is this appropriate discipline?

[Halcyon]

My older has been increasingly hurtful towards my younger when my younger tries to perform, dance or sing for him. (my younger loves drama and dance, and practices at home a lot). He covers his ears, rolls his eyes or says "You need to be quiet!" when he's singing. Younger is super sensitive, something we've discussed with older. Keep in mind, younger doesn't perform constantly, just occasionally, but will say "L, will you please listen to my new song?" and older will do the above-mentioned hurtful actions. We've talked about how much it hurts his brother's feelings. Today, younger was practicing a song for his singing class today and older says "I need to leave the room!" and then proceeds to cover his ears dramatically while younger sings. I said (again!) his behavior was hurtful, and that as a consequence, I was not going to go out of my way to get him over to his homeschool soccer class on time (basically I need to be two places at once-younger starts drama class at the same time, and it's challenging!) and that afterwards, rather than playing no the wii for 20 minutes at the gym, he would instead start in on the afternoon reading we had planned.

 

He knows his behaviour is hurtful to his brother. Nothing we have tried seems to work to change it. I think this consequence is not "related" to the behavior, but it was the first thing I could think of--i go out of my way to get him to his class on time, and I just didn't want to do it for him today.

 

 

:(

 

ETA: I guess I feel we do a lot for him (of course) but we expect him to be respectful to us, and kind to his brother. Not all the time--they're siblings, after all! But most of the time. And it's just not happening. Combine tha with the fact that younger is super-sensitive and would LOVE for his brother just to be kind to him (he rarely "starts" anything with his brother) and it upsets his father and me greatly.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Halcyon

[AK_Mom4]

Sounds like your older son is suffering from the green-eyed Jealousy Monster.

 

Sure...seems like a reasonable discipline for being rude. I'd tell him straight out that he can leave the room, but can't be rude. That's never ok.

 

Of course, you will have to make sure that the adults in the family aren't contributing to the jealousy problem. It would not be fair, imo, to require your older boy to feed the younger one's ego, just because the younger is "super-sensitive". If your older one doesn't care to listen and watch, he should be allowed to (politely) opt out.

[Harriet Vane]

I think your discipline is fine in this case but is not the best long-term solution. There needs to be some immediate consequence or response for this type of behavior--it's rude, period. It doesn't really matter that his brother is sensitive. The behavior is just rude, and he should not be allowed to behave that way towards ANYONE.

 

Sit down with your older ds and tell him that since this is an ongoing problem, he needs some sort of reminder to not do this in future. Then tell him what the consequence will be. Push-ups? $$? Acts of kindness towards his brother? Writing 5 nice things about his brother? Chores? Frankly, it doesn't really matter WHAT is done in response, as long as there is something to STOP the behavior and direct him to a kinder path right away, each. and. every. time.

[Abigail4476]

Sounds like your older son is suffering from the green-eyed Jealousy Monster.

 

Sure...seems like a reasonable discipline for being rude. I'd tell him straight out that he can leave the room, but can't be rude. That's never ok.

 

Of course, you will have to make sure that the adults in the family aren't contributing to the jealousy problem. It would not be fair, imo, to require your older boy to feed the younger one's ego, just because the younger is "super-sensitive". If your older one doesn't care to listen and watch, he should be allowed to (politely) opt out.

:iagree:

 

All three of our kids are involved in music, and we expect them to be kind to one another, but they aren't expected to be each other's fan club.

 

Little kids can be annoying to older siblings, and what parents think is cute, their older brothers and sisters just find bothersome. I don't allow my youngest to invade his sisters' space or aggravate them when they're trying to read or listen to music.

 

I would redirect your youngest to perform for you instead of his older brother. If your oldest son sees that you're going to protect his space (and sanity), he might be more inclined to be gracious on his own at some point.

[Rebecca VA]

I think you need to respect the older child's desire to opt out of watching each and every performance. You seem to be putting more value on the younger one's sensitivity than the older child's wish for quiet. If the younger child wants to show off, fine, but don't make everyone watch and then expect them to pay compliments, too.

 

Punishing this child for a non-crime is unforgivable. I can easily imagine him telling a therapist about this punishment 20 years from now.

[forty-two]

I can understand why you responded as you did, but I'm not sure it is sending the message you want to send. Basically, you are saying to your ds8, "Since you hurt your brother, I am going to hurt you." Heaven knows I often end up doing the same sort of thing with my girls :grouphug: - but it doesn't work, and more importantly, that's not the message that I want to convey - that it is ok to do mean things to people who themselves do mean things.

