Thread #452 on the purpose of writing

[elegantlion]

I've read every thread on the logic board about writing. I've printed off copious notes from many wonderful posters who have been kind enough to journal what they've done and how it worked. I've read every thread on the high school board about writing.

 

I've looked at many programs and many philosophies about writing. I've created a forest in my mind and I've lost sight of the path. I won't begin to list the number of samples I've looked at, printed, read reviews from every google source. etc, ad infinity and beyond.

 

So with the end goal in sight (the end goal being my son can communicate well on paper and handle a college writing load) - ugh, that's not even a sentence. I'm not changing it, I have a sinus thing and thinking literally hurts. I'd like to say those skills will transfer to some appeal to write in real life but as of today his outlook on writing is "why do I have to?" He's a smart kid, but had some writing delays, stemming from reading delays, so he is not quite "typical" in the writing department.

 

As I read these philosophies I find portions that resonate with me and portions that will help ds progress through the path, if I can find it again.

 

I'm summing up what I think is the path. Please let me know if this is the basics. Am I missing anything? I know I'm way overthinking today (who am I kidding it's not just today).

 

Learn good grammar, what it is how to use it.

Learn to write a quality sentence and how to change it around if necessary.

Learn to write a succinct paragraph.

Learn to write essays. (expository, persuasive, comparison, ??)

Learn to write a literary analysis.

Learn how to cite resources .

Learn how read and use a textbook (Nan had a great post on this)

Learn how to write a proper science report.

 

I need to do some backward thinking on this and think (:lol:) if I start with what we need to complete I can figure out our best path to get there.

[Kfamily]

I think your list looks great...I'll copy it if you don't mind?:D

I'm not much help, I know. I can only add my shared frustration.

 

But, I know how you feel about writing. What is it with writing??:001_smile:I can handle Latin and French and I didn't even take those languages. I'm not even as afraid of Algebra I, and math was not my area. But writing really gets to me. I loved writing as a child and in school English was my favorite subject. Now it is both my dds' passion. :lol:

 

Where is the writing program that will allow me to teach writing the way I know it should be taught? I know what I want the end result to look like for dds, but I don't know how to break it down into skills for each year. And where is the program that is flexible enough that you can integrate other subjects and your dc's interests, but still maintains the structure needed for an accomplished writer?

Edited February 4, 2011 by Kfamily

[Capt_Uhura]

Can you link to Nan's post on how to use a textbook?

 

Thanks,

Capt Uhura

[Sevilla]

Adding:

Learn how to write Narrative and Descriptive essays.

Research papers - citing sources, outlining, organizing.

[ELaurie]

but I think one of the purposes of writing is to train one's mind.

 

I've often considered that TWTM is not merely a catchy title, it's a meaningful title.

 

I think one of the purposes of instruction in language arts is to train the student's mind to attend both to important details, and to the essential elements that form a meaningful structure. The structure might be that of a word, a sentence, a paragraph, an essay, poem or longer paper.

 

Writing assignments, including narrations, dictation, literary analysis, outlining, and compiling lists of interesting facts train my dc to think - which includes distilling information, determining what's most important (or what's most relevant to the assignment) - and to communicate their thoughts in an organized fashion.

 

I think the training - the process if you will - is often more important than the product.

[8filltheheart]

If essay is defined as proving (and citing sources for) an original thesis, then most writing is actually covered under that single title. One can write a lit analysis or a research paper and use the same "essay" format. The wording and tone may alter, but the same thesis/proof format is essentially the same.

 

It really isn't a single path through a forest. It is really more like a city map. Lots of different paths end up in the same location.

 

Deep breath. Relax. If you saw what they were writing in my ds's freshman comp class at the CC, you wouldn't be stressing at all. :tongue_smilie:

[Capt_Uhura]

8FilltheHeart - Glad to see you here! I hope you and your family are feeling better!

[cheryl h]

I think your list looks great...I'll copy it if you don't mind?:D

I'm not much help, I know. I can only add my shared frustration.

 

But, I know how you feel about writing. What is it with writing??:001_smile:I can handle Latin and French and I didn't even take those languages. I'm not even as afraid of Algebra I, and math was not my area. But writing really gets to me. I loved writing as a child and in school English was my favorite subject. Now it is both my dds' passion. :lol:

 

Where is the writing program that will allow me to teach writing the way I know it should be taught? I know what I want the end result to look like for dds, but I don't know how to break it down into skills for each year. And where is the program that is flexible enough that you can integrate other subjects and your dc's interests, but still maintains the structure needed for an accomplished writer?

