obvious CC: Can one lose their salvation?

[susankenny]

I hope you understand what I write...

 

Love his back. If that's the side of God that you see, then love His back. Say, "Jesus, it seems to me that you have turned your back on me. It feels as though I've sought you for twenty years and you have not answered me. I feel as though you have betrayed the trust I had in you, and yet... and yet, I will go on trusting you with a broken heart. I still love you. I will go on loving you, even if you never turn back to face me, to love me face-to-face. I love you."

 

And then, when He is silent, be still. Wait. Live in the wait.

 

The next step is His. Wait.

 

This was very good. If it didn't speak to the OP, I wanted you to know that I will be printing it off when hard times come myself. Good words.

 

 

Susan

[Forget-Me-Not]

 

I'm putting this first because it's SO important!!! I'm NOT struggling because of PEOPLE. I'm struggling because of GOD.

 

I WON'T go to church because of PEOPLE, and this, too, has affected my relationship with God, but ultimately, I FEEL BETRAYED BY GOD ASIDE FROM PEOPLE/CHURCH.

 

I honestly feel deeply blessed by the people in my life.

 

The underlined jumped out at me when I read your post. You say that you feel that God has turned his back on you, is not responding to your prayers. Isn't it possible that those very people you speak of were SENT to you by God to comfort you in your trial?

 

:grouphug: I hope you can find the peace you so desperately crave.

Edited December 6, 2010 by LemonPie

[Mama Anna]

Denise,

 

I can't say I've been where you are, but I've been through some tough times. The first two years of dd7's life were . . . hard . . . to say the least, for a variety of reasons. There are two reasons that I didn't turn my back on my faith.

 

1) Someone told me that belief is a choice. Heb. 11:1 says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." I had to, again and again, choose to believe in the God that the Bible describes. Regardless of what I saw around me, regardles of what I was experiencing, regardless of what I feared in the future. And some of those things I was afraid of? They happened. I had to deal with the consequences of them even though they were, by and large, not caused by my personal choices and there was nothing I could do to avoid them. When I think of the times I sat on my bed, rocking back and forth with gut-wrenching sobs, fighting to believe . . . :grouphug: to you. Many :grouphug:.

 

2) The shortest verse in the Bible is John 11:35. You know it? It reads, "Jesus wept." Why did he weep? Well, it's part of the story of Lazarus. Remember how Lazarus got sick and his sisters sent word to Jesus? Well, he didn't respond. For two days he stayed where he was. When he finally headed back to Bethany he told his disciples that Lazarus was dead. He knew how severe it was, yet he didn't respond immediately. Mary seemed to catch him on that when she said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." Verse 33 says, "When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled." Then, in verse 35, he wept.

 

I'm sure Jesus knew perfectly well that he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead. I don't believe that he wept because he was grieving for him. I believe that he wept out of compassion for the grief he saw around him, especially Mary and Martha's. To me that meant that even though I was struggling, even though I felt God had betrayed me and pulled a "bait-and-switch," in the midst of my pain He was weeping with me. That helped a lot.

 

I'm so sorry that you're having to watch your children turn away. I don't know what to say about that, except :grouphug::grouphug:. But please, please keep persevering through this horrible struggle! He hurts with you, whether you can trust him or not, and He loves you so much!!

 

:grouphug:

 

Mama Anna

[Laurie4b]

God doesn't betray anyone. It's against His nature to do so. People, however, do and they often do in the "name of Jesus." People are sinners; God is holy.

 

I've been betrayed by the people closest to me and you know what I found during those times? God was closer to me than at any other time. His mercies are new every morning and great is his faithfulness. Don't let sinners behaving in sinful ways steal you from your faith in God. Turn TO him, not FROM Him at this time and He will be faithful to you.

 

Job refused to let his friends, and even his wife, dissuade him from renouncing God and God blessed him abundantly. God reminded Job who was in control and who had the master plan. Trust in that, not in people acting like jerks.

