Mother not informed that her daughter left school for an abortion

[Mergath]

I had an acquaintance who got pregnant when she was a teenager. She gave that child up for adoption. She went on to college, married, and had two beautiful children by the time I met her. She chose to keep in touch with her adopted child and their family. It was amazing and beautiful.

 

That is a better outcome for everyone involved. I do not think it is judgmental to plainly state that some choices are better than others.

 

The problem with that, however, is the assumption that what you consider the "better choice" will be better for everyone. Unfortunately, not all those who give their baby up for adoption have such a happy ending. Some women never get over it, and deal with depression and other mental health issues for life. Some women can't stop drinking/using drugs while pregnant and bring into the world a child with profound disabilities who will never have any kind of quality of life, and the baby ends up in foster care instead of with a loving, permanent family.

 

There is no one option that will be right for everyone, which is why we need to continue to expand women's options, not take choices away. I don't like abortion, and at the point I'm at now wouldn't have one, but I would never dream of telling another woman what she should or shouldn't do with her body.

[EthiopianFood]

There is a LOT of disinformation/misinformation out there (I have a book from the 80's that is just FILLED with information about how the two most popular forms of BC are really just a monthly abortion), mind you there were no actual studies behind it, just assumptions... but oh the guilt!

 

To be fair, if a person believes that a fertilized egg at any stage is already a baby, then taking any form of hormonal birth control is allowing for an abortion. Not everyone believes this situation meets the definition of human life though (those that do seem to be on the fringe), so I feel badly for those who don't get the full explaination.

 

Some of the most "rabid" pro-life groups are against ANY exceptions for abortion...and some people mistakenly believe that a woman's body takes care of IUFD on its own (sometimes it does not).

 

It's just sad...

 

There are rabid people on both sides, and I think they make the rest of us who are attempting to be diplomatic and reasonable look very bad. :glare:

[Orthodox6]

"Fringe" is a word often coupled with "irrational". Not cool.

 

Information only. Neither attack nor argument. The Orthodox Church, which is my spiritual home, always has taught that life begins at conception (aka fertilization of the egg). The Church considers this a baby -- a human being with all rights pertaining. The historical, traditional Church teaching also prohibits any form of birth control other than abstinence. Only in the late 20th century did some Orthodox teachers start trying to change beliefs for this topic.

 

I'm not going to relegate a huge chunk of humanity, then, to "lunatic fringe" status.

 

Elective abortion is allowed by the Church only if the mother's physical life is at stake. Still is considered a sin, and still is something to grieve deeply over. But there is not an absolute prohibition at all costs.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Orthodox6

[lionfamily1999]

You imagine, but you do not know. Most abortions are no more complicated than a D&C. In fact it is the same procedure performed on a woman for a "missed abortion" which is the medical term for miscarriage when the contents are not spontaneously expelled. General anesthesia is not even necessary.

And how many teenagers, do you think, would expect their abortion to be the equivalent of a heavy period? That was my point. I've never had an abortion, I would expect it to be a very violent, bloody ordeal. I imagine some teenagers would expect the same thing. As much as a doctor might say it should only be a heavy period, they also tend to say, "you're going to feel a little pressure" and that "little pressure" tends to be a little more than pressure.

 

So, I would expect an already scared teenage girl to assume that hemmoraging is normal. I would expect her to be unsurprised if she suddenly got a fever. I think it would more likely to think something's wrong if it went smooth as could be. Something like that, you wouldn't expect it to be easy, I wouldn't think.

 

So, again, you have a scared teenager that didn't want to admit to her parents she was pregnant in the first place, what're the odds she's going to admit if something goes wrong? It seems like a terribly dangerous practice to allow a teenager to have this sort of procedure without anyone there to keep an eye on them.

[Mergath]

And how many teenagers, do you think, would expect their abortion to be the equivalent of a heavy period? That was my point. I've never had an abortion, I would expect it to be a very violent, bloody ordeal. I imagine some teenagers would expect the same thing. As much as a doctor might say it should only be a heavy period, they also tend to say, "you're going to feel a little pressure" and that "little pressure" tends to be a little more than pressure.

 

So, I would expect an already scared teenage girl to assume that hemmoraging is normal. I would expect her to be unsurprised if she suddenly got a fever. I think it would more likely to think something's wrong if it went smooth as could be. Something like that, you wouldn't expect it to be easy, I wouldn't think.

 

So, again, you have a scared teenager that didn't want to admit to her parents she was pregnant in the first place, what're the odds she's going to admit if something goes wrong? It seems like a terribly dangerous practice to allow a teenager to have this sort of procedure without anyone there to keep an eye on them.

