Learning to read a foreign language enough?

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Can learning to read books in Latin be enough to cover the requirement in a foreign language? I am not talking children's books like Dr. Seuss, but more meatier pieces like Dickens.

 

My oldest took two years of French for HS using Rossetta Stone. Passed the tests but he cannot speak the language at all and does not remember much of the vocabulary. I remember trying to focus on his actual speaking skills and not learning the written language. Now several years later I am facing a new student and a new language, Latin. This weekend I spent time looking at different curriculums and the high prices on them due to the CDs and DVDs included with the programs. I got to thinking, when I was in HS, I took 3 yrs French and cannot speak the language beyond a few phrases. However, I learned to read French very well. By the end of HS I was able to read books and magazines in French and even today my knowledge of the french language helps me decipher words. Because I never heard French spoken outside the classroom, I never held onto the spoken language. But reading it, that kept it in my head. Can I have my son learn Latin this way? Learn to read it but not actually speak it. He will learn pronunciation and be required to say his vocabulary words and have a knowledge of what it sounds like. But to be required to actually speak the language beyond that...is it necessary for the credit?

[regentrude]

Latin would be the only language where I'd think it would be OK to just read it - because you just don't talk in Latin to anybody these days.

OTOH, for a modern foreign language I would expect the student to be able to speak and have good listening comprehension; I don't consider reading skills as proficiency in a living language.

[Yolanda in Mass]

:iagree:Reading a foreign language is the easiest skill to acquire, then understanding the spoken language, then speaking and writing. If you can't do that in a modern language, no way, no how can you claim proficiency. Latin, as the previous poster said, is a whole different matter since it's not spoken.

 

Yolanda

 

FWIW - Many foreign language teachers can't do this either!

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

So how can a child acquire the proficiency needed in a modern language? If they are not immersed in the language how can they fully learn it? I, nor my husband, speak a language other then our mother tongue. I can listen to my child recite his French, Spanish or whatever language they are learning, but unless I personally know the language beyond the teachers guide, how do I correct or converse? Sure they might know phrases and sentences learned, but to create and spontaneously converse in this new language....can two years really do this? What is expected from a 2 yr course in foreign language at the HS level?

 

I am not trying to argue the comments given, but truly want to know...how do I have my child achieve this? Money is an issue, so hiring a language tutor is not a possibility.

[regentrude]

So how can a child acquire the proficiency needed in a modern language? If they are not immersed in the language how can they fully learn it?

 

 

The only way to achieve proficiency in a spoken language is to speak it with people who know it.

One first step is to give the student plenty of opportunities to hear it spoken. This is easily accomplished in a homeschool using online programs, newcasts, audiobooks, and films - there are many free resources available.

The second, and much harder, step is to find a conversation partner. You may find a native speaker in the neighborhood, a foreign student, a language group. In a pinch, a non-native speaker who is somewhat proficient will be better than nothing. But without the opportunity for conversation, a student will not learn to spontaneously speak.

 

(For me, this is the hardest part of homeschooling. DD is studying French, and we have a French native who comes an talks with us once a week.)

 

 

....can two years really do this? What is expected from a 2 yr course in foreign language at the HS level?

 

No, two years of a foreign language are nowhere near enough for anything resembling proficiency. Even four years is inadequate; for proficiency, I would say 8-10 years are necessary. Which means that starting in high school as commonly done in the US is too late. I don't know what is expected from a two year course- to me that is too short a time to make any sense.

(In my home country, foreign language instruction begins with the first language in 3rd grade which allows for ten years of instruction; the second foreign language is added in 6th grade, and a third language somewhere during the high school years.)

 

Btw, the common practice of having language teachers in schools here who themselves are not proficient in the language they teach never ceases to amaze me.

[elegantlion]

You might check out livemocha.com. I haven't used it but it is a free language program and you can native speakers assist your learning. Again I haven't delved it very much, but it's worth checking out.

[eumyang]

No, two years of a foreign language are nowhere near enough for anything resembling proficiency. Even four years is inadequate; for proficiency, I would say 8-10 years are necessary.

The amount of time would depend on the language. In the 1970s, the Foreign Service Institute established a scale of "Expected Levels of Absolute Speaking Proficiency in Languages." The languages taught at FSI were divided into four groups, based on the achievement level a student may expect after a certain period of study. If an adult studied for 30 hours a week (yikes!), he/she could reach an "advanced" level of proficiency in 24 weeks (720 hours) if he/she was studying French (a Group I language). However, it would take anywhere from 80-92 weeks (2400-2760 hours) to reach "advanced" proficiency in Chinese (a Group IV language).

