A can of worms about soul - enter at your own risk

[Ester Maria]

(While checking some of the documents on the computer and getting rid of all the useless ones that I open, scribble something and then forget about, I noticed an old outline of a possible thread which I in the end never posted, who knows why. It sounded interesting enough to actually post it now.)

 

There is a particular line in religious thought which claims full life - a body and a soul - to begin with the "moment of conception" - if there is such a thing, as we shall see later; many of the pro-life views are also based on the idea that a new soul lives from the moment a new body is concieved. Here, we do NOT discuss abortion and let us NOT go there - I am interested only in discussing the conception/creation of the soul itself, not in any moral questions per se, as well as in how do you address these questions when you teach science to your children.

 

All of the quotes are taken from Steven Pinker's work The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature where the concept of the soul is addressed from the point of view of evolutionary psychology and biology. I am bringing up these considerations for the sake of discussion rather than to try to "prove" anything to anyone (not to mention I don't have a high-level science knowledge needed to seriously prove or disprove any of those issues). I am interested, specifically, in (i) comments of people who do believe that a soul is created at conception as well as in how does your particular church or denomination reconcile scientific views with your religion and (ii) if you subscribe to the idea of the soul at birth, how do or would you handle these when teaching the relevant science topics to your children. Mainly in (ii), but (i) comments are welcome too.

The closest event we can find to a thunderclap marking the entry of a soul into the world is the moment of conception. At that instant a new human genome is determined, and we have an entity destined to develop into a unique individual.

[...]

But just as a microscope reveals that a straight edge is really ragged, research on human reproduction shows that the “moment of conception†is not a moment at all. Sometimes several sperm penetrate the outer membrane of the egg, and it takes time for the egg to eject the extra chromosomes. What and where is the soul during this interval? Even when a single sperm enters, its genes remain separate from those of the egg for a day or more, and it takes yet another day or so for the newly merged genome to control the cell. So the “moment†of conception is in fact a span of twenty-four to forty-eight hours. Nor is the conceptus destined to become a baby. Between two-thirds and three-quarters of them never implant in the uterus and are spontaneously aborted, some because they are genetically defective, others for no discernible reason.

[bold emphases are mine]

If the soul is created at "the moment of conception", where is the soul during that period if there are several sperms at some stages? Are there multiple souls only one of whom survives?

 

It becomes even more problematic, according to Pinker, in these scenarios:

But during the next few days, as the embryo's cells begin to divide, they can split into several embryos, which develop into identical twins, triplets, and so on. Do identical twins share a soul? Did the Dionne quintuplets make do with one-fifth of a soul each? If not, where did the four extra souls come from? Indeed, every cell in the growing embryo is capable, with the right manipulations, of becoming a new embryo that can grow into a child. Does a multicell embryo consist of one soul per cell, and if so, where do the other souls go when the cells lose that ability? And not only can one embryo become two people, but two embryos can become one person. Occasionally two fertilized eggs, which ordinarily would go on to become fraternal twins, merge into a single embryo that develops into a person who is a genetic chimera: some of her cells have one genome, others have another genome. Does her body house two souls?

This is one of the questions that has been bugging me for many years, ever since I encountered the concept of the cell division at school: while twins can be created from two independent sperms (i.e. dizygotic twins), they may also come into existence from a single original embryo that divided itself (as discussed here, monozygotic twins). If the soul is created at the moment of conception, how is that compatible with twins? Are their souls "split"? How do you, if you are religious and believe in a soul at conception (as opposed to, say a soul at birth), explain these issues to your children when you teach cell division and the beginning of life?

 

So, first and foremost I'm interested in the didactic aspect, and only then in the general reconciling - or not - of these ideas with your particular denomination or religion.

 

:bigear:

[Lolly]

Didn't think I would touch this one with a ten foot pole! But, honestly, I don't think it matters. I simply don't worry about it. There is no way we can know when a soul enters into the equation. Morally speaking I believe that it is very early. So early that there is no way to know you are pregnant at that point. I know my babies all had different personalities from early on in the pregnancy. Those personalities continued to be the same after birth. In the case of monozygotic twins, perhaps there are multiple souls in the equation and that is what causes the split? (Just tossing that out there for you to chew on.) My religious belief is that there are some things out there that we do not understand. We must make some of the most difficult choices based on faith. I tend to teach my children the biologically known facts, then I tell them how I believe. After that, they must formulate their own beliefs.

