Can you help me choose a chemistry course?

[Rain]

I'm new to the board (as you can see, I still have less than 10 posts) but would like some input into chemistry for dd. First to give you a bit of background --

 

14 yo, summer birthday so we're designating her 8th grade this year, loves science and math, has hsed all her life. We were using AoPS but just dropped Alg 2 online class because it moved too fast, and dd wanted a course that gave more practice problems after each concept so she could choose what to do more when she needed more. We just switched to Math U See geometry and so far she's liking it.

 

She wants to be an engineer or doctor and had for several years been aiming for CalTech but now that I'm pregnant she's thinking something she can commute to from home so she can stay with her sister longer. That would mean cc (we have excellent cc's) and then 2 years at either Ariz State or Univ of Ariz. That's still 4 years off though so we'd still like a solid college prep education in case she changes her mind again.

 

She's done Alg 1 and Counting and Probability through AoPS and we've done lots of extra math topics. She's been begging to do chemistry for a few years now, and has been begging for a chemistry kit for more years. I could never find a good middle school chem though so we haven't done anything. We did Rainbow science and she *loved* the chemistry part of it.

 

Textbooks are fine as long as they don't use overly stilted and academic language. She feels that in all things, understanding is more important than just memorizing so she'll need something that she can understand the whys behind the material. She loves to solve practical problems and loves to build things. Whatever we use will need to not only have a good lab component, but one that she can further experiment with and design more labs from.

 

So this is what I've been looking at so far, with my (initial) thoughts on each --

 

Spectrum Chemistry

 

I don't know that the reading will be enough material for her, though we don't want masses of reading either. Dd said she's kinda burned out on The Rainbow so I don't know if she'd like Spectrum. Also, since their chemicals come all pre-measured I'm worried that she won't be able to explore. She likes to do experiments 2 or 3 times so she can do them herself, show me, and then show dad when he comes home. She also likes to make modifications to see if this or that hypothesis works.

 

Living by Chemistry

 

Text looks good. We'd add in Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments: All Lab No Lecture (which is what I'd do with all these programs, except Spectrum). BUT the teacher's manual is $299! :ack2:

 

Apologia Chemistry

 

We're not Christian, but I don't have a problem using a Christian text as long as the material is solid. I've NEVER seen an apologia high school science book though. Is there color? Dd needs color. I wish I could preview this somehow but no one I know uses apologia for high school. Actually, I don't know any hsers who are older than dd. I've read good things about the prep that students receive by doing both Chem and Adv Chem with Apologia, that their conceptual understanding is good, so I'm leaning this way. She'd most likely want 2 years anyways of chemistry.

 

 

MIT Open Courseware

 

Just the name MIT strikes fear of dry, dull lectures into my heart. I've never used MIT .... what Chem would we start with?

 

Conceptual Chemistry

 

I think dd would want more than concepts, though maybe it would be a good first year program?

 

Any thoughts? Recommendations?

 

Help is appreciated.

[Chris in VA]

Ds did Apologia Chem (just the first one). It was a good introduction to chem for him, not too heavy on the math, with clear explanations of balancing equations and doing the conversions. The experiments were quite basic, but that was all right with us. He successfully completed what will be his only chem course.

If I were looking for something rigorous, I would not use Apologia, but for a solid intro, and for a child who perhaps wasn't that strong in math, I think it's a good way to go. The textbook itself is written to the student, has plenty of review, is attractive, and contains study guides that help the student prepare for tests. My one beef is that the labs are basic, as I said, and I don't think the lab write-ups are high school level--but that can be supplemented.

[Kareni]

I've been able to preview many textbooks by requesting them from my library through inter-library loan. You might ask at your library if that is a possibility for you.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Corraleno]

If she'll be doing chemistry again at a higher level, then Conceptual Chemistry would be a great intro. The text was written for non-majors college courses, although it's also used in high schools. There are free lectures for the first 12 chapters on the author's website.

 

If she's thinking of a career in medicine or engineering, I would also recommend moving away from MUS when she's finished with Geometry. MUS is a pretty huge step down from AoPS; she's basically gone from the most rigorous, conceptual end of the math spectrum to the opposite, ultra-lite end. Is she still working through the AoPS Alg II text on her own, while doing MUS Geometry, or has she dropped Alg II for now?