(See http://www.asdk12.org/depts/world_lang/advocacy/ForeignServiceInst.pdf.)

 

Which means that starting in high school as commonly done in the US is too late. I don't know what is expected from a two year course- to me that is too short a time to make any sense.

Is it really common to start in HS? I myself started in the 7th grade, and it was pretty much required for all students in the middle school I attended (except for the special needs students). If I had picked the right language, I could have reached level 6 by 12 grade. (I say "the right language," because the language I really wanted to take, German, was not offered in middle school. So I took 2 years of Russian in middle school and 4 years of German in high school. But French and Spanish were offered in both schools, so if I had picked either one of those, I could have reached level 6 by 12th grade.)

 

My oldest took two years of French for HS using Rossetta Stone. Passed the tests but he cannot speak the language at all and does not remember much of the vocabulary.

I can sympathize, although I am considerably older. :glare: I am convinced that I have some sort of language handicap -- being a child of Korean immigrants, I did not learn to speak until I was four, and even then, it was broken English. I spent all of elementary school in Speech Therapy. My parents were told by my 1st grade teacher not to speak Korean to me until my English got better, a huge mistake.

 

I didn't start studying Korean formally until 4 years ago, when I went to Korea for a summer and took an intensive language course at a Korean university. I did this for three straight summers (4 hours a day, 5 days a week, for a 10 week term), and still, my speaking ability isn't much to write home about. Among the four language skills (reading, writing, listening, speaking), I would say that I am best at writing.

 

I second the suggestion for the student to get plenty of opportunities to hear the language spoken. I'm planning on going back to Korea this summer (for a fourth time!) to continue my language studies, and I've found a website where I can download podcasts in Korean to listen to, as preparation. I've also, uhm, acquired (:tongue_smilie:) Korean movies and TV dramas to watch (with English subtitles, of course).

 

 

69

[regentrude]

Is it really common to start in HS? I myself started in the 7th grade, and it was pretty much required for all students in the middle school I attended (except for the special needs students).

 

My kids went to ps till 5th/6th grade. In our school district, foreign languages start in 9th. There are none offered before.

[Amy in TX]

Is it really common to start in HS? I myself started in the 7th grade, and it was pretty much required for all students in the middle school I attended (except for the special needs students). If I had picked the right language, I could have reached level 6 by 12 grade. (I say "the right language," because the language I really wanted to take, German, was not offered in middle school. So I took 2 years of Russian in middle school and 4 years of German in high school. But French and Spanish were offered in both schools, so if I had picked either one of those, I could have reached level 6 by 12th grade.)

 

69

 

In my middle school (in Pennsylvania 30 years ago!), Spanish was required in 7th grade, and French in 8th. Then you could take your choice in high school (I took 4 years of German). So the only way to do more than four consecutive years of one language was to do French, and get five.

 

In the public schools where I live now (Houston), I *think* there are no foreign languages offered before 9th grade.

 

So my impression has always been that serious language study in the US is *generally* limited to high school.

[Rosie_0801]

No, two years of a foreign language are nowhere near enough for anything resembling proficiency.

 

Two years of serious study in a sign language would get you as fluent as you're likely to ever get as a hearing person. But again, dvds will only take you so far, and then you need accurate, fluent signers. They are not so easy to find either. Not that a native sign language is a foreign language, and it may or may not count as one when applying to colleges.

 

Rosie

Edited February 8, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[choirfarm]

Well, for me.. I had them do SOS to get the basics down of Spanish. Then I am having them do duel credit at the local CC. That way they only have to really concentrate on the speaking. The grammar should be a review at least the first year. Now my CC only costs 150 for that class, and he will finish with transferable credit. So that will help. I did this for the reasons you state. I felt exactly the same way.

 

Christine

 

So how can a child acquire the proficiency needed in a modern language? If they are not immersed in the language how can they fully learn it? I, nor my husband, speak a language other then our mother tongue. I can listen to my child recite his French, Spanish or whatever language they are learning, but unless I personally know the language beyond the teachers guide, how do I correct or converse? Sure they might know phrases and sentences learned, but to create and spontaneously converse in this new language....can two years really do this? What is expected from a 2 yr course in foreign language at the HS level?

