I need to look at this differently--character/behaviour issues?

[woolybear]

We're having some issues behaviour issues here. My younger ds is having problems with hitting/kicking. He is 8. I personally think it is too much. I know some of this is normal, but I would think by age 8 it should be less. It seems worse these days. There may be a bit of cabin fever making it worse, but that is no excuse. I feel like I have tried and tried. It now is to the point of upping the repercussion because my older is getting hurt. I think it MUST stop, but nothing seems to be getting through to my younger ds.

 

So, I'm wondering two things. First of all, perhaps I need a little perspective. Like maybe this isn't SO unusual for an eight year old. Or is it?

 

Second, I was wondering if some kind of character education program might address things like this. Also, how to resolve conflicts, listen with respect, obey mom, etc.

 

So, if you answered yes to above, do you have any recommendations?

I need to add we are not Christian. I don't mind that being an element, but if it is too heavily religious it won't work for us.

 

Also, money is very tight, so it would need to be free or very cheap. Book recommendations from the library would be good as well.

 

Any other thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Edited January 20, 2011 by woolybear
Thought of something else

[TKDmom]

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but Siblings Without Rivalry helped with my perspective in sibling dynamics. It also helped me see where I'm playing favorites so that I can minimize the frustration of my middle child.

[brownie]

It's not typical if we're talking daily issues and not boyish wrestling. Is it just with his siblings? I have some thoughts but can PM you directly - Brownie

[5LittleMonkeys]

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but Siblings Without Rivalry helped with my perspective in sibling dynamics. It also helped me see where I'm playing favorites so that I can minimize the frustration of my middle child.

:iagree: Also get How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Can Talk. It's by the same authors. There will be some overlap in information but with the two books together you will be able to create a plan to ensure good behavior by focusing on validation of feelings and respect. I have read hundreds of parenting books and these two are my favorite and have had the biggest impact on our family. The best part is that you will be able to start making changes the first day you start reading the book.

 

For what its worth, no, I do not think hitting\kicking is acceptable behavior at any age and I definitely think an 8 year old should be able to control that aggression. He just needs to be taught how to do that and the books mentioned above will tell you how to do that.

 

To get you through until you find a plan I would institute a zero tolerance policy of touching anyone out of anger or frustration. Have a short conversation with him about the fact that hitting and kicking doesn't make him bad it just means that he hasn't learned how to deal with those strong emotions. Let him know that it's really hard to control those emotions but that you are going to come up with a plan to help him. Designate a chair or spot in the house that will be his safe spot. Tell him that if he feels like he is about to hit or kick then he needs to run to his spot to calm down so that he doesn't hurt someone. Each time he does run to the chair instead of hitting, you need to praise him and tell him how proud you are of him. If he does hit then you need to remain un-emotional and say, "It makes me sad when you hurt someone else, please go to your spot until you have settled down. Once you feel that you have your emotions under control you may get up but if you feel yourself about to hit or kick again you need to run and jump in the chair so that you don't hurt someone again." Then you direct your attention to the person who got hurt.

Each and everytime your dc hits or kicks you need to direct him to the chair so that he has a safe and comfortable place to regain his composure. You could even put a pad of paper and a pencil nearby so he can scribble his anger away or a favorite book so he can focus on something else. Your goal will be to eventually teach him how to use words to express his frustration or anger at the person he is dealing with but when you are 8 that is really hard to do. The next best thing is to teach him how to remove himself before it gets to the point of hitting and kicking. It is really key that you remain unemotional when dealing with his unwanted behavior. Also, when directing your attention to the person that got hurt try not to say anything bad about the dc that did the hurting. Make it all about the hurt itself and how it affected the one that got hurt. Something like, "It really stinks when you get hurt. Would you like some ice to put on it?" If they try to start badmouthing your ds then just say, "well, I don't want to talk about him right now, did you say you wanted some ice or do you think you will be okay." Basically you don't want to foster any animosity between the two. Try to re-direct the other dc to something else so that the subject can be dropped.

 

If you are consistent he will eventually become self controlling and will get out of the habit of using hitting\kicking as a release for those emotions.

 

Hope some of that helps. If you have any specific questions let me know!

[kristinannie]

I don't think it is acceptable for him to be hitting or kicking, especially if his sibling is getting hurt. Is there a certain trigger for this behaviour? Does it seem to happen at the same time of the day? You might be surprised to find a pattern. If you can find the trigger, you can deal with it. I would also sit down and talk to him. He is 8 and is old enough to talk with you. You might ask him what he feels like when he is kicking or hitting. Is he sad, angry, bored? If you really listen and ask some pointed questions, you will probably find your answer. He might not feel like he is being heard and you might be able to redirect your anger.