[babysparkler]

Didn't think I would touch this one with a ten foot pole! But, honestly, I don't think it matters. I simply don't worry about it. There is no way we can know when a soul enters into the equation. Morally speaking I believe that it is very early. So early that there is no way to know you are pregnant at that point. I know my babies all had different personalities from early on in the pregnancy. Those personalities continued to be the same after birth. In the case of monozygotic twins, perhaps there are multiple souls in the equation and that is what causes the split? (Just tossing that out there for you to chew on.) My religious belief is that there are some things out there that we do not understand. We must make some of the most difficult choices based on faith. I tend to teach my children the biologically known facts, then I tell them how I believe. After that, they must formulate their own beliefs.

:iagree: Well said :). Good thought (in bold).

Edited November 28, 2010 by babysparkler

[Violet Crown]

Interesting questions.

 

I don't see the soul as something "added" to the physical body; that seems to go too far into duallism. I would say the soul is the form of the body, and that being a living human being and having a body and a soul are two ways--biological and theological--of saying the exact same thing.

 

So I would bite the bullet on the issue of twinning, and say that, because something that is clearly a living human being (looking strictly from a biological point of view) has twinned and become two living human beings, this necessarily entails the soul (with the body, not as accompanying it, but as its form) also having gone from being a single human soul to being two human souls.

 

This doesn't solve the question of identity, of course; but I think the problem of identity in the case of twinning is the same for a strict materialist as for a religious believer with some stake in the existence of a soul.

 

That's the best I can do pre-coffee. :001_smile:

 

ETA: Oh, didactic aspect. We'd take on these issues at the high school level, as part of general questions of philosophy. Dh has done a fair amount of work on identity issues, so I leave it to him. But younger kids can get into identity questions, too. Have you taken a look at Gareth Matthews' work? He's very interested in discussing philosophy with young children, and he brings up the example of the Tin Woodman (of Oz), who had his limbs replaced in a series of unfortunate accidents, until he's eventually entirely tin. Even small children can get involved in the question of whether he's the same person he started as, and if not, when he became someone else. Etc.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Sharon in Austin

[cathmom]

As an identical twin myself, this question has always intrigued me. To the best of my knowledge, the Church takes no official position on this matter. Catholics are free to explore different theories.

 

We know that human life begins at conception. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states, “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception†(CCC 2270, emphasis added). In the case of identical twins, as in the case of singletons, conception (fertilization) occurs only once therefore, each twin’s soul must exist at their shared conception.

 

We also know that, for some time after fertilization, embryos have the ability to generate all the cells and tissues of more than one person. In his presentation concerning cloning, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, states, “The totipotentiality of a cell consists in its ability to generate all the cells and tissues of a complete organism, including (if satisfactory circumstances exist) the development of an individual. In the human, each embryonic cell remains totipotent for a few days after fertilization. Homozygous germination (the phenomenon of identical twins) is the result of an incidental embryonic fission of the totipotent cells that make up the embryo in the first stages of its development†(footnote 8).

 

Science is presently unable to explain why “embryonic fission†(the division of an embryo resulting in identical twin embryos) occurs. It is important to consider both the cause itself as well as the timing of the cause. My identical twin brother, Jeff, and I propose the following theories:

 

1. At- or Pre-conception Factors: One or Two Souls May Exist at Conception

Due to presently unknown genetic or environmental factors existing prior to or at conception, the zygote (fertilized egg) is destined for embryonic fission. Therefore, when conception occurs, one of two things happens: (a) two souls exist within a single zygote, one for each embryo at embryonic fission; or (b) one soul exists, destined for “soul fission†(the division of a soul resulting in identical twin souls) - a new soul cannot come into play, as each embryo’s soul must have existed since conception, and each was conceived only once and at the same time.

 

2. Post-conception Factors: One Soul Exists at Conception

In this case the zygote is no different at conception than that of a singleton’s zygote because factors causing embryonic fission do not yet exist. Therefore, only one soul must exist. Later, presently unknown environmental factors cause embryonic fission and, as with theory 1(b) above, soul fission must occur.

 

(continued...)

