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Dropping WWE. Mistake, or not?


*Jessica*
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Nik (almost-7 and in first grade) likes everything we're doing, except for WWE. I keep thinking about dropping it, because he does draw and write a lot on his own every day, but it just feels like a mistake to drop it. I mean, it's writing! That's pretty important, right? His handwriting isn't very good, in my opinion. I don't think letting him pick sentences from literature he's reading would improve how he feels about copywork. And he hates narrating. Hates it! He has good comprehension and an amazing memory, so making him narrate when he doesn't want to feels useless and perhaps even dangerous. Why dangerous? I'm afraid it's going to make him start to not like reading, which he currently loves.

Ok, I've already talked myself into dropping WWE for now. I'll come up with other writing activities (any recommendations that are really fun?) I'm going to quit making him narrate, unless someone can give me a very good reason that I shouldn't.

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I started WWE 1 half way through 2nd grade, once kiddos reading and spelling and HW were up to snuff. We cooked right through it, and plowed into WWE2, which we should finish by Thanksgiving. I'm very glad I waited, and no harm done. I use smaller lined paper, as he is much faster and neater with 5th grade wide ruled paper.

 

We like the program, but only when ready.:)

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WWE 1 was very easy for my ds, but now that we're in the middle of WWE 2 I'm starting to see the point of it. Ds has a great memory and always knows the answers to the narration questions, but I really like how WWE 2 is teaching him to *summarize* the key ideas as this is something he doesn't do too well on his own. He's the kind of kid who will retell the story word for word. We also appreciate the exposure to classic literature, but this is a big part of our life anyway.

 

I do feel that we're missing something with WWE, or maybe that's just my instinct to supplement, supplement, supplement. I guess I'm not sold on the idea that grammar stage kids should only be summarizing and copying others' ideas. I do think there is something to be said for writing down one's own ideas. My ds has really gotten into letter-writing, and I'm often surprised how much he'll willingly write in a letter (as opposed to groaning while writing a few sentences of copywork).

 

What are other good options for these early writers?

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Narration is not about testing their comprehension. It's teaching them to write before they have to write it out themselves. You're teaching them to form a sentence correctly, to pick out the important parts of a passage, and to simply get used to the process of writing before they need to come up with something completely original. That being said, if you really loathe it drop it.

 

The reason we'd be dropping it is because I think we're way past "ready" for WWE. My daughter has an amazing memory like Nik does so I don't think the narration is necessary. As for writing, she needs something more challenging than copywork and dictation.
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Well we're using Write Source now. It covers the writing that I had in mind, as well as grammar. The parts we'll be using are their nice student textbook and the SkillsBook for practice. We also just increased our pen-pals to 6 children! Satori totally rushed to write them letters as soon as I wrote their names on the board. That's always fun to practice handwriting and writing skills!

 

I forget that people say that WWE 2 is more challenging. Maybe we will stick with it... We will be done with WWE 1 soon if we stick with it, and I recently printed out cursive copywork on all the work and my daughter loves practicing her cursive on these sheets.

 

My daughter writes books everyday. She'll write books that are eerily similar to books that we've read. For example, she was writing her version of the Burgess Bird Book for Children today. Plus, she already comes up with completely original stories herself and writes stories 20 pages long. I do want to help her along, but I don't think we're learning much from WWE 1. Maybe using WWE2 and adding Write Source will help faster.

Edited by Satori
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I would listen to SWB's lectures (downloadable on peace hill press) on writing before i dropped WWE (or some similar dictation practice). What she discusses is how important it is for children to learn how to "hold" thoughts in their head so that when they're ready to narrate, or even simply string together a few sentences for the beginning of a story, they can get those sentences down on paper without forgetting them. In addition, it's a great help with creative writing. For example, if a child says "I want to write a story about a penguin who flies to the moon and meets an alien elephant with green horns, who takes him in his flying saucer to meet his sister on Planet Zong" you would say "okay honey, great idea, go write that out!" And then he starts off "there once was a penguin who flew to the....." MOM! Where does he fly to??? What does he do next??? I said he had blue horns, right? Mom? Are you there?"

 

Of course, this isnt' the only reason narration is important. It will be critical in lectures when your child needs to write out what the professor is saying (in summary of course). It will prove very useful when he starts writing his own narration and outlines. And it also help develop his sense of proper sentence structure, punctuation and grammar.

 

So no, I wouldn't give up on dictation just yet. I would change it up, maybe find a new source of sentences to work with. But I wouldn't NOT do it. If you're interested, I have a video on my blog (link below) with my son doing dictation from WWE2. A short sample, but it gives you an idea of what Week 17 or 18 or WWE2 presents.