 

I am not trying to argue the comments given, but truly want to know...how do I have my child achieve this? Money is an issue, so hiring a language tutor is not a possibility.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Thanks all. I had planned for my youngest (1st ) to begin a language next year so I am not exactly worried about her becoming fluent in a language although even with online sites to help her hear the language, I am not sure if that will be enough. But for my ds who will be just starting in 9th, his best option will be Latin so he does not have to learn to speak it fluently.

 

In all honesty, is it even possible to get a successful foreign language program in the home? I am beginning to feel that this is one subject homeschools cannot fully teach.

[Amy in TX]

In all honesty, is it even possible to get a successful foreign language program in the home? I am beginning to feel that this is one subject homeschools cannot fully teach.

 

I agree with you. What I've finally settled on doing is starting early, in grade school, going as slow or as fast as we can manage, with whatever tools we have, to get as much of a "base" as we can, until they are old enough to take the language or languages at CC. This way, they will get many years of study, but they will also have, eventually, fluent teachers.

[Julie in MN]

until they are old enough to take the language or languages at CC. This way, they will get many years of study, but they will also have, eventually, fluent teachers.

I don't want to disappoint you, but fluency is unlikely just because you take a course from a CC, a college, or a high school teacher. As the OP mentioned, many years in a classroom does not a fluent speaker make. And as someone else mentioned, fluency is going to require actually interacting with folks in the language (such as a full immersion school), or in my experience it could happen when there is a simple passion to speak and understand speech in the language (our exchange student had a passion for American movies), but it doesn't come from books or from fluent teachers, IMHO.

 

Julie

[Amy in TX]

I don't want to disappoint you, but fluency is unlikely just because you take a course from a CC, a college, or a high school teacher.

Julie

 

Don't rain on my parade Julie! :D

 

My hope is that a CC teacher will at least be better at the language (whichever it may be) than I am. Paid tutors are not an option for us, and dual enrollment at CC in Texas is free. So this is my best option, I think.

[Yolanda in Mass]

Btw, the common practice of having language teachers in schools here who themselves are not proficient in the language they teach never ceases to amaze me.

 

The reason they don't is that you don't have to be proficient or even fluent to be certified. You need a BA in the language and the teacher training to get certified. You can get a BA in a foreign language and NOT be fluent. Crazy, huh? I can't tell you how many Spanish teachers I have met that cringe when I tell them I'm fluent. They, without fail, apologize that their Spanish isn't that good so please don't speak to them in Spanish!

[regentrude]

. You can get a BA in a foreign language and NOT be fluent. Crazy, huh?

 

Yes, that is truly crazy.

[Joan in GE]

In all honesty, is it even possible to get a successful foreign language program in the home? I am beginning to feel that this is one subject homeschools cannot fully teach.

 

My children are learning German even though I cannot speak the language. It is clear that you can't "teach" something you don't know, but you can find materials that "teach" for you. So the question is how much you have to spend, how much time they have (as in years), your environment (native speakers available locally to do exchanges with), how resourceful you are at finding learning experiences, etc. A friend who wants her children to learn English might be exchanging with me for French teaching. From time to time there are people on the WTM coming from a foreign country who want their children to learn English as they are teaching in another language.

 

Mine started with Rosetta Stone as prep, then moved on to OSU German (which is $250 for a level - not bad at all considering that you get a weekly phone session). I know OSU has Spanish, but don't know if it is the same style.

 

If you search the Bilingual Boards for the language you are interested in pursuing, you might find some helpful resources.

 

Here is a good thread on fluency.

 

Joan

Edited February 14, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Lolly]

Thanks all. I had planned for my youngest (1st ) to begin a language next year so I am not exactly worried about her becoming fluent in a language although even with online sites to help her hear the language, I am not sure if that will be enough. But for my ds who will be just starting in 9th, his best option will be Latin so he does not have to learn to speak it fluently.

 

In all honesty, is it even possible to get a successful foreign language program in the home? I am beginning to feel that this is one subject homeschools cannot fully teach.

 

I do not believe it is possible to successfully have students in a home environment that is not already bilingual (which would mean that it is not truly a foreign language in that home) to become proficient in a foreign language. I also do not believe it is possible to achieve in a schoolroom in one hour a day. Not even over 10 years of study.

[regentrude]

I do not believe it is possible to successfully have students in a home environment that is not already bilingual (which would mean that it is not truly a foreign language in that home) to become proficient in a foreign language. I also do not believe it is possible to achieve in a schoolroom in one hour a day. Not even over 10 years of study.

 

What do you consider proficient?

