Thanks, SWB! I just listened to A Plan for Teaching Writing: Middle Grades

[KIN]

I now have a plan for 5th grade writing next year. I cannot say how excited I am to get started! It is going to take a bit more planning than opening up a writing curricula, but this flows so much more with our other readings than a disjointed writing assignment.

 

Thanks again!

[5LittleMonkeys]

I now have a plan for 5th grade writing next year. I cannot say how excited I am to get started!

 

 

Isn't it great!:D

 

I found these lectures a few weeks ago. I was so apprehensive about starting the writing curriculum I had chosen for next year but now I am going to use her method and am so relieved! Like you said it just seems to flow; it's so much more cohesive this way.

 

If you have time go ahead and listen to the highschool and literature ones also. They really make you see the big picture.

[Melissa in CA]

Where does one go to listen to these??

[5LittleMonkeys]

They are for sale at

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

 

They are only 3.99 each. Very economical for a writing program.:D

[Melissa in CA]

Just finished listening to this! I love SWB! She is BY FAR my favorite conference speaker. She makes everything seem so uncomplicated, down to earth, and do-able. Unfortunately I've only gotten to hear her speak live once, as she doesn't come to California often, but it remains my favorite conference to date. :D

 

Glad to know I can get some of her lectures online. It was worth the $4.

[bethben]

Can you share the basics? is it mostly writing down narrations and doing outlines? I'm not too much of an audio person, so I need to know if it's going to be better than what I have thought about.

Beth

[KIN]

Edited: I deleted my notes. I'm feeling like I'm reproducing SWB's talk without her permission. So, while they were only my notes, I didn't feel comfortable. I'll just say the talk is worth the $3.99!!

Edited May 9, 2010 by KIN

[bethben]

Thanks! What does she mean by a literary essay? I've been thinking about doing an IEW theme unit just because I couldn't think of anything else. I would like to keep the writing with the history study. This may be my "ticket". i'll have to buy that session. So, again - what's a literary essay?

 

Beth

[Colleen in NS]

Thanks! What does she mean by a literary essay? I've been thinking about doing an IEW theme unit just because I couldn't think of anything else. I would like to keep the writing with the history study. This may be my "ticket". i'll have to buy that session. So, again - what's a literary essay?

 

Beth

 

According to her lectures, basically it's a literature narration the child writes after having a chat with you about the book. But there are more details on the lit. analysis talk, about how to teach this, step by step.

 

KIN - yay! And where I responded to you in your history threads, I talked about ds doing narrations and outlines for history....I schedule outline/narration/outline/narration for the week (one per day), and each day rotate those assignments through history/science/literature. Once I got a plan going, things became a whole lot easier.

[nukeswife]

I now have a plan for 5th grade writing next year. I cannot say how excited I am to get started! It is going to take a bit more planning than opening up a writing curricula, but this flows so much more with our other readings than a disjointed writing assignment.

 

Thanks again!

 

I agree. I bought them and listened to them last week. I couldn't sleep and there was nothing on TV so I popped my ipod on it's dock and listened to both the elementary and middle grade ones. It was amazing and after I thought "It's so simple and makes so much sense, why didn't I think of that" The biggest "aha" moment was when she talked about not listening to the doubts that come from "Well my child in PS is writing XYZ" I liked her "Lalala I can't hear" you approach to this. That is where I really need to take the lead from SWB. I'm always worried about that, now I can just relax and let it come.

I'm planning SL history and parts of SL LA, but now I'm rethinking using their LA and just doing GWG, Soaring with Spelling (new program from GWG) and writing via SWB's method.

 

I will end with saying that listening to SWB made me want to go to a convention she's speaking at. I've never been able to go to a convention (my dh is always on deployment during the time and the kids wouldn't want to go, even with the cool kids program going on) but now I may just have to keep buying her audio stuff. She's awesome to listen to.

[scrapbabe]

So this is not information in her book The Complete Writer?

[mommy4ever]

I was wondering about these too. I just might need to track down an mp3 for mom just for these..lol. And the only time I can listen would be at night when we require quiet.