 

I think you're underestimating today's teenagers. Between the information provided by the doctor- which I'm sure would be fairly extensive- and what you can find on the internet, I'd think most teenagers would have a good idea what to expect. And the doctor is going to give them a list of symptoms that require immediate medical attention. It's not as if the girl is going to go home and bleed out without wondering if something might be wrong.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

And how many teenagers, do you think, would expect their abortion to be the equivalent of a heavy period? That was my point. I've never had an abortion, I would expect it to be a very violent, bloody ordeal. I imagine some teenagers would expect the same thing. As much as a doctor might say it should only be a heavy period, they also tend to say, "you're going to feel a little pressure" and that "little pressure" tends to be a little more than pressure.

 

So, I would expect an already scared teenage girl to assume that hemmoraging is normal. I would expect her to be unsurprised if she suddenly got a fever. I think it would more likely to think something's wrong if it went smooth as could be. Something like that, you wouldn't expect it to be easy, I wouldn't think.

 

So, again, you have a scared teenager that didn't want to admit to her parents she was pregnant in the first place, what're the odds she's going to admit if something goes wrong? It seems like a terribly dangerous practice to allow a teenager to have this sort of procedure without anyone there to keep an eye on them.

 

Well, you could expect quite a lot of things, until you were educated otherwise. Healthcare professionals will educate patients.

[EthiopianFood]

"Fringe" is a word often coupled with "irrational". Not cool.

 

...

 

I'm not going to relegate a huge chunk of humanity, then, to "lunatic fringe" status.

 

Me neither. ;)

[Tea Time]

I don't like abortion, and at the point I'm at now wouldn't have one,...

 

That is wonderful to hear.

 

Sorry if that was not the main point of your post. Forgive me for taking out a small part of what you were saying that doesn't really address your main idea and commenting on just that part. Hope you don't mind!

 

Best wishes!~

 

I'm heading out of town, and this is likely going to digress. And it has gotten off topic, too. Sorry for my part in that.

 

I would still like to know how abortions on minors who do not have parental consent are funded though.

[Aggie]

The problem with that, however, is the assumption that what you consider the "better choice" will be better for everyone. Unfortunately, not all those who give their baby up for adoption have such a happy ending. Some women never get over it, and deal with depression and other mental health issues for life. Some women can't stop drinking/using drugs while pregnant and bring into the world a child with profound disabilities who will never have any kind of quality of life, and the baby ends up in foster care instead of with a loving, permanent family.

 

There is no one option that will be right for everyone, which is why we need to continue to expand women's options, not take choices away. I don't like abortion, and at the point I'm at now wouldn't have one, but I would never dream of telling another woman what she should or shouldn't do with her body.

 

Unfortunately, post-abortive women *often* deal with these issues, only magnified. There are support groups now for women who have had abortions because the guilt of that permanent decision (often done without education and in a spontaneous manner) is almost unbearable for them.

 

And foster care isn't ALL unloving and temporary, either.

[asta]

The problem with that, however, is the assumption that what you consider the "better choice" will be better for everyone. Unfortunately, not all those who give their baby up for adoption have such a happy ending. Some women never get over it, and deal with depression and other mental health issues for life. Some women can't stop drinking/using drugs while pregnant and bring into the world a child with profound disabilities who will never have any kind of quality of life, and the baby ends up in foster care instead of with a loving, permanent family.

 

There is no one option that will be right for everyone, which is why we need to continue to expand women's options, not take choices away. I don't like abortion, and at the point I'm at now wouldn't have one, but I would never dream of telling another woman what she should or shouldn't do with her body.

 

I was thinking a bit about this yesterday. How do you explain to a young teenager that, if she doesn't have enough folic acid, her kid may get spina bifida? Or that refusing to quit partying will lead to fetal alcohol syndrome? Those are just two things off the top of my head that would put a baby squarely into the "good luck getting adopted" column in my book.

 

 

a

[Tea Time]

I am pro-life in the consistent way, so I also do not believe in capital punishment, but if a society decides it is going to go there, then I would also be there to remind it constantly of the grave nature of this path, and that it must never, never forget capital punishment (a nice word for killing a person) is anything but the lesser of two evils. It must never forget its own partaking of evil, even if it is doing so for the sake of good. You see?

 

Sadly, I think that our culture goes beyond wanting to make abortion regrettable but safe and legal and wants to totally remove any stigma and allow people to boldly and arrogantly flaunt it. Big, big difference. I will never say that is okay.

 

Apparently not.

 

Asta, you strike me as being very smart and very open minded. It disappoints me that you also were unwilling to engage the deeper ideas in my post. :confused:

 

I would never dream of telling another woman what she should or shouldn't do with her body.

 

Are you sure? Because plenty of people who are pro-choice would. They are just telling different people different things. For example, they would take no issue with telling someone to pay their hard earned money to provide these kinds of abortions. They are willing to insist that health care providers provide their brand of "health care." Telling people these things is not only telling them what to do with their bodies, it is telling them that all day long every day.