Edited by Halcyon
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Well we're using Write Source now. It covers the writing that I had in mind, as well as grammar. The parts we'll be using are their nice student textbook and the SkillsBook for practice. We also just increased our pen-pals to 6 children! Satori totally rushed to write them letters as soon as I wrote their names on the board. That's always fun to practice handwriting and writing skills!

 

I forget that people say that WWE 2 is more challenging. Maybe we will stick with it... We will be done with WWE 1 soon if we stick with it, and I recently printed out cursive copywork on all the work and my daughter loves practicing her cursive on these sheets.

 

My daughter writes books everyday. She'll write books that are eerily similar to books that we've read. For example, she was writing her version of the Burgess Bird Book for Children today. Plus, she already comes up with completely original stories herself and writes stories 20 pages long. I do want to help her along, but I don't think we're learning much from WWE 1. Maybe using WWE2 and adding Write Source will help faster.

 

 

My 5 year old writes very well, and happily, also. But I am still planning on using WWE1 with him next year, and WWE2 when the time is right. I think the skills WWE teaches are quite different, and just because one's child is a happy and skilled writer, to me doesn't mean he gets a pass on dictation. I might move him to longer passages if need be, but I wouldn't skip it.

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WWE 1 was very easy for my ds, but now that we're in the middle of WWE 2 I'm starting to see the point of it. Ds has a great memory and always knows the answers to the narration questions, but I really like how WWE 2 is teaching him to *summarize* the key ideas as this is something he doesn't do too well on his own. He's the kind of kid who will retell the story word for word. We also appreciate the exposure to classic literature, but this is a big part of our life anyway.

 

I do feel that we're missing something with WWE, or maybe that's just my instinct to supplement, supplement, supplement. I guess I'm not sold on the idea that grammar stage kids should only be summarizing and copying others' ideas. I do think there is something to be said for writing down one's own ideas. My ds has really gotten into letter-writing, and I'm often surprised how much he'll willingly write in a letter (as opposed to groaning while writing a few sentences of copywork).

 

What are other good options for these early writers?

 

 

I feel the same way for my 8 year old, so we supplement with Writing Strands 3, which he enjoys. I see it as supplementary, and WWE as 'core'.

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Okay, you guys twisted my arm enough to stick with it! We'll finish up WWE1 quickly (we do two lessons in one day) and move on to WWE2. It's just that we do copywork, narration, and dictation in several other subjects already, so it feels really redundant. Hopefully WWE2 will ramp it up a notch or two to provide some challenge!

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Okay, you guys twisted my arm enough to stick with it! We'll finish up WWE1 quickly (we do two lessons in one day) and move on to WWE2. It's just that we do copywork, narration, and dictation in several other subjects already, so it feels really redundant. Hopefully WWE2 will ramp it up a notch or two to provide some challenge!

 

 

My opinion: if you do narration and dictation in other subjects, and you feel it to be sufficient, then (IMO) you DON'T need to do the WWE narration. To me, that would be overkill. I do think reading the passages, discussing them so as to get the 'main points' etc is important however, so WWE would still have value for you.

 

ETA: if you'd like me to type out some of the sample dictations in WWE2, I'd be happy to do that, but tomorrow. I'm beat. ;)

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We already have WWE in the textbook form, which covers Years 1-4, so I can see some copywork examples as well as narration exercises. Thanks though! I see it does get more challenging in the later years. I knew there would be a lot of support for WWE in the WTM forums. :) I figured writing was one thing we could stray from WTM's advice, but we might as well keep doing it.

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I quickly dropped the WWE1 workbook for my DS age 6 who had already completed FLL1. I felt he had already mastered the skills in Level 1 so we just went on to Level 2 which my older son had already done. I knew it got more challenging so I decided just to skip ahead and take it slow if he needs to mature a bit before he can handle the dictation. He's also doing dictation in AAS.

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but very little mention of 3 and 4. I have kids in every level and let me tell you, WWE is plenty challenging. Those dictations kick some you know what. They are hard. There is no way I could do some of those with only 3 readings. And, it works. I can't explain it, but my son went from not being able to put a coherant thought together to writing beautifully in 1 year-- my olders started with level 3, and it really, really has improved their ability to put thoughts on paper. I started my 9 yo with 2 last year and it was pretty easy for her, but we kept going and I am so pleased. My 2nd grader is very bright and level 1 was way easy last year, but we just kept at it and she is doing beutifully in level 2 this year. My advice is to keep at it because for reasons I can't explain, it really works. I think you will be glad when you are looking back in a few years that you stuck it out.