[materursa]

I'm a little confused. In the audios she talks about using writing curriculum too, so I was under the impression that the things she was describing were to be done along with a writing curriculum. Perhaps I misunderstood? Could someone clarify?

Thanks!

[Susie in CA]

I listened to this last night. It does make a lot of sense to me, and most of the middle school writing we have been doing already although not consistenly enough.

 

My question, though, is this: Do we need a different writing program in addition to the process Susan describes? I am not totally clear on this.

 

Susie

[HappyGrace]

I am very confused too-what is different in the audio that is not in WTM (which I own) and The Complete Writer/FLL/WWE (which I own). I thought if one goes by these things one *was* doing what she recommends? :confused:

[bethben]

After reading some of this discussion, this is what I'm thinking of doing. We use TOG and I plan on having ds (UG) do 3-5 sentence summaries on each of the people we're reading about, 2- 1 level outlines on a chapter in the Hakim books he reads, and an IEW theme book which I will use in replace of a literary analysis paper. I just need the extra hand holding IEW gives to me. I think that will be plenty of writing and he will also get some outlining skills which I believe is important.

 

Beth

[Melissa in CA]

Well, perhaps I am wrong, but what she was saying on the MP3 was that one does not need a writing curriculum if one teaches what she proposes. Writing can be that simple. We tend to over-complicate it. I don't think she is at all saying to not buy her WWE stuff. The WWE stuff is simplifying things for you, but it truly is not needed to teach her philosophy of writing. Makes sense? Now, I did not listen to her elementary mp3, so I am not sure what she talked about in that one.

 

Basically, she believes in writing across the curriculum, and I believe, though I have not read it in a while, that everything she talks about in the mp3 is also in her WTM book. Just listening to her talk about it brings it down to earth for me though. She's an excellent speaker, IMHO, like talking to a best friend, and the $3.99 for the MP3 download was money well spent. ;)

[dani3boys]

 

My question, though, is this: Do we need a different writing program in addition to the process Susan describes? I am not totally clear on this.

 

Susie

 

I would like to know the same thing. Should we do all of this on top of a writing program?

[5LittleMonkeys]

This thread may help answer some of your questions.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173928

 

Well, perhaps I am wrong, but what she was saying on the MP3 was that one does not need a writing curriculum if one teaches what she proposes. Writing can be that simple. We tend to over-complicate it. I don't think she is at all saying to not buy her WWE stuff. The WWE stuff is simplifying things for you, but it truly is not needed to teach her philosophy of writing. Makes sense?

 

Yes, this is what I got from it too.

 

Basically, she believes in writing across the curriculum, and I believe, though I have not read it in a while, that everything she talks about in the mp3 is also in her WTM book.

 

From my understanding she has been perfecting her plan for middle and highschool level writing plans since WTM (2009) came out and her lectures reflect that. The information is similar but not exact. She definitley is empowering you to teach writing without feeling you need to rely on a purchased curriculum and stressing the importance of writing across the curriculum.

Edited May 10, 2010 by 5LittleMonkeys

[bethben]

Here's my question. I can see the simplicity of all of the writing, but how do you improve the writing? Here's an example: when ds did the "from your brain" excercises from the IEW unit, the grammar and sentence structure was very simplistic, scattered, and FULL of run on sentences. I about cried trying to think of ways to help give a good direction without saying this paper stinks and do it over. With history summaries, he does better.

 

So, with the literary paper, how do you keep improving the writing? Do you just "know"? I am a math brained person so IEW gives me a direction to go and improved papers. So, how do you teach them to write better as they get older?

 

Beth

[Colleen in NS]

I will end with saying that listening to SWB made me want to go to a convention she's speaking at.

 

Free seminars being offered by her and her mother in VA in a few weeks!!

 

So this is not information in her book The Complete Writer?

 

The first two chapters of WWE of the Complete Writer series give the overview, but the lectures give the details.

 

I was under the impression that the things she was describing were to be done along with a writing curriculum.

 

Do we need a different writing program in addition to the process Susan describes?

 

one does not need a writing curriculum if one teaches what she proposes.