 

And they are quite comfortable voting to give the gov't power to make people do things, too. CHOICE is a great word, but it is predicated on the freedom to make choices. It is wise for everyone to remember that.

 

Oversimplifying things is convenient but not honest. And both sides of this debate routinely forget that.

 

I was thinking a bit about this yesterday. How do you explain to a young teenager that, if she doesn't have enough folic acid, her kid may get spina bifida? Or that refusing to quit partying will lead to fetal alcohol syndrome? Those are just two things off the top of my head that would put a baby squarely into the "good luck getting adopted" column in my book.

 

 

a

 

I was thinking last night, too. I wondered how you explain that sweeping moral choices by a society have real consequences? How do you explain that the horrific story about a teen having a baby in a bathroom and throwing it in a trash can is directly linked with a culture that has clearly told that teen at some level that human life is "just a bunch of tissue." From the perspective of a youngster, her behavior makes perfect sense when she understands that underlying message. How do you ever get through that when we make policy on faulty principles that lift up expedience over morality that we never solve problems we just create a whole new level of pain and suffering?

 

Well, I don't think you can do anything to MAKE anyone believe anything. But you can keep talking about it and trying. You can make sure people hear all sides (complex as they might be). You can keep caring and trying. And hopefully you will refrain from stepping over the line and coercing.

 

The point of my post was about the fact that while abortion might be a reasonable choice in the most extreme circumstances (when the ability or willingness to find a better alternative is not found), it does not follow that it is a reasonable choice in a huge number of abortions that currently are treated as perfectly acceptable "choices." And simply pointing that out is not judgmental, and it is not telling people what to do with their bodies.

 

To take the most extreme cases and make the rules all based on those has unintended consequences. It does not eliminate all possible pain and suffering as one might suggest that it does.

[Mejane]

 

Sadly, I think that our culture goes beyond wanting to make abortion regrettable but safe and legal and wants to totally remove any stigma and allow people to boldly and arrogantly flaunt it. Big, big difference. I will never say that is okay.

 

 

 

On what do you base this? I know several women who have had abortions; none of them went about wearing t-shirts proclaiming so. None tried to convince me it was the thing to do. None were giddy over their procedure. It was the best option for them at the time, that is all.

[Mejane]

 

I recognize that you consider me disrespectful. I also recognize your freedom to think so.

 

I'm not pointing fingers. I was simply hoping to keep civil discussions from becoming name-calling ban-and-delete fests.

[TXMary2]

:thumbup:

Apparently not.

 

Asta, you strike me as being very smart and very open minded. It disappoints me that you also were unwilling to engage the deeper ideas in my post. :confused:

 

 

 

Are you sure? Because plenty of people who are pro-choice would. They are just telling different people different things. For example, they would take no issue with telling someone to pay their hard earned money to provide these kinds of abortions. They are willing to insist that health care providers provide their brand of "health care." Telling people these things is not only telling them what to do with their bodies, it is telling them that all day long every day.

 

And they are quite comfortable voting to give the gov't power to make people do things, too. CHOICE is a great word, but it is predicated on the freedom to make choices. It is wise for everyone to remember that.

 

Oversimplifying things is convenient but not honest. And both sides of this debate routinely forget that.

 

 

 

I was thinking last night, too. I wondered how you explain that sweeping moral choices by a society have real consequences? How do you explain that the horrific story about a teen having a baby in a bathroom and throwing it in a trash can is directly linked with a culture that has clearly told that teen at some level that human life is "just a bunch of tissue." From the perspective of a youngster, her behavior makes perfect sense when she understands that underlying message. How do you ever get through that when we make policy on faulty principles that lift up expedience over morality that we never solve problems we just create a whole new level of pain and suffering?

 

Well, I don't think you can do anything to MAKE anyone believe anything. But you can keep talking about it and trying. You can make sure people hear all sides (complex as they might be). You can keep caring and trying. And hopefully you will refrain from stepping over the line and coercing.

 

The point of my post was about the fact that while abortion might be a reasonable choice in the most extreme circumstances (when the ability or willingness to find a better alternative is not found), it does not follow that it is a reasonable choice in a huge number of abortions that currently are treated as perfectly acceptable "choices." And simply pointing that out is not judgmental, and it is not telling people what to do with their bodies.

 

To take the most extreme cases and make the rules all based on those has unintended consequences. It does not eliminate all possible pain and suffering as one might suggest that it does.

[Rosy]

Well, you could expect quite a lot of things, until you were educated otherwise. Healthcare professionals will educate patients.

