Classical Conversations for Young Children

[thegeyser]

First, let me be very clear that I am not intending to bash Classical Conversations. I would like to have a rather honest discussion of the challenges I personally experienced with my children when we participated a year ago in and the wisdom in electing to do it again next year when he is six. We took a year off this year for him to "grow up," but now I am wondering if the intense drilling is helpful when it is introduced completely out of context for most children this young. I have another DS who will be 4 in July who would be obligated to participate in the 4 y.o class.

 

When my DS was 4 we were a part of our local CC. He was not very interested in the memory work part of the program, but the Veritas Press timeline cards did wonders for improving his speech (Try saying Ahmenhotep IV and Monotheism really fast 3 times :001_smile:). Trying to make him do memory work every morning took a long time, because he did not care about anything other than the VP cards. It was like pulling teeth, but I wasn't doing much other official school at that time. He memorized about 60 of them and lost interest entirely. He would learn the history sentence, but showed little interest in the hand signs, etc. The grammar jingles were tough for me to learn, and again, he did not care. My child did not know numbers over 20 even existed, so the math skip counting songs were tough and I ended up feeling like we were already "behind" in homeschooling. The tutor was asking children to read the numbers off the board. Latin vocabulary...a joke. Science facts didn't register either. So by the end of CC, I had given up any effort at trying to review memory work at home. The tutor also had little expectation that he would ever remember anything, because he never got the answers when they played review games.

 

While DS has come a long way this year in school (he reads well now, etc.), I am wondering if I jumped too soon to register him for CC. We have recently started First Language Lessons, and he has quickly learned the poetry and simple definitions. No pulling teeth. But it was taught within a context. I have ordered the book Living Memory to see if it includes more info on what memory work at the grammar stage can look like if done without a group. If I choose to do our memory work solo, I don't want to use the CC selections. I would want to memorize less and at a slower pace.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts regarding young children in CC. I know the grammar stage is for memorization, but is the fast-paced drill work appropriate for the 4-6 year olds? I have been praying about the wisdom of registering my children. My husband does not think the amount of time away from the home and the additional stress it adds to our weekly school work will be worth what he "gets" out of the program. He thinks I already "know" what I need to do. Nonetheless, I would love some insight from others... While I can see the benefits of CC for older children in the grammar stage, I am having trouble seeing the wisdom in doing it with young children. Help me to better understand memory work for young children in the grammar stage. Am I just scared of having a repeat of our initial experience? If so, is it an ungrounded fear? Thank you!

[kathkath]

I have the same reservations. I went to our local group and was actually impressed at how engaged the small children were, even though they were wiggly.

 

Actually the biggest red flag for me was at the parent meeting when they explained how the elementary age cc came about. Apparently LB started teaching challenge to the older kids and was frustrated by what they *didn't* know, so that's what prompted her to channel the info-memorizing down to the littles. Their curriculum is driven by what she wants middle schoolers to know, not by what is best for littles at that developmental stage. No one who *knows* young children has taken part in writing their curriculum. I'm also suspect that one person has written it all. How can one person possibly be skilled enough to consider all that is necessary for writing curricula for such a broad age span? As hsers we can't expect to know that ourselves so we rely more on the expertise of the authors to guide us. I am not convinced of the expertise regarding young children. I hope that this isn't too strong--these are just my dh's and my personal concerns and reasons why we are less likely to participate. We still may do it as long as it doesn't *hurt.*

 

Our family is marginally considering CC next year but we probably won't write the check.

[shanvan]

but can't find my old post. I strongly disagree with CC's approach for young children (but I'm not especially fond of it for older ones either).

 

For young children I think it's too much, too soon. When I was approached to join CC three years ago I looked at the materials and decided it would encroach upon my time with dd -- time we could use to bake together, go horseback riding, train the dogs, take hikes and bike rides, curl up on the couch and read good books, paint and draw, garden, etc. I want her homeschooling to be a happy and relaxed experience that builds relationships within the family, and introduces her to all the wonderful things there are to learn in the world balanced with a solid and well rounded education.

 

I also thought it would encroach upon my freedom to design DDs education according to what I know she needs. I don't want her feeling pressured and stressed to memorize just for the sake of meeting CC's expectations. We do memory work, but I choose it and I make it appropriate to her learning where she is right now-- not what she will need years from now.

 

I worry about kids who have difficulty learning or LDs who may be frustrated by CC's expectations. The two women who approached me both had issues with their children hating school. They seemed bent on trying to rush their children into doing something impressive at an early age. Their children were not experiencing the joy of learning in any way. Those women were going to be the directors, so I knew it wouldn't be a good fit for us.