 

 

I feel the same way. It doesn't seem like you can get away with using just one program, and cover all that you need to. We have done writing TWTM style..outlining, narrations, even literary analysis; we have also used some MCT Voyage Level writing assignments. All in all, she isn't a bad writer...but there is always something that has to be tweaked. I would rather teach anything else than writing. Not because I am not a good writer myself, but it seems to have more negative effects on my relationship with ddalmost13. She doesn't get that I don't critique her from a 'mean mom' perspective and that her writing 'style' doesn't always communicate her point very clearly, even if she thinks it does. There is too much to be left to personal interpretation. For next year I think I would rather pinch pennies and budget for an online writing class so she can get feedback from someone else, and if that doesn't work then maybe we'll try IEW with the teaching DVD's.

 

All of these recent writing threads are very encouraging...it's so great to know I am not alone. I have not a big of profound advise as it turns out, all I can offer is a :grouphug:.

[1Togo]

Opening a can of worms because the word makes some classical educators cringe, but you might want to add writing with a voice. What is the point of putting words on paper that do not interest the writer or the reader? Writing isn't just a set of prescribed skills.

[elegantlion]

I think your list looks great...I'll copy it if you don't mind?:D

I'm not much help, I know. I can only add my shared frustration.

 

Where is the writing program that will allow me to teach writing the way I know it should be taught? I know what I want the end result to look like for dds, but I don't know how to break it down into skills for each year. And where is the program that is flexible enough that you can integrate other subjects and your dc's interests, but still maintains the structure needed for an accomplished writer?

 

Help yourself, the bolded part is part of the shared frustration.

 

Can you link to Nan's post on how to use a textbook?

 

Thanks,

Capt Uhura

 

Here it is, post #3. ....that's not the right one. Here's the correct one. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2249488&highlight=nan+textbook#post2249488

 

Adding:

Learn how to write Narrative and Descriptive essays.

Research papers - citing sources, outlining, organizing.

 

Adding to my list, thank you.

 

but I think one of the purposes of writing is to train one's mind.

 

I've often considered that TWTM is not merely a catchy title, it's a meaningful title.

 

I think one of the purposes of instruction in language arts is to train the student's mind to attend both to important details, and to the essential elements that form a meaningful structure. The structure might be that of a word, a sentence, a paragraph, an essay, poem or longer paper.

 

I think the training - the process if you will - is often more important than the product.

 

This really shines a light through that forest canopy. I think part of my issue is that I look at a program and neglect to analyze what skill they are trying to teach, instead of just looking at their particular path.

 

If essay is defined as proving (and citing sources for) an original thesis, then most writing is actually covered under that single title. One can write a lit analysis or a research paper and use the same "essay" format. The wording and tone may alter, but the same thesis/proof format is essentially the same.

 

It really isn't a single path through a forest. It is really more like a city map. Lots of different paths end up in the same location.

 

Deep breath. Relax. If you saw what they were writing in my ds's freshman comp class at the CC, you wouldn't be stressing at all. :tongue_smilie:

 

Breathing in, breathing out. Thank you, the wording helps, thesis/proof format. And why is there a city in my forest? :tongue_smilie: I'd prefer a path, maybe two, maybe even a fork in the road, not the whole contents of the silverware drawer. Breathing in, breathing out.

 

8FilltheHeart - Glad to see you here! I hope you and your family are feeling better!

 

Yes, I hope so as well.

 

I feel the same way. It doesn't seem like you can get away with using just one program, and cover all that you need to. We have done writing TWTM style..outlining, narrations, even literary analysis; we have also used some MCT Voyage Level writing assignments. All in all, she isn't a bad writer...but there is always something that has to be tweaked. I would rather teach anything else than writing. Not because I am not a good writer myself, but it seems to have more negative effects on my relationship with ddalmost13. She doesn't get that I don't critique her from a 'mean mom' perspective and that her writing 'style' doesn't always communicate her point very clearly, even if she thinks it does. There is too much to be left to personal interpretation. For next year I think I would rather pinch pennies and budget for an online writing class so she can get feedback from someone else, and if that doesn't work then maybe we'll try IEW with the teaching DVD's.

 

All of these recent writing threads are very encouraging...it's so great to know I am not alone. I have not a big of profound advise as it turns out, all I can offer is a :grouphug:.

Hugs are good, we need all the hugs we can get. I wonder what it will be like coming back to these threads in five or ten years?

 

Opening a can of worms because the word makes some classical educators cringe, but you might want to add writing with a voice. What is the point of putting words on paper that do not interest the writer or the reader? Writing isn't just a set of prescribed skills.

 

As a writer (currently unpublished) I agree. I was just discussing voice with another writer last night.

Edited February 4, 2011 by elegantlion

[Hunter]

Even though I have seen what little is expected from my sons and friends who have attended college, I want to learn to be better prepared if and when I ever recover enough from my PTSD to start college.

 

I got myself really boxed in and confused this year. Reading "Write Like Hemingway" helped get me closer to the right path for me, but it took laying some real cash down and downloading Fred Lybrand's course to get me fully on the right path, for me.

 

There are people here with so many more resources and oppurtunities available to them, but for some of us...who live...well...where we do...we need permission to live here, and I feel like The Writing Course does that.