__________________

 

 

(...continued)

 

In these first two theories, presently unknown genetic or environmental factors are the cause of embryonic fission. Whether these factors occur (1) prior to or at conception or (2) after conception is important. If they occur prior to or at conception then the zygote is destined for embryonic fission from the start so it is possible that either one or two souls exist at conception. On the other hand, if factors causing embryonic fission do not exist until after conception then the zygote is no different at conception than that of a normal singleton zygote so only one soul, later becoming two, must exist.

 

In our third theory, embryonic fission relies on neither genetic nor environmental factors but, rather, divine intervention.

 

3. Supernatural Factors: One or Two Souls May Exist at Conception

For reasons unknown, one of two things happens: (a) one soul exists at conception but divine intervention later causes soul fission to occur which, in turn, causes embryonic fission; or (b) divine intervention at conception causes two souls to exist within one zygote and the very existence of two souls causes embryonic fission. In either case, identical twins are a miracle.

__________________

 

 

Here is the link for those answers: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=16880

 

Apparently the Catholic Church does not have an official position on when twins receive their souls. As the mother of identical twins, I pretty much viscerally reject the notion of one soul divided into two. They are two separate people; God knew that they would both be; He certainly would have provided each of them with a soul - their OWN soul - ; and so I believe that both souls existed at the time of conception. Whether or not the existence of both souls caused the embryo to split is an intriguing question that I had never considered before.

[The Girls' Mom]

I tend to think of it in less automated terms. The conception of life and soul isn't left up to chance, and the mechanics of it weren't set in motion at the beginning and left to run on it's own. God has His hand in each conception (Psa. 139:13, 16, Jer. 1:5) So, He knows which sperm will fertlize, and which zygote will split. He can knit together the soul and the body at any point, and apparently it's not for us to know exactly when. I believe sanctity of life begins at the moment of the act itself. There is no way for us to predict what God has intended to come of that union.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Apryl H
no caffiene...can't spell yet.

[MamaT]

Didn't think I would touch this one with a ten foot pole! But, honestly, I don't think it matters. I simply don't worry about it. There is no way we can know when a soul enters into the equation. Morally speaking I believe that it is very early. So early that there is no way to know you are pregnant at that point. I know my babies all had different personalities from early on in the pregnancy. Those personalities continued to be the same after birth. In the case of monozygotic twins, perhaps there are multiple souls in the equation and that is what causes the split? (Just tossing that out there for you to chew on.) My religious belief is that there are some things out there that we do not understand. We must make some of the most difficult choices based on faith. I tend to teach my children the biologically known facts, then I tell them how I believe. After that, they must formulate their own beliefs.

 

:iagree: This is what I would have written, but probably not as well!

[Ester Maria]

Wow, thank you all for your replies. :)

 

Cathmom, this is really interesting! I actually looked into the Catholic position on twins, but I couldn't find anything official either. The idea of the embryo splitting in the first place because of the presence of two souls is an option I didn't even consider, a sort of opposite way of thinking, but I do see how it could make a lot of sense in a religious context.

 

Sharon, the issue of limbs replaced you mention is interesting too. I discussed this with my children once, but I guess my instinctive materialistic approach is that what we call soul is essentially only a mind, which is generated by the brain, i.e. I don't believe in minds not generated by brains (therefore, the death of a brain - as a physical thing -> no more mind/soul/etc.). But religiously, the question of replacing limbs is a bit more complicated. The Jewish thought differentiates between five (I think) parts of the soul, three of which are said to explicitly exist on a material level in the body - blood, heart and brain. Blood is very problematic for that reason, since "the blood is the soul" - that's one of the reasons why all blood must be drained from kosher meat, for example, in order not to influence your soul, etc. So when discussing the issue of replacing limbs - especially heart - we really couldn't reach a conclusion whether the person remains the same.

 

(By the way, what are the Christian views regarding the position of the soul in the body? I know some replace dualism, but how are the verses like the one about blood and soul explained then?)

 

Interesting views, everyone. Thanks for participating. :)

[Danestress]

1. The soul is somehow generated by parents along side physical generation.

 

2. The soul "enters" the physical body at some point - at conception perhaps, though theologians have identified other points (Thomas Aquinas, for example).

 

3. God created souls at the foundations of the world and sort of distributes them through time from some great assembly of souls.

