Math: what do you consider a passing mark on a test or "good enough"

[plain jane]

I've posted so many threads about my dd's struggles with math, and I'm sorry to all of you.

 

One big issue we have are the sloppy mistakes she makes. We do timed math drills every day. 100 problems (rotating each day between add/sub/mult/div.- never mixed sheets) in 3min. She does great with these and I'm confident she knows her math facts. She does 1/2 of a mental math sheet from SM each day as well. Then we do our math lesson.

 

She'll get into working problems in her math book and there's random mistakes everywhere. All of a sudden 22-14=6. Just silly mistakes. I really don't think she doesn't understand but she's still not getting it right, kwim?

 

I don't know what to do. She scores 80% or better on a test but I'm wondering if 80% is good enough. Is it? It's just so random what she'll get wrong sometimes and it's evident that it's careless mistakes, but they're wrong just the same, kwim? She can do so well on her mental math sheets some days and others I get stuff like 110-79= 51. :001_huh:

 

I do not expect 100% all the time; I think that's too much pressure. But, what is acceptable? Where do I draw the line between okay, she gets it but she's having an off moment (or got distracted) and, well, she's not taking the time to do well on these sheets or tests and needs to redo all the material.

 

I don't know what to do. I don't want to be too hard on her, but I don't want to let all these mistakes slide and become habits. I also dread that she doesn't actually know the stuff and I keep moving her on. I mean, I think she knows. One day she'll get 222-170 correct and the next she won't. Why?

 

Is there a way to motivate her to try better? Punishment for poor marks? Neither? Outsource math?

 

Ugh. I never thought this would be so hard (for me :tongue_smilie:) and it's only grade 4.

 

 

ETA: I do make her go back and do all corrections- I just don't allow the corrections to affect the original grade. If she got 80% the first time then corrected everything, I still write down 80% in my grade book. I do make sure she can do the questions she got wrong.

Edited November 25, 2010 by plain jane

[skueppers]

I haven't read your other threads, but is there any possibility that this work is too easy, or insufficiently interesting? Getting distracted and making careless mistakes can be a sign of boredom, in which case more challenging material might help.

 

How is she at math that's not just arithmetic and procedures? How does she do on word problems? What about logic puzzles and strategy games?

[Crimson Wife]

There was a recent thread on the subject with some great advice.

[Aludlam]

Well, I was faced with this same question today. I decided on 90%. I prefer 100%. She scored a 91 today. I marked the wrong problems, handed it back to her and she fixed them in like 10 seconds. We got out of sync this morning b/c a Curious George movie came on PBS. :glare: There have been many times I have handed sheets back and said that X number of problems are wrong, find them and fix them. I worry that if I let her go with 80%, then there is 20% she didn't master. 20% + 20% + 20% + 20% = the education I received in ps.

[Hedgehog]

I guess I'm a meany.. if my DDs get less than 80% on any Lesson, Fact Test or regular Test, they have to do the whole thing again. This works in two ways: they get extra practice, which they clearly need; and they dislike having to re-do anything, so the threat of it is a good deterrent. I've found that they've both become much better at checking their work through once they've finished it. Any mistakes made must be corrected (this applies to all subjects).

 

Tbh it's been a long time since either of them got less than 80%. As they've gone along, they've kind of developed their own standard which they press to reach. It's been great to see them motivating themselves like this.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Hedgehog

[cindergretta]

In our house, all mistakes have to be corrected. You must score an 80% or better to move on, but all work has to be corrected.

 

Example:

 

Ds gets a 70% on his work. He corrects those mistakes and does another assignment with the same concept. On that one, he scores an 88%. He corrects his mistakes and moves on to the next concept/assignment.

[abbeyej]

My kids go back and correct all mistakes on tests and homework. It doesn't matter what the percentage is. I guess I would consider an 80% or below to be proof that a child doesn't know the material, and we'd take a step back and make sure they understand the current topics. But *any* missed problems must be re-worked. And if it's just an arithmetic mistake, I won't point that out -- it's up to the child to figure out why that problem was circled and correct it. (If they don't understand why the problem is wrong or how to fix it, naturally we'll go over it together.)