 

I have the right to write where I'm at, and when I get too bogged down in "shoulds", I stop writing all together, and that gets me nowhere. I've picked back up my pencil and am moving forward no longer so embarrassed, defensive and worried about by my reality.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Hunter

[elegantlion]

Even though I have seen what little is expected from my sons and friends who have attended college, I want to learn to be better prepared if and when I ever recover enough from my PTSD to start college.

 

I got myself really boxed in and confused this year. Reading "Write Like Hemingway" helped get me closer to the right path for me, but it took laying some real cash down and downloading Fred Lybrand's course to get me fully on the right path, for me.

 

There are people here with so many more resources and oppurtunities available to them, but for some of us...who live...well...where we do...we need permission to live here, and I feel like The Writing Course does that.

 

I have the right to write where I'm at, and when I get too bogged down in "shoulds", I stop writing all together, and that gets me nowhere. I've picked back up my pencil and am moving forward no longer so embarrassed, defensive and worried about by my reality.

 

I Love your quote about curriculum in your signature. It's very inspiring in a butt-kicking sort of way. :D

 

One program I own is Igniting your Writing, which I do like. We tried it last year and it was too frustrating for ds at the time. We started again yesterday. I made him work it on his own, with very little input from me. I can see that he is over thinking. The exercise was on thinking about words, not crafting a masterful sentence. We'll see how today goes.

[Tammyla]

Susan's articles from the old site. Tackling the Research Paper Part I, II, III, IV

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-part-i-preparation/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-step-ii-choosing-the-topic/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-part-iii-proving-your-point/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-reasearch-paper-part-iv-matters-of-style/

 

They are worth reading for a little reassurance:001_smile:. nt

Edited February 4, 2011 by Tammyla

[elegantlion]

Can you link to Nan's post on how to use a textbook?

 

Thanks,

Capt Uhura

 

Ugh, I linked to the wrong post earlier. Although good, this is the one I meant to link. I corrected that post too.

[Capt_Uhura]

Thank you!

[Stacy in NJ]

Your list is good, but it doesn't address the how. That's where SWB and TWTM enter the stage. How do you get your student to the point that they're able to produce those items you've listed? My answer, and I can understand if it's not yours, is TWTM, and, as Laurie states, writing isn't just writing; it's about teaching/training the brain to think in a skillful way and then expressing that skill elegently.

 

but I think one of the purposes of writing is to train one's mind.

 

I've often considered that TWTM is not merely a catchy title, it's a meaningful title.

 

I think one of the purposes of instruction in language arts is to train the student's mind to attend both to important details, and to the essential elements that form a meaningful structure. The structure might be that of a word, a sentence, a paragraph, an essay, poem or longer paper.

 

Writing assignments, including narrations, dictation, literary analysis, outlining, and compiling lists of interesting facts train my dc to think - which includes distilling information, determining what's most important (or what's most relevant to the assignment) - and to communicate their thoughts in an organized fashion.

 

I think the training - the process if you will - is often more important than the product.

[elegantlion]

Susan's articles from the old site. Tackling the Research Paper Part I, II, III, IV

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-part-i-preparation/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-step-ii-choosing-the-topic/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-research-paper-part-iii-proving-your-point/

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/writing-the-reasearch-paper-part-iv-matters-of-style/

 

They are worth reading for a little reassurance:001_smile:. nt

 

Thank you, I've not seen those before.

 

Your list is good, but it doesn't address the how. That's where SWB and TWTM enter the stage. How do you get your student to the point that they're able to produce those items you've listed? My answer, and I can understand if it's not yours, is TWTM, and, as Laurie states, writing isn't just writing; it's about teaching/training the brain to think in a skillful way and then expressing that skill elegently.

 

I think the "how" is where I've been getting hung up, hence the need to think backwards. If I can get a clear picture of "what" we need to do I can filter through the programs and design the "how" that will work for my son. I wish one program would suffice and believe me I'm not one for curriculum hopping. It's more of the nuanced flow when you KNOW something is working for your child, we just haven't found the mark yet. We've found it in most of our others subjects.

[Robin in DFW]

I have learned bunches from all the recent threads on writing...

 

BUT...

 

I am still floundering...even drowning...just trying to sort it all out so I can actually teach my son...sigh...

 

My dd18 and dd22 (this one is a journalism major) are both wonderful writers...I never really had to encourage them or instruct them (well, the oldest went to ps, so I didn't have to do much at all...)...

 

But, my son...he is very bright so he THINKS he knows how to do everything...it's tough...

 

I listened to SWB's mp3 lectures on middle school and high school writing AGAIN and the literary analysis one as well...so much to chew on...

 

I have printed out 8FillTheHeart's wonderful processes...

 

I have found and printed out generic "how to write a paragraph" and "how to write a 5-paragraph essay" instructions...these are the most straightforward and make it seem easy, but in my reality...not so much so...