 

Apparently they won't--isn't that the whole point of this thread? :confused:

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Apparently they won't--isn't that the whole point of this thread? :confused:

 

I didn't see anything here stating that healthcare professionals did not (or at least did not attempt to) educate patients. :confused:

[Tea Time]

On what do you base this? I know several women who have had abortions; none of them went about wearing t-shirts proclaiming so. None tried to convince me it was the thing to do. None were giddy over their procedure. It was the best option for them at the time, that is all.

 

It is an impression I have gotten, a gut feeling based on many years of reading culture.

 

But in fact while this flippant attitude toward abortion still persists in some circles , it is in fact true that the number of people holding pro-life views is higher than ever. That is good news and proves only that the pro-life message has not been completely censored. Yet.

 

Perhaps this was the best option for the women you know. Perhaps it was not. Perhaps that is not for us to decide.

[Tea Time]

Apparently they won't--isn't that the whole point of this thread? :confused:

 

Yes, sort of. It was at least closely related. It was the point that this young lady was put in a very dangerous situation in order to avoid an imagined or possible dangerous situation.

 

I still wonder who paid for it. I might still get time to research that, but I have a feeling it will be a wild rabbit trail, and I have really not had enough time to go there.

[edithcrawley]

Are you sure? Because plenty of people who are pro-choice would. They are just telling different people different things. For example, they would take no issue with telling someone to pay their hard earned money to provide these kinds of abortions. They are willing to insist that health care providers provide their brand of "health care." Telling people these things is not only telling them what to do with their bodies, it is telling them that all day long every day.

 

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. Could you explain a bit further?

 

 

 

 

I was thinking last night, too. I wondered how you explain that sweeping moral choices by a society have real consequences? How do you explain that the horrific story about a teen having a baby in a bathroom and throwing it in a trash can is directly linked with a culture that has clearly told that teen at some level that human life is "just a bunch of tissue." From the perspective of a youngster, her behavior makes perfect sense when she understands that underlying message. How do you ever get through that when we make policy on faulty principles that lift up expedience over morality that we never solve problems we just create a whole new level of pain and suffering? [/Quote]

 

I wouldn't say that the teenager with the baby in the bathroom is directly linked with the culture you mention. People have had unwanted pregnancies since the dawn of time, and have gotten rid of babies that they didn't want since the dawn of time. Yes teens have probably heard that "human life is "just a bunch of tissue"", but they have also probably heard many more messages about how wonderful babies are. As for the teenager you mention, maybe she had not heard of the "Safe Haven" law (the one passed in most states that says you can drop off a baby at a hospital or other allowed location within 72? hours of birth with no questions asked). I agree that their is a lack of knowledge for teens regarding birth control and safe s*x. When I was in public high school (only a few years ago), we were only taught to remain abstinent. They didn't tell us anything about any sort of birth control methods, or what to do if you did become pregnant. I think that this lack of knowledge leads to a great number of teens having unwanted pregnancies.

The point of my post was about the fact that while abortion might be a reasonable choice in the most extreme circumstances (when the ability or willingness to find a better alternative is not found), it does not follow that it is a reasonable choice in a huge number of abortions that currently are treated as perfectly acceptable "choices." And simply pointing that out is not judgmental, and it is not telling people what to do with their bodies.

 

To take the most extreme cases and make the rules all based on those has unintended consequences. It does not eliminate all possible pain and suffering as one might suggest that it does.[/Quote]

 

I think that if we improve s*x education for teens in school, starting in middle or even late elementary, a large amount of abortions would probably be prevented. I am curious as to what counts as an acceptable "choice" in your mind then if most abortions (aside from life saving or extreme circumstance ones) are not a "perfectly acceptable choice"?

[Rosy]

I didn't see anything here stating that healthcare professionals did not (or at least did not attempt to) educate patients. :confused:

 

:blushing: Oops--I read "parents", not "patients". Apparently I need more coffee before responding to threads like this.

[wapiti]

I didn't see anything here stating that healthcare professionals did not (or at least did not attempt to) educate patients. :confused:

I'm just jumping in to this discussion without having read the whole thread, but patient education brings up the issue of informed consent. I wonder how a minor can legally consent to the procedure, since the broad parental consent form would not have included the specifics of the risks of the procedure, i.e., the parent did not give informed consent.

[asta]

Apparently not.

 

Asta, you strike me as being very smart and very open minded. It disappoints me that you also were unwilling to engage the deeper ideas in my post. :confused:

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Done now.

 

 

Have a nice weekend.

 

 

asta

[lionfamily1999]

I didn't see anything here stating that healthcare professionals did not (or at least did not attempt to) educate patients. :confused:

I am sure they try. The same ways parents try, and educators try. However, teens don't tend to be the best listeners, especially (ime) when it comes to 'private' issues.

[Mejane]

Perhaps this was the best option for the women you know. Perhaps it was not. Perhaps that is not for us to decide.

 

Exactly!