 

Jackie

[Rain]

She's totally dropped AoPS for now. She doesn't like the presentation and had gotten to the point where she hated math where she had previously loved it. I'd rather have her love math and be excited about it and have a very firm base than have her hate it and never want to look at it again, kwim? I'm sure she'll ask to start supplementing in a few months, but for right now we just needed to step way back so she could enjoy it again.

 

Within two days of starting MUS, she picked up 10 Things All Scientists Should Know and are Rarely Taught and read that for 2 hours, plus some other math reading that we have in the house. She's already done AoPS Alg 1 and Kinetics Alg concurrently, done Counting & Probability, and I'm sure will finish Geometry well ahead of schedule this year (she's done 4 lessons in 3 days, and from looking at the TOC it will be all review until we get to about, oh, lesson 22 and start proofs). That will still leave all of 9-12th grade for higher math, so I think we're good for now. I also have Joy of Mathematics from The Teaching Co so we'll probably start that a bit later this year.

[Nissi]

I am looking into the Honors Chemistry course offered by Peter Moskaluk at http://www.chemadvantage.com for one of my children.

HTH!

[April in CA]

Hello! Last year, my ds used the DIVE chemistry program with both the Apologia texts very successfully. Since he enjoyed it and did so well, this year he is studying AP chemistry with Peter Moskaluk. We found him through PA Homeschoolers. My son is thriving with the challenge and doing very well. Hopefully that will translate into a high AP score. He is even thinking about chemical engineering as a career now! I would NOT put a child straight into AP chemistry, but she might find the honors chemistry to be the right level of challenge and delight. And I am sure she would learn enough to make that wonderful lab book fun rather than over her head. Blessings as you search for the right resources for your daughter!

April

[Nissi]

Yes, I agree with April about AP Chem. with Moskaluk. Though it is a very challenging course after doing the the first Apologia text, ds. has decided he really likes Chemistry now. He didn't care for the subject when doing Apologia for some reason.

[Rain]

dd is already asking to do 2 years of chem, so as long as we don't turn her off with our first year choice we'll do an AP course later.

 

After more questioning, dd says she wants a course that's doesn't have a lot of extra stuff, just chemistry (I think she means not overly chatty?), wants a solid base so she can do well later, too ,and wants something that's written to her age. When I asked for clarification on that she said she doesn't want something too young, but high school or early college. She doesn't want something dry and written for an adult though either.

 

She wants something that will let her do real labs, not baking soda and vinegar or cabbage juice. She wants something has problems to solve, not just purely concepts. By problems she doesn't mean end of chapter balancing equations, she means she wants problems like, "here's the scenario. what do we need to consider to solve it? what are our options? what can we try?"

 

I don't know if chemistry books like this exist. I go back and forth on Apologia because I see such great reviews on the website but I also know it's easy to cherry pick.

 

She has about 2 lessons left in Rainbow after testing out of the last half of Blue and most of Applications. Right now she's doing an oceans study that we're doing on our own but I don't think I can stall her until next fall for chemistry, and I don't really want to anyways. I have a little bit of time what with Christmas coming up, but will probably need to decide on something for January.

[HollyDay]

I too am struggling with which chemistry to use next year.

 

Apologia is the favorite locally, but I personally do not care for the high school texts. Dd finds their "chatty" style distracting.

 

BJU is very popular with local families who have a dc heading toward a science, engineering, or medical future. But, I do think BJU is ambitious to teach without the dvd or some other technical support which runs up the price. I heard at our local summer meeting that Apologia assumes there is no teacher and BJU assumes the teacher has a science degree.

 

I know a few families in our local group who are pleased with Abeka, but I have never seen this text so I cannot give any comment on it.

 

SOS from AOP is another program that pops up occasionally at local meetings. The convenience and ease of use is the most common comment I've heard about it.

 

If I had to chose right now, this week, our chemistry course, I would get Spectrum. I like that it is experiment driven and homeschool friendly. But, I want to attend a major convention this summer so I can see some of these choices up front. Chemistry is not an inexpensive course. I want to make the best choice and that is hard to do using only online samples......

[Guest]

We are using Living By Chemistry this year for dd, who will also take advanced chemistry at some point. I really like the book so far; it has a clarity of explanation I haven't found anywhere else. The chapters are VERY short, but conceptually sophisticated. The end-of-chapter questions have so far not involved balancing equations (dd does this with dh during labs); they present the student with a molecule or formula she has not yet encountered and ask, knowing what you have just read, what can you predict about this (in terms of bonding patterns, smell, or any one of a number of elements the book has discussed)? What would you expect from this scenario?