 

Don't get me wrong, my son can write okay for his age/grade. I just want him to write better. I want him to enjoy it, take pride in it.

 

I have all this information in my head about how to do it, but I can't seem to extract it in an orderly way to really teach him...

 

Okay, my head hurts now...off to finish my coffee...

 

ETA: I have tried every writing curriculum out there...they all seem pointless...to me as well as my son...we have had the best luck with SWB's suggestions and applying writing to current subjects. My dd18 recently said all those writing programs I had her use really didn't do a whole lot for her ("not a big fan of those" were her exact words). She said just writing for her subjects and sorting through things over the years is what has been the most helpful...and having a writing reference book...she's my compliant child, though...my son...ummmm...no...

Edited February 4, 2011 by Robin in DFW

[PeterPan]

Paula, I'm coming into this late, but could I suggest that KarenAnne's comments might hold a bit of wisdom for you? You've outlined a very traditional, formulaic method of approaching writing (grammar, sentences, words, paragraphs, longer works). Could I suggest that a more appropriate path for the dc struggling with language issues is:

-being able to get out thoughts accurately (punctuation, spelling, etc.)

-being able to get out own thoughts vs. thoughts you're given via dictation

-being able to logically arrange those thoughts (and not lose them or get flustered) before you get them down on paper/computer

-being able to pull together multiple resources to logically arrange and to develop thoughts you get down on paper

 

At any point the dc with dyslexia or language expression or processing problems or working memory gets tripped up. The point is, those are the SKILLS they have to develop. It doesn't matter a jolly fig if you do those skills using fiction or non-fiction, faux journals, fantastic outer space stories, book reports, whatever. The point is there's a progression of language expression, and the more you build his facility at getting the language at, the better he'll be able to do it. Writing a paragraph on leaves is a slight thing if he has the foundational skills of being able to get his thoughts out, being able to hold his thoughts, being able to rearrange his thoughts, being able to combine multiple sources and think hierarachically (is that a word?) about them, etc.

 

We tend to obsess about wanting a particular progression (sentence to paragraph to essay), because it's easy to define. I think for the struggling dc, the skills, the developmental skills, the language EXPRESSION skills that come naturally or easily to some kids, have to be nurtured. And I think KarenAnn is right that there are lots of ways to get there.

 

If that makes no sense, then oops. That's just where I'm at with writing. I think guiding the dc through the developmental levels of his ability to express language (expressive language processing) is more important than what specific output it applies to.

[PeterPan]

BTW, I have in my house *2* people who struggle with writing, so it's been a really funny thing to contrast them with me. What I've found, in watching them, is that when they HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY and really want to say it, they ENJOY the process. It's bizarre, because I can write or get my thoughts out so easily and yet don't for pleasure (aside from my internet time, haha). They on the other hand find it challenging and yet enjoy it, go figure. I think there's something to that, that there's a latent desire to communicate that we want to flesh out and not assume it HAS to take one form or another. Sure they have to learn form later, but they can. The point is to improve their ability to get it out.

 

I've also noticed the role working memory and the ability to handle distractions plays in these people. I had a roommate in college who could handle NO distraction, not even the faint rustle of pages in the library. My dh goes to a quiet room and shuts the soundproof door, I kid you not. With dd, I thought I needed to be there and help her, and actually she needs the opposite, time to herself to wrestle and get it out. So what I've been doing is gently, surreptitiously, adding distractions to her environment to increase her ability to handle them while working through those stages of expressive language development. I think that's WAY more important than whether she wrote a paragraph on leaves. If she can write the paragraph on leaves, but only with absolute silence, where is she??? So I give her daily assignments and increase the distraction.

 

I also think time pressure is an issue for them. I've been intentionally giving dd assignments with a short turn-over and no grace. Read the book tonight, write a single page on such and such from the book tomorrow. I'm trying to increase the pressure, because that again is reality. I might even be making the pressure a bit MORE than necessary, but I'm doing it so that when deadlines like that come, she won't lock up. She'll just go "Oh yeah, I can have that ready for tomorrow." That's NOT something regular people struggle with, but it is an issue for kids who struggle to get their thoughts out.

 

Well there you go, more rambling. Maybe I'll eat crow later. Maybe somebody else thinks structured essays at this age (junior high) are more important. But I'm convinced we're getting nowhere without the expressive language skills, so that's what I'm working on.

Edited February 4, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ok, you asked how you bridge to forms. Did you happen to catch Janice's mention on the hs board about the Webster's New World Student Writing Handbook? Super duper good! Mine came this week, and I've been salivating over all the ways we can use it. You could pick 4 types of writing from it and make it your goal to work on them this year, using them as methods of output in your history studies. Then he would have a REASON for what he's writing, and you'd have the guidance you need.