 

Question: Do you think your ds8 is saying those things to *deliberately* hurt his brother? Or is it just that he feels like saying those things, and either doesn't think, or thinks that since he doesn't mean them to hurt ds5, they won't actually hurt ds5, despite all evidence to the contrary? Also, do you feel that he should be required to be nice and listen to ds5 upon occasion, even if he doesn't want to, or would it be acceptable if he politely declined and left the room?

 

I think I'd work on requiring him to apologize and restate his intent to not listen in nicer words, at the very least. Every time he says something mean, he needs a do-over, doing nothing else until he can say it in a nicer, socially acceptable way - giving him the exact words to say, if need be. If he's really wanting to be mean, though, I'm not sure what to do there :grouphug:.

[Joanne]

I would absolutely give my older the "out" to not be expected to listen to songs, perfomances or dances.

 

I would also, however, tell my older that he may not be unkind, rude or discourteous.

 

I'd coach my younger that he has no right to expect everyone to provide an audience on demand.

 

 

ETA: I have a performing type younger son and a more gender-scripted older one. I am not speaking out of theory, but reality.

[Sophia]

I think your discipline is fine in this case but is not the best long-term solution. There needs to be some immediate consequence or response for this type of behavior--it's rude, period. It doesn't really matter that his brother is sensitive. The behavior is just rude, and he should not be allowed to behave that way towards ANYONE.

 

Sit down with your older ds and tell him that since this is an ongoing problem, he needs some sort of reminder to not do this in future. Then tell him what the consequence will be. Push-ups? $$? Acts of kindness towards his brother? Writing 5 nice things about his brother? Chores? Frankly, it doesn't really matter WHAT is done in response, as long as there is something to STOP the behavior and direct him to a kinder path right away, each. and. every. time.

:iagree:

 

He can't get away with just a negative consequence, he has to show you how he's going to change his behavior for the future.

 

I would sit with him and say, 'let's hear that song again, and then let's hear some more" and coach him on appropriate responses.

 

Anything less than a kind response is not acceptable.

 

I have also explained to my dc that I will not allow anyone to be rude to them~likewise I will not allow them to be rude to one of my other dc.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

its hard when they aren't nice to one another!

 

for this time, i'd leave the discipline as it is, then decide on a standard discipline each time it recurrs. (i start with "that's not acceptable. pick up 5 things in the diningroom. after a few times of that in the morning, i tease whichever one it is, begging them to please be rude again, as the diningroom is almost tidy. done in a cheerful, teasing voice, that usually has everyone laughing, and them being quite determined NOT to pick up the last five things!)

 

then i'd work on being clear about the problem.

 

i think i'm hearing that there are at least 2:

i) older son needs to not be rude to anyone. does he need help coming up with a polite exit line? is it a way of diverting attention to himself from his younger sibling (in the "its better to be wanted for murder than not wanted at all?" vein) so part 1 would be skill development, part 2 would be modifying behavior

 

ii) younger son needs to review with you what happens each time he asks older brother to listen/watch/etc. help him discover why that might be, and then choose a different audience.

 

ideally, one option might be that older son would give younger son one ticket a week to perform in "his" theater, his choice of time. he may have some other creative ways to meet his little brother's needs without it making him crazy.

 

and some simple slogans might go a long way. "in our house, you can't use put-downs". rinse, repeat. come up with logical consequences for using a put-down (this would be the significant problem in our house). this would also separate it out from the performance, sensitivity aspect, and focus on what may well be the heart of the matter.

 

i commend you for not just writing it off as sibling behavior! siblings don't need to put one another down.

 

:grouphug:

ann

[Haiku]

I would probably have done something like that short-term, but long-term I think there needs to be a solution more geared toward resolving the tension between the boys.

 

I would probably set up a system where older ds has to repay each hurtful comment or action with two (or three) kind comments or actions. For example, if he makes a rude comment about younger ds's singing, he must not only find something to compliment younger ds about, but then also needs to play a game with younger ds or put away younger ds's laundry.

