Singapore Math users please help.

[mystika1]

Hi,

First, I hope I word this correctly and you all can understand.:001_smile:

I have been using SM 1B for about a month with my daughter(7) and so far it is going good but I need help. I am having trouble getting her to regroup. Example: This morning she had a question such as 27 + 8= ? I layed out colored blocks to demonstrate 27 and then 8 on the side. I took three squares from the 8 pile and made another 10 and she immediately told me the answer which is great but....When given her workbook page she began working out the problems like I showed her to but goes soooo fast she doesn't lay out the correct amount of tiles and ends up missing the problem. She also started complaining and dragging her feet for every single problem saying that "this method takes waaaayyy too long and I can count in my head faster." When she uses the drawings in the book to fugure out the answers she tries to circle groups of 10's when I am watching but if I turn my head she is back to counting.:tongue_smilie:

 

Am I making too much out of this?

What should I do?

 

I have just purchased the Liping Ma book which hopefully will help. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

[calandalsmom]

It is frustrating bc with those easy problems it IS faster to count for them at first.

 

I would keep practicing the making tens but I would not stress about it.

 

If she is hurrying and missing things she needs to slow down. But you will know best what to do to help her with carelessness. Kids respond to different things.

[siloam]

Penny,

 

Is she move visual than hands on? You might try drawing it out on the white board (the ..... just keeps the spacing so the forum doesn't automatically condense it):

 

..27+8=

......./\

27+3+5=

\..../

..30+5=35

 

Of course if she is an auditory learner you might have a tough time. She might be counting simply because it is a way for auditory learners to hear it.

 

Another possibility, instead of using ones only try making something a 10, so she can grab 2 10's and 7 ones. That would speed up the hands on work.

 

Heather

[imhim]

I use the manipulatives showed on this book - not the book:

http://www.rainbowresource.com/product/Base+10+Block+Activity+Book/008010/1283979885-935842

 

I don't know if it would help to have a "stick" of 10 that you cannot take apart.

 

My dd needed another piece of paper to do all the mental math exercises. She learned to draw the 2 parts of the number (3 and 5 out of the 8) and then add the 3 to the 27 and then the 5.

It was not easy. But now she does exercises up to 100 with no problem, mentally. I think crucial for my dd was to know VERY well, all addition facts to 20. 7 + 8 is 15 - this is how she does 67 + 18 now - she addes the tens and keeps them in her mind, then adds 15.

I do not know when all this became easier, she forgot some over the summer, but is doing great now - we are finishing up 1B, and CWP. Will continue with IP and RIght start for a month, and then go to 2A.

 

It is not easy, I had to sit there with her and explain over and over, and then she took off.

[imhim]

There, Heather already explained everything much better and faster :-)

[missmoe]

I would say keep doing it during your lesson time, so she knows how to do it. But allow her to do it how she is most comfortable during her independent work. For me one of the best parts of Singapore math is the way it teaches multiple ways of doing the same thing.

 

I think the working too fast is a different issue. I would have her redo the problems that she gets wrong. Most likely, she'll soon learn that slowing down and doing it correctly the first time is a better use of her time.

[mystika1]

Penny,

 

Is she move visual than hands on?

 

Well, To put it mildly....She hates using MUS blocks. She just freaks when I pull them out so I don't think she is a hands on kind of girl.:D I wanted to try to use c rods but I am afraid of wasting money after her reaction to the mus blocks.

 

I can try using scratch paper to demonstrate like you showed. I will try just about anything to get her going.:001_smile: I have also used MM in the past and she just cried every time I took out the book. I am feeling really messed up as a teacher for math. That is why I bought the Liping Ma book.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

[KrissiK]

I use Unifix cubes with Singapore and they're great. There's 10 of each color, so they make great 10's, but theyr'e easy to pull apart. We're dong 1B right now, too, and it's very difficult for me to teach. He gets it with the manipulatives. But then when you do double digit subtraction with borrowing, it's hard for me to really show him how to do that on paper. In some ways, it's so much easier just to teach them the algorhythm. But, he doesn't seem to get frustated.