 

I'm sorry you're hurting, but use this hurt to draw closer to God; don't use it to shake your fist at Him. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

God may not betray, but anyone who feels that she has been betrayed by God is in good company with Moses, Jeremiah, David, Habakkuk, etc. Even Jesus on the cross cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" So while I agree that He doesn't betray, his word is full of his people saying to him: You betrayed me! because that's how they are experiencing it. (And eventually they move through the place of feeling betrayed to another place in the relationship.) If a person feels betrayed by God, best be like Denise and flat out say so to Him.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Nakia]

:grouphug: to you first and foremost b/c I, too, have been where you are. Let me just offer a few things. FIRST..none of this surprises God! Your questioning, your hurt, your frustration, your anger, feelings of betrayal, etc. NONE of that surprises Him and certainly NONE of it causes Him to love you any less! That is the good news! I've shaken my fists at God, screamed at Him, ignored Him, questioned Him, etc. All of it. BTDT. I've wrestled with Him until my hip hurt. All of this, my friend, PROVES that you DO recognize that HE EXISTS! Your challenge is not in believing IN Him; it is believing Him. Does that make sense? I don't know the answer to your original question. I've asked it before. I will simply urge you to keep wrestling with Him and with this hurt. He can handle it. It is ultimately bringing you closer to Him. Believe it or not. I will be praying for you. PM me if you need to...I'm not one to get super-religious and preachy. But if you need an empathetic ear, I am good for that. I've btdt and still struggle sometimes. :grouphug:

 

 

That is a great post, Sue, especially the bolded. Wow.

 

Denise,

I have thought about this thread all afternoon. I keep thinking about the parable of the lost sheep from Luke 15: 4-6 What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

 

I don't know what has happened in your life, Denise, to make you doubt God. I do know that you are His. He wants you back. I have been in places of doubt about my life, my faith, God. But when I came back, I could always feel His rejoicing. And my faith was stronger than ever. I believe it will be that way for you too. He will lay you on His shoulders and rejoice that you have come home.

:grouphug:

[Catwoman]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I wish I had some incredible information that would clear things right up for you, Denise, but in all honesty, I just don't. :(

 

I feel so worried about you, though, because you seem so unhappy. I hope you are able to find some peace and clarity -- whatever you eventually decide to accept as "the truth."

 

Cat

Edited December 6, 2010 by Catwoman
Typo Queen Strikes Again!

[Joanne]

If you believe in "salvation" in the traditional Christian sense, you must also believe in Grace.

 

So, no.

[Teachin'Mine]

Denise I am so sorry you're in such pain. :grouphug:

 

I don't have answers for you, but I am praying that you will find the answers you're looking for, and that these will in turn lead you back to Him. I can tell you that He loves you unconditionally. I can also tell you that it can be incredibly painful when prayers aren't answered in the way we'd like them to be. God hears our prayers, but sometimes the answer is "no, I've got a different plan" or "not yet." It's so hard when that's the answer, and I think that many times we won't know the reason for that in this life. But God does have a plan and He does love us. Talk to Him. Cry to Him and tell Him how you feel. Being created in His likeness, God knows and shares our same feelings. Jesus' words "my God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" show that He too experienced your pain.

 

As for other Christians acting in horrendous ways, we're all human. Being Christian, Christ-like, is the goal. We have to constantly work towards that goal and deal with our shortcomings and failures and keep trying again and again. Some call themselves Christian, but are that in name only. It's sad, but true. Some of the worst hide behind that label and choose to place themselves prominently within their church community, often times for power and their own goals. God loves them too, but they harden their hearts to His love and reject Him. Jesus told us again and again that He came to save us sinners. We can look at who he chose for his Apostles - Matthew, a tax collector. He called Paul who persecuted the Christians. He called Mary Magdalene, and ate at the houses of sinners and sought them out. So there is hope for all of us.

 

But to answer your original question, yes we can reject God at any time in our lives. I believe we are faced with the truth about ourselves and about Jesus when we die. I believe it is then that we are given the freedom to choose whether to love Him, or to continue to reject Him. We choose our path. I know that many Christians believe that once saved, always saved. But I believe that how we choose to live our lives counts. Even Jesus told those sinners who turned to Him that they were saved, but not to sin anymore. How we respond to God's call counts. But of course Jesus' mercy is unfathomable. He has the ultimate judgment.

 

:grouphug:

[Teachin'Mine]

I just remembered this and thought I'd post it here. I tried changing my signature, but it's over the 500 word limit and I didn't want to edit out any part of it.