 

In our house, we do not allow any physical contact that hurts. We do timeouts. My kids are a little younger, but I think timeouts are still effective at age 8. There is no warning when someone hurts their sibling. That is an automatic timeout. Then you can have the discussion after the timeout. Don't just ask, "Why were you kicking?" Ask direct questions. I hope you get everything worked out. We had a little trouble with the same thing for awhile. My son was hitting my daughter when she would do something to him (take a toy, knock over his blocks). We taught him other ways to deal with anger and told him to come and get us and we would take care of it. We would put his sister in time out and would make her help him clean it up or whatever she did. That stopped it (for the most part). I do think it is impossible to completely get rid of that kind of behaviour though with kids!

[laundrycrisis]

I'm all for the Faber/Mazlish books, but...for my own kids, I decided that when they cross the line to physical violence, I will deliver immediate consequences first, and we will discuss their feelings and what led up to it later. I won't entertain a discussion about anyone's emotions until they've gone through the consequences for the physical behavior. The message I give is I that I don't give a "carp" WHAT your feelings are/were, physical violence is not ever acceptable, no matter what. Whatever the emotions are, they are expected to deal with them without physical violence.

 

That said, I really like those books for prevention. But I have some friends who get all Faber/Mazlish every time their kids loses self control and tackles or hits someone...IMO the touchy-feely immediate reaction isn't accomplishing much.

Edited January 20, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[5LittleMonkeys]

I'm all for the Faber/Mazlish books, but...for my own kids, I decided that when they cross the line to physical violence, I will deliver immediate consequences first, and we will discuss their feelings and what led up to it later. I won't entertain a discussion about anyone's emotions until they've gone through the consequences for the physical behavior. The message I give is I that I don't give a "carp" WHAT your feelings are/were, physical violence is not ever acceptable, no matter what. Whatever the emotions are, they are expected to deal with them without physical violence.

 

That said, I really like those books for prevention. But I have some friends who get all Faber/Mazlish every time their kids loses self control and tackles or hits someone...IMO the touchy-feely immediate reaction isn't accomplishing much.

 

So what are your consequences for physical behavior and what do you do to prevent it from happening again?

 

It's too bad that your friends aren't getting good results from the methods prescribed by the authors of the books that were recommended but please keep in mind that they may not be using the methods consistently or appropriately. Isn't the best method of parenting to prevent unwanted behavior before it begins? In the case of the OP she has to start somewhere, and starting by letting her dc know that the behavior is undesirable and giving him the tools he needs to prevent it from happening again, seems to be a good place to start. The dc will be receiving the consequence of having to be removed from whatever he was doing prior to the infraction and having to sit alone for a period of time. Obviously, and I'm sure the OP understood that, she shouldn't allow the dc to jump up after only a minute or so and say he was calmer and go right back to what he was doing. He would need to sit for a minimum amount of time that the OP would decide upon.

[Amy Jo]

Well even though you aren't Christian you might read Tomato Staking - it's a book but you can also read it online. My 4 year old can be like that, and the best things for him are: 1) my absolute consistency (he must obey promptly and obediently before he can do any other activity) and 2) watching him (so he is in the same room, and I am keeping him in sight to correct his behavior - hopefully helping him choose a new action before he acts out).

 

HTH,

Amy

[SonshineLearner]

Yup... the tomato staking thing... My son had a rough week last week. He actually shoved and pushed. I know it's because 1) He's immature. At 7, the older kids just basically tick him off and he doesn't remember or use his "coping" mechanisms.... 2) Because I don't pay enough attention to him; I'm busy taking care of "responsibilities" that my duty as "director" have me doing.

Yesterday, I had him stay with me during all "play" time... Much better!! I told him that after a couple of weeks, he could try again. Hitting/shoving/pushing isn't acceptable, and until he's ready to come get me if there's a problem... he can't play without me there. :( BUT, hitting and such... just can't happen.

I even went as far as to explain the "one-punch homicide" thing. You can (as an adult) hit someone once and they can die. Violence is not acceptable.

He kinda understood.... Now to get him to follow through with being able to "leave the situation" instead of react by hurting. :(

[laundrycrisis]

Mine get shut into their room alone until they are prepared to behave like people, and apologize for their inappropriate behavior. If we are out at an activity, or visiting friends, we leave immediately. Time outs anyplace else in our home weren't effective because we need to separate them from each other's sight and hearing.