[Storm Bay]

My ds used C rods for SM. He is fairly auditory and one thing he still does is to write the digits in the same order as he would if he weren't regrouping. eg if he is adding 97 + 88, he doesn't write the 5 in the units at the bottom & the 1 afterward over the tens, but writes the 1 over the tens column first & the 5 under the units second. This solved a great deal of confusion for him when he was younger.

 

That said, my 12 yo absolutely refused to regroup when it first came up with SM until she watched Mr. Demme teach regrouping on a MUS video. She didn't need the manipulatives, but somehow he got through to her when I couldn't. My 12 yo is highly vs, so learns quite differently than ds.

[mystika1]

Do you all think Miquon would help? Or would it actually aggravate the problem? I really want her to see math from all angles as I struggled in math until I was older.

 

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions.

 

Penny

[siloam]

Do you all think Miquon would help? Or would it actually aggravate the problem? I really want her to see math from all angles as I struggled in math until I was older.

 

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions.

 

Penny

 

Penny,

 

Given your child's dislike of rods, I wouldn't go with Miquon. There are a lot of exercises that have to be done with the rods, no choice. My kids really didn't like it, but that was more due to the discovery nature of the program. They prefer to be told exactly what to do not discover it on their own.

 

Heather

[lmrich]

I taught this skill over and over and over again when I taught school. The best way to do it is teaching and modeling it over and over and over again. I would use a little dialogue such as, "can I put two numerals in the one's place?" "NO" "so I will put the ones here in the ones' place and the tens up in the tens' place" It really helps to use base ten blocks for this. Even if YOU use them to model each exercise with. I would easily do this for 10 problems a day in front of the class or my kids. Then we would work on 10 together. Only after a week or so of this would they get their own to do. This is a huge concept for the kids to learn. Do not move forward until your child has learned this. Also make sure you go over that you always start in the ones' place first. She'll get it, just make sure you give her a lot of guided practice.

[idnib]

Well we're two units behind you in SM so I haven't tried what you're trying to accomplish, but my son has better luck with the abacus than with the cubes.

 

He also likes to work fast and somehow the fact that he can quickly slide a group of beads all together works for him and it makes him more accurate. He prefers this to moving discs and cubes around.

[VA6336]

We're in 1B as well, and it was only yesterday that my daughter figured out it was easier and faster to simply count tens + ones. She counted out every.single.thing before this. I'm sure she'll revert to it for a while. Very frustrating for me, because she KNEW how to count tens + ones, she just didn't want to. So I let her do it her way for the workbook and she finally "caught on." I say just stick with showing her the "proper" way during lesson time and let her do her workbook her way, not letting wrong answers slide by. Having an unbreakable stick of 10 will help if you insist on her using manipulatives. We do use the cuisinaire rods occasionally, which she can't "count" individually. You could just use a piece of colored paper if you don't want to invest in another manipulative.

[distancia]

Coming from a parent whose D tried (and hated) manipulatives when she was younger, I really wish I had stuck to it. Instead, I let her do it "her way" and rely on her fantastic memory.

 

Fast forward ten years later. Now she is 17 and still has that fantastic memory, but that memory holds only so much. D knows the math facts (memorization), but she never learned the math concepts.

 

My suggestion is to allow your D to proceed when she can demonstrate the concept back to you. Don't make it a punishment type of thing (holding her back), but instead, say something like, "honey, you're so smart, I know you can add these numbers in your head. Now I want you to be the teacher, just like Mr. Demme, and explain the adding (carrying) idea to me....sometimes mommy doesn't catch on as quickly as you do. When you are able to explain it to me that will mean you are an excellent teacher's assistant in this area and you can move on to the next level."

 

Good luck.

