How to stay patient?

[ondreeuh]

My poor son is very language-challenged. He has made a lot of progress in reading but still has some issues, especially dyslexia and auditory processing difficulties, that slow him down and hold him back in certain areas.

 

I have been really good about using materials that are right at his level and going as slow as I need to, but he was making no progress in spelling so I have changed programs (to Sequential Spelling). I like the program, but it brings out the beast in me! It requires the student to accurately hear the sounds in words, which is Corbin's weakest area and I get so aggravated - angry that he's not listening hard enough and just guessing.

 

Three days ago I asked him to spell "tin" and he spelled "thinner." Today I asked him to spell chins and again he spelled "thinner." :glare: He spelled "agreed" correctly but when I said "disagreed" he couldn't figure out how to write "dis" and tried using a ch. It's not that he doesn't know his phonograms, because he does, it's that he loses his way when he tries to sort out a word that he hears.

 

I think this program is just what he needs, because what else is going to help him hear sounds in words without lots of practice? I need to chill out and not take it personally when he makes a silly mistake, but that's easier said than done. After spelling I am mentally wiped out and thoroughly cranky. Maybe I should put it aside and do more auditory processing work - dictating smaller words, using Earobics? Ahhh. I just want to move forward already.

 

Would you plug ahead, shelve the program and work on more foundational skills (but how?), or modify the program - like say the words slower, give hints, emphasize endings, etc.?

Edited February 26, 2010 by ondreeuh

[Heidi]

I like to take the advice of MC Hammer:

 

"We got to pray just to make it today...":coolgleamA:

[ondreeuh]

I like to take the advice of MC Hammer:

 

"We got to pray just to make it today...":coolgleamA:

 

Thank you for making me laugh!

[AngelBee]

I like to take the advice of MC Hammer:

 

"We got to pray just to make it today...":coolgleamA:

 

:lol: :iagree: This is my BIGGEST issue in our homeschool. :(

[TracyR]

I have days like those too. My third daughter has speech/language issues. Math seems to be her weakest subject and she continues to call numbers 15 ,(50) , 17 (70). And we've been going over and over and over her numbers since kindergarden. I too feel like beating my head against the wall on those days.

 

My 2nd daughter is just flighty. I'm not sure what planet she lives on half of the time. Yet she can be smart when she wants to.

 

My oldest tested my patience for many years just because she didn't want to do school work. Period. Or apply herself ,, etc. which she still is like that at times.

 

In the end I still love each and everyone of them and I know they eventually will get it in their own good time.

How about a program like All About Spelling where he learns the rules to spelling word? Would that work better for him? Maybe with the auditory processing problems he isn't hearing you properly and it will just continue to frustrate him.

[Caribbean Queen]

You might try saying words and having him tell you the sounds. Start with words with only two sounds, like "in" "/I/ /N/." I did that with my kids and it helped them isolate sounds in words. It is a good activity for phonemic awareness.

 

The Writing Road to Reading has the child say the first sound, write the letter/s for that sound, and then say the second sound and write the letter/s for that, and so on. I think this is a great idea.

[ondreeuh]

I have days like those too. My third daughter has speech/language issues. Math seems to be her weakest subject and she continues to call numbers 15 ,(50) , 17 (70). And we've been going over and over and over her numbers since kindergarden. I too feel like beating my head against the wall on those days.

 

My 2nd daughter is just flighty. I'm not sure what planet she lives on half of the time. Yet she can be smart when she wants to.

 

My oldest tested my patience for many years just because she didn't want to do school work. Period. Or apply herself ,, etc. which she still is like that at times.

 

In the end I still love each and everyone of them and I know they eventually will get it in their own good time.

How about a program like All About Spelling where he learns the rules to spelling word? Would that work better for him? Maybe with the auditory processing problems he isn't hearing you properly and it will just continue to frustrate him.

 

I'm glad to know I'm not alone - though sorry that you get frustrated too. We're only human though.

 

We did AAS for a long time. He can learn to recite the rule but cannot independently apply it so he never got any better.

[ondreeuh]

You might try saying words and having him tell you the sounds. Start with words with only two sounds, like "in" "/I/ /N/." I did that with my kids and it helped them isolate sounds in words. It is a good activity for phonemic awareness.