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I started dd at 10, w/WWE3. She loved it, summarized, dictation, it was fairly hard at the beginning, due to her dyslexia. But, once we were half way through, she breezed through it. She loved the stories, some so much that I order continuations of the whole books on-line. WWE4, different ball game. Dd just turned 11, and we started WWE4 during the summer. It is really teaching her more about summarizing, and summarizing stories that may seem particularly dull. Yes, even to me! But guess what???? It all falls into place, dd is so much more articulate then her peers, and her writing actually follows in a sequential matter. Plus, her narration and dictation is exceptional.

 

Amazingly, she can actually remember the beginning of some of the stories. I have her read them aloud, again due to her dyslexia, and to make sure she comprehends exactly what she's reading. She does!!!! Be prepared, translated versions of some stories are a challenge, for me at least, not so much for dd. My advice: try the next level, if it is too much for her jump back. However, don't give up, it is fantastic reading and has made dd think in different ways (outside the box).

Forevergrace

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I would listen to SWB's downloadable MP3s. Someone correct me if I'm in error, but if you're doing narration, copywork/dictation in other subjects, you don't need WWE. If you're narrating and doing copywork/dictation in literature, in history, in science, then you're doing WWE, just w/ your own content rather than SWB's content.

 

If it's too easy, then skip ahead. You can do the assessments at the end of each level which can be found in the small, hard backed manual as well as online. Someone posted a link to a pdf which contained the year end assessments for all four years.

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I would listen to SWB's lectures (downloadable on peace hill press) on writing before i dropped WWE (or some similar dictation practice). What she discusses is how important it is for children to learn how to "hold" thoughts in their head so that when they're ready to narrate, or even simply string together a few sentences for the beginning of a story, they can get those sentences down on paper without forgetting them. In addition, it's a great help with creative writing. For example, if a child says "I want to write a story about a penguin who flies to the moon and meets an alien elephant with green horns, who takes him in his flying saucer to meet his sister on Planet Zong" you would say "okay honey, great idea, go write that out!" And then he starts off "there once was a penguin who flew to the....." MOM! Where does he fly to??? What does he do next??? I said he had blue horns, right? Mom? Are you there?"

 

Of course, this isnt' the only reason narration is important. It will be critical in lectures when your child needs to write out what the professor is saying (in summary of course). It will prove very useful when he starts writing his own narration and outlines. And it also help develop his sense of proper sentence structure, punctuation and grammar.

 

So no, I wouldn't give up on dictation just yet. I would change it up, maybe find a new source of sentences to work with. But I wouldn't NOT do it. If you're interested, I have a video on my blog (link below) with my son doing dictation from WWE2. A short sample, but it gives you an idea of what Week 17 or 18 or WWE2 presents.

I'm going to have to find a way to purchase these videos. I have already watched your son's dictation video. That is one adorable boy! The video definitely inspires me to keep up with the WWE model.

 

I would listen to SWB's downloadable MP3s. Someone correct me if I'm in error, but if you're doing narration, copywork/dictation in other subjects, you don't need WWE. If you're narrating and doing copywork/dictation in literature, in history, in science, then you're doing WWE, just w/ your own content rather than SWB's content.

 

If it's too easy, then skip ahead. You can do the assessments at the end of each level which can be found in the small, hard backed manual as well as online. Someone posted a link to a pdf which contained the year end assessments for all four years.

I'm definitely convinced to stick with copywork and narration, but I think we'll drop doing the WWE workbook and try doing it with our history studies to see how that goes. History is his favorite subject (he spends an hour or two every day reading the UILE!), so it may make him tolerate the narration and dictation.

 

Thank you so very much to everyone who chimed in with an opinion! Your comments were of great help to me.

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I knew there would be a lot of support for WWE in the WTM forums. :) I figured writing was one thing we could stray from WTM's advice, but we might as well keep doing it.

 

 

I would listen to SWB's downloadable MP3s. Someone correct me if I'm in error, but if you're doing narration, copywork/dictation in other subjects, you don't need WWE. If you're narrating and doing copywork/dictation in literature, in history, in science, then you're doing WWE, just w/ your own content rather than SWB's content.

 

 

I agree, the WTM advice is to do narration, dictation, and copywork. In fact I think the reccomendation in its "true" form is to do these in your other subjects, and not make writing its own subject. And when SWB and JB taught their kids way before WWE actually existed they were using literature, science, and history for the WWE skills.

 

There is nothing magic about the passages or questions in WWE if you have narrations, dictations, and copywork covered otherwise, and you are even doing a whole other writing program, then drop it.