[Dana]

Well, To put it mildly....She hates using MUS blocks. She just freaks when I pull them out so I don't think she is a hands on kind of girl.:D I wanted to try to use c rods but I am afraid of wasting money after her reaction to the mus blocks.

 

I can try using scratch paper to demonstrate like you showed. I will try just about anything to get her going.:001_smile: I have also used MM in the past and she just cried every time I took out the book. I am feeling really messed up as a teacher for math. That is why I bought the Liping Ma book.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

I have Base 10 blocks. Love them! Ds... not so much.

He HATED them in Bk 1 and 2 of Singapore. However... he worked with them today with division in Bk 3 without complaint!

 

In the earlier books, I'd show the concepts with the blocks, then I'd let him just do the work. When he got a problem wrong, I'd make him show me with the blocks and write the correct work. (wailing & moaning & gnashing of teeth - often from both of us!) But he's getting it!

 

I also have pushed on the drill on the basic memorization of the addition and multiplication facts and that prevents counting. (Basically, it's faster for my son to do it "my way" rather than doing it "his way" and then having to redo things my way. Although I will let him try out different approaches.)

[Ali in OR]

She doesn't necessarily have to use manipulatives for her independent work. We use them to demonstrate concepts, but always moving toward doing the steps mentally so that they aren't needed. But they're available if my dd wants to use them and she sometimes does.

 

For this particular example of doing 27+8, yes I would demonstrate with base 10 blocks first. But then I talk her through problems in different ways so she gets good at manipulating numbers in her head. Knowing the number bonds instantly for sums up to 10 is crucial. For sums to 10-20, at some point having them memorized is best, but if the dc knows how to make a 10, they can figure out 7+8 quickly even if they haven't memorized 15. So with that as background knowledge, I talk dd through the problem of 27+8 (quite possibly with manipulatives lying around for us to pick up and use as needed):

 

"How many do you need to make the 27 a 30?"

"3"

"Take that from the 8, what's left?" (need to know the number bond)

"5"

"What's the answer?" (we've already talked about how easy it is to add anything to 10 or a multiple here...once you see the 5 leftover in the number bond, you know the answer if 35)

 

Or a different way to talk it through:

"Do you know 7+8?"

"15"

"27 is 20 +7, so you can add 7+8 and then add that to the 20"

(I actually think this is a harder way to add it, but dd liked this method--she didn't have any trouble adding 20+15)

 

I'll ask dd if the sum will stay in the 20s or if we're adding enough to jump to the next "decade". I don't think that is an official math term, but it works for us. It's easy to see that it is enough to land in the 30s. Still have to figure out 30-what, but having a sense of where you should land provides a reality check--your answer should not be in the 40s or 20s.

 

"What would 27+10 be?" (again, because it is so easy to add 10 to anything)

"37"

"Would 27+8 be more or less than 37?"

"less"

"How much less?"

(dd starting to see the answer)

"2 less--35!!"

 

I like having these discussions with my dds and I think approaching problems from multiple angles gets them manipulating the numbers in their heads. Manipulatives like base 10 blocks or cuisenaire rods are just a jumping off point, not a destination.

[Storm Bay]

Coming from a parent whose D tried (and hated) manipulatives when she was younger, I really wish I had stuck to it. Instead, I let her do it "her way" and rely on her fantastic memory.

 

Fast forward ten years later. Now she is 17 and still has that fantastic memory, but that memory holds only so much. D knows the math facts (memorization), but she never learned the math concepts.

 

Good luck.

 

 

fwiw, I have one dd who learned the concepts without rods, but it is important to get the concepts however you do it. For some dc that comes harder than others. My younger two did do rods, but they found them fun. My youngest would count even with the MUS rods, so the c rods worked better. I like this suggestion, although my dc would hate the line "let mommy be the teacher:001_smile: and that could make things harder here.

 

I find it easier to separate teaching the concepts from learning math facts in the earlier years. This is in great part due to the fact that I have strong willed dc. However, I'd have done that anyway. We have math facts songs which helped some of my dc to some extent.