 

Is your daughter going back and correcting all of her careless mistakes on all of her work? I find this tends to cut down on the total number of that type of problem...

[RootAnn]

In our house, all mistakes have to be corrected. You must score an 80% or better to move on, but all work has to be corrected.

 

:iagree:

[FaithManor]

We work through all problems that were missed on the test so that they understood where they went wrong. k-8 I have required 88% in order to move into the next chapter or unit. If they have score mostly 95% and higher on the daily work, then I do not necessarily make them do the chapter test since I also give quarterly tests.

 

Faith

[razorbackmama]

If my children don't receive an A (for us that is 93%) they have to correct it, no matter what the subject. Then I take the 1st and 2nd grades and average them for their final grade. So say they are lazy and get only a 50% on the first test but then correct them all so they get a 100%. They'll only get a 75% for their final grade.

 

If it's something that I know they are struggling with, I'll camp out on that topic for a while. But if it's just dumb mistakes, they'll just have to live with the fact that they didn't get a good grade. (Not that any of my kids care much, but I keep hoping for one like me!:lol: )

[regentrude]

We don't do grades in math, except for one comprehensive Final at the end of the semester.

During the daily work, my children have to get every single problem correct. If they made a mistake, they have to rework the problem. I do not see any merit in allowing any percentage of wrong answers to go uncorrected (and assigning a bad grade)- that would not teach anything.

[Spy Car]

I would question if the time drills are masking a fundamental misunderstanding of the material with a veneer of competence (most of the time).

 

I would spend some of the "drill time" differently. Instead of seeing how fast she can whip through the math facts, slow down and have her explain her reasoning and her strategies for solving the problem. Then you see if it is just rote memory, or if she understands what she is doing.

 

Bill

[plain jane]

I would question if the time drills are masking a fundamental misunderstanding of the material with a veneer of competence (most of the time).

 

I would spend some of the "drill time" differently. Instead of seeing how fast she can whip through the math facts, slow down and have her explain her reasoning and her strategies for solving the problem. Then you see if it is just rote memory, or if she understands what she is doing.

 

Bill

 

That's a good thought, thank you. :) I had hoped that by incorporating a daily mental math sheet (out of the SM HIGs) that I'd be able to circumvent just rote memorization of math facts. I do have her explain her strategies for solving the mental math but perhaps I will take a look at the drill sheets as well. Clearly something is not working- I just need to figure out what it is.

[Joyofsixreboot]

My son makes mistakes because he isn't neat and doesn't line things up, KWIM? I require a 90% to move on. If it's a silly mistake I will mark it wrong and let him rework it. He gets half credit for that. If he missed the concept he misses the question but of course we go over it.

[Paige]

We will not move on to the next section unless he gets 90% or more correct on the first try. Everything has to be corrected whether it is a test or a daily assignment but we don't move on until he scores well on the first try. My DS also makes silly mistakes from inattention but if he is making enough of them to score below 90%, IMO, that's a problem. I will have him go back and spend some more time on whatever is causing him problems, and then I'll give a test on that subject only if it is clear that everything else is mastered, or I'll give him a test of everything in the chapter if he missed problems all over the place. It's a pain to do that, however, because I won't just give him the same test as before and have to come up with the problems myself but that has only happened once. I also don't test him until I'm confident that he is ready for it. If we've done all the assignments for a certain chapter but I still see him struggling or making a lot of mistakes, we'll do extra work on our own until I think he will be ready for the chapter test. I find he makes the most mistakes from not reading the directions- in all subjects!

 

I think speed drills are good once they can explain the concepts well. Math is a lot easier if you aren't having to do every calculation as if it were new.

[debbielong]

To me, this is a skill vs. will question. Is it that she CAN'T do better or that she WON'T do better? My teaching approach is different, depending on the cause of the problem.