 

The Writing Road to Reading has the child say the first sound, write the letter/s for that sound, and then say the second sound and write the letter/s for that, and so on. I think this is a great idea.

 

This is what we've been doing, with me asking him for the sounds and then feeding them back to him as he writes, but he isn't getting any more independent really, and of course that's the goal. Sigh.

[MerryAtHope]

If I remember correctly, Sequential says to use the word in a sentence. Have you been doing that part? (If I don't remember correctly, maybe you could try that--would that help him to know what word you mean?)

 

When my kids confuse the sounds I'm saying, I have them watch my mouth, or I tell them the difference between what they spelled & what I mean--I exaggerate the mouth motion so they can SEE the sound as well as hear it. Have you tried that?

 

Sorry you're having a tough time!

 

Merry :-)

[ondreeuh]

If I remember correctly, Sequential says to use the word in a sentence. Have you been doing that part? (If I don't remember correctly, maybe you could try that--would that help him to know what word you mean?)

 

When my kids confuse the sounds I'm saying, I have them watch my mouth, or I tell them the difference between what they spelled & what I mean--I exaggerate the mouth motion so they can SEE the sound as well as hear it. Have you tried that?

 

Sorry you're having a tough time!

 

Merry :-)

 

Yup, I'm doing all that.

 

"Chins. Not by the hairs of their chinny chin chins. Chhhhiiiinnnnssss. Listen to the end of the word. How many chins are there? More than one, right? Ok so listen again, chins."

 

t-h-i-n-n-e-r.

 

:glare:

I think he is maybe trying TOO hard. Is that possible? I don't know. I'm so glad it's Friday.

[kalanamak]

Yup, I'm doing all that.

 

"Chins. Not by the hairs of their chinny chin chins. Chhhhiiiinnnnssss. Listen to the end of the word. How many chins are there? More than one, right? Ok so listen again, chins."

 

t-h-i-n-n-e-r.

 

:glare:

I think he is maybe trying TOO hard. Is that possible? I don't know. I'm so glad it's Friday.

 

 

The other day kiddo tried mine. Every time he had to come up with a tricky letter, it was a B, and every time he paused in math, the answer was suddenly "12!". After awhile he whacked his head with a pencil to get the b's and 12's out. You boy has "thinner" on the brain, as in "Mommy, you are looking thinner these days".

[Renee in NC]

This is what we've been doing, with me asking him for the sounds and then feeding them back to him as he writes, but he isn't getting any more independent really, and of course that's the goal. Sigh.

 

What worked with my 8yo (who seems to be a lot like yours) was the word building and auditory processing work in Reading Reflex. It made it so that he can actually hear most of the sounds in a word now. It has also helped to make sure he can "see" the sound by the way I hold my mouth, tongue, etc. when I make a sound.

 

Now, mine couldn't even *begin* to spell something like thinner, though, so your ds may be well betond mine.

[Snickerdoodle]

Does your child repeat the word he is supposed to write before he writes it?

[Mandamom]

You need to teach him how to hear the sounds. Right now his brain doesn't know what to do with a lot of sounds so of course he's guessing. Repeating the words over and over isn't going to do much until his brain knows what to do with the sounds. He can learn but it might take some extra work -- maybe 5-10 minutes per day, less as he gets better.

 

Working on phonemic awareness (P.A.) activities daily for as long as it takes (months or years in some instances) can improve a child's weakness in reading and/or spelling.

 

Here is a test that I found on Google:

 

http://www.specialconnections.ku.edu/~specconn/page/instruction/ra/case/caseb/pdf/caseb_scene1_2.pdf

 

 

If he struggles on any skills on the test than you will need to work with him so that he knows how to do them with other words.

 

If you are interested some help after you give him the test feel free to send a PM or you can respond here.

[Kuovonne]

This is what we've been doing, with me asking him for the sounds and then feeding them back to him as he writes, but he isn't getting any more independent really, and of course that's the goal. Sigh.

 

What if you used a voice recorder? You ask him for the sounds and record them. If he didn't get the sounds right, delete and try again. Once he gets the sounds right, he plays the recording of his own voice back as he writes. He can pause and repeat the recording by himself as needed. This way the burden of feeding the sounds back to him is lifted from you and placed on him.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Kuovonne

[ondreeuh]

Yup, he repeats the word. At some point he loses the sound of the word, though. His auditory memory is awful. Thankfully his comprehension is very good - he visualizes a story as he hears it, so he retains the info. It's just writing that is tough (when writing sentences, he has to stop and start from the beginning over, and over, and over.)