 

You're going to love the SWH. It totally specs out what to do, the exact steps, what criteria to look for, etc. It's ALL THERE. :)

Edited February 4, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[elegantlion]

 

I have all this information in my head about how to do it, but I can't seem to extract it in an orderly way to really teach him...

 

Okay, my head hurts now...off to finish my coffee...

 

ETA: I have tried every writing curriculum out there...they all seem pointless...to me as well as my son...we have had the best luck with SWB's suggestions and applying writing to current subjects. My dd18 recently said all those writing programs I had her use really didn't do a whole lot for her ("not a big fan of those" were her exact words). She said just writing for her subjects and sorting through things over the years is what has been the most helpful...and having a writing reference book...she's my compliant child, though...my son...ummmm...no...

 

I shall bring the coffee pot and my stack of papers, wait I can't carry all of mine. I'm glad I'm not alone.

 

Paula, I'm coming into this late, but could I suggest that KarenAnne's comments might hold a bit of wisdom for you? You've outlined a very traditional, formulaic method of approaching writing (grammar, sentences, words, paragraphs, longer works). Could I suggest that a more appropriate path for the dc struggling with language issues is:

-being able to get out thoughts accurately (punctuation, spelling, etc.)

-being able to get out own thoughts vs. thoughts you're given via dictation

-being able to logically arrange those thoughts (and not lose them or get flustered) before you get them down on paper/computer

-being able to pull together multiple resources to logically arrange and to develop thoughts you get down on paper

 

At any point the dc with dyslexia or language expression or processing problems or working memory gets tripped up. The point is, those are the SKILLS they have to develop. It doesn't matter a jolly fig if you do those skills using fiction or non-fiction, faux journals, fantastic outer space stories, book reports, whatever. The point is there's a progression of language expression, and the more you build his facility at getting the language at, the better he'll be able to do it. Writing a paragraph on leaves is a slight thing if he has the foundational skills of being able to get his thoughts out, being able to hold his thoughts, being able to rearrange his thoughts, being able to combine multiple sources and think hierarachically (is that a word?) about them, etc.

 

We tend to obsess about wanting a particular progression (sentence to paragraph to essay), because it's easy to define. I think for the struggling dc, the skills, the developmental skills, the language EXPRESSION skills that come naturally or easily to some kids, have to be nurtured. And I think KarenAnn is right that there are lots of ways to get there.

 

If that makes no sense, then oops. That's just where I'm at with writing. I think guiding the dc through the developmental levels of his ability to express language (expressive language processing) is more important than what specific output it applies to.

 

Makes lots of sense, will re read later and absorb. The skills progression is part of the forest too. And again it would be much easier if my son would develop and grow in a logical order. :tongue_smilie: Kidding, sort of. He doesn't go from A to B, he goes from A to C back to B, all the while understanding Z.

 

BTW, I have in my house *2* people who struggle with writing, so it's been a really funny thing to contrast them with me. What I've found, in watching them, is that when they HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY and really want to say it, they ENJOY the process. It's bizarre, because I can write or get my thoughts out so easily and yet don't for pleasure (aside from my internet time, haha). They on the other hand find it challenging and yet enjoy it, go figure. I think there's something to that, that there's a latent desire to communicate that we want to flesh out and not assume it HAS to take one form or another. Sure they have to learn form later, but they can. The point is to improve their ability to get it out.

 

I've also noticed the role working memory and the ability to handle distractions plays in these people. I had a roommate in college who could handle NO distraction, not even the faint rustle of pages in the library. My dh goes to a quiet room and shuts the soundproof door, I kid you not. With dd, I thought I needed to be there and help her, and actually she needs the opposite, time to herself to wrestle and get it out. So what I've been doing is gently, surreptitiously, adding distractions to her environment to increase her ability to handle them while working through those stages of expressive language development. I think that's WAY more important than whether she wrote a paragraph on leaves. If she can write the paragraph on leaves, but only with absolute silence, where is she??? So I give her daily assignments and increase the distraction.

 

I also think time pressure is an issue for them. I've been intentionally giving dd assignments with a short turn-over and no grace. Read the book tonight, write a single page on such and such from the book tomorrow. I'm trying to increase the pressure, because that again is reality. I might even be making the pressure a bit MORE than necessary, but I'm doing it so that when deadlines like that come, she won't lock up. She'll just go "Oh yeah, I can have that ready for tomorrow." That's NOT something regular people struggle with, but it is an issue for kids who struggle to get their thoughts out.

 

.

 

My son just kicked the dog out of the classroom because she was licking her paws and driving him crazy. My typing on the keyboard is probably driving him crazy. He's doing his writing assignment right now. You're not rambling, I appreciate your input.

 

If he could simply talk about everything and never have to write, he'd be happy. Sorry, bucko.

 

Ok, you asked how you bridge to forms. Did you happen to catch Janice's mention on the hs board about the Webster's New World Student Writing Handbook? Super duper good! Mine came this week, and I've been salivating over all the ways we can use it. You could pick 4 types of writing from it and make it your goal to work on them this year, using them as methods of output in your history studies. Then he would have a REASON for what he's writing, and you'd have the guidance you need.

