Classical Conversations just for the memory work?

[Tonia]

I'd like to ramp up our memory work a little bit. We memorize quite a bit of poetry, Scripture, and recite math and grammar facts as we come upon them in our books but I think I'd like to do more for history, science, and geography. I like the idea of memorizing a history timeline so VP might be an option instead of CC.

 

But looking at Classical Conversations and I'm totally confused. I don't want to do the whole program, just add more memory work to our day. So what would I need to purchase from them? Could I get by with the CD and memory master cards? Do I need the VP cards or the Science cards too? Or could I do the opposite. Just get the cards and recite a few a week?

 

Any other products we could use for memory work for history, science, and geography?

[Tress]

:bigear:

[Tonia]

Anybody?

[Mom0012]

When I did this, I used the Foundations guide and the VP cards. That's all I needed. I'm not really familiar with CC audio products, but if all the memory work is on them and it doesn't bother you not being able to see everything laid out, I guess you probably could just use the audio cds and the cards. Heck, you could use CC audio cds and VP's memory song cds and skip the VP cards as well if you aren't planning on participating in a CC group.

 

Lisa

[Tonia]

I guess I'm not understanding what each component is used for. These are the things I'm looking at -

 

Cycle 1 audio cd

Cycle 1 memory master cards

 

Then there are the VP cards and the Science cards. And then VP songs?

 

So what are all the different cards used for?

[hsmomto5]

I am a director for CC so maybe I can clear up some of your questions. The curriculum guide has been redone and the layout is easier to follow. It has all memory work for all three cycles in it except for the VP cards. They are only listed by card and number because of copyright. There is an occasional difference in how VP puts things in order and how CC does it. But this is common in history.

The audio cd is music and reciting of all of the memory work, but once again not the VP cards.

The resource cd has printables that can be printed out to help in the memory work. The flash cards too are just an extra.

They are all different for each cycle except for the time line which is done every year.

Hope this is helpful. Let me know if you have other quesitons.

Lora in NC

[everlastingstarflower]

We did CC Foundations last year and found it very useful for helping with the memory work portion of our curriculum. We didn't do any other memory work except for what was given at CC.

 

Here's how it works:

Each week the student attends "class" from 9AM - 12PM. During that class time the teacher tutor leads the students in beginning to memorize 8 history facts from the VP cards, one history sentence, one latin grammar card, one science fact, one geography region (includes about 5 areas) and one math fact card from the CC Cycle cards. There are 3 CC cycles. Cycle 1 has history facts from ancients - before the renaissance. Cycle 2's history facts are from around the renaissance - early american. Cycle 3's history facts are from about early american to present day. (These are loose from memory and the periods may not be totally accurate.) There are 24 weeks in each cycle.

 

In addition to the memory work, each week there is a science experiment, an art project with instruction about different artists or music instruction in the tin whistle or learning about the orchestra. Each week the students must also give a short presentation. In the younger classes, our tutors allowed it to be a show-and-tell type of presentation just to get the children used to speaking in front of the group. In the older classes, the students would be given an assignment to talk about for the next week. For example, the teacher/tutor might ask them to come prepared to talk about a book they had recently read at home. During their presentations, they would concentrate on making eye-contact with each member of their audience.

 

The teacher/tutor's job is to begin the process of memorization in class and then it's the parent/child's job to work on solidifying that memory work at home. At home, you're also supposed to find the geography locations on the map so that the student not only memorizes the names but, also where they are on the globe/map.

 

Each CC cycle card has a song or chant to help the child memorize the information. So you need either the Song CD or the Computer CD for the student to learn the songs. If you purchase the book, you don't need the CC cycle cards but, if you don't want the book you'll need the cards. The book just gives an overview of which cards are going to be taught what week, what the science experiment is going to be, etc. The cards are handy for the students to use when practicing because they're portable and you can choose to only give them the cards that they're studying instead of the entire set. The computer CD has a power point presentation on it along with the songs and chants for each week. We did not use the Computer CD very much but, we used the Song CD all of the time. My dc could put the CD on themselves and listen to what they needed to memorize for the week.