 

I am not sure, but I think most people who are strong adherents of the "from conception" point of view are not so much saying that they are sure that there is this "moment" when a soul enters the body. I have never really heard anyone take that position, though I do try to avoid those conversations in real life and may miss out on what others think.

 

I think the "from conception" proponents are more adherents to the idea that from the moment that one can identify something as having human life, it must be honored. Therefore, a sperm isn't really a person, and an egg isn't really a person, but when they join, they are pretty close to 'personhood' and should be honored as such regardless of whether a soul is generated physically along side, is distributed from some great soul warehouse in heaven, or is created by God at a particular moment.

 

So I think that while someone with this view might well understand that it's a process and not a moment, that there might be two lives formed out of that egg/sperm combo etc, they would say that we can see the beginnings of separate life and destiny in that combo and have to honor it as such.

 

I do not teach my children that souls are present "from conception" because I try to avoid teaching them things that I can not really know. No one can really know this, can they? But I would certainly teach my children that human life, with soul, without soul, is cherished and honored. I supposed I could teach them that every sperm and egg is of value and that they can not do anything to waste sperm, making birth control and self pleasure verboten, but I don't really believe that. The best I can teach (as my opinion, to my children, not a fact) is that from conception, we have something close enough to "life" that it should be honored and protected.

 

Obviously I am not the person to whom you have really solicited input, but I responded anyway:)

[katemary63]

The conception of a human life involves the actions of three beings: man, woman, and God. I think He can easily handle all the complications involved in a perfect way. Exactly how He does it is a question to ask Him when we see Him. :001_smile:

 

Jeremiah 1:5 5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart

and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”

 

Psalm 139: 13-16 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body

and knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!

Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.

15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,

as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.

16 You saw me before I was born.

Every day of my life was recorded in your book.

Every moment was laid out

before a single day had passed.

Edited November 28, 2010 by katemary63

[Nakia]

I tend to think of it in less automated terms. The conception of life and soul isn't left up to chance, and the mechanics of it weren't set in motion at the beginning and left to run on it's own. God has His hand in each conception (Psa. 139:13, 16, Jer. 1:5) So, He knows which sperm will fertlize, and which zygote will split. He can knit together the soul and the body at any point, and apparently it's not for us to know exactly when. I believe sanctity of life begins at the moment of the act itself. There is no way for us to predict what God has intended to come of that union.

 

Beautifully stated.

[cathmom]

Wow, thank you all for your replies. :)

 

Cathmom, this is really interesting! I actually looked into the Catholic position on twins, but I couldn't find anything official either. The idea of the embryo splitting in the first place because of the presence of two souls is an option I didn't even consider, a sort of opposite way of thinking, but I do see how it could make a lot of sense in a religious context.

 

 

 

Actually, it really makes sense to me, because I remember saying to my dh shortly after the twins were born, "OK, the embryo split, but WHY?"

 

Of course my dh's answer was "super sperm." :lol:

[Violet Crown]

(By the way, what are the Christian views regarding the position of the soul in the body? I know some replace dualism, but how are the verses like the one about blood and soul explained then?)

 

Interesting views, everyone. Thanks for participating. :)

Quick response to this, as I must get off to Mass.;) The Catholic view, as I understand it at any rate (and I'm no student of theology, and I'm already getting close to the limits of my own theological comprehension here), is that position isn't a useful way to think of soul; it's of the body, but not in it except in the common metaphorical sense of in. St. Augustine had better things to say about this in Of the Greatness of the Soul. But the soul, not being material or having extension, doesn't have a position.

 

I'll try to get off a better response to your other points later, though this being the first day of Advent, I've got a dozen things I'm supposed to be doing right now involving crafts which are my bane. But I wanted to say that the Pinker quotes you give tell me he's thinking in altogether the wrong terms, at least from a Catholic POV, about the soul. Though the soul isn't the same as "identity," I think if you go through those quotes and replace "soul" with something like "individual human identity," you'll kind of get the idea of where he's amiss.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Sharon in Austin

[Britomart]

In the case of monozygotic twins, perhaps there are multiple souls in the equation and that is what causes the split?

 

I have MZ twins, and this is honestly my favorite theory.

 

Of course, it's only a theory. I don't think we can know, and, from a didactic standpoint, I'm fine saying, "I don't know; here are some theories," and then exploring the pros and cons behind each.