 

You're going to love the SWH. It totally specs out what to do, the exact steps, what criteria to look for, etc. It's ALL THERE. :)

 

It's in my cart, now waiting for dh to get paid again. Thanks for your thoughts, Elizabeth, I will be pondering them over lunch.

[Hunter]

I have found and printed out generic "how to write a paragraph" and "how to write a 5-paragraph essay" instructions...these are the most straightforward and make it seem easy, but in my reality...not so much so...

 

Exactly! On another topic of writing Fred Lybrand talks about how things we do naturally in English are generalized and then turned into a rule, that we then try and squeeze everything into :-0

 

It reminds me of my Amish/Mennonite wannabe stage :-( Okay, there are some generalizations of how to simplify life, that when you turn them into rules just complicate things. But with Christianity and with writing, I thought I just needed more and more explicit rules, tighter and tighter, just a more EXACT method.

 

Only when I get to the end of the most intense rules, do I realize...that I'm moving in the opposite direction of how to do this thing :-0 I don't need tightening, I need loosening, because generalizations don't always work and when they are made into rules they squeeze the voice and individuality and spontaneity and life out people.

 

Generalizations make good examples, but not rules!

[elegantlion]

 

With dd, I thought I needed to be there and help her, and actually she needs the opposite, time to herself to wrestle and get it out. So what I've been doing is gently, surreptitiously, adding distractions to her environment to increase her ability to handle them while working through those stages of expressive language development. I think that's WAY more important than whether she wrote a paragraph on leaves. If she can write the paragraph on leaves, but only with absolute silence, where is she??? So I give her daily assignments and increase the distraction.

 

I also think time pressure is an issue for them. I've been intentionally giving dd assignments with a short turn-over and no grace. Read the book tonight, write a single page on such and such from the book tomorrow. I'm trying to increase the pressure, because that again is reality. I might even be making the pressure a bit MORE than necessary, but I'm doing it so that when deadlines like that come, she won't lock up. She'll just go "Oh yeah, I can have that ready for tomorrow." That's NOT something regular people struggle with, but it is an issue for kids who struggle to get their thoughts out.

 

 

Amazingly I've opted to let do the last two writing assignments on his own. IYW is written to the student and at this point it's pretty basic. Today he slammed out the entire assignment in less than 25 minutes, without complaint. Had I been helping it probably would have taken an hour. So this weekend I will be examining our structure and see how much "help" I've been giving.

[PeterPan]

I have to be quick here, but I think the distraction thing can be sensory (it sets off something that's an issue for them or they're already out of sync) or that it taxes their working memory or that it just plain makes harder something that's already hard for them. Or all three of course, lol.

 

So some thinking on how he gets his language out and where the glitch is.

[PeterPan]

Amazingly I've opted to let do the last two writing assignments on his own. IYW is written to the student and at this point it's pretty basic. Today he slammed out the entire assignment in less than 25 minutes, without complaint. Had I been helping it probably would have taken an hour. So this weekend I will be examining our structure and see how much "help" I've been giving.

 

Bingo. It's not just that the assignment was different. It's something about us being there. I have to tell myself to WALK AWAY. I go surf or clean my sewing room or make lunch or something.

 

On the distractions, that's a slow process. First get the process working without for a few weeks. Have you done sensory stuff? Does he have that issue? We're doing lots of things for sensory (OT exercises at night, trampoline, that type thing) that put her generally in a better place. Sensory issues distract from their ability to focus their working memory. Then, when you get it working well without any distractions, add in the lightest amount of something. Not the dog licking, lol. I turn on a Thomas the Train dvd very faintly or will have the sweeper on upstairs, something removed a bit but still coming into his space. You just want to stretch him, not overwhelm him.

 

Also play games that involve working working memory and holding one thought while he does something else. Ticket to Ride Europe is really good for this. We've been playing a lot of games lately, and these games, to me, are JUST as important as school, because I'm working on specific skills with them.

[elegantlion]

Bingo. It's not just that the assignment was different. It's something about us being there. I have to tell myself to WALK AWAY. I go surf or clean my sewing room or make lunch or something.

 

On the distractions, that's a slow process. First get the process working without for a few weeks. Have you done sensory stuff? Does he have that issue? We're doing lots of things for sensory (OT exercises at night, trampoline, that type thing) that put her generally in a better place. Sensory issues distract from their ability to focus their working memory. Then, when you get it working well without any distractions, add in the lightest amount of something. Not the dog licking, lol. I turn on a Thomas the Train dvd very faintly or will have the sweeper on upstairs, something removed a bit but still coming into his space. You just want to stretch him, not overwhelm him.

