox Church.

 

I have no experience with or issue with confession. BUT I have a male-female issue. I realize that's a potential future issue, but if there's no (female) way around it, I'm thinking it's better to know now. I can decide if it's too much of an issue & stop the pursuit of this line of inquiry, or I can figure out how to accept that & visit. But if there's a problem I *know* I can't get around, why go?

 

The smoke concerns me. If I went w/out dh, it would only be this once, & he's very asthmatic. I don't think "going light" on it would work for him.

 

Thank you for all your insights, thoughts, comforts, encouragements. There is so much that I love about Orthodoxy. If that's as far as it goes, please know at least that your faith inspires mine. :001_smile:

[lmkzbcb]

I can't believe this. I have been looking into the OC for several months now. I am so excited to see that other people are doing the same and there is another thread where others are talking about this? Is that right? Or another forum?

 

If you get this in time, I found this article from an OC church to be very helpful on what to do or not do at the service. Most particularly, it was interesting to see the request that women not wear lipstick. When you read the article you will see why and it makes total sense.

I must say, one time, I went to receive the Eucharist at an Anglican church, I had to close my eyes and focus on Christ when the cup approached me with big fat red lipstick all over the spot where I was about to drink from. So gross!

 

Anyways, here's the etiquette article:

http://www.steliasofatlanta.org/images/stories/ChurchEtiquetteBooklet.pdf

 

Also, here are some links of websites that I have found to be extremely helpful as far as investigating the OC.

 

"Partial Resolution of Protestant Difficulties with Orthodox Theology"

http://www.orthodox.net/faq/protobje.htm?airmail

 

Differences between RC and OC

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

 

Online Orthodox Catechisms

http://aggreen.net/catechism/catechism.html

 

Orthodox Christian Information Center

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/

 

HTH,

 

Oh and someone please tell me everything you know about the OC!! LOL

Edited February 14, 2011 by lmkzbcb

[milovany]

Oh and someone please tell me everything you know about the OC!! LOL

 

Hi Christine, our family converted to the EO church about a year ago -- I had been protestant for 23 or so years before looking into Orthodoxy. It's been a pretty intense, amazing thing.

 

I wanted to let you know that there's a sub-group here on this board (click here) called Exploring Orthodox Christianity. It's somewhat active right now, and we'd love to have you come join us. These sub-groups, called Social Groups, are just that -- small groups where a specific topic/area of interest can be discussed by those who are interested. You can access them from any page by clicking at the top where it says Control Panel, and then clicking Social Group on the left-side navigation bar.

Edited February 13, 2011 by milovaný

[Little Nyssa]

Hi, since you are going to a Greek church, there are most likely to be pews.

 

Don't worry about how to behave or try to follow each & every word in the liturgy book. Just let the Liturgy flow over you-- you can only absorb so much the first time you go.

 

I really encourage you to visit the Exploring Orthodoxy social group here on WTM-- you will find many searchers like yourself, their descriptions of their first visits, and what they thought about it.

 

But-- take it slow, you don't have to learn all about EO all at once!

Edited February 13, 2011 by Little Nyssa

[milovany]

 

Online Orthodox Catechisms

http://aggreen.net/catechism/catechism.html

 

 

 

Does this crack you up that there's a *page* of links to different catechisms? We don't have one catechism book/resource that one can point to as "the Orthodox catechism". Orthodoxy, it has been joked, certainly can't be called "organized religion!" :D

 

While it's great to do some reading about Orthodoxy, and I did a TON before we ever went to a service, I can say now (from the other side of baptism) that the best catechism for an inquirer in reality is to go to church. Goodness, it's the best catechism for an Orthodox person, too. It really is a living faith that can't be learned from text -- it is learned from taking part, from praying the prayers with the Church, from talking to a priest, from loving the people in the church, etc. Hope you enjoy your visit when you can go!

Edited February 13, 2011 by milovaný

[milovany]

I really encourage you to visit the Exploring Orthodoxy social group here on WTM-- you will find many searchers like yourself, their descriptions of their first visits, and what they thought about it.

 

Some favorable, some not! Some gung-ho, some more wary. Everyone's experience and thoughts are different. It's been so refreshing to have the open, honest discussions we've been having.

Edited February 13, 2011 by milovaný

[Chris in VA]

Aubrey, I was just wondering--have you ever been to any liturgical church?

Just curious.

 

And thinking of you this am--pls tell us if you went to the EO!

[Melinda in VT]

I'm curious to hear if you go and how you like it.

 

I've recently learned that there is an Orthodox church near-ish to me, and I'm hoping to visit in May, after mud season. (There's a steep, unpaved mountain road between it and me, and I'm a wimp when it comes to driving.)

 

I have some issues that I think would make it tough for me to fit into Orthodoxy, but I love liturgical worship and I've been intrigued by some of the comments shared by Orthodox members in the various threads on religion over the last year or so, so I thought I'd go and experience it for myself.

[Aubrey]

I've been poking around the social group.

 

Dh ended up not working, & for several reasons--partly asthma--I didn't ask him to go.