 

The science cards are new and so I'm not sure how the teacher/tutors will use them in class. They are not required but, they are nice to have if you want additional information to study about the science fact that your child is learning. The science cards also have information about different scientists...not all of which are studied in CC. Some parents use the science that's taught at CC as their sole science program so I guess the science cards would be helpful to those parents who want to enrich their home science using CC as their science base.

 

Then from 12PM - 1PM, we'd have lunch and recess as a group and it was good for my dc to have the opportunity to play with their classmates and to make new friends. Plus I had the opportunity to have some chat time with the other moms. CC was a blessing for our family but, I know that it doesn't fit everyone's needs.

[Tonia]

Okay, thanks! I think I'm understanding now. :D

 

So I could get the audio CD and cards for one cycle and have what I need to do the memory work?

[GrassTiger]

I'm curious about this too, but don't know enough. May I ask what VP is? I loved the idea of CC, but I wouldn't be able to take my daughter due to disability, so that's out. But I'd LOVE if she could do the memory work.

 

Is there any place any of you know of that explains how someone could use CC materials without attending a community?

 

And does this work only start in 1st grade or is there anything for Kindergarten?

 

Thanks! Leah

[everlastingstarflower]

Okay, thanks! I think I'm understanding now. :D

 

So I could get the audio CD and cards for one cycle and have what I need to do the memory work?

 

Yes, but if you want the history timeline, you still need the VP cards too.

[everlastingstarflower]

I'm curious about this too, but don't know enough. May I ask what VP is? I loved the idea of CC, but I wouldn't be able to take my daughter due to disability, so that's out. But I'd LOVE if she could do the memory work.

 

Is there any place any of you know of that explains how someone could use CC materials without attending a community?

 

And does this work only start in 1st grade or is there anything for Kindergarten?

 

Thanks! Leah

 

VP stands for Veritas Press. VP makes 160 history fact cards. On the front is the Bible/History phrase along with artwork, some is very beautiful. On the back of the card is a 200 - 250 word explanation of the fact on the front along with another section that lists reference works that could be read to relate to the fact on the front.

 

CC Directors have informational meetings but, they are to help explain the classical model and CC to parents who are interested in becoming CC members.

 

CC is for K4 - 6th grade. All of the students learn the same memory work for each cycle. By the time the students are in 4th-6th grade, most parents want their children to achieve Memory Masters, which means that they are able to say all of the memory work for the entire cycle in one sitting with no mistakes for a teacher/tutor and the director. The idea is that the info will become so ingrained in their minds that it is second nature and they will use this memory work to hang the pegs of history on as they learn more of the whys through dialectic and how to express themselves in rhetoric.

[KeriJ]

oops. read wrong. sorry.:001_smile:

[Tonia]

Yes, but if you want the history timeline, you still need the VP cards too.

 

Think I understand now! Thanks for the help. :001_smile:

[GrassTiger]

So, if you bought the materials from the CC website, could you do the memory work on your own?

 

Are the VP cards on their website?

 

Is there anything else you would need?

 

I must admit, it looks expensive! Would you need everything to do the memory work or is something optional?

[leseve]

So, if you bought the materials from the CC website, could you do the memory work on your own? Sure you could. I, personally, know I wouldn't keep it up as rigorously if it weren't for our weekly meetings. I like the accountability to keep me on track.

Are the VP cards on their website? http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/fostkit.html - or you can find them on the VP site for the same price. The order is in the foundations guide.

 

Is there anything else you would need? You could do it with just the founcations guide and CP cards. The songs REALLY helped my kids though so the CD would be handy too.

 

I must admit, it looks expensive! Would you need everything to do the memory work or is something optional? Like everything in homeschooling, you can do as little or as much as you want. I joined a CC community last year, our 3rd year of homeschooling, and we loved it. My oldest was a memory master, reciting all 1400 facts at the end of the year. I didn't ask my younger two to try for MM but I do think, that with some work, they could have done it too. They will do it the next go 'round (when they do Cycle 1 again in 3rd and 4th grade). My sister is not in CC and bought just the Veritas cards and did it at home with her kids - she got through one pack. In CC, we did all 5 sets. If you are committed and your kids are motivated, then yes, you can do this at home with no problem. We liked the peer support (both the kids and myself) and looked forward to going each week and learning with friends.