 

I also routinely talk with my kids about how their actions affect how other people feel about them. When my kids are being "terrible fractious" with one another, I comment to them about how their behavior has worn me out and made me not really want to spend time with them at the park like I said I would. I also tell my kids that if they can't behave at home, we're certainly not taking their poor behavior out of the house.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I think you need to respect the older child's desire to opt out of watching each and every performance. You seem to be putting more value on the younger one's sensitivity than the older child's wish for quiet. If the younger child wants to show off, fine, but don't make everyone watch and then expect them to pay compliments, too.

 

 

I don't think it's showing off to want someone to watch your performance. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect that family members support one another. There needs to be a balance, but I don't think allowing one family member to consistently fail to support another is a good way to go. Sometimes family members put up with a little personal inconvenience to show love and support to one another.

 

ETA: I also suspect that the OP's son isn't being rude because he desires quiet. Siblings pick at each other, sometimes just because they think they can.

 

Tara

Edited November 18, 2010 by TaraTheLiberator

[Ellie]

I would redirect your youngest to perform for you instead of his older brother. If your oldest son sees that you're going to protect his space (and sanity), he might be more inclined to be gracious on his own at some point.

:iagree:

[Halcyon]

I need to clarify my OP: older does not have to listen to every song, performance etc of his brother. BUT he has to excuse himself in a kind and respectful manner. I realized after talking with him today that he wasn't able to formulate a coherent way to "get out" of listening to his brother. So we worked together on what he might say to his brother when he doesn want to listen. We decided it would be bes if younger had a weekly set 20 minutes performance time where he could perform for his family-including his brother. Older thought that would work out just fine, and even thought of some kind supportive things he could say to younger. We have tried this sort of thing before so I can't say I'm toally hopeful, but we can only try.

 

Also, we have had numerous discussions about how to treat others, etc. It doesn't help, seemingly.

[Catwoman]

I don't think it's showing off to want someone to watch your performance. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect that family members support one another. There needs to be a balance, but I don't think allowing one family member to consistently fail to support another is a good way to go. Sometimes family members put up with a little personal inconvenience to show love and support to one another.

 

ETA: I also suspect that the OP's son isn't being rude because he desires quiet. Siblings pick at each other, sometimes just because they think they can.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

The OP specifically stated that these little performances are occasional, not something that's happening 10 times a day, and it sounds like it's one little song, not an entire Broadway show, so the older brother only has to be patient for a few minutes.

 

If he really doesn't want to watch or listen, he can politely decline; he doesn't have to be mean, rude, or hurtful. It seems as though he's looking for a way to make his little brother feel badly about himself, and that's not acceptable.

 

If this had been an occasional offense and the older brother usually tolerated his little brother's performances, I could understand how he may have lost his temper if he was already in the middle of doing something else, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I don't have a great suggestion about punishment, and although the OP's choice of punishments may or may not have been the best possible options, she was thinking on the fly and I'm sure many of us -- myself included -- would have said something very similar to what she said.

 

Cat

[Catwoman]

I need to clarify my OP: older does not have to listen to every song, performance etc of his brother. BUT he has to excuse himself in a kind and respectful manner. I realized after talking with him today that he wasn't able to formulate a coherent way to "get out" of listening to his brother. So we worked together on what he might say to his brother when he doesn want to listen. We decided it would be bes if younger had a weekly set 20 minutes performance time where he could perform for his family-including his brother. Older thought that would work out just fine, and even thought of some kind supportive things he could say to younger. We have tried this sort of thing before so I can't say I'm toally hopeful, but we can only try.

 

Also, we have had numerous discussions about how to treat others, etc. It doesn't help, seemingly.

 

I hope it works for you!

 

Cat

[Halcyon]

I don't think it's showing off to want someone to watch your performance. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect that family members support one another. There needs to be a balance, but I don't think allowing one family member to consistently fail to support another is a good way to go. Sometimes family members put up with a little personal inconvenience to show love and support to one another.

 

ETA: I also suspect that the OP's son isn't being rude because he desires quiet. Siblings pick at each other, sometimes just because they think they can.

 

Tara

 

 

You're absolutely right, Tara. Younger watches Older's sports, even though their not his thing, and doesn't mock him or make him feel badly for liking to play basketball. I would expect the same behavior from the older to the younger.

[Halcyon]

:iagree:

 

The OP specifically stated that these little performances are occasional, not something that's happening 10 times a day, and it sounds like it's one little song, not an entire Broadway show, so the older brother only has to be patient for a few minutes.

 

If he really doesn't want to watch or listen, he can politely decline; he doesn't have to be mean, rude, or hurtful. It seems as though he's looking for a way to make his little brother feel badly about himself, and that's not acceptable.