 

Spy Car, as usual, offers excellent advice - have her explain her thinking on drills.

 

I approached a similar situation with my oldest child from a different angle. I strongly suspected his silly errors were carelessness and laziness. So, one time I offered him an outrageous sum of money (I think it was $20) for a perfect math test. It worked - my assumption was correct. So, he and I both knew, going forward, that he was perfectly capable of excellent work. I never paid him for his work again - I simply expected excellence (not perfection, btw).

 

Now, every child is different. I would have never taken a similar approach with my daughter, because she would have figured out my manipulation and would have thrown the test on purpose to prove she couldn't get a perfect score:). And I would never use such a tactic with my youngest, as it would give him paralyzing anxiety. But, for each child, I've tried to come up with tools that will tell me if a problem is "can't" or a problem is "won't."

 

It is extremely difficult to differentiate between skill and will. You may get it wrong, but you'll probably get it wrong less often than a teacher with 24 other students:).

 

As an aside, I believe one of the most compelling reasons for homeschooling in the grammar years is the limited ability of a classroom teacher to diagnose skill vs. will. Kids who actually "can't" but who are expected to perform at the level of their counterparts become defeated. But, to me, just as debilitating is the soft bigotry of low expectations for those who actually "can" produce excellent work but "won't" and/or don't have to.

[Rebecca VA]

I require a 90% or better on tests before we move on. I've found that my student will work up to my expectations and then slack off. If I required an 80% or better, she'd work in the 80-90 range. Since I require a 90% or better, she works in the 90-100 range.

 

I don't consider my expectations unreasonable at all -- she's a student who never studies, so I know she's not struggling. If I had a student who honestly struggled to get good marks, I would be more lenient.

[razorbackmama]

I require a 90% or better on tests before we move on. I've found that my student will work up to my expectations and then slack off. If I required an 80% or better, she'd work in the 80-90 range. Since I require a 90% or better, she works in the 90-100 range.

 

I don't consider my expectations unreasonable at all -- she's a student who never studies, so I know she's not struggling. If I had a student who honestly struggled to get good marks, I would be more lenient.

:iagree:

 

Plus, if the student doesn't make a 90%, they have not mastered it enough to move on, IMO.

[KarenNC]

I'm trying something new with my 10yo. She primarily loses points for not including the units and failing to properly reduce fractions, though failing to read the directions and actually answer the question asked has figured in. She is already required to redo any problems she misses. It is not a problem of not being challenged--she is working in Saxon 7/6. Her test average is 92 and her problem set average is 89 (we've done 7 tests, 43 lessons), but with some pretty dramaticly poor scores from carelessness.

 

Today I made a graph of her test scores and one of her problem set scores (we are using Saxon). I colored in 95-100 as rainbow="best," 90-94 as green= "good," 85-99 as blue="acceptable, extra homework may be assigned," 80-84 as orange = "warning, extra homework will be assigned," and under 80 as red = "unacceptable, extra homework will be assigned and entire assignment must be done over." I did label them as well as color. I am considering doing a graph of her fact test scores as well to show her the progress (she is a pretty visually-oriented child). We'll see how this works.

 

After reading the other thread, I am considering offering a carrot if she brings her scores consistently in to the good or best range on problem sets for a while by trying the "if you get half of the problem set correct you don't have to do the rest," but it will hinge on continued score in the 90+ range.

Edited November 26, 2010 by KarenNC

[lisabelle]

I swore it would be 85%. But ds took a chapter quiz on Tuesday and got 82%. The mistakes were careless, I know he knows the material. So I'm chalking it up to a holiday week and the first snow of the season.

[Amy loves Bud]

Everyone is an "A" student here. Everything missed gets corrected. If they don't have 90% or better we camp out on the topic until they do. That's the beauty of homeschooing. We don't have to hurry along to meet some arbitrary deadline, and in my experience requiring a high level of mastery early on makes achieving that level of mastery much easier at the next step.