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I am sure they try. The same ways parents try, and educators try. However, teens don't tend to be the best listeners, especially (ime) when it comes to 'private' issues.

 

Well, patient noncompliance is a huge issue in healthcare, regardless of patient age, so I don't think "not listening" is restricted to teens.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, patient noncompliance is a huge issue in healthcare, regardless of patient age, so I don't think "not listening" is restricted to teens.

And isn't that why teens usually have their parents around for medical procedures, to help with compliance?

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

And isn't that why teens usually have their parents around for medical procedures, to help with compliance?

Really? Do you really want to go around in that circle again? I don't.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

:blushing: Oops--I read "parents", not "patients". Apparently I need more coffee before responding to threads like this.

 

No worries. :)

[Mergath]

Are you sure? Because plenty of people who are pro-choice would. They are just telling different people different things. For example, they would take no issue with telling someone to pay their hard earned money to provide these kinds of abortions. They are willing to insist that health care providers provide their brand of "health care." Telling people these things is not only telling them what to do with their bodies, it is telling them that all day long every day.

 

And they are quite comfortable voting to give the gov't power to make people do things, too. CHOICE is a great word, but it is predicated on the freedom to make choices. It is wise for everyone to remember that.

 

Oversimplifying things is convenient but not honest. And both sides of this debate routinely forget that.

 

I'm not sure what most of this has to do with the topic at hand. I don't really see how dragging in topics like HCR and politics is conducive to having a positive discussion about abortion. Maybe I'm misreading, but what I'm getting from what you said is basically, "Liberals suck more, nyah."

[KidsHappen]

buy . . . tp . . . or eggs in a store.

 

In what states can minors not buy tp or eggs? :confused:

[phathui5]

The mother had signed a consent form for her daughter to access care through the clinic.

 

Sounds like that was her first mistake.

[Tea Time]

I'm not sure what most of this has to do with the topic at hand. I don't really see how dragging in topics like HCR and politics is conducive to having a positive discussion about abortion. Maybe I'm misreading, but what I'm getting from what you said is basically, "Liberals suck more, nyah."

 

What would a positive discussion about abortion look like to you? I think everyone thinks the discussion is a good one when their own views prevail. I think they are good when the heart of the matter is reached. When I am compelled to think deeply and struggle to convey my ideas, that is good to me, even if my views do not prevail. Which is a good thing, because they hardy ever do prevail.

 

In addition I try to separate the actual ideas from the ideology with which it may have become attached.

 

If you really can't see the connect that I drew very clearly starting with your statement about telling people what to do with their bodies, then that is indeed a problem. But I think the right to abortion and many others rights stand or fall on the ability to see connections, and it serves the pro-choice cause if people do not see connections. And a population that cannot see connections is needed for some ideas to come to full fruit.

 

I do see the connection. Plenty of people do see the connection. Your refusal to see a connection will not affect the fact that there is one. I am very sorry that it contentious to point it out, but I figured that since there are some 80 pages of all manner of things on two or more health care threads a small link would not be unreasonable, but I do not do so to be offensive, snarky, or provocative.

 

Now, if this discussion is not allowed on a board that proclaims the virtues of classical education, then it proclaims those virtues in vain, because the entire point of a classical education is to participate in the great conversation which is all about connections.

 

All of this is just my own foolish opinion for which I am still, thankfully, entitled. I may be wrong about all of it and doing humanity great harm. If so, I ask you all for forgiveness. Have a great weekend everyone.

[Tea Time]

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. Could you explain a bit further?

 

 

I wouldn't say that the teenager with the baby in the bathroom is directly linked with the culture you mention. People have had unwanted pregnancies since the dawn of time, and have gotten rid of babies that they didn't want since the dawn of time. Yes teens have probably heard that "human life is "just a bunch of tissue"", but they have also probably heard many more messages about how wonderful babies are. As for the teenager you mention, maybe she had not heard of the "Safe Haven" law (the one passed in most states that says you can drop off a baby at a hospital or other allowed location within 72? hours of birth with no questions asked). I agree that their is a lack of knowledge for teens regarding birth control and safe s*x. When I was in public high school (only a few years ago), we were only taught to remain abstinent. They didn't tell us anything about any sort of birth control methods, or what to do if you did become pregnant. I think that this lack of knowledge leads to a great number of teens having unwanted pregnancies.

 

 

I think that if we improve s*x education for teens in school, starting in middle or even late elementary, a large amount of abortions would probably be prevented. I am curious as to what counts as an acceptable "choice" in your mind then if most abortions (aside from life saving or extreme circumstance ones) are not a "perfectly acceptable choice"?