 

I'm all for the approaches in both books - I have them both - for preventing. I just don't agree with "talking about why this happened" immediately afterward. I have watched friends do this with their youngish kids - the kid has mom's number. There is no real consequence other than a quick chat about feelings...that's it. A couple of these kids have been hitting and attacking for years. The emotional support aspect of the approach appeals to the moms, who are not comfortable with consequences. But without consequences, the kids aren't getting the message that "this won't be tolerated". Because it is tolerated.

 

I am not saying, and never said, that the OP was going to skip consequences. It is what I have seen others do...IMO it's a pitfall. The feelings and tools ways of thinking are great for preventing, and figuring out how to not get there again. But they don't take the place of an immediate consequence.

 

 

So what are your consequences for physical behavior and what do you do to prevent it from happening again?

 

It's too bad that your friends aren't getting good results from the methods prescribed by the authors of the books that were recommended but please keep in mind that they may not be using the methods consistently or appropriately. Isn't the best method of parenting to prevent unwanted behavior before it begins? In the case of the OP she has to start somewhere, and starting by letting her dc know that the behavior is undesirable and giving him the tools he needs to prevent it from happening again, seems to be a good place to start. The dc will be receiving the consequence of having to be removed from whatever he was doing prior to the infraction and having to sit alone for a period of time. Obviously, and I'm sure the OP understood that, she shouldn't allow the dc to jump up after only a minute or so and say he was calmer and go right back to what he was doing. He would need to sit for a minimum amount of time that the OP would decide upon.

[5Wizards]

The feelings and tools ways of thinking are great for preventing, and figuring out how to not get there again. But they don't take the place of an immediate consequence.

 

:iagree:

[Mallory]

While I agree with the others that something needs to be done, but she didn't ask if it was acceptable she asked-

 

 

First of all, perhaps I need a little perspective. Like maybe this isn't SO unusual for an eight year old. Or is it?

 

 

I will step up and say No. No I don't think it is that unusual for an 8yo to hit or kick or push or what ever. For one of my boys it would have been unusual but for the other it was normal, not acceptable, but still normal. I think there are many 8yo who still hit or kick, even if there have been consequences for thier actions since they were 1 year old.

 

Sure something needs to be done and I think you've gotten many good ideas, but I don't want you to feel like either you or he are not normal because he still hits and kicks.

 

(Just for the record, the biggest thing that helps my middle son is physical exertion. I happen to think work is better then just exercise, but that's my own philosophy ;). I think boys need lots of manual labor!)

[laundrycrisis]

I agree the consequences alone aren't enough. I choose immediate consequences when the situation calls for them but that alone probably won't solve anything.

 

I don't think it's unusual for a child that age to get that mad, but I do think it's unusual to not have enough self-control to not hurt his/her siblings by that age. One the preventive side, he might need help learning to be aware of when the feeling is coming, and building a habit of redirecting it to something that doesn't hurt anyone. I don't think talking out is a great idea when someone is really angry because it just becomes a fight. Here, it works better to have something to do with the anger first, then talking.

 

The most useful skill for this that our DS1 learned is to hit the couch. I taught him this when he was two - by four he was turning to use this pretty consistently, and now he is almost 8 and will still pound the couch, or his bed.

 

DS2 chooses instead to go down to the basement by himself and holler.

 

I can't remember which book these ideas were from - it was either Faber/Mazlish, or perhaps Easy to Love. Wherever it came from, having these options helps keep things from blowing up.

[rwilliams]

How about giving him something that he can hit and kick like a one of those hanging weighted bags guys hit at the gym. We have one from walmart that hangs in my son's bedroom. Then you can say, people are not for hitting....but you may hit your gymbag. My son likes to play high energy music real loud and fight the bag. He takes karate. I think it is helpful to help boys channel their natural aggression in healthy ways along with the development of self-control.

[laundrycrisis]

My son likes to play high energy music real loud and fight the bag.

 

I need one of those. For me, not them ! :D

[Mallory]

I wonder if you only asked people who have two boys 1 or 2 years apart if it is normal behavior for the younger to still sometimes hit or kick at 8yo? I suspect there would be more that still see that behavior.

 

Like I said before I think you've got some good advice- tomato staking, sibling rivalry, consequenses everytime, talking, working on different reactions, and so on. Some of it might make a difference quickly, some of it will just be something that has to be done over and over.

 

I'll admit that tomato staking is my first real go to. Often a time out first to calm everyone down then telling him that he'll spend the next day/week/whatever by me. Then lots of heavy chores. Turning soil, cleaning pens, clearing brush, splitting logs, hauling wood and so on- pushups, pull ups, or sit ups are good too.