[Mom0012]

Yes, but if you want the history timeline, you still need the VP cards too.

 

Or just the VP audio cds of the history songs, though I really like the cards and enjoy having them.

 

Lisa

[Tonia]

Or just the VP audio cds of the history songs, though I really like the cards and enjoy having them.

 

Lisa

 

I'm just curious, does the VP audio cd include a chant/recitation of the cards or is it only available as a song?

[angela in ohio]

I'm just curious, does the VP audio cd include a chant/recitation of the cards or is it only available as a song?

 

The VP CDs (you would have to buy all five) have each set of cards in order individually. So it wouldn't be one continuous timeline (there are events at the end of one set that come before the events at the beginning of the next set, because of the themes.) This works well for VP's curriculum, which they were designed to go with, but is not so handy when you just want to learn the cards in chronological order.

 

There is no reason you couldn't get the cards and put them in chronological order yourself. There is nothing magical about CC's order. There are dates on many of the cards, and you could easily do it yourself. It might not be in the exact order CC puts them, but there are different but just as effective decisions to be made (overlapping periods of time, unknown dates, etc.) anyway.

 

If you want to do the science, Latin, etc. memory work, you will need some resource from CC in order to obtain them. There are three cycles of memory work. The math and timeline are repeated each year, but the other subjects rotate. So if you bought the Foundations guide, you would get all three years. If you bought the flashcards or CDs, you would get one year. I think buying the Foundations guide and the CDs would be perfect. You can make (and should have your child make, ideally) your own flashcards.

 

You don't need the science cards unless you want to read the additional information on them. They are repeats of the science memory work that is in the guide, CDs, and flashcards.

 

The more I homeschool, and the more I read, the less effective I think CC's brand of memory work is. I really prefer the WTM method, where children learn memory work that is directly related to an area they are studying. I also don't care for the science facts or history sentences, nor the 3rd cycle Latin. Have you thought about using the WTM recommendations and/or a book like Living Memory? It would be a LOT less expensive. JMHO :D

[Mom0012]

I'm just curious, does the VP audio cd include a chant/recitation of the cards or is it only available as a song?

 

As far as I know, it is only available as a song.

 

Lisa

[Guest aquiverfull]

The more I homeschool, and the more I read, the less effective I think CC's brand of memory work is. I really prefer the WTM method, where children learn memory work that is directly related to an area they are studying. I also don't care for the science facts or history sentences, nor the 3rd cycle Latin. Have you thought about using the WTM recommendations and/or a book like Living Memory? It would be a LOT less expensive. JMHO :D

 

Not to hijack this thread, but I was recently considering purchasing the Foundations guide and all the Science, and VP cards ( I own one set). Memory work just doesn't get done around here, yet it's something that I really want to have my children do. It just seems like something all nicely laid out like CC, would help us to actually do it. Then I begin to wonder the same thing that Angela mentioned. Is this kind of memory work where facts are taught in isolation very effective? I'm genuinely curious and not trying to put down on CC in any way. It just seems to me like it would have more relevance if the memory work was tied to something they were currently learning. Any thoughts from CCers?

[Mom0012]

Not to hijack this thread, but I was recently considering purchasing the Foundations guide and all the Science, and VP cards ( I own one set). Memory work just doesn't get done around here, yet it's something that I really want to have my children do. It just seems like something all nicely laid out like CC, would help us to actually do it. Then I begin to wonder the same thing that Angela mentioned. Is this kind of memory work where facts are taught in isolation very effective? I'm genuinely curious and not trying to put down on CC in any way. It just seems to me like it would have more relevance if the memory work was tied to something they were currently learning. Any thoughts from CCers?

 

I did the program for a number of years with both of my kids. The biggest advantage to the program for my son, especially, was that it was a huge boost to his ego to know all of the CC information. It was also good for teaching him how to memorize and when we were regularly doing the memory work and knew it well, we would often be reading (I use SL) and one of my kids would blurt out one of the history facts we had learned. I thought that was great because it gave more meaning to what I was reading.