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I don't let my kids influence my decisions based on what they 'like' or 'don't like'. I make the decisions based on what I know is best.

 

WWE is an excellent skill-building resource, imho. :)

 

Beth,

I really can appreciate your statement!! Sometimes, I think I'm to strict, then I hear the right words, (words I know, just seem to forget on bad days) and I'm back on track. Thanks!! It's been a hard day already!!

Forevergrace

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It's just that we do copywork, narration, and dictation in several other subjects already, so it feels really redundant.

 

We already have WWE in the textbook form, which covers Years 1-4, so I can see some copywork examples as well as narration exercises.

 

if you're doing narration, copywork/dictation in other subjects, you don't need WWE. If you're narrating and doing copywork/dictation in literature, in history, in science, then you're doing WWE, just w/ your own content rather than SWB's content.

 

You can do either way. Use WWE, or use the skills in other subject areas.

 

Before WWE came out, I used the copywork/dictation and narration suggestions in WTM, for our history, science, and literature. We muddled along alright with that, but I still felt shaky on some things. For example, WTM gave me the idea that 3rd and 4th graders should be writing several paragraphs of narration - that was NOT happening here!! And I couldn't figure out why.

 

Fast forward to WWE's debut. I scooped up the hardback textbook, and scrutinized each section (not just each level, but each section). I discovered all sorts of little things in there that were not explained in WWE, and those things made so much more sense to me. For example, there is a gradual transition from asking directed narration questions to having the child summarize himself. And then there is the training on how to figure out if the narration should be a storyline for fiction or a detailed one for non-fiction. I hadn't known how to do either of these things. But I took that book and skimmed my new 5th grader through it, shoring up his skills. He became much more confident in his narrations, and ESPECIALLY because he only had to write 2-3 sentences, as opposed to 2-3 paragraphs (which I also didn't know how to teach anyway - that comes later with outlining/rewriting from outlines, I later figured out from those wonderful writing lectures SWB did).

 

WWE 1 is super easy. But things really do start to get more challenging to the child's brain in level 2 and onward. It's great thinking exercise, preparing them for logic stage writing work. And it's separate from letter-writing and story/poem-writing.

 

Anyway, yes, you can do it either way. I was just one mother who needed the guidance of the WWE text, because there wasn't that additional teaching help in WTM. It's as if SWB took what she'd been learning/teaching for years, analyzed it, and put all those details into a teaching-training text. Perfect for me. So what I do is have the WWE textbook as my "core" for my dd (ds is done with it), and when it comes time to do a dictation or narration from WWE, she chooses a science/history/literature book that she is currently reading. She shows interesting in "creative writing," so I plan to linger a little longer on our R&S writing lessons on poems, stories, etc., because I think she will enjoy them. But I don't require those, because in my mind creative writing is separate from the writing skills taught in WWE and SWB's audio lectures.

 

hth

 

Oh, and I'm with Beth on the "Mom, not child, decides" part. :lol:

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Does the textbook for WWE contain info for all four years (1-4)? We used WWE 2 last year and I felt like the workbook was sort of a waste seeing as how 1/2 of it was student pages that we could have just as easily used lined paper with. I'd like to get the text if it contains all 4 years worth of passages/questions/copywork/narration in it.

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Does the textbook for WWE contain info for all four years (1-4)? We used WWE 2 last year and I felt like the workbook was sort of a waste seeing as how 1/2 of it was student pages that we could have just as easily used lined paper with. I'd like to get the text if it contains all 4 years worth of passages/questions/copywork/narration in it.

 

It contains info. on how to teach each sub-level within each year, for all four years. It contains samples/questions/guidance for teaching each of those sub-levels. It does not contain 36 weeks for each of four years' worth of passages/questions/copywork/narration. In other words, you can use the text to teach, but you have to come up with your own reading after each sub-level's sample week. There is a sample week, though, for each sub-level, to show you how to conduct the next several weeks of work.

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It contains all 4 years in it BUT it only contains a weeks worth of material for every 10 week block. So you'd be on year 3. It gives you a passage and exercises for week 1. THen it gives instructions for weeks 2-10 ie find dictation passages that contain plural nouns (weeks 2-3), pronouns (week 4), on to weeks 10. Then it gives you a weeks worth of info for week 11 and tells you what kind of passages to find for weeks 12-20.

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Does the textbook for WWE contain info for all four years (1-4)? We used WWE 2 last year and I felt like the workbook was sort of a waste seeing as how 1/2 of it was student pages that we could have just as easily used lined paper with. I'd like to get the text if it contains all 4 years worth of passages/questions/copywork/narration in it.