[lovemykids]

Does he do copywork? I agree with Reading Reflex being helpful. Have you tried ETC? The 1/2 books are very good in cases like these. They really worked with my dd, she needed the extra work at one point. Maybe you could drop spelling for awhile and work on phonics, reading and writing. It might help.

[texasmama]

I would modify the program (I am using SS with a child who has some mild expressive language problems)...doing only ten words a day...or five...whatever works for both of you to keep him learning but not frustrated and so your hair doesn't go gray. :001_smile:

 

If I did all of that and saw that he wrote thinner, I would say, "Hmmm, chins...is that chins? Not by the hair of our chinny, chin, chins? Chins...." and see what happened.

 

Above all, give yourself permission to stop when you run out of patience. It will be best for everyone, I think.:grouphug:

[ondreeuh]

You need to teach him how to hear the sounds. Right now his brain doesn't know what to do with a lot of sounds so of course he's guessing. Repeating the words over and over isn't going to do much until his brain knows what to do with the sounds. He can learn but it might take some extra work -- maybe 5-10 minutes per day, less as he gets better.

 

Working on phonemic awareness (P.A.) activities daily for as long as it takes (months or years in some instances) can improve a child's weakness in reading and/or spelling.

 

Here is a test that I found on Google:

 

http://www.specialconnections.ku.edu/~specconn/page/instruction/ra/case/caseb/pdf/caseb_scene1_2.pdf

 

 

If he struggles on any skills on the test than you will need to work with him so that he knows how to do them with other words.

 

If you are interested some help after you give him the test feel free to send a PM or you can respond here.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Ch, th and sh are very hard for him. We have drilled them for what seems like forever, but they sound so similar in his mind that he has difficulty picking out the right one. This is tied into his articulation issues and he has difficulty pronouncing them in the right places. The final -s is also difficult for him to hear. The chins/thinner thing was a huge series of errors, but then he can spell other words very well that are in the same list (like winner and spinning).

 

 

I just gave him the test. We have used Reading Reflex and All About Spelling so these questions were a little familiar to him. Anyway, here are the results:

Concept of spoken word: 6/6

Rhyme recognition: 6/6

Rhyme production: 4.5/6

 

• Hop – he said “tockâ€
  
• See – he said “thing†and when I asked him to try again he said “beeâ€
  

 

Syllable blending: 5/6

 

• pa –per he did not blend, he just repeated the way I said it with the pause between syllables
  

 

Syllable segmentation: 6/6 with two small errors

 

• he divided basket into “bas-itâ€
  
• he divided fantastic into “fan tas kit†(you should hear him say hamburger LOL)
  

 

Syllable deletion: 6/6

Phoneme isolation of initial sounds: 6/6 with one small error

 

• he has difficulty articulating /sh/, so it came out more like a /s/, but he was clearly trying to say /sh/
  

 

Phoneme Isolation of Final Sounds: 5/6

 

• for tooth, he identified final sound as /s/ and had difficulty hearing the difference when I pointed it out
  

 

Phoneme Blending: 6/6

Phoneme Segmentation: 6/6

Phoneme Deletion of Initial Sounds: 6/6

Phoneme Deletion of Final Sounds: 5/6

 

• for train without the /n/, he said “train†again
  

 

Phoneme Deletion of First Sound in Consonant Blend: 2/6

 

• clap without /k/ was said â€capâ€
  
• stop without /s/ was said “opâ€
  
• black without /b/ was said “backâ€
  
• drip without /d/ was said “ipâ€
  

 

Phoneme Substitution: 6/6

---------------------------------------

 

So what do you think I should do from here?

[ondreeuh]

Does he do copywork? I agree with Reading Reflex being helpful. Have you tried ETC? The 1/2 books are very good in cases like these. They really worked with my dd, she needed the extra work at one point. Maybe you could drop spelling for awhile and work on phonics, reading and writing. It might help.

 

He does not really do copywork. We do a little, like when he narrates to me and I write it down for him to copy, but since he does not absorb anything it is kinda pointless to do regularly. He just copies letter for letter, not seeing the big picture.