 

Personally, I'd read the Lipling Ma book since you're using SM.

[siloam]

She doesn't necessarily have to use manipulatives for her independent work. We use them to demonstrate concepts, but always moving toward doing the steps mentally so that they aren't needed. But they're available if my dd wants to use them and she sometimes does.

 

For this particular example of doing 27+8, yes I would demonstrate with base 10 blocks first. But then I talk her through problems in different ways so she gets good at manipulating numbers in her head. Knowing the number bonds instantly for sums up to 10 is crucial. For sums to 10-20, at some point having them memorized is best, but if the dc knows how to make a 10, they can figure out 7+8 quickly even if they haven't memorized 15. So with that as background knowledge, I talk dd through the problem of 27+8 (quite possibly with manipulatives lying around for us to pick up and use as needed):

 

"How many do you need to make the 27 a 30?"

"3"

"Take that from the 8, what's left?" (need to know the number bond)

"5"

"What's the answer?" (we've already talked about how easy it is to add anything to 10 or a multiple here...once you see the 5 leftover in the number bond, you know the answer if 35)

 

Or a different way to talk it through:

"Do you know 7+8?"

"15"

"27 is 20 +7, so you can add 7+8 and then add that to the 20"

(I actually think this is a harder way to add it, but dd liked this method--she didn't have any trouble adding 20+15)

 

I'll ask dd if the sum will stay in the 20s or if we're adding enough to jump to the next "decade". I don't think that is an official math term, but it works for us. It's easy to see that it is enough to land in the 30s. Still have to figure out 30-what, but having a sense of where you should land provides a reality check--your answer should not be in the 40s or 20s.

 

"What would 27+10 be?" (again, because it is so easy to add 10 to anything)

"37"

"Would 27+8 be more or less than 37?"

"less"

"How much less?"

(dd starting to see the answer)

"2 less--35!!"

 

I like having these discussions with my dds and I think approaching problems from multiple angles gets them manipulating the numbers in their heads. Manipulatives like base 10 blocks or cuisenaire rods are just a jumping off point, not a destination.

 

Actually this is what I did with my oldest two while writing it out for them, for every problem till they did it right on their own. I haven't had to with my younger two because Right Start also teaches it, and by the time they start Singapore (2nd grade) they have it down. My oldest through needed me to walk them through it repeatedly till it became natural.

 

The nice side effect was that it re-wired me as well, so I think about math in base 10 terms now.

 

Heather

[LauraQ]

You have said she doesn't like hands-on things like cuisinaire rods or other manipulatives such as those used in MUS. Several others have explained how to write things out on marker boards or scratch paper. I'll over something completely different: talking through it out loud.

 

My dd is an auditory learner. I tried to get multiplication through to her on paper and marker board and with manipulatives and nothing worked because all of those involved visual elements. One day while driving around (we did a lot of that in Houston) she asked about something math that led to a conversation about multiplication. I had my hands busy with driving and couldn't so much as *gesture* to get my point accross, so I was forced to use only words. That did the trick. She had this grand "aha" moment so big I could almost hear the *pop* in her brain, and just took off running with the concept. Even today, if I can't get something through to her, I have to close my eyes, sit on my hands, and force myself to explain in words only. That's how she learns.

 

That totally may not be the case with your dd, but it's worth a try. All math programs are either visual, hands-on, or a combination of the two. None are specifically designed for auditory learners, but Singapore, I think, best lends itself to them if you can learn to use it that way. It requires NOT pulling the book out until you've *discussed* the math concept with dd first so she gets it. THEN show her in the text the relevant section and *talk* through the examples while making eye contact with her rather than with one finger on the page, showing her each step. Definitely requires that you peak ahead and know what to teach out loud for the next lesson.

 

I hope something we've suggested works for you.

[Storm Bay]

You have said she doesn't like hands-on things like cuisinaire rods or other manipulatives such as those used in MUS. Several others have explained how to write things out on marker boards or scratch paper. I'll over something completely different: talking through it out loud.