 

Message, 25. November 2010

 

“Dear children! I look at you and I see in your heart death without hope, restlessness and hunger. There is no prayer or trust in God, that is why the Most High permits me to bring you hope and joy. Open yourselves. Open your hearts to God’s mercy and He will give you everything you need and will fill your hearts with peace, because He is peace and your hope. Thank you for having responded to my call.”

 

ETA: I'm not directing this at you Denise, it just came to mind and I thought I'd share.

[justamouse]

God may not betray, but anyone who feels that she has been betrayed by God is in good company with Moses, Jeremiah, David, Habakkuk, etc. Even Jesus on the cross cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" So while I agree that He doesn't betray, his word is full of his people saying to him: You betrayed me! because that's how they are experiencing it. (And eventually they move through the place of feeling betrayed to another place in the relationship.) If a person feels betrayed by God, best be like Denise and flat out say so to Him.

 

Amen.

 

Do you believe God exists? Then get angry at him. It's OK, he can take it. Get pissed. Furious.

 

Get like that guy who at the Smithsonian art show put ants on the crucifix. That was one angry guy. People think that for some reason, when the crud hits the fan, that they can't get pissed at God. I think that's a bucket. My greatest growth came after a season of being downright furious with God. I felt completely betrayed, devastated, ---like the whole of my walk with Him was a waste. You know what? It was cathartic. God used that emotion to work in me. It was all good.

 

I believe it was Mme Guyon who said something to the effect that new Christians still focus on God by worrying about not focusing on God. Meaning your anger is still paying him attention. Anger isn't the opposite of love, apathy is.

 

And I'm with the other poster who said perhaps he was sending you the comforting people-that those people in your life-Jesus in skin-were his answers to your prayer. Most times he answers. Most times we just don't see it because we were looking for him to answer the way we expected him to.

 

(((hugs)))

 

eta, I think a relationship with God is like any other relationship -based on trust. And the truth of your emotion. If you withhold your true emotion because you feel -or have been taught--that its wrong, then it undermines that whole relationship. You're not trusting God with your anger-and He wants you to trust him in all things--even the ugly stuff. He'll still be there. He doesn't cut people off for being mad at him. Otherwise grace would be a joke. Which means the work of Christ on the cross would be a joke. And that's no joke, you know?

 

So shake your fist at him and tell him what a crappy deal you've gotten and who does he think he is, anyway? And cry and have it out with him. He'll still be there. He's not going anywhere.

Edited December 6, 2010 by justamouse

[catalinakel]

Amen.

 

Do you believe God exists? Then get angry at him. It's OK, he can take it. Get pissed. Furious.

 

Get like that guy who at the Smithsonian art show put ants on the crucifix. That was one angry guy. People think that for some reason, when the crud hits the fan, that they can't get pissed at God. I think that's a bucket. My greatest growth came after a season of being downright furious with God. I felt completely betrayed, devastated, ---like the whole of my walk with Him was a waste. You know what? It was cathartic. God used that emotion to work in me. It was all good.

 

I believe it was Mme Guyon who said something to the effect that new Christians still focus on God by worrying about not focusing on God. Meaning your anger is still paying him attention. Anger isn't the opposite of love, apathy is.

 

And I'm with the other poster who said perhaps he was sending you the comforting people-that those people in your life-Jesus in skin-were his answers to your prayer. Most times he answers. Most times we just don't see it because we were looking for him to answer the way we expected him to.

 

(((hugs)))

 

eta, I think a relationship with God is like any other relationship -based on trust. And the truth of your emotion. If you withhold your true emotion because you feel -or have been taught--that its wrong, then it undermines that whole relationship. You're not trusting God with your anger-and He wants you to trust him in all things--even the ugly stuff. He'll still be there. He doesn't cut people off for being mad at him. Otherwise grace would be a joke. Which means the work of Christ on the cross would be a joke. And that's no joke, you know?

 

So shake your fist at him and tell him what a crappy deal you've gotten and who does he think he is, anyway? And cry and have it out with him. He'll still be there. He's not going anywhere.

 

This is wisdom. God can take our anger, our feelings of having been betrayed, our doubts. He wants us to come to Him with the truth that is in our hearts.

 

What I keep thinking of as I consider your op is two things. First, if salvation is a gift from God, then the answer is no, you cannot lose it because it is not a thing that can become lost. It is unloseable and the Bible teaches us that if we belong to Him that we are His. That nothing can separate us from the love of God. Not doubts, not anger, not devastation. If you are one to whom God has given salvation, then it is yours. Period.