 

We do ETC, 2 pages a day. We do both the whole and half step books. He is currently in 5 and 5 1/2 and we are working on the scr, spl, thr blends. We are supplementing with phonics games and he is getting better but those blends (trigraphs?) are very hard for him to read.

 

We did Reading Reflex ... well I checked it out from the library and we used it for about a month. He tested into the "advanced code" and after we reviewed the word building exercises we got stuck in the mapping of sounds. It was very overwhelming on him to have to map out six different ways to say a sound - and he didn't absorb anything. I think instead of saying "here's a sound we can spell six ways" he needs to learn a bunch of words that follow one spelling, then after mastery he can handle another list of words that use a different spelling.

 

I gave him the Phonemic Awareness test and posted my results below - his only "big" weakness is dividing up consonant blends and we're already addressing that with ETC and games. Any other suggestions are welcome!

[ondreeuh]

I would modify the program (I am using SS with a child who has some mild expressive language problems)...doing only ten words a day...or five...whatever works for both of you to keep him learning but not frustrated and so your hair doesn't go gray. :001_smile:

 

If I did all of that and saw that he wrote thinner, I would say, "Hmmm, chins...is that chins? Not by the hair of our chinny, chin, chins? Chins...." and see what happened.

 

Above all, give yourself permission to stop when you run out of patience. It will be best for everyone, I think.:grouphug:

Wise words! I will try to follow that advice.

 

(when I pointed out that thinner wasn't chins, he just said he didn't know how to do it. Poor kid - I know stressing him out is the worst thing I can do but it's hard. I definitely need to dial it back.

[ondreeuh]

The other day kiddo tried mine. Every time he had to come up with a tricky letter, it was a B, and every time he paused in math, the answer was suddenly "12!". After awhile he whacked his head with a pencil to get the b's and 12's out. You boy has "thinner" on the brain, as in "Mommy, you are looking thinner these days".

 

How funny! He knows I am on a diet so I'm going to believe that's true.

[MerryAtHope]

Yup, I'm doing all that.

 

"Chins. Not by the hairs of their chinny chin chins. Chhhhiiiinnnnssss. Listen to the end of the word. How many chins are there? More than one, right? Ok so listen again, chins."

 

t-h-i-n-n-e-r.

 

:glare:

I think he is maybe trying TOO hard. Is that possible? I don't know. I'm so glad it's Friday.

 

Do I remember that he was struggling with ch/th/sh? A lot of kids do, could that still be going on?

 

But he may be trying too hard too. How does he do with the length of Sequential? Does it get too long for him? Would he do better with just half of the list per day?

 

Merry :-)

[ondreeuh]

Do I remember that he was struggling with ch/th/sh? A lot of kids do, could that still be going on?

 

But he may be trying too hard too. How does he do with the length of Sequential? Does it get too long for him? Would he do better with just half of the list per day?

 

Merry :-)

 

Yes, you remember correctly. Those darn consonant digraphs are still tripping him up. I just commissioned my very artistic daughter to create some visual cards to remind him of their sounds.

 

He might do better with half the list, though I don't think he makes more errors at the end than at the beginning. I think I am more stressed out than he is. Most of our curricula is very gentle and repetitive, and I am struggling with this "testing before you've learned it" technique even though I know it's not really a test. Maybe my attitude adjustment is the only adjustment I need to make. Sigh!

[ondreeuh]

I like this idea! He might really go for it as well. Thanks!

[anotherbrother]

I'm sure you have already thought about this .... maybe a hearing check? The professional ones in a sound proof booth give you a lot more information than the ones at the doctors office.

[ondreeuh]

Thank you - he has had a couple at the children's hospital since he was very speech/languaged delayed as a child, so hearing issues have been ruled out.

 

My theory is that he has some brain damage from being on the bypass pump (artificial heart) when he had heart surgeries as an infant. So according to that theory, his brain is still rewiring.

[Renee in NC]

 

We did Reading Reflex ... well I checked it out from the library and we used it for about a month. He tested into the "advanced code" and after we reviewed the word building exercises we got stuck in the mapping of sounds. It was very overwhelming on him to have to map out six different ways to say a sound - and he didn't absorb anything. I think instead of saying "here's a sound we can spell six ways" he needs to learn a bunch of words that follow one spelling, then after mastery he can handle another list of words that use a different spelling.