 

The problem I found is that it became too cumbersome to continue to review as my son grew older and had more schoolwork to complete each day. My kids still remember some of the facts and will occasionally chant one when we come across something, but they have forgotten a lot of the program. So, in the long run, I'm not sure if the benefit is as great as I initially thought it was. I kind of wish I had just focused on the history timeline and kept it at that because that's something that might have been manageable to continue long term. I've been actually considering chanting through the VP cards with them again, but again, I'm just not sure we have the time for that.

 

We switched to IEW's poetry memorization program last year and I am feeling that there is a greater benefit to this type of memorization. My kids are learning language patterns and increasing their vocabulary with this program. I have found it easier to review because the first two levels are on one cd and I just pop it in twice a week on our way to swimming. I feel that even if we drop the program and they forget the poems, they will still have benefitted by expanding their language skills and vocabulary. Both my kids, but particularly my daughter, really enjoy this program. My daughter always says poetry is her favorite subject when people ask.

 

CC served us well when we did it, but I'm not sure about the long term benefits.

 

Lisa

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thanks so much Lisa for your review of CC memory work and how it served your family. I appreciate your honest response. :) I think I'm mostly drawn to the history and science memory work than the rest of it. You've given me some things to contemplate.

[Angie in VA]

I'm curious about this too, but don't know enough. May I ask what VP is?

VP = Veritas Press

CC uses the VP history cards, but changes the order.

 

I loved the idea of CC, but I wouldn't be able to take my daughter due to disability, so that's out. But I'd LOVE if she could do the memory work.

 

Is there any place any of you know of that explains how someone could use CC materials without attending a community?

 

You could buy the Foundations book for $50 and follow the plan, but again, you would benefit from the audios and memory work flashcards, which are available laminated or you can download it and print off and laminate your own. (Or make your own.)

 

And does this work only start in 1st grade or is there anything for Kindergarten?

 

Thanks! Leah

 

Have I yet mentioned that we've never enrolled in CC, but have loosely used some CC materials at home? So, please, ask someone who's *IN* CC. As for grades, I believe this how CC corresponds:

 

Foundations: grades K-6

 

Challenge A = 7th

Challenge B = 8th

 

Challenge 1 = 9th

Challenge 2 = 10

Challenge 3 = 11th

Challenge 4 = 12th

 

 

Aslo, I'd see if there is a practicum near you. They're free for parents and you could learn more about how the memory work is done. And a local one here has an open house, which would allow you to see it in full action.

 

HTH.

 

Angie

who has never attended CC!

[angela in ohio]

Not to hijack this thread, but I was recently considering purchasing the Foundations guide and all the Science, and VP cards ( I own one set). Memory work just doesn't get done around here, yet it's something that I really want to have my children do. It just seems like something all nicely laid out like CC, would help us to actually do it. Then I begin to wonder the same thing that Angela mentioned. Is this kind of memory work where facts are taught in isolation very effective? I'm genuinely curious and not trying to put down on CC in any way. It just seems to me like it would have more relevance if the memory work was tied to something they were currently learning. Any thoughts from CCers?

 

But how would that be different than planning it out for yourself for the year? I'm not arguing, I'm trying to help think this out, because I hear this from many people, and not just about memory work. I wonder how much money homeschoolers spend each year simply because they want "an authority" to tell them what to do each week, in the hope that that will make them finally do it. If you show your dc that you will only follow through when accountability comes from outside, you teach them to do the same (and I say this to myself as much as to anyone else.) :blush: ETA: And then I look at your signature, and I realize you have a 17 yo and more parenting experience than me, and I feel the need to apologize... :)

 

If it's a matter of not having time to create your own list, I can understand that, but otherwise, there is no difference between CC's schedule and your own. AND the list you create will be personally meaningful and useful to your own children and what they are learning, not someone else's idea of what you dc need to memorize.

 

We did CC for two years. We did Cycle 3 (U.S History) when we were studying American History at home, so it made sense, although the science memory work didn't really fit. This past year, we were studying Geography at home and younger ds did Cycle 1 in Foundations, which wasn't in any way relevant to him. So I think CC memory work would work okay if you tied all your studies to it.