 

Gosh darnit, I don't really have time to go into this (I am traveling and shouldn't even be on the computer! :D)

 

But I just really, really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for reading and thinking about my post and asking me excellent questions about the ideas I presented. It makes me positively giddy! :lol:

 

Maybe someone else will jump in here. The water is pretty deep though, so maybe not. I will try to follow up on it if you want though!

 

Take care!

[lionfamily1999]

In what states can minors not buy tp or eggs? :confused:

I think that's more seasonable. No minors can purchase eggs or tp here starting in October ;) It's a county thing for us, maybe they could go to the next county over and buy them, but I do know Westmoreland is not alone in banning minors from buying those two things during October.

[SquirrellyMama]

In what states can minors not buy tp or eggs? :confused:

 

During Homecoming kids aren't allowed to buy tp and eggs in bulk in our town.

[KidsHappen]

During Homecoming kids aren't allowed to buy tp and eggs in bulk in our town.

 

Wow, crazy! :001_huh:

[LisaKinVA]

probably has to do with what teens are known for doing with said tp and eggs in October:glare:

[Mergath]

What would a positive discussion about abortion look like to you? I think everyone thinks the discussion is a good one when their own views prevail. I think they are good when the heart of the matter is reached. When I am compelled to think deeply and struggle to convey my ideas, that is good to me, even if my views do not prevail. Which is a good thing, because they hardy ever do prevail.

 

In addition I try to separate the actual ideas from the ideology with which it may have become attached.

 

If you really can't see the connect that I drew very clearly starting with your statement about telling people what to do with their bodies, then that is indeed a problem. But I think the right to abortion and many others rights stand or fall on the ability to see connections, and it serves the pro-choice cause if people do not see connections. And a population that cannot see connections is needed for some ideas to come to full fruit.

 

I do see the connection. Plenty of people do see the connection. Your refusal to see a connection will not affect the fact that there is one. I am very sorry that it contentious to point it out, but I figured that since there are some 80 pages of all manner of things on two or more health care threads a small link would not be unreasonable, but I do not do so to be offensive, snarky, or provocative.

 

Now, if this discussion is not allowed on a board that proclaims the virtues of classical education, then it proclaims those virtues in vain, because the entire point of a classical education is to participate in the great conversation which is all about connections.

 

All of this is just my own foolish opinion for which I am still, thankfully, entitled. I may be wrong about all of it and doing humanity great harm. If so, I ask you all for forgiveness. Have a great weekend everyone.

 

A positive discussion, to me, would be one in which everyone is able to respectfully discuss their ideas, ask honest questions of people who disagree, and receive honest answers.

 

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to say in the rest of your post, but I will point out that your basic argument from your previous post, which seemed to me to be, "Liberal ideas are bad, so everything they support is bad too," isn't really drawing a connection between abortion and things like health care reform. You're really just attacking the people who support abortion, not abortion itself, and imho, that isn't a positive discussion.

[Tea Time]

A positive discussion, to me, would be one in which everyone is able to respectfully discuss their ideas, ask honest questions of people who disagree, and receive honest answers.

 

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to say in the rest of your post, but I will point out that your basic argument from your previous post, which seemed to me to be, "Liberal ideas are bad, so everything they support is bad too," isn't really drawing a connection between abortion and things like health care reform. You're really just attacking the people who support abortion, not abortion itself, and imho, that isn't a positive discussion.

 

Despite how you are perceiving my comments, I believe there are ideas that are deeper and more important than "liberal ideas" or "conservative ideas." I try to get to them. I try to go beyone politics and ideology and find the real root of an issue. It is abstract thinking, and it is not going to be possible for everyone to get it, especially on a message board. But that is my intent, not to attack people. When you say I am attacking people I think you are attacking ME. I think you are attempting to shut me up. Please stop that and try to reason with me. Please read my signature line and play fair with me. Stop telling me that I am not making any points when I am. Jennifermarie seemed to understand that and she had some excellent comments that I really want to address, but they will take time. I am not going to "shoot from the hip" with them. That is because they are good, honest questions and they deserve good honest answers that I think about.

 

It is not attacking liberal ideas to point out their limits. Both liberal ideas and conservative ideas have limits and faults. If we are honest, we accept that and can hear them without thinking we are being attacked. That was the point SWB had in her post about growing a thicker skin.

 

I am still traveling and have little time for this, so it may not be exactly what I need to say or should say. Sorry about that. But it seems worthwhile to have dialog even if it is painful and frustrating, and you hurt my feelings with your words. I will try to follow up. Again, I am sorry if my ideas and opinions (that is all I have) make you feel bad. I do sincerely mean that.

[asta]

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

[Tea Time]

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

 

I'm not sure to whom this is directed. I can see it applying to us all at times, and it is so true! Feeling hurt and attacked though is not the worst of all things. I can live with it. :001_smile:

 

But, feeling inferior is exactly how you should feel sometimes, and it is not shameful to feel inferior when you are. That is humility, and it is the greatest of virtues.