 

Also play games that involve working working memory and holding one thought while he does something else. Ticket to Ride Europe is really good for this. We've been playing a lot of games lately, and these games, to me, are JUST as important as school, because I'm working on specific skills with them.

 

He doesn't have sensory issues as far as I know, he usually prefers to do 100 things at a time, much like his father. He's been more vocal about what he's actually thinking lately and I've had some doozies lately. Like throwing out random thoughts about a hip recall commercial while he's doing algebra. Part of me would like to peer into his brain and see what's firing where when that happens.

 

I need to read The Edison Trait book again. It struck a chord the first time but now that we're elevating the skill level I need to revisit it. I think I'm a fairly average thinker in the way I process information, but ds seems to process information totally differently.

[PeterPan]

Our OT was explaining that people are can be either high stim or low stim. My dd is low stim, so she wakes up slowly and just has a low set-point. I'm the opposite, high stim. I wake up with 30 things on my mind and they fly around all day long. Don't know why I'm telling you that, except maybe if it clicks. Indeed I chuckled when the OT said xyz traits were signs of ADD. I told her I thought they just meant you were gifted. ;) I think the Davidson institute has some charts like that.

[elegantlion]

Our OT was explaining that people are can be either high stim or low stim. My dd is low stim, so she wakes up slowly and just has a low set-point. I'm the opposite, high stim. I wake up with 30 things on my mind and they fly around all day long. Don't know why I'm telling you that, except maybe if it clicks. Indeed I chuckled when the OT said xyz traits were signs of ADD. I told her I thought they just meant you were gifted. ;) I think the Davidson institute has some charts like that.

 

:lol: I need to do some reading on that. My dh is high energy. I wouldn't call him ADD, but he has very high energy and gets 100 things done before I even wake up. We are the tortoise and the hare. In fact we got into an almost fight this morning (we've been married 18 years mind you) because he wanted to discuss something important to him when I had only been up for 45 minutes. I bit his head off, then later apologized. Ds tends to fall in between. He's not a morning person but his mind gets rolling and then works like dh.

 

So maybe my issue isn't a writing program at all, it's about how my ds processes information and how I decipher that in order to teach. I imagine that is where I'll find my how.

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok, you asked how you bridge to forms. Did you happen to catch Janice's mention on the hs board about the Webster's New World Student Writing Handbook? Super duper good! Mine came this week, and I've been salivating over all the ways we can use it. You could pick 4 types of writing from it and make it your goal to work on them this year, using them as methods of output in your history studies. Then he would have a REASON for what he's writing, and you'd have the guidance you need.

 

You're going to love the SWH. It totally specs out what to do, the exact steps, what criteria to look for, etc. It's ALL THERE. :)

 

I can't find Janice's post about the Webster's book. Is there more there than just recommending the title? I have checked it out from the library, an older edition than what appears on Amazon. I'm just curious to see if she said any further details about how she used it.

[Robin in DFW]

"Like throwing out random thoughts about a hip recall commercial while he's doing algebra. Part of me would like to peer into his brain and see what's firing where when that happens."

 

My son has latched onto this commercial as well...DePuy Hip Replacement Recall...what a hoot...great minds and all that...snort...

 

And...I'm reading all the replies with great interest and enthusiasm this afternoon...while having more coffee...:tongue_smilie:One can never have too much coffee.

 

I am really loving what everyone is contributing today...I am wrestling with all of it and will conquer this beast...I have lots of ideas swirling in my head about how to implement things...I get some great thinking done on the elliptical every evening...

[8filltheheart]

I have learned bunches from all the recent threads on writing...

 

BUT...

 

I am still floundering...even drowning...just trying to sort it all out so I can actually teach my son...sigh...

 

My dd18 and dd22 (this one is a journalism major) are both wonderful writers...I never really had to encourage them or instruct them (well, the oldest went to ps, so I didn't have to do much at all...)...

 

But, my son...he is very bright so he THINKS he knows how to do everything...it's tough...

 

I listened to SWB's mp3 lectures on middle school and high school writing AGAIN and the literary analysis one as well...so much to chew on...

 

I have printed out 8FillTheHeart's wonderful processes...

 

I have found and printed out generic "how to write a paragraph" and "how to write a 5-paragraph essay" instructions...these are the most straightforward and make it seem easy, but in my reality...not so much so...

 

Don't get me wrong, my son can write okay for his age/grade. I just want him to write better. I want him to enjoy it, take pride in it.

 

I have all this information in my head about how to do it, but I can't seem to extract it in an orderly way to really teach him...

 

Okay, my head hurts now...off to finish my coffee...

 

ETA: I have tried every writing curriculum out there...they all seem pointless...to me as well as my son...we have had the best luck with SWB's suggestions and applying writing to current subjects. My dd18 recently said all those writing programs I had her use really didn't do a whole lot for her ("not a big fan of those" were her exact words). She said just writing for her subjects and sorting through things over the years is what has been the most helpful...and having a writing reference book...she's my compliant child, though...my son...ummmm...no...