 

(I've also never thought that hitting other things is okay. I know it is a method that is approved by many, but when he is a teen and hits your things will that be okay? I think a punching bag is different as it is a specific place that you go to punch, but we stil go for physical labor here.)

 

For prevention what helps is again keeping him physically tired. He has so much energy buzzing around in him all the time, if we get that out then things are much better.

 

I also want to say that it has been over a year since the last real outbreak of this behavior. He is nearing 10 now, and it seems like it was about 8 1/2 when I really had to crack down on it last time. While he does still hurt his brothers sometimes, it is almost always in the middle of rough play which, again isn't acceptable, but is a little different story and we are working on it.

[woolybear]

Thank you for all the input. You all have given me some new ideas to go on.

 

We have had consequences here, it is just that they apparently aren't effective. I am going to try some of the suggestions I have read. I have not discussed feelings at the time of the event. I know ds is not calm enough to do that anyway. I do think I need to work on teaching him tools to deal with the anger. Also, I have not been a big fan of what little I had read of tomato staking, but it seems that some form of that would be a good idea for a week or so.

 

We seem to have the most issues these days when both boys go outside to play. Things can get heated if I am there, but I am able to head off a crisis. If I am not, though, it can be iffy of late. I had thought at 10 and 8 they should be able to go out and play without me. And quite frankly, with the weather the way it has been, I have been less than thrilled to go out.

However, "should" be able to play without me seems useless to say right now. They are not able to. I will only allow them to play together outside if I am there. This will be hardest on me, but good for me to get out anyway. Beyond that, obviously, I need to set new consequences and work on teaching him the skills to deal with his anger.

 

One last thing--I had asked if any of this is covered in character education. I am thinking if there is something I could add in to start our day it might be helpful. I have never done character education, so I'm wondering am I off base on that one?

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[2squared]

I wonder if you only asked people who have two boys 1 or 2 years apart if it is normal behavior for the younger to still sometimes hit or kick at 8yo? I suspect there would be more that still see that behavior.

 

This would be a good question to ask. I know my 4yo responds to his older brother more physically than the oldest did at the same age. I don't know what life will look like in 4 years for him, but I can see where he may be slower to develop more physical control as the younger brother.

[Tracy]

I have only skimmed the responses here. I see a lot of good advice about providing appropriate consequences, but I have not seen anything about providing positive reinforcement. In working with both children and disabled adults, I have found it very helpful to identify something the individual really wants and help them work toward that goal. Does he love gifts? Outings? Being able to pick what's for dinner? It doesn't matter what it is as long as it feels very special to your dc.

 

I would look at how often the bad behavior is happening and plan a "check" for that behavior slightly more often than the behavior usually occurs. (For example, if the undesirable behavior happens once per day, then have a checkpoint at lunchtime and at bedtime. If it the behavior happens hourly, then plan the checkpoints for every half hour to start.) Decide how many of these time periods that he has to go without exhibiting that bad behavior before he gets the "prize." That is going to depend on how often he is having these problems. If the problem is only a couple times per week, then going a whole week might be an appropriate goal.

 

You can use a chart to keep track or you can do something like filling up a jar with marbles. Or you can get creative and use something that the dc really likes. For example, my ds loves trains, so we might add a piece to a train every time he succeeds. However, you do it, it is important to give lavish praise at each success and to let each failure be its own consequence rather than chastising the child for his failure. (You have another chance. I know you can do it!) Of course, it always appropriate to talk about what a child can do to have success, but it is important to keep it positive.

 

Some people think that this is like paying a child for what he normally ought to be doing--a bribe. But what it does is twofold: (1) It puts a positive spin on a difficult problem, and (2) it helps the child to see that he has control over the consequences. In other words, it is no longer mom imposing the consequences, but the child's behavior that is causing the consequences.

 

If you want help setting up something, let me know. I have done a lot of them.

 

HTH,

[johnandtinagilbert]

A few things we had to work through to remove the overly aggressive tendancies of my bonus students.

 

No fighting video games or tv. No wrestling, no Star Wars (horrible in our house), to stick fighting, no gun playing, no Nothin' with violent beginning b/c the problem isn't those things, it's the boys ability to maintain self control and enjoy the sport. "Since you can't handle it, I take it away" is our mentality.