 

I'm also not meaning to bash CC, because I have know families who can make it work very well. But, in the wrong hands and with the wrong motives it can make a child's life very unpleasant.

[LisainVirginia]

I think your answer depends on a few things, and I hope you will get wisdom from your prayer.

 

1. What are you hoping to get out of CC? If it's mostly social and you want to connect with other moms who are trying to do classical education, then it might be worth the time and $$. Just lighten up on expectations at home. And, this assumes your DC won't be upset by the fact that they don't know everything during review. If it kills their joy of learning and confidence to sit in there week after week not remembering stuff and if they say they don't want to go in the AM, then you may need a different group.

 

2. What is the personality of the potential tutor? I had two kids in CC this past year and we are signed up for next year (though I continue to wonder and pray if it's the right thing). Both of their tutors (Abecedarian and Apprentice) were VERY appropriate in their expectations of the children at that age level, focusing more on classroom behavior (getting up to do a presentation, being quiet during others') and joy of learning, hands-on type presentation rather than relentless drill.

 

Hope that helps you think about it a bit...though maybe you've already thought through that and are still stuck! I think the hardest thing about this homeschooling journey is that no one else knows what's best for your family - only you - and sometimes the only way to figure that out is to just try something.

[Karis]

First, let me be very clear that I am not intending to bash Classical Conversations. I would like to have a rather honest discussion of the challenges I personally experienced with my children when we participated a year ago in and the wisdom in electing to do it again next year when he is six. We took a year off this year for him to "grow up," but now I am wondering if the intense drilling is helpful when it is introduced completely out of context for most children this young. I have another DS who will be 4 in July who would be obligated to participate in the 4 y.o class.

 

When my DS was 4 we were a part of our local CC. He was not very interested in the memory work part of the program, but the Veritas Press timeline cards did wonders for improving his speech (Try saying Ahmenhotep IV and Monotheism really fast 3 times :001_smile:). Trying to make him do memory work every morning took a long time, because he did not care about anything other than the VP cards. It was like pulling teeth, but I wasn't doing much other official school at that time. He memorized about 60 of them and lost interest entirely. He would learn the history sentence, but showed little interest in the hand signs, etc. The grammar jingles were tough for me to learn, and again, he did not care. My child did not know numbers over 20 even existed, so the math skip counting songs were tough and I ended up feeling like we were already "behind" in homeschooling. The tutor was asking children to read the numbers off the board. Latin vocabulary...a joke. Science facts didn't register either. So by the end of CC, I had given up any effort at trying to review memory work at home. The tutor also had little expectation that he would ever remember anything, because he never got the answers when they played review games.

 

While DS has come a long way this year in school (he reads well now, etc.), I am wondering if I jumped too soon to register him for CC. We have recently started First Language Lessons, and he has quickly learned the poetry and simple definitions. No pulling teeth. But it was taught within a context. I have ordered the book Living Memory to see if it includes more info on what memory work at the grammar stage can look like if done without a group. If I choose to do our memory work solo, I don't want to use the CC selections. I would want to memorize less and at a slower pace.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts regarding young children in CC. I know the grammar stage is for memorization, but is the fast-paced drill work appropriate for the 4-6 year olds? I have been praying about the wisdom of registering my children. My husband does not think the amount of time away from the home and the additional stress it adds to our weekly school work will be worth what he "gets" out of the program. He thinks I already "know" what I need to do. Nonetheless, I would love some insight from others... While I can see the benefits of CC for older children in the grammar stage, I am having trouble seeing the wisdom in doing it with young children. Help me to better understand memory work for young children in the grammar stage. Am I just scared of having a repeat of our initial experience? If so, is it an ungrounded fear? Thank you!

 

 

I wouldn't do it.

 

 

I (personally) would wait until BOTH children are older and can REALLY benefit from participating in the program. You can simply do some stuff at home and when they're older and can join with friends - it's an added bonus. They'll have a head start so to speak.

 

Who knows, by that time maybe you'll have changed your mind altogether about CC but they'll still have had some good exposure to the memory work.

 

It would be good for the younger classes to be more appropriate for little people. More memory games and songs explaining "who" and showing "where" - maybe do an interactive timeline for "when."

 

I chose to wait and see how the program would benefit ME and MY plans. It's an extra. But I have children who retain information well and are at ages where they would really benefit from CC.

 

Why do you feel conflicted? It sounds like you are not happy with the program from the start. Save your money and do Living Memory. Or else you'll end up complaining about what you don't like or how it's too much or not what you'd prefer to do. Why stress over it?