 

To me, if I can read books (from poetry to math texts) in that language, talk fluently to people, move to a country where that language is spoken and work a job there that requires me to talk in the language and use it in daily life, that's pretty close to proficient.

 

I did learn my English in school.

 

And, I should add: none of my teachers ever had a chance to visit an English speaking country (no international travel allowed in communist East Germany), nor did we have access to native speakers, CDs, videos, etc. If I could learn English this well, one can definitely learn a foreign language in a home school with access to all those technologies that we did not have.

Edited February 14, 2011 by regentrude

[Lolly]

What do you consider proficient?

 

To me, if I can read books (from poetry to math texts) in that language, talk fluently to people, move to a country where that language is spoken and work a job there that requires me to talk in the language and use it in daily life, that's pretty close to proficient.

 

I did learn my English in school.

 

And, I should add: none of my teachers ever had a chance to visit an English speaking country (no international travel allowed in communist East Germany), nor did we have access to native speakers, CDs, videos, etc. If I could learn English this well, one can definitely learn a foreign language in a home school with access to all those technologies that we did not have.

 

I have never personally known anyone who has been able to achieve what you have done. Everyone I know who is proficient to your degree had access to native speakers and a chance to "live" the language. Were you truly able to converse at a normal/proficient level when you first attempted to speak with native speakers? Did they understand you with no problem? Could you fully understand them? Honestly, it boggles my mind that this is possible.

[eumyang]

And, I should add: none of my teachers ever had a chance to visit an English speaking country (no international travel allowed in communist East Germany), nor did we have access to native speakers, CDs, videos, etc. If I could learn English this well, one can definitely learn a foreign language in a home school with access to all those technologies that we did not have.

Off topic, but this reminded me of a documentary I watched nearly twenty years ago when I was taking Intermediate German 2 at college. Produced right after reunification, the film highlighted differences between East and West. One was foreign language ability. There was a quick interview with a student in the West, whose English was rather good, with little accent. This followed by an interview with an English teacher in the East, whose English was less proficient and heavily accented.

 

I do not believe it is possible to successfully have students in a home environment that is not already bilingual (which would mean that it is not truly a foreign language in that home) to become proficient in a foreign language. I also do not believe it is possible to achieve in a schoolroom in one hour a day. Not even over 10 years of study.

My home environment was somewhat bilingual, but I still didn't become proficient in Korean. :D As I've mentioned, I had issues with language growing up. I firmly believe that I will never be proficient in Korean because of what I think is my handicap. Defeatist attitude? Perhaps. Although I'm planning a fourth trip to Korea this summer to continue my language studies, I think I've reached a plateau, and that I probably won't be able to speak much better than I can now. (Then why go to Korea at all? I have relatives there, and I had fun staying there, of course. :D)

 

 

69

[regentrude]

I have never personally known anyone who has been able to achieve what you have done. Everyone I know who is proficient to your degree had access to native speakers and a chance to "live" the language. Were you truly able to converse at a normal/proficient level when you first attempted to speak with native speakers? Did they understand you with no problem? Could you fully understand them? Honestly, it boggles my mind that this is possible.

 

When I had my first encounters with native speakers - after 8 years of English in school and two years at the university - I could easily carry a conversation face to face with an individual. I was understood, and I understood them, unless they spoke with an extremely heavy local accent.

What gave me some trouble was following a conversation among a GROUP of Americans, partly because certain cultural references were not clear to me. What was the hardest was watching American films; even after I could read English literature in the original without problems, rapid dialogue in American films were hard to understand at first. (Part of both these problems was that we had been taught British English in school and the American pronounciation was unfamiliar at first)

As a graduate student I went to the US for the first time and spent two months working in a lab. I did not experience any language problems, both work related and in social situations. Of course, vocabulary kept growing. (After grad school I moved to the US for a post doc; during this time my language skills kept improving.)

But the ten years of formal English training in school gave me the tools to be able to live and work in a foreign language environment, understand everything that is necessary and make myself understood. All I have been adding are vocabulary, idioms, and particular phrases, double meanings, cultural context.

All my German fellow scientists have similar stories. (Without English proficiency you could not do science in Europe either - you need to be able to read fluently, give presentations, conduct scientific discussions with colleagues from all over the world)

Edited to add: my husband,also from East Germany, who went through similar education moved to the US after graduate school. That was his first experience in an English speaking country, and he, too, had no problems communicating at work and in everyday situations.