 

I read this earlier today right before walking out the door and I have been pondering it.

 

My kids have been all over the place as far as writing skills go. My weakest writer is my 11th grader. She absolutely loves great literature. She reads for pleasure for hrs daily. She had devoured more great books for fun than I would ever even consider assigning.

 

My 9th grader is an incredibly strong writer. He didn't even read decently until late 3rd grade. Until 6th grade, he would not read unless I assigned it. He approached writing with disdain until LLfLOTRs and he was inspired by Tolkien's love of linguistics and realized that language was something to be appreciated.

 

But, what is it that actually distinguishes their writing? What is it that makes his writing excellent and her writing fuzzy or belabored? This is what I have been pondering today.

 

Dd is my child that has always struggled with meandering in her writing. She makes leaps that in her mind are there but are in reality absent in her writing.

 

Ds, otoh, is very mathematically inclined and writes math proofs constantly. His writing is clear, concise, logical, and every point proved.

 

So......both love language in different ways. Dd keeps a common place book where she constantly writes down thought-provoking or inspirational quotes from her reading. Ds loves to analyze sentences and take them apart. (he loved TC's Building Great Sentences (or a title something like that)

 

Anyway, the reading is different. The approach to language is different. They think completely differently.

 

Writing instruction has been vital to both of them. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses in their writing. The only objectives I can have for each of them is to help them to improve on their personal weakness and build on their strengths.

 

Lots of writing practice (cumulative over the yrs) has helped develop their skills. My kids have not been able to go from introduction of a concept to mastery in a couple of writing assignments. It has taken repeated similar assignments giving them enough familiarity with the process to grow in maturity "within" the style.

 

I don't know if that makes any sense or not.

Edited February 5, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Leanna Tomlinson]

 

what makes his writing excellent and her writing fuzzy or belabored?

 

Dd is my child that has always struggled with meandering in her writing. She makes leaps that in her mind are there but are in reality absent in her writing. You have just put into very succinct words the BIG problem I see in my co-op classes. I spent 20 minutes trying to explain this to my class today. I think I want to come up with a collection of examples to illustrate this deficiency.

 

 

The only objectives I can have for each of them is to help them to improve on their personal weakness and build on their strengths.This is a good point. I sometimes forget to explain exactly what they do RIGHT, so that they keep doing it. :)

 

Lots of writing practice (cumulative over the yrs) has helped develop their skills. My kids have not been able to go from introduction of a concept to mastery in a couple of writing assignments. It has taken repeated similar assignments giving them enough familiarity with the process to grow in maturity "within" the style. Another excellent point. So many programs try to offer such a wide variety of assignments requiring students to constantly utilize a new format rather than helping them refine a particular structure and style.

 

.

:iagree::iagree:

[Robin in DFW]

the voice of reason once again...

 

I need to chill and not expect immediate results...I am such an instant gratification person...

 

I am going to work on how we are going to proceed from here on...not worrying about what we haven't accomplished in the past, but what we will be achieving starting on Monday...

 

Thanks again...

 

PS...I just might have a look at LLftLotR...

[elegantlion]

 

My son has latched onto this commercial as well...DePuy Hip Replacement Recall...what a hoot...great minds and all that...snort...

 

And...I'm reading all the replies with great interest and enthusiasm this afternoon...while having more coffee...:tongue_smilie:One can never have too much coffee.

 

 

 

Yes the comment was, "What would you do if your hip was recalled?" I had to think for a moment before I realized the connection. :lol::lol: We also quote the side effects lists from medication commercials. If nothing else he can go into advertising, or perhaps we could assemble a group to make a modern version of Monty Python.

[PeterPan]

I can't find Janice's post about the Webster's book. Is there more there than just recommending the title? I have checked it out from the library, an older edition than what appears on Amazon. I'm just curious to see if she said any further details about how she used it.

 

Ok Uhura, I spent the whole of today trying to remember WHERE I read that rec from Janice, as I KNEW I read it! LOL Finally found it. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2363319#post2363319 See if this pulls it up. It was on this board, not the high school board. The whole thread is of course reading, but what you're specifically looking for is in Janice's posts.

[Capt_Uhura]

LOL thanks OHELizabeth! That's the post I saw and the reason why I checked it out. I was wondering if she went into more details on the book at the high school board. Thanks for all your leg work!

[Tammyla]

Double thank you...I could not remember the title with my winter brain drain, and you just happen to post a link...ty. This morning I was able to purchase a new copy with my B&N discount and a 15% off coupon. It was a great deal on what looks to be a very good resource.

 

Ok Uhura, I spent the whole of today trying to remember WHERE I read that rec from Janice, as I KNEW I read it! LOL Finally found it. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2363319#post2363319 See if this pulls it up. It was on this board, not the high school board. The whole thread is of course reading, but what you're specifically looking for is in Janice's posts.