 

Second.

Salvation is an interesting word to study in the Bible. It means wholeness, technically. I like this meaning because I believe that this is what Christ accomplished on the cross for us; the ability for us to be restored to wholeness...that the brokenness within our nature which is our inheritance as a result of original sin can be repaired, and we are made whole, and are also in the process of becoming whole(and will in fact be whole come heaven). I believe that we are not capable of producing this wholeness at all. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which we are given at the point of conversion. We don't muster up any of it at all. It is a gift, given by a gracious savior.

 

So, no. I don't believe we can lose our salvation because our salvation has nothing to do with us. It is His doing, His idea, His sacrifice.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I believe that the answer is simple, and people have made it very complicated.

 

For me, it all boils down to this: Sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

 

He is who He is, and His glory shines all about Him. His glory is the same whether it is devouring sin or generating life.

 

I also believe that God knows the hurts you have experienced, and the hurts so many of His dear children have experienced at the hand of people who profess His name, but do not know Him.

 

He also knows that the picture many have of Him is false. They've been looking for Love, in all the wrong places. He knows you've been looking for Him, but haven't found Him, not the *real* Him. He wants to reveal His true character to you, to everyone who will seek Him.

 

I believe that He will come, in all His glory. Those who have been searching for Him will recognize Him when they see Him. Some will have known Him since childhood. Other's will have been looking in all sorts of places, will have been hurt and/or frustrated because nothing they found filled the God-shaped hole in their heart. Yet, when they see Him, they will know Him and will want nothing more. He will be their all in all, and they will live in His presence forever.

 

Others will turn from Him. They will hide behind rocks, or turn on him and throw those rocks at Him. They are the ones who are sin, and they will be destroyed by His glory because sin can't exist in His presence.

 

I believe Christ died once for all (no matter what religion or creed -- as those are all man-made), and that our redemption has already been bought. It is offered to everyone. But, we can refuse it if we choose. The choice has been ours all along.

 

The good news is that He meets us where we are. He knows your hurts and struggles, your doubts and pain. He wants you to sense His nearness as He walks with you through the fire.

 

Just keep talking to Him. It's even okay to preface your prayer with, "If you're really there. . ." He knows you, and He loves you.

[asta]

I keep reading how "churches" have caused people to "lose god".

 

The "church" has bubkus to do with whether or not someone "has" god.

 

At the most basic level, Islam & Judaism, which are both Abrahamic religions, but neither of which involve churches, would suddenly go "poof". Beyond that, what an incredibly narrow view of what is supposed to be an omniscient creator! If god is only present in christian churches (where he is to be lost or found), what about the rest of the world? Are all of those people just an illusion? Are they praying to air?

 

God is a leap of faith; not something to be proven to a person just because they are struggling or p!ssed off. You (global you) don't get proof. Sometimes, if you're lucky, you get a glimpse, or you get hints, but you have to have your eyes open enough to see them. And there is no way that is possible if you're too busy running around in a rage. Life isn't a Broadway show: you don't buy a ticket, sit down, and have god come out on stage and entertain you. Church, synagogue, mosque - none of these places is where you go to be "entertained"; they are where you go to focus your own thoughts, your own feelings. No one is going to save you unless you are willing to save yourself.

 

You have to show up for life.

 

 

asta

[Denisemomof4]

I believe you!! Please know that this is a part of the spiritual journey. Some people---many people never get to where you are. You can endure and your joy and peace will be greater than before if you pray your way through this. Pray the Lord's prayer if that is all you can do at the moment, but don't turn your back on God. He did not turn his back on you. Remember in this life we have to practice faith and hope. Those won't be needed in the next life, but as scripture tells us, they must be practiced now. How could they practiced if there was only peace, joy and spiritual candy from God.

 

but this is my problem. This is what I feel: He turned his back to me and kept silent while my family was trying to keep their heads above water, searching and begging for answers.

 

It's hard to explain without really putting it all out there, but I just absolutely DO feel that he turned his back to us and abandoned us all.

 

That alone is why I have no faith. But the bad treatment my kids received and saw was what I believe led them to believe there was no God. They told me they saw more maturity and good behavior in PS than they did in the church.