 

The book is really new and there are no packaged labs to accompany it, so you need, as you have discovered, a lab manual or series of experiments. We are using Thames and Kosmos 3000, which dh, a chemistry professor, modifies liberally and supplements with his own equipment. I wouldn't have been able to do the labs without him. I also bought the student manual by Robert Thompson, and would have gone that route entirely but for the fact that the first-year kit they used to sell to go with the manual has gone out of production and I didn't feel up to buying everything separately.

[Brenda in MA]

I am using Spectrum Chem this year with my 14 yo. We both really like the course a lot. The conversation style of the text is similar to Rainbow (which we also liked). The labs have been varied and interesting. The kit does come with just enough chemicals to do each experiment once, so your dd wouldn't have the chance to repeat things and change them a little. I have been happy so far with how the lab book explains things.

 

I used Apologia Chem with my older son, and we really did not like it. The "chattiness" of the text was really bothersome to my son. There were also many places where the author would say something like, "We won't explain this concept further because it's too advanced for this book." That drove my son batty. The labs were very simple, of the baking soda & vinegar caliber. I think the author went a bit too far in trying to make the labs doable without a lot of fancy materials and specialty chemicals.

 

One other option you might want to consider for her science after she finishes Rainbow is what we did last year -- Conceptual Physics by Paul Hewitt (you'd want the high school version, 3rd edition, not the college version). This is a high school level course that uses only algebra (as opposed to Trig, which is used in most high school physics courses). As the title suggests, the book is heavy on the concepts. It does require the use of some math, but it's not overwhelming.

 

My son loved, loved, loved this book. It was probably his favorite science course in all of our homeschooling. The text is very readable, and the author explains things incredibly clearly. He also explains the physics of a lot of ordinary things. Understanding the conceptual aspects of physics has helped my son with Chemistry this year. He will take a more math-heavy physics in a couple of years.

 

Best wishes and I hope you find a program that fits your dd well.

Brenda

[Rain]

The kit does come with just enough chemicals to do each experiment once, so your dd wouldn't have the chance to repeat things and change them a little. I have been happy so far with how the lab book explains things.

 

So this wouldn't work for. Even if she didn't change things, she likes to do experiments more than once, especially chemistry.

 

There were also many places where the author would say something like, "We won't explain this concept further because it's too advanced for this book." That drove my son batty. The labs were very simple, of the baking soda & vinegar caliber.

 

This will absolutely not work then. Having something say "this is too advanced for you right now" would make dd crazy. And she definitely wouldn't want baking soda & vinegar type labs. Even if we added another lab book to it, just the fact that those labs are in there would make her feel like the book is treating her like a baby (believe me, I know my dd).

 

One other option you might want to consider for her science after she finishes Rainbow is what we did last year -- Conceptual Physics by Paul Hewitt (you'd want the high school version, 3rd edition, not the college version). This is a high school level course that uses only algebra (as opposed to Trig, which is used in most high school physics courses). As the title suggests, the book is heavy on the concepts. It does require the use of some math, but it's not overwhelming.

 

I think I would have a mutiny on my hands if I didn't let her do chem next, BUT I've been reading on these boards about doing chem/phys/bio simultaneously so we very well might do this, doing both chem and phys at the same time.

 

 

We are using Living By Chemistry this year for dd, who will also take advanced chemistry at some point. I really like the book so far; it has a clarity of explanation I haven't found anywhere else. The chapters are VERY short, but conceptually sophisticated. The end-of-chapter questions have so far not involved balancing equations (dd does this with dh during labs); they present the student with a molecule or formula she has not yet encountered and ask, knowing what you have just read, what can you predict about this (in terms of bonding patterns, smell, or any one of a number of elements the book has discussed)? What would you expect from this scenario?

 

This sounds good. I saw on the website the Teacher's Manual is $299 and that's what's scaring me away. Did you not get the TM? Or if you did, did you get it for a cheaper price? From previewing the text online, it looked like the student text isn't stand-alone, that it 'reinforces' what was gone over in class, so I'm assuming the TM is necessary. Have you found this?

 

I also found Singapore Chem/Bio/Physics and was looking at those, but there are *very* few reviews online for them, mostly just those that have previewed the program but not actually used it.

 

Thanks for everyone's input :) It definitely is helping me narrow down the choices.