 

Btw, English was my second foreign language. My first was Russian. There we DID have the opportunity to talk to native speakers (we had pen pals and occasionally met Russian school groups), had a native speaker as a teacher in high school and access to more literature. In 12th grade, we were able to read newspapers, Pushkin and Tolstoi in the original and converse about anything from current events to personal life with Russian speakers. (Unfortunately I have not used this language for many years and have lost the ability to speak which is sad)

Edited February 15, 2011 by regentrude

[Joan in GE]

So regentrude, I'm guessing that there was a driving desire on your part to learn English?

 

To me, motivation is one of the main keys to learning a foreign language, which was what I was discussing in the aforementioned thread.

 

Though eumyang, it sounds like you have the desire. Have you ever looked into the Tomatis method to help you get over the ingrained hindrances?

 

Joan

[emubird]

Thanks all. I had planned for my youngest (1st ) to begin a language next year so I am not exactly worried about her becoming fluent in a language although even with online sites to help her hear the language, I am not sure if that will be enough. But for my ds who will be just starting in 9th, his best option will be Latin so he does not have to learn to speak it fluently.

 

In all honesty, is it even possible to get a successful foreign language program in the home? I am beginning to feel that this is one subject homeschools cannot fully teach.

 

If your goal is just to fulfill a language requirement to get into college, I wouldn't worry about fluency. Public schools obviously don't worry about it, so it's not like a homeschool is failing relative to a a public school if the homeschool kids don't become fluent in another language.

 

When public school kids want to learn a language, they don't do it at the local high school around here, even though the local high school offers 6 years of many languages. Instead, they do dual enrollment at a college (or do 6 months as an exchange student). Everyone at the high school knows that you don't learn a language at high school. It's a complete joke and just some credits that kids rack up on their transcript so they fulfill the requirement. These credits count for getting into college, but none of the kids actually learn much of the language beyond a few mispronounced phrases. They don't even learn to read it very well.

 

Back when I was in high school, the schools at least turned out kids who could read, after a fashion, in the foreign language, but that seems not to be the goal anymore, at least around here. It's only about getting credits to get into college.

 

That said, we've had pretty good luck here with using Pimsleur and Destinos for Spanish -- my kids can at least understand a certain amount of spoken Spanish. They can't really speak it, because they never get the opportunity to practice in the back and forth manner that a fluent speaker could help them with.

 

I wouldn't limit your student to Latin just because they wouldn't have to speak it. If there's interest in another language, let them do that one instead. At least you can lay down the basics while at home.

 

However, from our experience with college applications, Latin would have been a fine choice for college admittance. ASL would have worked too. (SOME colleges have rules against ASL or Latin to fulfill the language requirement AT college, but these two languages would still fulfill the entrance requirement at most schools.)

[regentrude]

So regentrude, I'm guessing that there was a driving desire on your part to learn English?

 

To me, motivation is one of the main keys to learning a foreign language, which was what I was discussing in the aforementioned thread.

 

Yes, I was motivated, as were my class mates. We had much more instruction in Russian (I started in 3rd grade, DH in 5th), but people disliked Russian which was the language of the dictators and we were forced to learn it. (I still got pretty good and enjoyed it, but most people learned English better than they did Russian)

OTOH, English was the language of the free world. I am sure that this contributed to the motivation of many students. Aside form that, I just loved English as a language. And I learned it completely without thinking I would EVER be able to even visit a country where it was spoken; until I was in college, the thought that the regime might end and the Wall be opened never occurred to me.

So, yes, I was motivated, but not by any practical considerations - just because.

[KAR120C]

I have never personally known anyone who has been able to achieve what you have done. Everyone I know who is proficient to your degree had access to native speakers and a chance to "live" the language. Were you truly able to converse at a normal/proficient level when you first attempted to speak with native speakers? Did they understand you with no problem? Could you fully understand them? Honestly, it boggles my mind that this is possible.

One of my first jobs was in a university science department where I got to get to know virtually all of the new science and engineering grad students each year for three years... and there really were some (not all!) who managed this. No one was absolutely positively perfect in accent and everything, but plenty were quite capable of fluent conversation. Plenty weren't too... It didn't seem to match up to specific country or region that well -- that is, there were Russian students (and Indian and Bulgarian, and Chinese students) who were fluent and Russian students (and Indian and Bulgarian, and Chinese students) who could just barely ask where the bathroom was. And one student I got to be friends with who had spoken English virtually all her life and was perfectly perfectly fluent in conversation could not follow a movie with heavy English accents at all.