 

I hope something we've suggested works for you.

 

 

Why didn't I remember this? Ds used manipulatives but we had to talk the math out loud, took, and he did all of his problems that way then, too.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Penny,

 

Is she move visual than hands on? You might try drawing it out on the white board (the ..... just keeps the spacing so the forum doesn't automatically condense it):

 

..27+8=

......./\

27+3+5=

\..../

..30+5=35

 

Of course if she is an auditory learner you might have a tough time. She might be counting simply because it is a way for auditory learners to hear it.

 

Another possibility, instead of using ones only try making something a 10, so she can grab 2 10's and 7 ones. That would speed up the hands on work.

 

Heather

:iagree: I actually just finished this same problem and found a workable solution. I went to Enchanted Learning and printed out tons of worksheets on number families. Stop Singapore for a week or two and simply have her practice worksheets (the cluster diagrams that show a 7 in the middle and have her create seven ways to make a 7: 6+1, 5+2, etc. using addition and subtraction.) Then spend extra time making 5's and 10's. This extra practice REALLY sped up my 2nd grader (who started SM this year in level 1). Once she gets some practice under her belt, her speed will increase and she'll be fine. Don't give in on this, it will make a HUGE difference later.

[mystika1]

Well we're two units behind you in SM so I haven't tried what you're trying to accomplish, but my son has better luck with the abacus than with the cubes.

 

I remembered that I stored the manipulatives from my Right Start trial and decided to take out the abacus yesterday. WOW! She used it with no frustration. This may be my saving grace for math! Thanks for mentioning it. :001_smile:

 

I also purchased a set of wooden c rods yesterday cause I found a large box for $5.00 at my local homeschool cottage. I figured my youngest one could play with them at the table if my 7 year old doesn't use them.

 

I will make number bond flash cards to help also.

 

Thanks so much for the help everyone.:)

 

Penny

[Matryoshka]

Well, To put it mildly....She hates using MUS blocks. She just freaks when I pull them out so I don't think she is a hands on kind of girl.:D I wanted to try to use c rods but I am afraid of wasting money after her reaction to the mus blocks.

 

I used the MUS blocks as manipulatives with Singapore with my first two kids. I also had C-rods, but I liked the MUS blocks better. They were fine.

 

But then I found the AL Abacus! So much easier to "see" how the numbers combine into 5's and 10's, and so easy to take out and put away. It's not terribly expensive. I bought it and the Activities for AL Abacus and taught my older kids (and myself) to use it one summer. For my younger dd, it's the only manipulative (well, other than scales and containers and such) that I used with Singapore.

 

I'm wondering if the AL Abacus is different enough from the MUS blocks (unlike the C-rods which seem like a variation of the same idea) that she'd like it better. It's also much faster to use than lining up blocks and trading for 10's, which may help with that objection as well.

 

Edit: Well, that's what I get for not reading to the end of the thread before posting! Glad the Abacus is working!

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

She also started complaining and dragging her feet for every single problem saying that "this method takes waaaayyy too long and I can count in my head faster." When she uses the drawings in the book to fugure out the answers she tries to circle groups of 10's when I am watching but if I turn my head she is back to counting.:tongue_smilie:

 

Am I making too much out of this?

What should I do?

 

I have just purchased the Liping Ma book which hopefully will help. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

I've already read to the end of the thread to see that the RS abacus is working for you. It is a great manipulative! I just wanted to say that my ds7 did this too, and the thing that made me sad is that he felt really smart and successful about his counting faster than the working/seeing the process. He thought it was all about speed! :confused: So, making him work more slowly with the concept was actually an insult to him, if that makes any sense...like I was saying his way wasn't good enough. In his mind, it was good enough and why bother with the other if this was faster. So, I started thinking...