 

This is my understanding, too. Though, somewhere (full lectures that maybe didn't make the audio cut? new WTM? I can't remember) she does talk about the fact that some people are comfortable with implementing these ideas themselves, and others are comfortable with implementing them via a writing program like IEW or CW. But my understanding is that the basic flow of expository/persuasive writing skills is within the methods/timeframe she describes.

 

what is different in the audio that is not in WTM (which I own) and The Complete Writer/FLL/WWE (which I own). I thought if one goes by these things one *was* doing what she recommends? :confused:

 

One is. :D

 

It's just that the audio lectures, to me, provided some more details, understanding, connection, and continuity that *I* could not derive from WTM (I know others *have* derived all that in the past - all those high school Moms who have been doing this since 1999 or so when WTM first came out). The lectures, for me, wove the big picture out of the threads of WWE, WTM, FLL, outlining, rhetoric study, etc..

 

EDIT: actually, there is one glaring difference to me - she recommends in the audio lectures and in WWE that kids only do 2-3 sentence narrations by the *end* of fourth grade. In WTM, she has kids doing multiple paragraph reports for history and science by then. NO WAY could my son do that, and my dd9 cannot do that at the current moment, either, without it being a discouraging disaster.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[JennyL]

Ooooh, thanks for pointing these out. I am going to get a couple.

[Colleen in NS]

I can see the simplicity of all of the writing, but how do you improve the writing? Here's an example: when ds did the "from your brain" excercises from the IEW unit, the grammar and sentence structure was very simplistic, scattered, and FULL of run on sentences. I about cried trying to think of ways to help give a good direction without saying this paper stinks and do it over. With history summaries, he does better.

 

So, with the literary paper, how do you keep improving the writing? Do you just "know"? I am a math brained person so IEW gives me a direction to go and improved papers. So, how do you teach them to write better as they get older?

 

Beth

 

Here is my understanding and what I try to do. My kids learned/are learning via copywork/dictations and narrations how to put thoughts into words and words onto paper. Here is part of what happens within the process: Whenever they did a dictation, I picked something that had grammatically correct, interesting, and varied sentences. I try to pick sentences that have grammar/mechanic elements that they have studied in their grammar books. This way, they were getting patterns of good sentences into their brains. When dd9, who is doing dictation and narration now, does a narration, I ask her comprehension questions after she reads a good passage (of, say, literature), and she has to answer me in complete sentences. If she tells me part of a sentence, I ask her to rephrase it to a complete sentence, and if she can't, I take her idea and model it into a complete sentence and *have her repeat it out loud* before I write it down for her. This gist of all that is, she is learning patterns for good sentences.

 

So...ds did all of this in his younger years, and then moved to writing his own one paragraph narrations and starting to learn outlining. With his narrations, he kept on practicing the above-described process - his brain kept practicing how good sentences are composed. Now outlining is doing the same thing - he is analyzing how other good writers (as long as I pick well-written passages for him to outline) compose *their* sentences. Along with all this, he is studying grammar and doing grammar exercises. This year, I am noticing that the "putting thoughts into words - grammatically correct, interesting, and varied sentences," plus the grammar concept learning, is being transferred into his current narrations. His narrations are hardly ever grammatically perfect, but when I sit down with him to edit them, I will point out something that sounds awkward and ask him "What exactly did you mean here? (Translation: put that thought into a clear sentence - and what that sometimes means is, diagram the sentence, so you can see how/where to fix it)" So, because of earlier practice of composing those grammar stage narrations, he knows the thinking process he has to go through. And I help him through it, and he figures out exactly what he meant. Diagraming is awesome - it really forces you to figure out exactly what you mean to say!

 

I think writing is subjective in some ways, but I don't think it's a matter of "knowing" or "not knowing." If it was, it would be like saying some people can write expository/persuasive pieces, and others will not be able to. Well, sometimes it's just a matter of being taught how to think. And I think WWE gives the very basic foundation to being able to do that. And the rest of those lectures explain how to build on that, formal writing program or not. So anyway, when I help my kids, I don't "know," I use tools we've learned. I incorporate the grammar skills they are learning, and help them figure out if they need to write about the details of a passage, or the storyline of a passage (WWE helps with this, too). I help them clean up their grammar, spelling, spacing, and mechanics within their topic, but I let them figure out, within details vs. storyline guidelines, what *they* want to say about it, in their own words. And I am finding that as we continue to emphasize good reading around here, and incorporate spelling/grammar/vocab/Latin study, their expressions of their ideas *are* actually interesting! It's fun to watch.

