s/o college proffessor thread...if you could choose?

[simka2]

The other thread brought up a very interesting issue for me. First of though I think we can all agree that the ideal proffessor would be professional in their presentation, passionate about their subject and a genius ;).

 

But.....if you had to choose between a very proffessional, but average instructor vs. an unconventional, but exceptional one...what would you choose?

 

Note: I'm not talking trendy "unconventional," but like taking an art course from Van Gough? Or math from Einstein? Someone with serious quirks :D.

Edited September 19, 2010 by simka2
my horrible spelling :)

[Dana]

I just want to avoid unconventional and unexceptional :D

 

I had an English class in undergrad with an instructor who was just dreadfully disappointing. He held office hours in the pub and taught class mostly drunk on one or two occasions. What was disappointing was that it was a course on science fiction... and he really didn't use science fiction books or trace the evolution of sci fi. I remember one student asking questions about why we were reading Ender's Game after the really neat books we'd been reading - like Wizard of Oz. Sigh.

 

I think that was my most disappointing course.

 

I'd rather unconventional and exceptional.

[freethinkermama]

My favorite professor in college was very unconventional. I enjoy unconventional--in my Christian life, I was very unconventional (on the conservative end), and like anyone who can push an envelope with panache.

 

He was (and still is) PETA faculty advisor on campus, boxer, Harley rider, Atheist-Jew, fluffy bearded and known to wear a mumu from time to time. He cursed like a sailor, and I was a very serious Christian and taking his Honors Philosophy class. He was on the "dangerous" list that Campus Crusade at out at our university at the time. I made it a point to take classes from as many of those professors as I could. The ones that I had the fortunate of learning under were all exceptional.

This professor was outstanding, and I contacted him earlier this year to thank him (15 years after my last class with him) for his teaching.

 

T.

[Margo out of lurking]

But.....if you had to choose between a very proffessional, but average instructor vs. an unconventional, but exceptional one...what would you choose?

 

 

Considering I hs my kids, haven't I already made the choice for an unconventional, exceptional teacher? Not trendy, totally quirky . . .

 

Right? lol

[Dandelion]

But.....if you had to choose between a very proffessional, but average instructor vs. an unconventional, but exceptional one...what would you choose?.

 

I would definitely choose "unconventional but exceptional" over "professional but average". For me personally, expertise trumps professionalism when it comes to being able to learn something from someone. Now granted, if the "quirks" were so atrocious or distracting that I was unable to focus on what the person is teaching, I too would have to pass. But if I find the quirks tolerable (and everyone's tolerance level is different - mine is quite high), I'll put up with them in order to benefit from the person's expertise.

 

When I think back to my college days and my career, I can find many examples of quirky (and sometimes downright bizarre) professors as well as mentors from whom I learned a lot. There was the brilliant (but disheveled and rambling) statistics professor in my MBA program, the manager who cussed like a sailor (we're talking constant f-bombs, with a Welsh dialect nonetheless) but was one of most "politically savvy" strategists I've ever worked for... I would have missed out on a lot, had a written these people off for a perceived lack of professionalism.

[Rebecca VA]

I'd want the unconventional one, because being around people like that inspires me to think harder and faster and in more creative ways. I love that! I hate being bored!

 

However, if the professor crossed the line into inappropriate behavior of any kind, I'd want to get away from him, fast.

[Aubrey]

I don't think I'd like to take art from Van Gogh or math from Einstein. I'd love to meet either of them, hear what they have to say, etc, but not take a class from them (most likely).

 

I've found that people who are great in their field are rarely great teachers. Teaching is itself an art, imo, & I'd want a great *teacher* for whatever I was learning.

 

Creating a false dilemma between "professionalism" & "unconventionality" seems dangerous to me. There's really no reason for the two to be in conflict. (Although I realize that's the whole point of the question, lol.)

[3littlekeets]

Honestly, I don't see "professionalism" in the way it was framed in the other thread as having anything to do with being an outstanding professor. I think professors who encourage students to think, challenge their prior beliefs (even if it is so they can better defend them!), and present new and intriguing material are the the best professors. They generally come in the "unconventional" packages. I would have hated college if all the professors acted like ministers or business V.P.s.

 

To those that like the conservative route, however, there are certainly colleges that will meet your needs! Harding, Baylor, Wheaton, etc.... I think the key is finding the right fit before you enroll :D. I want my kids at Berkeley or NYU. :lol:

Edited September 19, 2010 by 3littlekeets

[simka2]

I'd want the unconventional one, because being around people like that inspires me to think harder and faster and in more creative ways. I love that! I hate being bored!

 

However, if the professor crossed the line into inappropriate behavior of any kind, I'd want to get away from him, fast.