 

My goal for DS isn't perfect unaccented fluency in anything. I just want him to know enough of the languages he studies to get around in another country, not panic in conversations, watch movies without subtitles, read books, and be in a position that if he were to want to improve his language he's not starting at the beginning.

[4wildberrys]

The only way to achieve proficiency in a spoken language is to speak it with people who know it.

One first step is to give the student plenty of opportunities to hear it spoken. This is easily accomplished in a homeschool using online programs, newcasts, audiobooks, and films - there are many free resources available.

The second, and much harder, step is to find a conversation partner. You may find a native speaker in the neighborhood, a foreign student, a language group. In a pinch, a non-native speaker who is somewhat proficient will be better than nothing. But without the opportunity for conversation, a student will not learn to spontaneously speak.

 

(For me, this is the hardest part of homeschooling. DD is studying French, and we have a French native who comes an talks with us once a week.)

 

 

No, two years of a foreign language are nowhere near enough for anything resembling proficiency. Even four years is inadequate; for proficiency, I would say 8-10 years are necessary. Which means that starting in high school as commonly done in the US is too late. I don't know what is expected from a two year course- to me that is too short a time to make any sense.

(In my home country, foreign language instruction begins with the first language in 3rd grade which allows for ten years of instruction; the second foreign language is added in 6th grade, and a third language somewhere during the high school years.)

 

Btw, the common practice of having language teachers in schools here who themselves are not proficient in the language they teach never ceases to amaze me.

:iagree::iagree:!!!!! I took French from 4th grade all the way though college---even traveled there----but without having someone to converse with on a regular basis, I have never been able to really speak it! Sad but true :glare: I would also say that unless someone has a 'real' passion to learn to speak a language, it's also not going to happen, especially with the meager 2 years of high school requirements!

 

I LOVE French and my dd LOVES German----but I am requiring both my kids to learn Spanish to basic proficiency because it will be a language they will use, especially living in CA.

[Joan in GE]

I took French from 4th grade all the way though college---even traveled there----but without having someone to converse with on a regular basis, I have never been able to really speak it! Sad but true :glare:

 

This is sad to read - you invested an enormous amount of time already. I hope you have had some positive result, even if it is learning how to figure out different systems, understanding English better, or something.

 

I couldn't speak until I had to take care of children as an au pair! But I learned some swear words without knowing it, and occasionally my children will now say - "Mom, you shouldn't say that!" The words went in as words without a moral guideline. Now that I realize some words are swear words that are less obvious, I find children swear a lot over here.

 

If you can get your children to take care of Spanish-speaking children it could really help.

 

We just visited a couple who had adopted two Russian girls aged 3 and 6 yo only three months ago. They are already chattering away in Swiss German, so fast that my children cannot understand them, and would not answer in Russian to a Russian family that came for a visit.

 

Joan

[regentrude]

But I learned some swear words without knowing it, and occasionally my children will now say - "Mom, you shouldn't say that!" The words went in as words without a moral guideline. Now that I realize some words are swear words that are less obvious, I find children swear a lot over here.

 

Swear words are very difficult, because they carry so much cultural connotation. I am sure I have used inappropiate words at some point or other; for some words, I know exactly what they mean - but in my native language that word is not considered a bad word, while the exact same word in the US is. (For instance the word for "hell" in German is completely neutral, describing a location... I had no idea it would be an offensive word in this country)

And to learn THAT really takes many years of living in a country, hearing those words used and having a chance to observe other people's reaction to hearing the word used.

[KAR120C]

Swear words are very difficult, because they carry so much cultural connotation. I am sure I have used inappropiate words at some point or other; for some words, I know exactly what they mean - but in my native language that word is not considered a bad word, while the exact same word in the US is. (For instance the word for "hell" in German is completely neutral, describing a location... I had no idea it would be an offensive word in this country)

And to learn THAT really takes many years of living in a country, hearing those words used and having a chance to observe other people's reaction to hearing the word used.

Or about 4 weeks of summer camp with teenagers. :lol: My earliest learning of Russian was brief, spotty, and really skewed toward certain topics! LOL By the middle of the month I could stagger through a store transaction (what is that? one ____ please. thank you.), but I could say all kinds of less-appropriate things!

[EKS]

Latin would be the only language where I'd think it would be OK to just read it - because you just don't talk in Latin to anybody these days.

 

 

A good friend of my father's was stationed in the Italian countryside during World War II. He claims that he was able to communicate with the residents there using Latin.