 

My plan is to continue to teach narration and dictation for elementary, outlining and rewriting from outlines in logic stage, narrations in logic stage, and lit. "response" papers in logic stage, continuing to incorporate their previously acquired thinking skills and grammar/spelling/mechanics/spacing. It seems to be working out, so far, the way SWB describes.

 

OK - I just gave a really long answer, and sometimes those can be frustrating to read, so here is my short answer: incorporate his grammar learning into his writing, and make sure he knows how to compose his thoughts into grammatically correct sentences first (you might have to model it) before letting him loose with writing multiple paragraphs that just end up being a mess. Use diagraming to "fix" unclear sentences. If his writing is disastrous, only give him a paragraph at a time to write, so he can practice putting thoughts down and practice getting them grammatically correct.

 

hth, I have to run in a minute and can't stop to proofread this! :D

[mommy4ever]

OMG! I LOVED this! It made SO much sense! I had been struggling with dd11. Now I know exactly how to progress with her!

 

Loved the comment in there "Crying is an inarticulate form of frustration."

[2plus5makes7forme]

:bigear:

[Night Elf]

I listened to this yesterday and took 3 pages of notes. I came to the board wondering how to schedule the changes I'm making in dd12's programs to incorporate SWB's middle school writing ideas.

 

First, she definitely said you do not need a separate writing program if you are following this plan. I also agree with the poster who said this same information is in the WTM book, but hearing her talk about it adds a dimension I just couldn't pick up from only reading the book.

 

I listened to the elementary writing lecture years ago, but this one is specifically geared towards writing in 5th through 8th grades. I thought The Complete Writer only covers elementary writing at this time? Is there a middle school component out yet, and I missed it?

 

She suggests, in addition to the writing schedule for history, science, and literature, that you have separate grammar and spelling programs. She does not think the integrated LA programs work well as the skills from each concept don't always match up. In other words, the grammar might be ahead of the writing skill, or vice versa. She also said the writing portions of any of the grammar programs she recommends are not necessary and she would skip them in favor of the writing schedule she talks about for history, science, and literature.

 

The term literary essay is used in the lecture, but I'm not sure she called it that in the WTM. Basically, she's talking about the writing assignment done once per week on a current novel being read. She suggested the student focus on 1 or 2 of the questions listed on pages 345 and 346 of the WTM. It's not supposed to be a formal writing like a 5-paragraph essay. It's just answering the questions in complete sentences. An 8th grader should write more than a 5th grader, but I don't remember her recommending more than half a page.

[bethben]

I finally broke down and bought the lecture. My thoughts? No way could writing be this simple...will this actually teach my child how to write? Where are all the pre-writing, rough draft, final version stuff we were all taught. It just seems too simple. Ds would absolutely love if we went this direction - it really is a lot easier in a lot of ways than what he has been doing. Can it really work?

 

Beth

[DianeJM]

.

 

EDIT: actually, there is one glaring difference to me - she recommends in the audio lectures and in WWE that kids only do 2-3 sentence narrations by the *end* of fourth grade. In WTM, she has kids doing multiple paragraph reports for history and science by then. NO WAY could my son do that...

 

 

Colleen, so glad you edited your post, lol! This was great for me to read. I have not been able to get anywhere with writing until this spring when I hired someone to teach it for me. Ds got a GREAT start, and I feel hopeful that we can get somewhere next year.

 

But I wanted to ask -- about your comment that in WWE kids do 2- to 3-sentence narrations by the end of 4th grade -- in what level of WWE do they get to that point?

 

Thanks!!