 

:iagree:I was thinking about this after I listed Van Gogh as an example. No, matter how exceptional they are, there is a point that can cross into unethical. Although, in my experience, it is the most proffessional that have secretly been the most unethical. Something beneath the polished veneer ;). (not a rule..I know :D)

[simka2]

I don't think I'd like to take art from Van Gogh or math from Einstein. I'd love to meet either of them, hear what they have to say, etc, but not take a class from them (most likely).

 

I've found that people who are great in their field are rarely great teachers. Teaching is itself an art, imo, & I'd want a great *teacher* for whatever I was learning.

 

Creating a false dilemma between "professionalism" & "unconventionality" seems dangerous to me. There's really no reason for the two to be in conflict. (Although I realize that's the whole point of the question, lol.)

 

 

Great point! My experience has been different, but I do see what you are saying :001_smile:.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't want to pay for average. I can do average by myself.

 

The same applies to food. I hate paying for a restaurant meal that I could have made better at home.

 

One of my favourite lecturers used to instruct the guys on how to organise a polygamous life properly :lol: I can't say I liked being one of his example wives while he was explaining how it all worked (only being pointed at while I stayed in my seat, but urgh, he was in his 60s and wore a cravat!) but it was a learning experience. :D His favorite hand gesture just happened to be the absolutely worst Auslan sign I know, worse than anything in my English vocabulary, which made me cringe every time, but his classes were the most worthwhile I took, and I took some really good classes!

 

The only thing I ever had a go at a tutor about was when the jerk was picking on first year students. I must have looked really ferocious because one of the gents in my tute group said when we were leaving that he thought I was going to deck the guy. :001_huh: Anyway, the jerk didn't need to be told a third time... The only other jerk I came across was one of the lecturers, but since we didn't have to interact with him, just sit there and try to listen out for something worth listening to, I didn't other engaging. It was just a stupid first year subject and you have to expect a certain amount of dud classes. A general derisive attitude isn't as offensive as the bloke I mentioned before who was actually picking on specific people.

 

Rosie

[simka2]

I don't want to pay for average. I can do average by myself.

 

The same applies to food. I hate paying for a restaurant meal that I could have made better at home.

 

.

 

Rosie

 

This reminded me so much of my home growing up!!! My stepfather is an amazing artist, pretty vulgar, a gormet chef...and one of the most amazing people I have ever known.

 

I cannot tell you how many times we would try to go out to a family resturant...only to have him send back the food and refuse to pay!!!

 

Then it was home for goat cheese pizza, pesto, the little fillo cheese and spinach triangles I won't even try to spell ;)

 

He was key in helping me see that, the teacher I liked wasn't always the one who provided the best education :001_smile:.

Edited September 19, 2010 by simka2

[3littlekeets]

This reminded me so much of my home growing up!!!

 

He was key in helping me see that, the teacher I liked wasn't always the one who provided the best education :001_smile:.

 

In fact, we often don't know who our "best" teachers were until years after we are out of school... :D

[ma23peas]

I just don't see the need to say you can't have professional and passionate/excellent teacher..I did...I was pre-med and a chemistry major..had tough classes with passionate professors....they were also very professional...

 

I equate your comparison with the public school issues we face today...would you rather have a good education and put up with all the junk that goes with it? (crime, gangs, police officers in the schools) or should we expect a higher standard? I homeschool b/c I was not satisfied with the junk...I think if we start 'tolerating' unprofessional behavior, that's what we'll get...I think if we expect a level of respect and professionalism, that's what we'll get.

 

We're thinking on two different planes here..

[ma23peas]

This reminded me so much of my home growing up!!! My step father is an amazing artist, pretty vulgar, a gormet chef...and one of the most mazing people I have ever known.

 

I cannot tell you how many times we would try to go out to a family resturant...only to have him send back the food and refuse to pay!!!

 

Then it was home for goat cheese pizza, pesto, the little fillo cheese and pinach trianfles I won't even try to spell ;)

 

He was key in helping me see that, the teacher I liked wasn't always the one who provided the best education :001_smile:.

 

I understand a bit better now...you're equating 'rough' on the edges with unacceptable and maybe diminishing the character you've loved..in a way you're defending folks like your father....are we all going to be professional and respectful..no...I do believe artists have a struggle with their self-control....every band director I had in school had major anger/stress issues! coincidence, maybe not....

 

Nowhere am I saying we should not love those with quirkiness but I am saying if I'm paying for a class...or paying for a class for my child, I want the education to be forefront, not the teacher's lack of self-control..and to be honest, those with personality issues like you describe tend to move from campus to campus...if they put their grievances above their responsibility to be respectful and an educator...I think the student loses.

 

The example of the restaurant is fine, let him have his say..he's paying for a meal and has expectations...the same for the student, they have their expectations and when the lesson is bittered by unnecessary language..the student has a right to express the same discontent your father did at the restaurant.