 

It's easy to create your own thing. Just get a couple of friends together and do it! ;)

 

I'm getting Living Memory when I can. It sounds like a great resource.

[chadzwife]

WOW, a 4yo doing all that? My my.

Well I would say that was the problem in a nutshell. I like memory work, but that's a bit young for all that and that much length of time everyday. I wouldn't start that type of stuff till 7 or 8. But that's my 2cents!

Especially him being an exceedingly normal boy, he just wasn't wired for it yet. Makes me wonder if most kids need to do this. Cultural literacy is one thing (it's the gut of classical training after all) but endless details are not literacy.

Look at Bible study...you start reading them bible stories at 6 mos, memorizing verses at 2. By 12yo, they're critiquing it and internalizing it. By 18 they're teaching others and impacting their world (hopefully) YEARS Of study there. Not just rush rush in a few short yrs.

So what DO you want ur kids to excel in? Knowing Greek lit? Knowing the battles of the Amer Revolution? The royalty of England? The names of all the elements in the periodic table?

YOU may want one of these things I listed. Can we really have it all tho? By age 7?

These are things I think about.

Classical Convos looks nice, but I wouldn't start it till later. Maybe those middle school yrs are the ones to memorize all that stuff and you just have to delay high school some. GASP--not finish EARLY? --not finish "on time"? What the heck is on time anyway...who decided it was 18?????

See; I think about *lots* of things. LOL

[musicianmom]

I've chosen not to do it for my dd, and I'm a big fan of letting kids go as far as they can academically, even before K. But CC didn't put things in context enough to suit me, and the previous poster's statement that the author's focus is on preparing for middle school explains a lot.

[Gratia271]

Please correct my perceptions of what you said if I totally missed it... What I heard in your message is that your son wasn't really engaged in the program, completely lost interest, the tutor didn't really work with him or expect him to get any of it, and you ultimately question their approach to younger kids...

 

I would personally walk away from any program where my child's interest in learning flatlined. I would also walk away from any program that seems dismissive of children because they don't fit in the program's paradigm. If you and your dh question their methods with young children, don't pursue it. I have personally walked away from many groups because of their treatment toward young children. Your children have the rest of their lives to learn and to memorize. IMO, young children need to be drawn into a love of learning foremost (and this is not a euphemism for letting them do whatever they want). Now some middle schoolers and high schooler do need a forward thrust in the right direction, but the first priority for me when my children were little was to promote a love of learning as well as a sense of accomplishment. If any program undermined that, I walked away.

 

I hope that helps a little.

[Karis]

Please correct my perceptions of what you said if I totally missed it... What I heard in your message is that your son wasn't really engaged in the program, completely lost interest, the tutor didn't really work with him or expect him to get any of it, and you ultimately question their approach to younger kids...

 

I would personally walk away from any program where my child's interest in learning flatlined. I would also walk away from any program that seems dismissive of children because they don't fit in the program's paradigm. If you and your dh question their methods with young children, don't pursue it. I have personally walked away from many groups because of their treatment toward young children. Your children have the rest of their lives to learn and to memorize. IMO, young children need to be drawn into a love of learning foremost (and this is not a euphemism for letting them do whatever they want). Now some middle schoolers and high schooler do need a forward thrust in the right direction, but the first priority for me when my children were little was to promote a love of learning as well as a sense of accomplishment. If any program undermined that, I walked away.

 

I hope that helps a little.

 

 

:iagree:

 

CC for little guys is a lot. BUt you KNOW there are some parents who feel compelled to create little geniuses and they'll push, push, push!! And they will adopt any philosophical or educational model that LOOKS like it will help them achieve that goal.

 

When they are younger, children have such a love of learning and discovery. And you want that sense of enjoyment in learning to continue. Anything that stifles or squelches that is a NO GO!!

 

(Or that you don't feel settled about or satisfied with)

[Chris in VA]

I'd wait until 7 or 8. Still grammar stage, still el primo time to memorize, but a little more mature.

 

I think CC is a wonderful program.

[Terabith]

My oldest did it this year. She was five turning six this year.

 

Honestly, while I think CC is a great program, it's rather ridiculous. I'm just not interested in my five year old spouting off so much information with absolutely NO context. I believe in memorization, and even some memory work that isn't all that contextualized is fine. I have no problem with my dd memorizing prepositions, presidents, states, stuff like that. Some of the science is fine, because I can give a quick explanation that provides some context. But the sheer quantity of it, with no understanding, seems rather ridiculous to me. Anna asked what a radius was once in class, when they were memorizing the formula for the area of a circle. Her tutor told her she would have to ask that at home. The explanation took about 30 seconds when we did it, but I sorta got the impression her tutor wasn't sure herself. The sitting and focus asked of these kids is massively developmentally inappropriate, I think.