 

The textbook has 6 weeks of each year included whereas the workbook has 36 weeks of material for each year. You would have to select the passages, dictation, and your own questions for the other 30 weeks of each year.

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but very little mention of 3 and 4. I have kids in every level and let me tell you, WWE is plenty challenging. Those dictations kick some you know what. They are hard. There is no way I could do some of those with only 3 readings. And, it works. I can't explain it, but my son went from not being able to put a coherant thought together to writing beautifully in 1 year-- my olders started with level 3, and it really, really has improved their ability to put thoughts on paper. I started my 9 yo with 2 last year and it was pretty easy for her, but we kept going and I am so pleased. My 2nd grader is very bright and level 1 was way easy last year, but we just kept at it and she is doing beutifully in level 2 this year. My advice is to keep at it because for reasons I can't explain, it really works. I think you will be glad when you are looking back in a few years that you stuck it out.

 

Can I bring this thread back? I want to like WWE. So... please help me.

 

Soon to be 8yo ds and we're doing WWE2, WWE1 last year. Took some quick sample glances at WWE3 & WWE4..... Do average kids really remember these 3-4+ sentence dictations? Doesn't WWE become more of an exercise of memory rather than one of purely writing? Do we as adults remember long passgages before we write them down? I'd say I have a general idea of what to write and develop the specifics as the words go on the pages.

 

Help us please....

 

Thanks!

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I wouldn't stop with dictation (my oldest still does dictation), and I would do something to continue handwriting. You just don't have many things that work on so many skills at one time: handwriting, listening skills, spelling, punctuation and recall. Dictation rocks! That said you can just choose passages out of her readers. I also don't do the long dictations that WWE does. I do a sentence a day, record it on a mini-recorder and hand it to my kids. My kids don't have problems holding thoughts in their minds, we all have a running movie in our minds, so it is easy to rewind and play it again. :D

 

The narration you can stop as long as she gets how to summarize. My oldest was a natural at summary work, and she just did dictation then started Classical Writing in 4th grade, and has done well. She didn't need direct instruction in how to hold thoughts in the mind while putting them on paper. My 2nd dd didn't get how to summarize and really needed WWE, but only the summarizing part. The rest she had down, so after level 2 I started her working with her Bible passages, and she has been summarizing beautifully every since.

 

Heather

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Can I bring this thread back? I want to like WWE. So... please help me.

 

Soon to be 8yo ds and we're doing WWE2, WWE1 last year. Took some quick sample glances at WWE3 & WWE4..... Do average kids really remember these 3-4+ sentence dictations? Doesn't WWE become more of an exercise of memory rather than one of purely writing? Do we as adults remember long passgages before we write them down? I'd say I have a general idea of what to write and develop the specifics as the words go on the pages.

 

Help us please....

 

Thanks!

I don't even try, but we are all dyslexic here and getting it right would be a total exercise in frustration. I just don't have the time to do that x4. I do one sentence a day, record it on a mini-recorder and let them go. They rewind and make sure they got it right, and self correct if they didn't.

 

But neither do we have problems holding thoughts in our minds. If a child did I would tend to move more towards using a program like Visualizing and Verbalizing rather than dictation to remediate it, but that is me. I have personally copied a passage one word at a time and still mixed up words (used a for the type thing). I have tried it with the kids and they do get the main idea, but the words are all mixed up and the pronouns and articles are switched. Just not worth the battle here.

 

Heather

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but very little mention of 3 and 4. I have kids in every level and let me tell you, WWE is plenty challenging. Those dictations kick some you know what. They are hard. There is no way I could do some of those with only 3 readings. And, it works. I can't explain it, but my son went from not being able to put a coherant thought together to writing beautifully in 1 year-- my olders started with level 3, and it really, really has improved their ability to put thoughts on paper. I started my 9 yo with 2 last year and it was pretty easy for her, but we kept going and I am so pleased. My 2nd grader is very bright and level 1 was way easy last year, but we just kept at it and she is doing beutifully in level 2 this year. My advice is to keep at it because for reasons I can't explain, it really works. I think you will be glad when you are looking back in a few years that you stuck it out.

This is really good to know.

My dc love WWE, especially the narration. Today when I asked ds to only copy a sentence and there would be no narration, he was very disappointed and I went ahead and did the narration part for him. By the way, it was Wind in the Willows. I asked him to read it in the past but he wasn't interested, but now he asked me where the book was and eagerly started reading it.

I think we will keep doing this. I do believe in dictation.

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