 

Which ended up being moot anyway--the van is dead. :lol:

[lmkzbcb]

Aubrey -

I forgot to mention that if you are more comfortable with a Western Rite service (this would be more like an Anglican/Episcopal or Roman Catholic Service), the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America has Western Rite services at about 20 different locations. Maybe one will be near you.

 

Here is a link for it. http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite

 

Here is a blurb from the website about it.

 

The Western Rite is a ministry of the Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America, and in full canonical communion and unity of purpose with the several Orthodox jurisdictions of the Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA). There are about twenty Western Rite congregations around the country who worship God in the forms which speak to their hearts, rejoicing to be part of the Universal Church.

 

I am learning just like many of you, and I could be wrong but I think the websites I am giving are (for lack of a better term) mainstream Orthodox. If anyone knows differently, do please tell me which ones are not orthodox Orthodox (ha, not that was funny). Anyways, you know what I am mean.

 

My situation prevents me from going to the OC. At this point, all I can do is research on the net, talk via internet, and read books.

[milovany]

 

My situation prevents me from going to the OC. At this point, all I can do is research on the net, talk via internet, and read books.

 

You could also pray! There are several good Orthodox prayer books available. The Antiochian website has their little red prayer book on the Liturgical Resources page (all the prayers from the book are available on that page).

[simka2]

At the Greek Orthodox church we are attending jeans are perfectly acceptable!!! ;)

 

Also, I recieved some very good answers to some lingering questions I had, I will try to write them out on the Exploring Orthodoxy group later this evening.

[Parrothead]

Differences between RC and OC

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

 

 

This one is not totally accurate and his use of "papist" to speak about Catholics is highly offensive. I don't know that recommending this particular reading to anyone is a good idea.

[milovany]

This one is not totally accurate and his use of "papist" to speak about Catholics is highly offensive. I don't know that recommending this particular reading to anyone is a good idea.

 

Because of the above concerns, this is the one I usually recommend to those that ask me. It is from the Orthodox perspective, but without any polemic language.

[Parrothead]

Because of the above concerns, this is the one I usually recommend to those that ask me. It is from the Orthodox perspective, but without any polemic language.

Thanks.

 

P.S. I like you siggy smilie.

[milovany]

 

P.S. I like you siggy smilie.

 

Isn't that fun? I saw that on an Orthodox discussion board. It's me saying "O, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me!" which I find I need to say. A lot.

[Parrothead]

Isn't that fun? I saw that on an Orthodox discussion board. It's me saying "O, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me!" which I find I need to say. A lot.

LOL! My many times a day prayer is similar, "Oh, please Jesus have patience with me."

 

I do have this little guy in my computer.

[lmkzbcb]

Okay, this will tell you how naive I am. I had no idea that the word papist was insulting!! LOL

I thought, yeah, that makes sense. Pope - papist. ROTFL!!

Oh boy, I have a long way to go.

 

Oh and what part of the article was not accurate? (The one on RC and OC) Did it err on the RC side or OC side?

Edited February 13, 2011 by lmkzbcb

[Parrothead]

Okay, this will tell you how naive I am. I had no idea that the word papist was insulting!! LOL

I thought, yeah, that makes sense. Pope - papist. ROTFL!!

Oh boy, I have a long way to go.

 

Oh and what part of the article was not accurate? (The one on RC and OC) Did it err on the RC side or OC side?

It is about as offensive as the N-word is to people of African descent. ;)

Edited February 13, 2011 by Parrothead

[lmkzbcb]

Yeah, after you said that it was offensive, I googled it. I was appalled.

 

Well, there is nothing like making an idiot of yourself to help you along in learning/obtaining humility! ROTFL!!

[Little Nyssa]

I wouldn't have known either... and I grew up Catholic.

[Parrothead]

Yeah, after you said that it was offensive, I googled it. I was appalled.

 

Well, there is nothing like making an idiot of yourself to help you along in learning/obtaining humility! ROTFL!!

Hey, it is a learning process. It isn't like you said it to someone or said it as a slur. ;)

 

That it came from a man who should have known better was shocking and telling. :glare: I'd take everything in that particular paper with a grain of salt. There were subtle inaccuracies.

[Parrothead]

I wouldn't have known either... and I grew up Catholic.

It isn't used much anymore by the general populace.

 

I mostly see it in old writings or historical fiction.

[Aubrey]

Yeah, after you said that it was offensive, I googled it. I was appalled.

 

Well, there is nothing like making an idiot of yourself to help you along in learning/obtaining humility! ROTFL!!

 

I googled it, too, & although everything I saw said it was a slur, nothing said why. I guess knowing it's a slur is enough, but I wish I knew what you found that was "appalling."

 

And I don't think I understand ROTFL--I thought it meant "rolling on the floor laughing." :confused:

[lmkzbcb]

Aubrey,

I was appalled that someone within the clergy would use the word probably knowing it was a slur. I didn't read why it was a slur either, but it was enough for me to know that is why it is used, as an insult.

 

About ROTFL, you are right. I was laughing at myself for trying to be helpful and then passing along an offensive article. And that it was kinda embarrassing and helped me with humility today.