[Guest]

 

This sounds good. I saw on the website the Teacher's Manual is $299 and that's what's scaring me away. Did you not get the TM? Or if you did, did you get it for a cheaper price? From previewing the text online, it looked like the student text isn't stand-alone, that it 'reinforces' what was gone over in class, so I'm assuming the TM is necessary. Have you found this?

 

I did not get the teacher's manual. The book is very, very understandable for dd, at any rate, and she is going through it mostly on her own. There are a few card games and activities (I found the materials for the first one on-line for free) as well as a test for the first unit and some quizzes (which we use through discussion).

 

It's a thin program like this, but dh is a chemistry professor and is handling all other aspects for me this year (hurrah). If it were just me, I'd go ahead and spring for the manual on the basis that I have used things from the Lawrence Hall of Science people (who worked on the book along with scientists and educators at UC Berkeley) and from Key Press before, quite extensively, and they do a very good job and really suit dd's and my learning style/abilities (not to mention that I wouldn't have a clue about what else to do with the book myself).

 

Have you looked on-line for a used copy? The program is very new, so it's an iffy thing, but definitely worth a quick scrounge just in case.

[Storm Bay]

Conceptual Chemistry

 

I think dd would want more than concepts, though maybe it would be a good first year program?

 

Any thoughts? Recommendations?

 

Help is appreciated.

 

If she'll be doing chemistry again at a higher level, then Conceptual Chemistry would be a great intro. The text was written for non-majors college courses, although it's also used in high schools. There are free lectures for the first 12 chapters on the author's website.

 

If she's thinking of a career in medicine or engineering, I would also recommend moving away from MUS when she's finished with Geometry. MUS is a pretty huge step down from AoPS; she's basically gone from the most rigorous, conceptual end of the math spectrum to the opposite, ultra-lite end. Is she still working through the AoPS Alg II text on her own, while doing MUS Geometry, or has she dropped Alg II for now?

 

Jackie

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Understanding Chem ought to come first, IMO, rather than memorizing, Conceptual Chem is a great place to start. The lectures are great and there's nothing stilted or overly academic about the lectures. My dd loved it, and she plans to major in math and/or biochem. She wants to take AP Chem next year or else her senior year, depending on if the local ps has enough students to fill the class. Otherwise, she'll have to take it at the CC. My dd did do a bit of math with it with her labs, which were from MicroChem. Dd excels in math, so I'm not worried about her catching up on the math in Chem.

 

I agree with switching the math. We like it in the earlier years, but used it as a second math, because as much as we enjoy Mr. Demme and the way he teaches, it doesn't have the rigour I would want for any dc planning to go into medicine. Getting into med school is highly competitive and, once there, it's going to be a lot of hard work. However, if you choose to use MUS along with something else, then I'd stick with it.

[Rain]

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Understanding Chem ought to come first, IMO, rather than memorizing, Conceptual Chem is a great place to start. The lectures are great and there's nothing stilted or overly academic about the lectures. My dd loved it, and she plans to major in math and/or biochem. She wants to take AP Chem next year or else her senior year, depending on if the local ps has enough students to fill the class. Otherwise, she'll have to take it at the CC. My dd did do a bit of math with it with her labs, which were from MicroChem. Dd excels in math, so I'm not worried about her catching up on the math in Chem.

 

OK, so I've narrowed it down then between Singapore and Conceptual Chem.

 

 

 

I agree with switching the math. We like it in the earlier years, but used it as a second math, because as much as we enjoy Mr. Demme and the way he teaches, it doesn't have the rigour I would want for any dc planning to go into medicine. Getting into med school is highly competitive and, once there, it's going to be a lot of hard work. However, if you choose to use MUS along with something else, then I'd stick with it.

 

 

I very well may change over next year for math. Dh and I have been actively trying to discourage dd from going into medicine because I'm an RN (currently working) and I know what the drs are expected to do. I've also spoken to MANY of them who said if they'd known what it was going to really be like, they'd have never become drs. One has offered to let dd shadow him when she's older so she can see what the reality is -- the long hours, in particular, and how it's not conducive to family life (dd wants to homeschool her future children).

[Rain]

Just wanted to add a post to show what we've decided to do.

 

I'm still going back and forth between Singapore Chemistry Matters and Conceptual Chemistry, but I think I'm going to try to find a cheap copy of Conc Chem and see if it's what we're looking for.