[lmartin]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, but so glad to find this thread. I've just listened to the middle school and high school mp3s and reread the beginning of WWE. SWB talks about using a diagnostic to determine where to start older relunctant writers and the first thing recommended is to ask them what they want to write. My son would say - nothing. He would choose to not write anything. So I don't get this. Also, she talks about not having the student write creatively, so I don't understand this for that reason as well. I am not being contrary - I really want to follow her plan whether it means my son start in one of the first four levels or closer to where he should be gradewise. I really want to start him at the right place developmentally. Can anyone offer any suggestions here?

 

The second part of the diagnostic, I totally understand and don't think I'll have any trouble figuring out where he fits there.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

Lorri in Germany

[Colleen in NS]

Where are all the pre-writing, rough draft, final version stuff we were all taught.

 

Here is how I think about it:

 

Prewriting = come up with ideas and put them on paper = all that copywork/dictation plus narration practice in the early grades

 

rough draft = kid practicing writing narration or outline or rewrite from outline on his own

 

final version = kid practicing this after you and child edit the middle grade child's narration or outline or rewrite

 

I guess it's sort of the same, but it's laid out differently. You spend a few years learning how to prewrite. Then a few years learning how to write a rough draft and a final version, then a few years using all three of those skills a few times per week. But along the way, you've had lots of practice in each of these steps, but one step at a time.

 

But I wanted to ask -- about your comment that in WWE kids do 2- to 3-sentence narrations by the end of 4th grade -- in what level of WWE do they get to that point?

 

When SWB said fourth grade, I believe she meant the end of WWE 4. So, it wouldn't have to be fourth grade - it could be later, if a student is reaching the WWE 4 skills later. The end of WWE 4 has the student writing 3-4 sentence narrations by himself. That's nothin' like what's in WTM!! Very freeing for me to see that when I bought WWE and then confirmed again when she mentioned it in the lectures (and even before that in her Writing Without Fear CD).

 

Hmm...I think I'm getting my numbers mixed up - I think in Writing Without Fear she said 2-3 sentences (I wrote that in my notes), and I'm seeing in WWE that it's 3-4 sentences. Oh wait! The WWF comment was targeted to BOYS. That's why I was so relieved!:lol: OK, so probably if you aimed for 2-4 grammatically correct, correctly spelled, punctuated, and spaced sentences, you're good. :D

 

SWB talks about using a diagnostic to determine where to start older relunctant writers and the first thing recommended is to ask them what they want to write. My son would say - nothing. He would choose to not write anything.

 

I vaguely remember this from the lecture I attended - I *think* it was to see if the older student had the ability yet to think of something (from something he'd read - not come up with his own story/poem) to write about, and if he didn't, then he'd need to start with some more basic skills (copywork/dictation and narration). And then you could look in WWE to figure out where to start him. I *think* that's what she meant, but I'm not positive. If your son would say "nothing," perhaps he needs to practice narration? It would certainly help him to start learning to come up with things to write about from his reading.

[JadeOrchidSong]

and am trying to getting used to it. I need to hear that MP3 lecture to get more details of the why and how behind this writing curriculum.

J

[angela&4boys]

I now have a plan for 5th grade writing next year. I cannot say how excited I am to get started! It is going to take a bit more planning than opening up a writing curricula, but this flows so much more with our other readings than a disjointed writing assignment.

 

Thanks again!

 

Thanks so much for posting this, Kathy. I finally feel like I have some direction in our home school. Writing has always been the proverbial thorn in my side. We just couldn't seem to get past written narrations.

 

I had read WWE before, but still felt somewhat aimless as far as practical application. We tried IEW, but our one ds found it too tedious. Between my purchase of The Well-Trained Mind, and listening to this lecture (prompted by your post), I finally have the confidence I need!

 

Many thanks to SWB! :)

[Night Elf]

I vaguely remember this from the lecture I attended - I *think* it was to see if the older student had the ability yet to think of something (from something he'd read - not come up with his own story/poem) to write about, and if he didn't, then he'd need to start with some more basic skills (copywork/dictation and narration).

 

:iagree: Coming up with something out of thin air is difficult, and I'm fairly certain she didn't mean to just have the student pick a topic and run with it. That direction wouldn't make sense with the writing plan that comes after being able to do this. (gosh, does that make sense?) My dd18 has that type of assignment and she spent days procrastinating because she didn't know what to write about!