 

However, we did it, and we're doing it again next year. We're doing it for socialization, because Anna desperately wants to be part of a "class." She wants a community and a place to feel like it's "her school." She loves the fact there are consistent relationships and they get to play on the playground after lunch. If there was a less intense co-op around here, we would probably do that, but CC is pretty much it around here for little kids. There are kids in Anna's class (ages 4-6) who practice at home and know it ALL, however.

 

I do like that you can do as much or as little as you choose. We listen to the cd in the car, but we don't really practice anything outside of class. I'm just not willing to do that. I figure that anything she learns is a bonus, but the focus of my homeschool at this point is reading, math, and handwriting. We do science and history and geography through listening to books read aloud on topics, occasional experiments, and Montessori maps.

[bry's-gal]

We did CC this last year and I'm signing us up again for this year. It is a lot to learn for the little ones and it is not appropriate for every little one. My eldest (5) enjoys it and I don't push to memorize everything each week. I review what I feel is important or what she seems interested in- if she doesn't get it all, no big deal- she is 5. We all look forward to going so it fits our family.

 

Now my youngest will be turning 4 about a month after CC starts. I could sign her up for class or keep her in the nursery. Hubby and I decided to keep her in the nursery for now and re-evaluate in Jan. She is not ready for it and it would stress her out- not worth it!

 

Consider your expectations- do you expect your children to memorize it all? What do you want you and family to get out of CC? Can the same goals be met another way? If you have serious doubts, don't do it. It's not worth the battles at that young age!

[newlifemom]

I think one of the things you want to consider is the focus of the class. Some of the pps mentioned what are your expectations. I started out last year thinking it a perfect supplement to my hs and filling in the one gaping hole to classically educating my dc, memory work. Last year, we did it I did not push memory work with my dc. [10, 6, 5 at the time] This year we did it again, and I purposed to work a little harder on practicing the mw every day. I have two who will are on track for being memory masters. The material is out of context for the younger two, but I have to say, as we hit it in SOTW vol II [which is in keeping for 2nd grade] they are having wonderful "aha!" moments. My 4 year old has memorized a lot of things just by osmosis. She will join next year. Now if my oldest was 4, I don't know if I would do it.

 

In helping my dd, 11, do her timeline I am able to say things to her that you need to have the printing press before the reformation and she is getting it, so even at this young age, she is able to understand this timeline of events as she is learning it.

 

CC is like any other curriculum/co-op choice. There are going to be things you like about it and things you don't. If the things you like outweigh the things you don't, then . . . and vice-versa. There are things I like about Saxon and things I don't. I have heard many people say they like R&S but wish it wasn't so religious. You have to decide what is best for you family. :001_smile:

 

 

FTR, dd, 6, tried for memory masters. [all of them on their own accord. I did not and will not push them for that] She couldn't make it although she tried really hard. I am proud of her. She has learned so much and loves it.

HTH

[KLA]

I'll offer a little different perspective. We really enjoyed CC when my kids were younger - I considered it like "Kindergarten", and all I did at home was early Math and phonics and everything else was with CC. It was nice in my first years of homeschooling to not feel the pressure on my own to do a ton. However, I didn't have too many expectations. They actually surprised me with how much they memorized and how much they retained. And for us things weren't out of context, but more in sound bites that my kids enjoyed. The tutors would explain enough to frame basically what they were learning. We studied some things more in depth at home, but not everything.

 

I think the biggest benefit was a "big picture" for learning. For example, they memorized the layers of the atmosphere in science. One day over a year later we were driving at night and my son said, "I wonder what layers of the atmosphere the stars are in?" So the point was, he didn't remember every single name of each layer, but he remembered that there are layers and then actually thought about the fact that the stars must be in one of them. They got an introduction to the subjects of school and a vocabulary associated with each subject. So the next time we talked about an atmosphere, he had heard the word and was familiar with it a little. They got a vision for the history timeline, an understanding of world geography and they learned their skip counting. In addition, it was a great introduction to learning, listening, public speaking (show and tell each week) and the world around them in general.

 

I'm not trying to talk you into it, If your heart isn't in it, then it's not worth the money. We actually don't participate in the program anymore. I just wanted to share how we benefitted from the program when my kids were young.

 

Blessings as you make your decision.

KLA

dd10, ds11, dd1