 

There's so much in the world we don't understand and so much that we are (still!) incapable of observing directly. So we theorize. And we admit when we don't know the answer. And then we keep looking.

[asta]

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion -

 

If you consider what Sharon just wrote about soul v identity, and if you have ever read anything about identity disorders (sociopathy, for example), and then plug such into the concepts below...

 

You could come up with some interesting theories about why some people appear to have no conscience.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

1. The soul is somehow generated by parents along side physical generation.

 

2. The soul "enters" the physical body at some point - at conception perhaps, though theologians have identified other points (Thomas Aquinas, for example).

 

3. God created souls at the foundations of the world and sort of distributes them through time from some great assembly of souls.

 

[Impish]

The conception of a human life involves the actions of three beings: man, woman, and God. I think He can easily handle all the complications involved in a perfect way. Exactly how He does it is a question to ask Him when we see Him. :001_smile:

 

Jeremiah 1:5 5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart

and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.â€

 

Psalm 139: 13-16 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body

and knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!

Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.

15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,

as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.

16 You saw me before I was born.

Every day of my life was recorded in your book.

Every moment was laid out

before a single day had passed.

Exactly.

 

I think people get caught up in details, struggling to understand what seems inexplicable...but G-d is G-d. He knew it all before, and knows it all to come.

 

And, over the last few wks especially, I can't tell you how incredibly comforting, and just plain incredible I find that to be. :001_smile:

[OnTheBrink]

The conception of a human life involves the actions of three beings: man, woman, and God. I think He can easily handle all the complications involved in a perfect way. Exactly how He does it is a question to ask Him when we see Him. :001_smile:

 

Jeremiah 1:5 5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart

and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.â€

 

Psalm 139: 13-16 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body

and knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!

Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.

15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,

as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.

16 You saw me before I was born.

Every day of my life was recorded in your book.

Every moment was laid out

before a single day had passed.

 

:iagree:

[KatieH]

I'm prolife and Catholic. I believe that life begins at conception; I would assume ensoulment does as well. A soul is not a physical thing, so I don't really ponder the specifics of twinning and such, since it seems pretty irrelevant (since the soul is not physical, no division of it happens, so of course twins have individual souls and not one that split).

Edited November 29, 2010 by KatieH

[Onceuponatime]

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion -

 

If you consider what Sharon just wrote about soul v identity, and if you have ever read anything about identity disorders (sociopathy, for example), and then plug such into the concepts below...

 

You could come up with some interesting theories about why some people appear to have no conscience.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

This is a very interesting discussion, one that I have not really pondered. Thinking about it, I realized that I tend to believe in a fourth option: the evolution or lengthy developement of a soul in a human being from conception. In other words something like "soul potentiality" might exist just in the same way as life potentiality. Subject to its environment and other conditions, the soul develops along with the body, experiencing possible developemental handicaps, disabilities, or delays.There would come a point in each human's life in which the soul is as fully developed as it can be.

 

This does not negate God's role. Even though I think that our souls develop naturally, I believe that God is responsible for that ability to begin with. Plus, I believe he still knows us in our mother's wombs. Perhaps he even acts in some way, but that is impossible to ascertain.

 

Perhaps what we respect, when we say we respect life, is the "soul potentiality." After all, all living matter has "life," but it doesn't all have the same potential development into a human being with a soul.

 

Does this make any sense? I've probably made up a few words here to try to get my point across. :)

[mcconnellboys]

I believe that God has told us that he knew us before we were knit together in our mother's womb. So I tend to think of the soul as present from the moment of conception (or before).

 

Where does the soul come from?

 

I find the concept of reincarnation very interesting, because I feel that souls are immortal and that they have much more to learn than can possibly be accomplished in one lifetime. How that might work in terms of the concept of a Heaven/Hell is a totally different discussion, I guess, but I have known children with very "old" souls and older people who were still very immature (not because of senility).

 

I guess I should add that I don't view the soul as a created thing that comes of our DNA. I don't see it as a biological body system - at least not as we currently understand molecular biology. I believe the soul is perhaps created of plasma or another form of energy that we do not fully understand at this time in our history. I believe it is the spark of life; a gift given to humankind by God; the eternal part of us that joins with our mortal bodies in the womb....

Edited November 29, 2010 by mcconnellboys