 

We have always done memory work at home, and we didn't join CC for the memory work aspect, so it wasn't a big deal, but I prefer to create our own list of memory work that we can adapt to our own schedule. I personally think it works better to have a list of memory work, and not a schedule. Then you work through each thing until it is memorized, progressing at a pace that is actually right for the child. (Of course, one of my core problems with CC is the lock-step, institutional method, so this goes along with that. I think people like SWB and others who give guidelines that parents cement to fit their own dc are on the closer path to classical ed IMHO.)

Edited June 28, 2010 by angela in ohio

[GrassTiger]

Thank you, everyone, for your comments! They were all very helpful. My apologies to Tonia--I don't mean to hijack your thread!! You asked a wonderful question!

[Tonia]

Thank you, everyone, for your comments! They were all very helpful. My apologies to Tonia--I don't mean to hijack your thread!! You asked a wonderful question!

 

No problems here! I'm still trying to decide what I want to use so this conversation is helping me. :D

 

I think I might just do what Angela suggested and pick up some books and continue choosing our own memory work, just adding in more of the things that I seem to be lacking.

[Jami]

(Of course, one of my core problems with CC is the lock-step, institutional method, so this goes along with that. I think people like SWB and others who give guidelines that parents cement to fit their own dc are on the closer path to classical ed IMHO.)

 

I very, very much agree.

[maryanne]

We have participated in a CC community for 4 years and will continue next year. We use the CC memory work as supplemental work. I purchase curriculum for all the subjects I plan to teach at home. This means that the memory work does not always correlate directly with what we are studying at home. However I choose my content subjects (History & Science) to loosely correlate with the CC Cycle so every year some of the memory work is relevant to something we have just studied, are currently studying or will study soon. As we progress through the CC Cycles and our own History and Science Cycles my children make more connections between the CC memory work and the other information we cover in those subjects.

 

The reason I purchase curriculum such as Sonlight, SoTW, TOG etc... rather than using CC as the spine is that I could not personally pull together the rich variety of resources these curricula do on my own just using CC as the spine. But, other families do successfully use the CC work as their spine and bring in other resources at home using the library and other purchased resources. This of course makes most of the CC memory work very relevant to the subjects being studied at home. This method works for some but not for us.

 

There are several reasons I choose to participate in CC and use their memory work even though it is not always directly relevant to what we are studying at home. I appreciate the public speaking opportunities and classroom experience my children get there that we could not get other places. I appreciate the positive peer pressure to learn the memory work; it allows us to learn more pieces in a more fun way than we could at home on our own. My children also have benefited from the science experiments and fine arts activities when we did not have the time to do these things at home.

 

For us using CC as supplemental memory work along with loosely correlated curricula is the right balance between relevancy and getting it done for our family. I hope my experience with CC will help others find the balance that works for their families and make the right choice about CC for them, whatever they decide.

[Guest aquiverfull]

But how would that be different than planning it out for yourself for the year? I'm not arguing, I'm trying to help think this out, because I hear this from many people, and not just about memory work. I wonder how much money homeschoolers spend each year simply because they want "an authority" to tell them what to do each week, in the hope that that will make them finally do it. If you show your dc that you will only follow through when accountability comes from outside, you teach them to do the same (and I say this to myself as much as to anyone else.) :blush: ETA: And then I look at your signature, and I realize you have a 17 yo and more parenting experience than me, and I feel the need to apologize... :)

 

If it's a matter of not having time to create your own list, I can understand that, but otherwise, there is no difference between CC's schedule and your own. AND the list you create will be personally meaningful and useful to your own children and what they are learning, not someone else's idea of what you dc need to memorize.

 

 

 

 

No, don't worry. There's no need to apologize. Actually you are quite right. I didn't intend on joining CC. I just wanted the guide for memory work ideas to use at home. I have no idea what to assign for memory work. I don't own a copy of the WTM, just borrowed it from the library and that was a while back, so I don't remember anything about memory work. I was trying to get it last weekend but it was already checked out.

 

I really feel like I need someone to tell me what my kids need to memorize. That's why I keep seeking other alternatives. Although I have a 17 year old, she is not homeschooled and never has been due to a split custody situation. So I'm still learning so much. I am quite lazy when it comes to things, I'll admit it. ;)

That's part of it, but another part is being unsure what exactly to assign as memory work. So do you think re-reading the WTM and possibly something like Living Memory will better serve me?