 

I gave him the Phonemic Awareness test and posted my results below - his only "big" weakness is dividing up consonant blends and we're already addressing that with ETC and games. Any other suggestions are welcome!

 

I would try Reading Reflex again, but go to the Auditory Processing drills in the Basic Code and the AP drills and word building in the Adjacent Consonants chapter. I don't like the way they teach the Advanced Code, but the above things were *very* helpful (and would address the phoneme deletion problem.)

[rwilliams]

Have you tried using a sensory integration approach to get him ready to learn? I believe that it is important for children to be in a "ready-state" to learn. Different sensory input, different for each kid, can really help organize the brain. Google sensory integration. Heavy work, using the large muscles to do work, and vestibular stimulation, when the head moves through space, are usually effective. Each child is different and trial and error will be need. When a child is in a ready-state learning is easier.

[Caribbean Queen]

This is what we've been doing, with me asking him for the sounds and then feeding them back to him as he writes, but he isn't getting any more independent really, and of course that's the goal. Sigh.

 

The Writing Road to Reading method is a little different. When the child is spelling a one syllable word the child says the first sound and writes it, then the child says the second sound and writes that. The child continues until the end of the word. The teacher does not ask for the sound, nor

feeds it back to the child.

 

The book suggests that the teacher write along with the child.

It might go like this:

 

You say "Chins. We have no hair on our chins."

 

He says /CH/ and writes "th." You write "ch"

He looks at what you wrote and erases "th" and writes "ch."

He says /I/ and writes "i." You also write "i."

He says /N/ and writes "n." You also write "n"

He says /S/ and writes "s." You also write "s"

 

Then he reads what he wrote. "Chins."

 

This way he is unlikely to turn in a paper with "chins" spelled t h i n n e r.

 

Another day you test him by not writing the words along with him. You might need to drink wine on that day. Just kidding. The book starts with words with two sounds, like "me, go, at."

 

My daughter is not ready to spell the words yet, but she can write single sounds, like m for /M/, c for /K/ /S/, and t for /T/. She also can look at letters and say the sounds they make. WRTR suggests making flash cards for the letter combos TH SH CH and many others. We haven't gotten that far with her yet. She can also say the sounds of words seperately. If I give her the word, "bed" she can say /B/ /E/ /D/.

[ElizabethB]

You could try Read, Write, Type and Wordy Querty, it would allow him to work on some of those skills independently. You can try the demos first. You also might have to work with him until he gets how to do it.

[MerryAtHope]

Yes, you remember correctly. Those darn consonant digraphs are still tripping him up. I just commissioned my very artistic daughter to create some visual cards to remind him of their sounds.

 

He might do better with half the list, though I don't think he makes more errors at the end than at the beginning. I think I am more stressed out than he is. Most of our curricula is very gentle and repetitive, and I am struggling with this "testing before you've learned it" technique even though I know it's not really a test. Maybe my attitude adjustment is the only adjustment I need to make. Sigh!

 

You know, that is the aspect my son struggled with--he felt set up to fail because of this. But if your son isn't feeling that, then maybe you can adapt it some to meet his needs and yours. One thing I did before we quit using SS was to allow my son to READ the list first, before he tried spelling the words. Not every day, but some days we did this, and it did help some.

 

Also, for things that I KNEW he would struggle with, I talked it through first. (as an example, changing y to i & adding a suffix). For a word with ch/th/sh, maybe you could review the sound with him first--ie, "this next word will use the /ch/ sound. Do you remember how to write that sound?" Have him write it on his paper as a reminder note, and have it correct, then say the word and see if having that sound chunk to refer to helps him spell the word correctly.

 

Merry :-)

[MerryAtHope]

He does not really do copywork. We do a little, like when he narrates to me and I write it down for him to copy, but since he does not absorb anything it is kinda pointless to do regularly. He just copies letter for letter, not seeing the big picture.

 

My son used to do this, and a language therapist told me that this is the type of child who most needs copywork. However, you have to make them say the sounds out loud as they copy. So you have to make sure that the words aren't too difficult for the child's current level (I think when my kids were younger I made the mistake of having them copy things without being solid on some of the vowel team sounds). Model for him how to copy sound by sound, and have him say the sounds out loud.