 

Tara

[simka2]

Eeeeek! I didn't answer my own question!

 

I love variety! I love color! I love diversity in belifes, mannerisms. I love learning from people and about people.

 

 

I've had great med school teachers who taught us to memorize huge lists of infor with very sexualized acronymns. Made quite a few of us blush.

Rageing evangelicals, stoic psychology proffs, completely nuts drama teachers...you name it. I have learned great things from them all.

 

I've only switched out of one class due to a total personality clash, involveing publicly humiliating students, a very thick accent and she didn't know anything about anatomy.

 

I don't think I would do well in a cookie cutter world, no matter how professional it is. But, I realize that others are not wired quite the same way...and that's OK.

Edited September 19, 2010 by simka2

[3littlekeets]

Nowhere am I saying we should not love those with quirkiness but I am saying if I'm paying for a class...or paying for a class for my child, I want the education to be forefront, not the teacher's lack of self-control..and to be honest, those with personality issues like you describe tend to move from campus to campus...if they put their grievances above their responsibility to be respectful and an educator...I think the student loses.

 

The example of the restaurant is fine, let him have his say..he's paying for a meal and has expectations...the same for the student, they have their expectations and when the lesson is bittered by unnecessary language..the student has a right to express the same discontent your father did at the restaurant.

 

Tara

 

Yes, and please go to a University that fits your expectations. Your version of professional is not everyone's ideal.

[simka2]

I understand a bit better now...you're equating 'rough' on the edges with unacceptable and maybe diminishing the character you've loved..in a way you're defending folks like your father....are we all going to be professional and respectful..no...I do believe artists have a struggle with their self-control....every band director I had in school had major anger/stress issues! coincidence, maybe not....

Good points! But not exactly what I'm talking about. He taught me tolerance can lead to some amazing revelations.

Nowhere am I saying we should not love those with quirkiness but I am saying if I'm paying for a class...or paying for a class for my child, I want the education to be forefront, not the teacher's lack of self-control..and to be honest, those with personality issues like you describe tend to move from campus to campus

 

I can't agree with you there, all of the examples I gave were of tenured professors

 

...if they put their grievances

 

I think they put their individual personalities above, not grievances

 

above their responsibility to be respectful and an educator...I think the student loses.

 

The example of the restaurant is fine, let him have his say..he's paying for a meal and has expectations...the same for the student, they have their expectations and when the lesson is bittered by unnecessary language..the student has a right to express the same discontent your father did at the restaurant.

 

Very true, they do have that right, but the prof doesn't have to cow to their definition of professional. KWIM?

 

Tara

 

I really do "get" what you are saying, but I still think that if every professor had to teach according to a certain standard of acceptable speech, barring abusive, the student looses. Learning to be "okay" even when you are surrounded by others that aren't is an incrediable skill. :001_smile:

 

By the way...I love your siggy ;).

[mcconnellboys]

Exceptional wins every time for me, hands down....

[ma23peas]

Yes, and please go to a University that fits your expectations. Your version of professional is not everyone's ideal.

 

It's not my version, it's Princeton's, Harvard's, Auburn University's, you name it, any legitimate institution for higher education has these in place...

 

Here's an example..

 

 

1. The Basic Aspiration A faculty member is primarily a teacher and a scholar. Above all the single overriding canon is: to strive for excellence and to inspire excellence in others.

2. Duties to Students University teaching should reflect consideration for the dignity of students and their rights as persons. Students as well as faculty are entitled to academic freedom and autonomy in their intellectual pursuits and development. Teachers must therefore treat students with courtesy and respect. They must not require students to accept their personal beliefs or opinions and must strive in the classroom to maintain a climate conducive to thinking and learning. They must not misuse their position, authority, or relationship with students.

3. Professional Obligations Faculty members should seek knowledge and value the pursuit of truth. They should strive to contribute to their discipline, and should support and encourage the efforts of others. Faculty members should maintain and improve their effectiveness as teachers and scholars.

4. Obligations to the University A faculty member's position is one of trust and responsibility to the university and the students, faculty, and staff who constitute the university community. Faculty members should merit such trust and responsibility by devoted service. They should strive to maintain and improve the academic quality of their department, college, and the university. When called upon to serve in administrative posts or on committees, faculty members should strive to achieve the legitimate purposes of the university with due consideration for the interests of other persons involved.

Like I said, it's all about respect and professionalism....and it's something called ethics.

 

Tara

[edithcrawley]

Unconventional and exceptional definitely...I've had some profs that are horrible people, but awesome teachers, and I learned more from those classes than I ever did from the ones where the prof was "normal"

[simka2]

It's not my version, it's Princeton's, Harvard's, Auburn University's, you name it, any legitimate institution for higher education has these in place...

 

Here's an example..

 

 

1. The Basic Aspiration A faculty member is primarily a teacher and a scholar. Above all the single overriding canon is: to strive for excellence and to inspire excellence in others.