 

They are convinced there is no God. Oldest ds I'm CERTAIN had a true relationship with God. He had an admirable passion for God. I think one day he will again, but for the past several years, he's certain there is no God. My younger son, I don't know if he truly ever received salvation.:sad:

[Denisemomof4]

:grouphug:Denise, why not simply share what's going on? Yes, it's a public forum...but it sounds like you have nothing to lose & maybe God can use someone here to shine new perspective on this trouble that is destroying you. What has taken place that God is at fault over???? Your example of a husband with hidden and repulsive behaviors simply can't apply to God. It is against His actual nature to be a liar that deceives. He doesn't just give love. He is love. I'm not sure what has happened, but I know that God cannot be the root of it's blame.

 

I'm so sorry you are feeling broken. As for your salvation? It's only for you to sort out. Personally though, I believe if you had it, it is indeed still your's.

 

Love,

Susan

 

you're right. I signed off after that and went to bed exhausted, and it really wasn't a good example.

 

I'm trying so hard to come up with a better expample without delving into my entire situation but I haven't been able to do so yet. And I failed the first time. :glare:

 

I can most definitely say that the silence we got from God was the most UNLOVING thing ever, and it made me feel like I should have never trusted him.

 

Maybe I'm speaking jibberish and should just keep quiet.:glare:

[milovany]

I so hope what I write helps and doesn't hurt more. I can almost feel your pain in what you write, and I don't want to cause anymore. I can be such a klutz with my words sometimes, so know I'm not meaning this in any way that might across as hurtful. Please forgive me if that happens.

 

Denise, the Bible says those who "endure to the end" will be saved. Is it the end for you or your kids, yet? No? Then for you and your kids it's not yet known whether or not you or they are saved. God is nothing if he's not merciful. Continue doing what you're doing -- wanting to want to believe, and, I love what someone else wrote above, loving "His back." In eastern Orthodoxy we believe salvation is a process -- a long, sometimes painful, sometimes joyful process. Hold on. Grab the last knot on the rope and hold on.

 

[OnTheBrink]

God may not betray, but anyone who feels that she has been betrayed by God is in good company with Moses, Jeremiah, David, Habakkuk, etc. Even Jesus on the cross cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" So while I agree that He doesn't betray, his word is full of his people saying to him: You betrayed me! because that's how they are experiencing it. (And eventually they move through the place of feeling betrayed to another place in the relationship.) If a person feels betrayed by God, best be like Denise and flat out say so to Him.

 

I agree that people can feel that way. But, feelings are not facts. The fact is, God doesn't betray. Personally, I find comfort in that, because when I'm feeling betrayed, ignored, or abandoned by God, I can rely on the fact that He doesn't betray or deceive me. I may not understand the circumstances in my life, or why people do what they do, but I can rest in the knowledge that God doesn't abandon His own. One my favorite verses in Scripture is Habakkuk 1:5 Look among the nations! Observe! Be astonished! Wonder! Because I am doing something in your days--You would not believe if you were told.

 

Actually, Habakkuk is really a good book to read when you're feeling betrayed and overwhelmed. It's a great testament to God's faithfulness in our lives at times when it feels like the world is crashing in and no one's paying attention.

[Denisemomof4]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I wish I had some incredible information that would clear things right up for you, Denise, but in all honesty, I just don't. :(

 

I feel so worried about you, though, because you seem so unhappy. I hope you are able to find some peace and clarity -- whatever you eventually decide to accept as "the truth."

Cat

 

it's not that I'm unhappy, but there is this thing in my life that gives me pain when I think about it, when I see how my kids have turned their backs on God, when I see how all of this has affected my kids. That is what makes my heart heavy. Seeing that.

 

It must be the same for parents who grow up and desert God forever. It doesn't ruin their lives (the parents) or keep them in a never ending state of sadness, but it's something that makes their hearts heavy when they think about it.

 

I'm going through this more now as the holidays approach.

[Trish]

I don't know that it's any easier to believe that there is no God, and therefore suffering in this life is meaningless, than it is to believe that there IS a God who loves us and whose plan for us will become apparent eventually.

 

Our Creator is a God of the broken, and broken-hearted. The proud, the confident, the self-sufficient (in a spiritual sense) don't need Him.