 

Here is another one:

"It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong." G.K. Chesterton

 

Jennifermarie, I have not forgotten you. But your questions are not so easy to answer, and again, they deserve thoughtful and respectful answers, and I am having only moments here and there to pop in. I really hope the thread is not deleted and I am not banned before I can address them. :001_huh:

 

Hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

[lovemyboys]

Do you think anything illegal happened here?

 

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html

 

I'm a bit surprised that this made the news here in my very liberal city.

 

The teen health clinic arranged for a student to leave school for an abortion. The mother had signed a consent form for her daughter to access care through the clinic. The clinic is on school grounds, but is staffed entirely by a local hospital. Abortion is legal. In this state a girl can obtain an abortion without parent consent at age 13.

 

I find it very disturbing -- depressing that this is what things have come to-- but I'm not surprised. Nor do I see that anything illegal happened. Thoughts?

 

So incredibly sad. And yes, disturbing as well. These kids are so young.

 

What does this say about our society that, on one hand, people are applauding the ability to keep your children on your healthcare policy to the age of 26 and, on the other hand, legally paving the way for a 13-yo "young woman" to opt for an abortion without her parents' knowledge or consent?

 

Very few of the girls in these situations have truly horrendous home situations (abusive parents, incestuous father or older brother). Most of these girls are just really scared, bewildered and overwhelmed. The parents never even get a chance to work through this with their daughter because an outside entity takes over. And then she's supposed to heal emotionally, psychically and physically without her parents' support. Poor girl. Did I read that right, they even drove her to the facility? Yuck.

 

Just because it's legal in your area doesn't mean it's not wrong.

 

:ack2:

[Mejane]

The parents never even get a chance to work through this with their daughter because an outside entity takes over.

 

I'm sure that's exactly why some of these girls choose to circumvent their parents - they know it won't be about what they want, but about what their parents want.

[lovemyboys]

While I am disgusted that this can happen, the only thing that might have broken the law is that they put her in a taxi and sent her to the place to perform the abortion. Doesn't the school need a permission slip for the student to leave school grounds? Did no one escort her?

 

This certainly isn't the main thing wrong with the whole situation, but it is something.

 

Unaccompanied to an invasive medical procedure. What if there were complications? What if the girl had underlying medical issues?

 

So there are some legal aspects that they might want to reconsider for the future. Their liability is huge if anything happens to this girl.

 

There's just so much wrong here. What well-meaning (?) dolt :tongue_smilie: came up with this idea? Wonder if this was the first time too?

[lovemyboys]

That, and nothing illegal happened if the mother in question willingly signed an agreement with a clinic for which she knew that it kept the information confidential (if she didn't know it, she can only blame herself for signing the contract without reading it), i.e. she must have counted on not being informed, from the clinic, about what's going on with her daughter.

 

Personally I find this a HUGE mother-daughter trust and overall relationship issue (note that her daughter chose not to tell her that she was pregnant and that she made one of the big life decisions), but not really a legal issue.

 

Actually I really disagree here. It would be interesting to see the form itself. Does it really disclose that it's offering reproductive health services in the high school during school hours? Most of my friends who have signed forms such as these have done so in order for their dc to have aspirin, pamprin for cramps, etc. Otherwise, the school system says absolutely no access unless it's an accident/emergency.

 

And I would say you're making a huge leap about their relationship. Even in the closest families, a kid who gets pregnant in high school knows that it's an immense issue....parents realize (if they didn't know) that kids are sexually active, what's the relationship of the two teens, what's the future of this pregnancy, and loaded on top of that is the uncertainty, disappointment, fear, hormonal and emotional changes that occur during pregnancy. I know very few teens who would confidently walk into their kitchens to announce a pregnancy to their parents.

 

Assuming anything other than a normal teen/parent relationship here is unrealistic. We sow the seeds to have good open communications with our kids, but when they face a life-changing crisis and someone in authority tells them that they can make the crisis/problem go away quickly and quietly if they just don't tell their folks about it.....I would hope that my dc would talk with me. But I don't think any one of us could be 100% sure.

[lovemyboys]

I'm sure that's exactly why some of these girls choose to circumvent their parents - they know it won't be about what they want, but about what their parents want.

 

But the girl will never know, will she?

 

Her parents might surprise her. Sure some parents would not let the teen have a say. But faced with a situation as serious as this, I still say that it's wrong to take the parents so swiftly and decisively out of the conversation. In some cases, a conversation that they didn't even know existed.

[Tea Time]

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. Could you explain a bit further?

People who are pro-life are often accused of trying to tell people what to do with their bodies. But being forced to fund abortions or to perform abortions or distribute birth control are all forms of control that some people who are pro-choice (not all) would be very comfortable forcing. Not saying that we are doing that at this point, but some people would definitely be fine with it, and with this health care bill we are very much closer to being in a position to end up with that level of control.