 

I have all these ideas in my head of what I know they need to know but they do not, you know? They don't see the road ahead, just the next step on the path (aka, the next problem set). I had much more luck when I had a discussion with him about the long-term (still in kid language). I wanted him to understand that these concepts aren't arbitrary. They're not "Mom's way" or the book's way. They are the way math works. I'm not telling him to work the problem my way for the same reason he has to take out the trash when I say ("because I said so!"). It's because I want him to understand math as a series of concepts that build upon themselves. A Lego analogy worked well here; if you do not build the first layers of your Lego model according to the instructions, you will not be able to finish it properly. In fact, you will have to go back and redo the work. The better the foundation is built, the easier it is to proceed. And speaking of that...

 

I have a funny story from last year when ds was finishing one of his SM workbooks. He was so excited all morning. I mean, busting at the seams to do his math and finish that workbook. He's pretty good with math but it's definitely not his favorite, to say the least. So, I was shocked to see him in such a mathy mood, until he finished and proceeded to run through the house, screaming ecstatically to his sister, "I'm finished with math, FOREVER AND EVER!!!" :001_huh::lol:

 

Anyway, it's dawning on me that I need to show the kids the roadmap of the path we're on. DS didn't even know yet that there were 12 years of school before high school graduation and that every one of them would involve math! He just saw the book in front of him. Here I am dutifully laying a foundation and the poor boy was clueless! Now, he's 7 so he obviously still doesn't see all the details of the road ahead that I do but he already sees how the more he knows about concepts and the more he can play with math and be comfortable with it, the easier it is for him. It was the next book that gave him perspective. I point out to him when something is easier because of another thing he took the time to learn.

 

Do you all think Miquon would help? Or would it actually aggravate the problem? I really want her to see math from all angles as I struggled in math until I was older.

 

I agree with Heather that if your dd doesn't like manipulatives, she won't love a large part of Miquon. But funnily enough, my absolute favorite part of Miquon doesn't even involve the rods. My favorite part is the sheets that ask kids to play with numbers. So, there will be one that will have a 50 at the top and then there are lots of spaces on the page where you are supposed to write all the things that can be 50 (25x2, 2x25, 50+0, 2+48, 100-50, 1000-950, 10x5, etc.). There are quite a few of these and I think they are absolute genius! Gold!!! The c-rods and base 10 and the abacus are great tools but this playful thing they do with math in Miquon goes beyond manipulatives into a philosophy of play. Love, love, love this curriculum because it helps kids become playful and free-wheeling with numbers.

 

I also purchased a set of wooden c rods yesterday cause I found a large box for $5.00 at my local homeschool cottage. I figured my youngest one could play with them at the table if my 7 year old doesn't use them.

 

I will make number bond flash cards to help also.

 

This is great! I can't tell you how many sins from my first year of teaching math are being corrected by my oldest seeing my youngers play with and do their own math. He learns just as much from their math work as they learn from watching his.

 

Definitely do the drill on number bonds. Nothing will fix counting and guessing like memorization of math facts. In that way we're old school. Yes, I need them to understand the concepts but I want them to fly with those numbers.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Alte Veste Academy

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

Here's something cool I found a few weeks ago...it will take the place of bonding flashcards

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Here's something cool I found a few weeks ago...it will take the place of bonding flashcards

 

That's pretty cool. DD would love this!

 

DS7 is a typical wiggly boy so I made him a bucket of number bond circles. I took those two sided (red/white) plastic circles and wrote all the numbers on the white side that he would need to make every single number bond through 20 (although we started with just the first 5, then 10, etc.). Then I would dump the pile on the table and tell him to build all number bonds through whatever total we were currently working on. He loves puzzles so this worked well for him. If I tried this with dd, it would send her into a frenzied tantrum. :lol:

[idnib]

I remembered that I stored the manipulatives from my Right Start trial and decided to take out the abacus yesterday. WOW! She used it with no frustration. This may be my saving grace for math! Thanks for mentioning it. :001_smile:

 

 

Yea! Good news. I hope it continues to work.