2. Duties to Students University teaching should reflect consideration for the dignity of students and their rights as persons. Students as well as faculty are entitled to academic freedom and autonomy in their intellectual pursuits and development. Teachers must therefore treat students with courtesy and respect. They must not require students to accept their personal beliefs or opinions and must strive in the classroom to maintain a climate conducive to thinking and learning. They must not misuse their position, authority, or relationship with students.

3. Professional Obligations Faculty members should seek knowledge and value the pursuit of truth( so if we take the example from the other thread...whose truth? Some don't see it as blasphemy or unprofessional.) . They should strive to contribute to their discipline, and should support and encourage the efforts of others. Faculty members should maintain and improve their effectiveness as teachers and scholars. (who is to say that what is offensive to one student...isn't helpful to another? There is no way a statement like this can be intended to lock professors into not offending students by their speech.)

4. Obligations to the University A faculty member's position is one of trust and responsibility to the university and the students, faculty, and staff who constitute the university community. Faculty members should merit such trust and responsibility by devoted service. They should strive to maintain and improve the academic quality of their department, college, and the university. When called upon to serve in administrative posts or on committees, faculty members should strive to achieve the legitimate purposes of the university with due consideration for the interests of other persons involved.

Like I said, it's all about respect and professionalism....and it's something called ethics.

 

Tara

 

This is great! But we are splitting hairs...everything written in that can be interpretted in numerous ways. Can be used to support either view point. example above...

 

We have different defenitions of what is professional in academia. Like I said before, I think there are different standards within different departments.

 

There is no comprehensive standard of what is professional.

[Parrothead]

I've got to go with quirky, unconventional and brilliant every time.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I've got to go with quirky, unconventional and brilliant every time.

:iagree:

[3littlekeets]

This is great! But we are splitting hairs...everything written in that can be interpreted in numerous ways. Can be used to support either view point. example above...

 

We have different definitions of what is professional in academia. Like I said before, I think there are different standards within different departments.

 

There is no comprehensive standard of what is professional.

 

 

Bingo. And in fact, I see that as entirely supportive of academic freedom -- barring abuse and grading students who disagree with your views more harshly than those who agree. Nowhere does it say, "professors must not use profanity" or any such statement regarding language use...pushing views yes...insulting students yes. But, you can't regulate Oh my G-d anymore than you can regulate "Oh my golly" which is a substitute that diety could decipher. Just like "darn" is okay but "d@m$" isn't. They are the SAME thing except we get our knickers in a bunch over one and not the other. :lol:

[FO4UR]

I've got to go with quirky, unconventional and brilliant every time.

 

:iagree:

 

I learn best by seeing a model, imitating a model, and then doing my own thing. Let me watch the quirky Master, and I can glean what I need.

 

Of course, my college experience was in music ed...and I'm thinking of some of the experiences I had in both music (where I learned from some quirky but talented people) and education classes (where I endured talented teachers who gave me little substance to learn).

 

One of the best experiences I had was a semester with a music theory teacher who was a horrible "teacher," but simply oozed his subject matter...he related music theory to me like a good picture book relates science to my little ones. I daily had "Oh, I finally GET that!!!" moments in his class. Maybe it was the years of systematic teaching that made those moments possible though...idk.

[WishboneDawn]

My favorite professor in college was very unconventional. I enjoy unconventional--in my Christian life, I was very unconventional (on the conservative end), and like anyone who can push an envelope with panache.

 

He was (and still is) PETA faculty advisor on campus, boxer, Harley rider, Atheist-Jew, fluffy bearded and known to wear a mumu from time to time. He cursed like a sailor, and I was a very serious Christian and taking his Honors Philosophy class. He was on the "dangerous" list that Campus Crusade at out at our university at the time. I made it a point to take classes from as many of those professors as I could. The ones that I had the fortunate of learning under were all exceptional.

This professor was outstanding, and I contacted him earlier this year to thank him (15 years after my last class with him) for his teaching.

 

T.

 

I can't help but think that kind of situation, where you're the polar opposite from your teacher AND he/she is a radical or off the wall, could be tremendously creative and fun.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

I'd rather have an exceptional professor everytime, but that doesn't always mean unconventional.

 

My French professor is fairly conventional. Her classes are probably like many other language classes out there. But she is friendly, approachable, and always willing to help.

 

My two favorite history professors are both unconventional and exceptional. They are passionate about their subjects, have somewhat of a different view on things than many other people. Mostly importantly, they have been willing to help me out when I've asked, and have given me a lot of good advice.

 

I've built relationships with these professors, and I guess that is what makes them exceptional to me. I've had other professors who were great in class, but since I didn't have any dealings with them outside the classroom, they don't come to mind quickly when I think of exceptional professors.