 

After thinking further about math, though, we've decided that we're going to add Life of Fred. Dd is really liking Math U See and is excited about it, so I don't want to take that away from her. But I also think she'll really like Geometry and I want it to last longer than 3 months.

 

Thinking what we could add to it, we've used Dolciani for a few months which dd *hated* so I don't want to do a typical textbook program right now. AoPS is an absolute NO at this point :tongue_smilie: We used LoF for Decimals and Percents, and Fractions and she enjoyed it for that. When we got to Algebra though she got stuck, because it was all new concepts. She asked me to keep it though because she likes to read it for fun and for review.

 

So I think if we use MUS and LoF (both Geometry) concurrently that would work for her. Get the basics solid with MUS and get the more difficult things with LoF.

[creekland]

She wants to be an engineer or doctor and had for several years been aiming for CalTech but now that I'm pregnant she's thinking something she can commute to from home so she can stay with her sister longer. That would mean cc (we have excellent cc's) and then 2 years at either Ariz State or Univ of Ariz. That's still 4 years off though so we'd still like a solid college prep education in case she changes her mind again.

 

 

 

 

Addressing a different part of your post... as I'm researching pre-med for my own guy (a current junior) one thing I've come across is that top med schools do not like seeing community college courses for science... you'd need to plan on her doing those courses while at the 4 year school even if she started at cc. I haven't seen their reaction about cc in general for the first two years - just that they don't want to see science credits coming from there.

 

For Chemistry we've settled for Apologia but I'm not certain it's the top program out there. My guy has done the first book and is now working through the latest (updated) version of the 2nd with plans on taking the AP in the spring IF I can find a school that offers the test (ours doesn't). I agree that better labs would be nice...

 

To give Apologia a deserved plug, both my oldest (who only did the first book) and this guy regularly tutor their ps counterparts in Chem. That said, our ps isn't exactly spectacular (rather the opposite).

 

Oh, and we also have the Teaching Company Chem videos. They don't go along with Apologia chapter for chapter, but they make a nice additional bit of info to add.

[Rain]

If she does end up going to med school (which I really hope she doesn't) she'd most likely go to UofA in Tucson, which is our state school but has a very good med program. Something to think about, anyways, and as we get closer I'll definitely take a look at whether or not they're okay with our cc's for early science classes. I know ASU is fine with it, but I don't think ASU has a med program (or if they do it's not their specialty). ASU is known for their nursing and engineering programs.

 

Talking colleges though, UofA is a smaller college and doesn't have the party reputation, so as parents we prefer the smaller one. Dd wants to start college planning this year, so we'll start looking more closely at things like this soon. Thanks :)

[J-rap]

I'd like to second "Conceptual Chemistry." We're also using "Explorations in Conceptual Chemistry" by Jeffrey Paradis, which goes along with the Conceptual Chemistry text, for at-home experiments.

[Storm Bay]

OK, so I've narrowed it down then between Singapore and Conceptual Chem.

 

 

I very well may change over next year for math. Dh and I have been actively trying to discourage dd from going into medicine because I'm an RN (currently working) and I know what the drs are expected to do. I've also spoken to MANY of them who said if they'd known what it was going to really be like, they'd have never become drs. One has offered to let dd shadow him when she's older so she can see what the reality is -- the long hours, in particular, and how it's not conducive to family life (dd wants to homeschool her future children).

 

It's sad to see what's happening down here, isn't it:sad:? My sister is practising as a permanent locum, so she has no on call nights & is home when her dc get home from school, but that's in Canada. Times sure have changed! 32 years ago my dad's med school buddy emigrated to CA where he could work half the number of hours for the same amount of money he made in Canada, or work the same and made twice as much.

 

OTOH, we still need good doctors. I think shadowing a doctor for a day is a great idea, and another is working as a candy striper, which is something my sister did.

 

We're big fans of LoF here, although my dd did Algebra 1 with a 1965 Dolciani, and was doing Algebra 2 with Dolciani until I put her in ps. She did LoF Geometry, but I had her supplement with a traditional program. LoF has a lot of strengths, IMO.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Karin

[ks-sunflower]

We are using ChemAdvantage this year. Good labs. Well-structured and fast-paced. WebAssign problems are great and interaction with the student group and Mr. Moskulak are also helpful. Pretty thorough - hopefully good prep for the SAT 2 exam in the spring.