 

The elder brother must race the younger brother in ways that will surely have the younger brother win. Younger brother runs straight, while elder races on his knees. He had to learn to enjoy the fun of the race, not only the thrill of victory. Boys NEED physical release, so we just had to get more creative and allow for tree climbing, bikes, scooter, etc in fun ways like setting up cones, not competing against each other. Everything doesn't have to be a race and when it is, we focus on personal best.

 

They have to serve each other. One washes breakfast dishes for both, the other lunch. It creates equality as brothers when both are servants.

 

We took away outside friends. If you can't get along with your brother, we won't trust you to get along with others. The dynamic forces them to be playmates in order to have fun. It transfers nicely when they are afforded other friends. We also make sure they get individual time with friends so they can practice the skills we worked to acquire.

 

We regularly show pictures of our "best" friends growing up and how they are gone from our lives, but our family still remains (at least some of them:lol: we have crazy families!).

 

We use the mantra, "That was not kind, loving, or encouraging to your brother. What can you do to be kind, loving and encouraging." They have to come up with an answer then implement it. If they do so and are ugly about it, I make them sit in time out until the anger passes, then they implement again. I say that phrase a gazillion times, btw!

 

For that implementation, we also promote forgiveness, not, "I'm sorry." We find "I'm sorry" is too easy to say and has lost its meaning in life. Instead, they go to the other brother and say, "Will you forgive me for ____ (insert infraction)." It provides that they take responsibility for their wrong behavior and also teaches them to forgive their brother, an equally important quality. The response must be, "Yes, I forgive you." There are times when they say, "I'm not ready to forgive you yet." At that point, the unforgiver must spend some time alone and get a handle on their emotions. We also find that it's much harder to ask for forgiveness in an ugly tone than it is to simply say, I'm sorry.

 

We talk constantly about having grace for one another. We approach this in regards to the grace God gave us through Christ, but you can leave this out for your purposes and just encourage your definition of grace. We point out how we are gracious with them.

 

It's a constant process. Consistency is the key. They have to learn that they are equals in your sight and at those ages, what applies for one so far as acceptable behavior, also applies to the other.

[ondreeuh]

It sounds like he has a short fuse and doesn't know how to handle his frustration, or is impulsively acting out before he can even thinking about an appropriate reaction. I have an emotional 9 y/o who is very easily frustrated. That's how he's wired, but while he's entitled to his own feelings, he's not entitled to hurt anyone else or disrupt the whole house.

 

Some things to think about ...

 

1) What is leading up to the outbursts? My boys seem to eat all the time, and if they are in any way hungry then their fuse is extremely short. Are the outbursts caused by a common theme (it's not fair!) and is the older sibling egging your 8 y/o on? It's very common for siblings to push buttons because it's fun to watch the explosion. Work on identifying triggers and seeing what you can do about those.

 

2) Can you see the build-up? Try diversion tactics when you see him getting heated up - deep breaths really are effective! A short jog. Time alone to re-group. For my son, a shower resets him beautifully. I'll gladly pay for the water and heat for a therapeutic shower.

 

3) Does he plan to lash out, or is it impulsive? If he plans it, he needs an alternate outlet. Praise him when he uses it. My ds punches his bed or screams in his pillow. If it's impulsive, then he needs to work even harder on recognizing when he starts to lose it.

 

4) When my ds does completely lose it, he gets sent to his room. If I hear legos smashing, then he gets put in the toddler's time-out spot in the hallway. Then he gets a shower and we talk about it.

 

The other day he was really mad and ended up in time-out. He told me he would never talk to me again. I said, "Well I'm going to really miss you. What happened to my sweet Corbin?" and he said, "He EXPIRED!" After his shower he apologized and gave me a hug - all better.

[Targhee]

I think boys are wired differently than girls, and being physical is part of their nature. That isn't to say that hitting is OK, but it does speak to what we should expect of young boys as far as sitting and focusing on school work (or anything else).

 

My DS is only 6, so I can't comment about age-appropriateness (he still has issues with this, but mostly it's out of excitement or frustration/lack of coping skill - not aggression). Something that helps tremendously is for him to get an outlet!!! He wrestles with Dad, does Tae Kwon Do, and I try to get him out as much as possible (we are in AK and in winter it can be hard). Besides giving him a physical outlet, I think taking the time to teach coping skills is important. I don't always have the time I want, but I try to remember to stop him, ask him what a better way to handle his problem is, etc. And one last thing, he does soooo much better after he has received positive, one-on-one attention that is directed by him (not me, or dad) - putting the deposits in his emotional bank.

 

I hope you can help your DS find a solution!

[Laura Corin]

What do you do when he kicks/hits? And how much exercise does he get?

 

Laura