 

The events that we are discussing in this thread are exactly the sort of events that can lead to forcing public funding (how can we fund underage abortions without parental consent?).

 

Either way you look at it, I think that telling someone they just want to control someone else's body is a weak argument because laws and legislation (which I think are largely coercive and should be reserved for preserving order not micromanaging people) are all about controlling people which is sometimes okay and sometimes not.

 

I wouldn't say that the teenager with the baby in the bathroom is directly linked with the culture you mention. People have had unwanted pregnancies since the dawn of time, and have gotten rid of babies that they didn't want since the dawn of time. Yes teens have probably heard that "human life is "just a bunch of tissue"", but they have also probably heard many more messages about how wonderful babies are.

But this again smacks of, "That is just the way it is, nothing we can do about it." The fact that it has always happened doesn't negate the possibility (possibility) that it was because of a general population that has become desensitized to the value of human life. Compare this to the attitudes about slavery which has always (and still) persisted. But sometimes people have turned against it. Same thing with smoking and drug use. General attitudes of a culture matter. No doubt this young woman (and I hate to use specific examples because they are always nebulous) had heard both ideas about pregnancy. We have no idea what she thought and believed, but messages do influence people, don't they? So the question that I want to ask is this: What message do YOU want to being giving?

As for the teenager you mention, maybe she had not heard of the "Safe Haven" law (the one passed in most states that says you can drop off a baby at a hospital or other allowed location within 72? hours of birth with no questions asked). I agree that their is a lack of knowledge for teens regarding birth control and safe s*x. When I was in public high school (only a few years ago), we were only taught to remain abstinent. They didn't tell us anything about any sort of birth control methods, or what to do if you did become pregnant. I think that this lack of knowledge leads to a great number of teens having unwanted pregnancies.

 

I think that if we improve s*x education for teens in school, starting in middle or even late elementary, a large amount of abortions would probably be prevented.

The safe haven laws need more press, no? What a great idea they are!

 

I was taught NOTHING in high school about s*x, yet there was a very low level of pregnancy. There has never in the course of history been so much information available to everyone about everything. Why has it failed to help? I am not interested in blaming schools or anyone, I just want to look at that honestly and try to understand why. Do you have any ideas?

 

I am curious as to what counts as an acceptable "choice" in your mind then if most abortions (aside from life saving or extreme circumstance ones) are not a "perfectly acceptable choice"?

In my mind (and that is all, folks, just my mind) one where there is no loss of life and very little to look back on and regret or be haunted by. Each individual situation is unique and should be treated that way. But the comparison I was originally making was about a healthy young person (not a drug addict or one being raped). All things being equal, I feel that adoption is better than abortion. It kind of reminds me of the organ donation concept. How do we turn a tragedy into something that saves life? But it should not be forced, IMO. That is why I am uncomfortable with trying to legislate our way to a pro-life culture. Same thing I feel about legislating ourselves to a culture that provides health care for everyone. Coercion through legislations is still coercion. One part of the population beating the head of the other through the law is damaging. Moreover we should be mindful how legislation is used or we might find ourselves without the right to homeschool.

 

Whew! Hope that clarifies my ideas/opinions. They are all I am putting forth, and I hope they were respectfully presented.

 

Take care!

Edited March 28, 2010 by Tea Time
typos

[msjones]

Actually I really disagree here. It would be interesting to see the form itself. Does it really disclose that it's offering reproductive health services in the high school during school hours? Most of my friends who have signed forms such as these have done so in order for their dc to have aspirin, pamprin for cramps, etc. Otherwise, the school system says absolutely no access unless it's an accident/emergency.

 

 

 

The school also has a nurse's office with rules similar to those you describe. The student was referred for the abortion by someone at the teen health center -- not by the school district nurse.

 

The Teen Health Center consent form makes no attempt to hide anything; it is clear that reproductive health services are available. And although the clinic is on school district property, it is not run by the school or district. It's a 'branch' of a local hospital.

[Mejane]

But the girl will never know, will she?

 

Her parents might surprise her. Sure some parents would not let the teen have a say. But faced with a situation as serious as this, I still say that it's wrong to take the parents so swiftly and decisively out of the conversation. In some cases, a conversation that they didn't even know existed.

 

The article quoted the mother as saying her daughter is pro-life. I have an inkling the mother is pro-life and that daughter knew if she told, she'd be having a baby she was not ready to have.

[LisaKinVA]

The article quoted the mother as saying her daughter is pro-life. I have an inkling the mother is pro-life and that daughter knew if she told, she'd be having a baby she was not ready to have.

 

Actually, no... the mother in a television interview said she was pro-choice.