 

It can take 2-3 years to build up a child's "inner voice" for hearing these sounds and learning to say them automatically instead of thinking in terms of letter names or no meaning attached to the letters they write. Some kids just do this naturally, but some have to be taught.

 

Merry :-)

[lovemykids]

My son used to do this, and a language therapist told me that this is the type of child who most needs copywork. However, you have to make them say the sounds out loud as they copy. So you have to make sure that the words aren't too difficult for the child's current level (I think when my kids were younger I made the mistake of having them copy things without being solid on some of the vowel team sounds). Model for him how to copy sound by sound, and have him say the sounds out loud.

 

It can take 2-3 years to build up a child's "inner voice" for hearing these sounds and learning to say them automatically instead of thinking in terms of letter names or no meaning attached to the letters they write. Some kids just do this naturally, but some have to be taught.

 

Merry :-)

:iagree:

 

If I were you, I would continue with copywork because even though it seems pointless- it’s not. He will use that visual memory of his to learn to spell words. I would also drop spelling altogether, and instead focus on phonics and reading for as long as it takes him to work some of these problems out. I don’t think he should learn to spell if he can not read.

[Caribbean Queen]

I know that when I have to copy a sentence from another piece of paper, I read the paper and try to remember how the words are spelled. If I have to write right by a model, I mindlessly copy the letters. I may not even read the words. That is one of the reasons that the spelling workbooks I filled out in school didn't help me spell at all.

[Mandamom]

I would try Reading Reflex again, but go to the Auditory Processing drills in the Basic Code and the AP drills and word building in the Adjacent Consonants chapter. I don't like the way they teach the Advanced Code, but the above things were *very* helpful (and would address the phoneme deletion problem.)

 

The Writing Road to Reading method is a little different. When the child is spelling a one syllable word the child says the first sound and writes it, then the child says the second sound and writes that. The child continues until the end of the word. The teacher does not ask for the sound, nor

feeds it back to the child.

 

The book suggests that the teacher write along with the child.

It might go like this:

 

You say "Chins. We have no hair on our chins."

 

He says /CH/ and writes "th." You write "ch"

He looks at what you wrote and erases "th" and writes "ch."

He says /I/ and writes "i." You also write "i."

He says /N/ and writes "n." You also write "n"

He says /S/ and writes "s." You also write "s"

 

Then he reads what he wrote. "Chins."

 

This way he is unlikely to turn in a paper with "chins" spelled t h i n n e r.

 

Another day you test him by not writing the words along with him. You might need to drink wine on that day. Just kidding. The book starts with words with two sounds, like "me, go, at."

 

My daughter is not ready to spell the words yet, but she can write single sounds, like m for /M/, c for /K/ /S/, and t for /T/. She also can look at letters and say the sounds they make. WRTR suggests making flash cards for the letter combos TH SH CH and many others. We haven't gotten that far with her yet. She can also say the sounds of words seperately. If I give her the word, "bed" she can say /B/ /E/ /D/.

 

 

I agree with both of these posts. Spending more time on just phonemic awareness activities will probably take him further than trying to force the spelling. I frequently work, sometimes years, with children who have PA deficits. It pays off in the long run but it does get old doing the same activities day after day. It is almost necessary with a language impaired child.

[lovemykids]

The Writing Road to Reading method is a little different. When the child is spelling a one syllable word the child says the first sound and writes it, then the child says the second sound and writes that. The child continues until the end of the word. The teacher does not ask for the sound, nor

feeds it back to the child.

 

The book suggests that the teacher write along with the child.

It might go like this:

 

You say "Chins. We have no hair on our chins."

 

He says /CH/ and writes "th." You write "ch"

He looks at what you wrote and erases "th" and writes "ch."

He says /I/ and writes "i." You also write "i."

He says /N/ and writes "n." You also write "n"

He says /S/ and writes "s." You also write "s"

 

Then he reads what he wrote. "Chins."

 

This way he is unlikely to turn in a paper with "chins" spelled t h i n n e r.

 

Another day you test him by not writing the words along with him. You might need to drink wine on that day. Just kidding. The book starts with words with two sounds, like "me, go, at."

 

.

 

Great advice! You will work it out, and it will be fine. Take deep breaths and plenty of breaks. Have Chamomile tea! :grouphug:

Edited February 28, 2010 by lovemykids
duh