 

If this had been an occasional offense and the older brother usually tolerated his little brother's performances, I could understand how he may have lost his temper if he was already in the middle of doing something else, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I don't have a great suggestion about punishment, and although the OP's choice of punishments may or may not have been the best possible options, she was thinking on the fly and I'm sure many of us -- myself included -- would have said something very similar to what she said.

 

Cat

 

Thanks Cat-yes, I knew at the time it wasn't the best of choices for discipline. DH and I go out of our way to "make things happen" for Older (as do we all!)--he loves to go to lots of out-of-the-house activities, sports etc, and we do our best to accommodate him. And I think I just had had it-I didn't feel like going out of my way for him given how he was behaving. Again, not the best response, but we're human LOL.

[Catwoman]

Thanks Cat-yes, I knew at the time it wasn't the best of choices for discipline. DH and I go out of our way to "make things happen" for Older (as do we all!)--he loves to go to lots of out-of-the-house activities, sports etc, and we do our best to accommodate him. And I think I just had had it-I didn't feel like going out of my way for him given how he was behaving. Again, not the best response, but we're human LOL.

 

I absolutely understand! I sometimes do the exact same thing in the heat of the moment and then, a little while later, I start second-guessing myself.

 

Cat

[Halcyon]

:grouphug:

 

its hard when they aren't nice to one another!

 

for this time, i'd leave the discipline as it is, then decide on a standard discipline each time it recurrs. (i start with "that's not acceptable. pick up 5 things in the diningroom. after a few times of that in the morning, i tease whichever one it is, begging them to please be rude again, as the diningroom is almost tidy. done in a cheerful, teasing voice, that usually has everyone laughing, and them being quite determined NOT to pick up the last five things!)

 

then i'd work on being clear about the problem.

 

i think i'm hearing that there are at least 2:

i) older son needs to not be rude to anyone. does he need help coming up with a polite exit line? is it a way of diverting attention to himself from his younger sibling (in the "its better to be wanted for murder than not wanted at all?" vein) so part 1 would be skill development, part 2 would be modifying behavior

 

ii) younger son needs to review with you what happens each time he asks older brother to listen/watch/etc. help him discover why that might be, and then choose a different audience.

 

ideally, one option might be that older son would give younger son one ticket a week to perform in "his" theater, his choice of time. he may have some other creative ways to meet his little brother's needs without it making him crazy.

 

and some simple slogans might go a long way. "in our house, you can't use put-downs". rinse, repeat. come up with logical consequences for using a put-down (this would be the significant problem in our house). this would also separate it out from the performance, sensitivity aspect, and focus on what may well be the heart of the matter.

 

i commend you for not just writing it off as sibling behavior! siblings don't need to put one another down.

 

:grouphug:

ann

 

 

Omgosh, I had missed this post, but ended up doing something very similar to what you suggested here. We have "chore points" in our family, where misbehavior warrants extra points which have to be worked off by doing unpleasant chores like kitty litter, folding laundry, cleaning garage. I hadn't wanted to give older chore points for disrespecting his brother, because I feel it might exacerbate the tension, does this make sense?

[NanceXToo]

I would tell your younger, "listening to songs is not really so and so's thing, so when you want someone to listen to you sing, ask me, okay?"

 

I'd then tell your older, "I have told so and so not to ask you to listen to his singing anymore. However, I will not have you making hurtful remarks if you happen to hear him, because you know it hurts his feelings."

 

When you hear him make a hurtful remark thereafter, I would make him write an apology letter to younger. I imagine he won't find that very fun for more than a time or two, but if it keeps happening, you could always take it up a notch and require a page/essay on what it feels like to have your feelings hurt, or about a time he's had his feelings hurt, or why you shouldn't hurt somebody else's feelings etc.

 

Something like this is, I think, more 'relevant' than taking away his belongings or not getting him to an activity on time.

[RanchGirl]

I think not going out of your way to get him to soccer on time was very appropriate, that is a privilege and an extra effort on your behalf; and it sounds like it got his attention.

 

I have one that just had to have a similar chat today regarding treating little bro with the same kindness and respect he expects in return.

 

And it sounds like you have some plans for improving things long term, way to go!!! The weekly performance is a great idea, so big bro knows what is expected and that it is for a limited time frame, and little bro feels supported as well.