 

The idea with narration for the younger children (and those children who just haven't yet encountered it) is that the parent has to lead with specific questions. What was that passage about? Who was it about? What did they do? Those types of questions. A child who is used to doing those narrations might be more inclined to know those are the questions they should answer.

 

As for the question about creative writing, it is difficult for people who cannot write creatively. That idea is totally against the grain of writing in schools. There are educators who believe that creative writing is a learned skill but I disagree. Instead, it is a frustrating exercise. The child can spend so much time worrying about what they are going to write that they stop paying attention to how it goes on paper. There are already so many skills in play that adding in the stressful "What will I write about" can be pure torture. My ds13 can write rather well although he doesn't feel confident about his skills. However, he freezes when he's asked to write creatively. Examples would be writing a story, rewriting the ending of a story, or pretending to live in another time and write a journal. I personally believe that creative writing serves the theory that more writing = quality writing. I had a teacher grade a journal once. I got a 'D' because I didn't write deep thoughts. I still don't get that.

[Night Elf]

I was thinking about my previous response and realized that I was giving the impression that students never need to write creatively. That isn't true. High school requires some creative writing. But no amount of creative writing in the elementary and middle school years has made my son comfortable with it. It is what it is, and it's a struggle for him. I can't remember what SWB says specifically about creative writing in the rhetoric stage but I do remember there being some reference to it at some point. I know I remember her saying the first two stages don't require original writing.

[Colleen in NS]

I can't remember what SWB says specifically about creative writing in the rhetoric stage but I do remember there being some reference to it at some point. I know I remember her saying the first two stages don't require original writing.

 

I think she differentiates creative writing vs. your-own-original-writing. Creative writing would be coming up with a story, a poem, a song, etc.. Original writing would be coming up with your own thoughts, in a persuasive paper (after all those narration/outling/rewriting skills are learned), on your reading about, say, the Civil War, or about some aspect of the fall of Rome. Your own opinions about these events, these people, these issues, these literature books - not just narrating about them or outlining them.

 

Creative writing is original - I just think when she said original, she meant something different.

[MomLovesClassics]

My 7 year old loves poetry. She gets inspired by learning and reciting poems. She wrote short 5 poems Friday. We promised to get her a beautiful book she could keep them in. It is so cute, she will tell us the title and read it to us. I am amazed that she decided to do that on her own. That is fun for her.

I just downloaded the writing lectures today. My husband promised to listen. He seems to be more interested, and taking a more active role lately. I am proud of him. I can't wait to listen to the lectures again without the kids interupting and making noise.

[DianeJM]

Thanks everyone for this valuable discussion and the hot tip on these MP3 lectures.

Great stuff!!! Gives me encouragement.

[JMDRAD]

I now have a plan for 5th grade writing next year. I cannot say how excited I am to get started! It is going to take a bit more planning than opening up a writing curricula, but this flows so much more with our other readings than a disjointed writing assignment.

 

Thanks again!

 

I listened to her elementary writing talk and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also downloaded The Joy of Classical Ed, What I would do differently, and the Science one. After listening several times to each of these I really feel like I've got some clear cut plans and goals in mind. Before I KNEW where I wanted to end up by 12th grade but I was having difficulty figuring out how to get there. I sat down last weekend and wrote out every subject I was required by state to teach and every subject I planned to cover. Then I wrote down what curriculum I planned to use. After much thought I wrote out my goals for the end of second grade. Of course these are flexible but they give me something to shoot for anyways. :D

[angela&4boys]

I also downloaded The Joy of Classical Ed, What I would do differently, and the Science one. After listening several times to each of these I really feel like I've got some clear cut plans and goals in mind.... :D

 

Now I have to listen to these too! Off to PHP to purchase and download... :auto:

[babysparkler]

Anyone know if there is a transcript version of the MP3's?

[JMDRAD]

Anyone know if there is a transcript version of the MP3's?

 

 

Word for word transcript?? Not sure but check out this link. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/article-index/#Great%20Books

 

It contains a wealth of information!!:D