[Beth in SW WA]

 

There are several reasons I choose to participate in CC and use their memory work even though it is not always directly relevant to what we are studying at home. I appreciate the public speaking opportunities and classroom experience my children get there that we could not get other places. I appreciate the positive peer pressure to learn the memory work; it allows us to learn more pieces in a more fun way than we could at home on our own. My children also have benefited from the science experiments and fine arts activities when we did not have the time to do these things at home.

 

 

 

Your reasons here are precisely why I am joining for next year.

 

We'll still do our studies at home, which may or may not coincide w/ CC memory work. (Not a deal-breaker for me if they don't jive.)

[GrassTiger]

No problems here! I'm still trying to decide what I want to use so this conversation is helping me. :D

 

I think I might just do what Angela suggested and pick up some books and continue choosing our own memory work, just adding in more of the things that I seem to be lacking.

 

Thank you for your graciousness, Tonia! Yes, I'm leaning towards doing the same. I ordered the Living Memory book already and put the poetry memorization from IEW on my list of things to consider. This conversation has been really helpful for me too.

 

I had originally considered CC as a social venue for my child--some place she could make friends and study similar things and all, but after contacting our local coordinator, I found that they can't accommodate me, so that's not possible. :( But I'm glad I considered it because now I think I'll make more of an effort to add memory work. I still enjoy the poetry I had to memorize in high school.

 

Thanks, everyone!

[MeganW]

So what if you wanted to do ONLY the history timeline, at home, at your own pace? Would you still need all that stuff?

- CC Foundations teacher's manual

- CC audio CDs

- VP history flashcards

 

I realize that I could pull a history timeline together myself, but frankly, that just is not my focus at this point and if someone else has already done the work, it might be easiest just to buy theirs! :)

[angela in ohio]

So what if you wanted to do ONLY the history timeline, at home, at your own pace? Would you still need all that stuff?

- CC Foundations teacher's manual

- CC audio CDs

- VP history flashcards

 

I realize that I could pull a history timeline together myself, but frankly, that just is not my focus at this point and if someone else has already done the work, it might be easiest just to buy theirs! :)

 

Nope. You would just need the VP cards. The history song isn't on the CDs, so you definitely wouldn't want those. You could get the Foundations guide if you wanted to use CC's order, but you can also just put them in order yourself. There isn't really one "right" way to order them.

[Terabith]

Well, the main reason we're doing CC is for the social aspect.

 

It's the only co-op in town that I've found. My six year old is VERY social, and has a strong need to "belong." I actually find a lot of the memory work sort of dumb, and I don't do much work outside of the class. We listen to the CD in the car, and occassionally there will be some memory work that seems worthwhile. But, I can't get excited about my 6 yr old being able to skip count by 7's/ know the theory for the area of a circle, sing Latin declensions. All of those are good things, but there's no context and there is too much being thrown at them too fast to really get it. I don't see a ton of benefit of a kindergartener being able to recite all the time line cards without knowing what any of them are.

 

Last year, Anna asked the teacher what area was, and what a radius was. Rather than just drawing a circle and showing her, she said, "We don't have time for that. You dont' need to understand it, just memorize it."

 

I like the fact that she plays with other kids. I LOVE the fact that she has a class, and a sense of belonging, that "this is my group." I love that she has a group of kids to invite to her birthday party. I like the public speaking. I think the exposure to different topics is nice. It's not going to hurt her, and some of it is really beneficial, but on the whole it's too much emphasis on memory and not enough on understanding, and I AM a big fan of memory work. We do a lot at home, but I focus more on poetry and such, and some academic stuff. I'm just not willing to build my entire curriculum around it.

 

I like the geography.

[angela in ohio]

Last year, Anna asked the teacher what area was, and what a radius was. Rather than just drawing a circle and showing her, she said, "We don't have time for that. You dont' need to understand it, just memorize it."

 

She is correct that it is generally not explained in class. But she might have redirected your dd to ask you instead. The idea is that the parent takes it further at home and gives whatever explanation their child is ready for or able to understand. :001_smile: