Is this a reasonable consequence and if so...

[Sue G in PA]

what should I do about how dd11 is reacting to it? The scenario: Ds6 comes inside the house all flustered saying that my dd11 hit my ds5 "really, really hard on his back". Ds5 is on ds6's heels, crying so hard he's choking. All this is going on while I'm in the tub...trying to relax :001_huh: My dh is fixing dinner and sends dd11 to her room to "cool off". I'm contemplating this in the tub and think "cooling off" isn't enough as dd11 and I have had this discussion before (we don't hit, period, but especially a younger sibling...no.matter.what). So, I get out of my "relaxing" bath and calmly go to dd11's room. I tell her that she is welcome to join us for dinner but after that she must return to her room and clean it...thoroughly. My reasoning? If she feels a need to use her hands for destructive purposes, perhaps she need some help in finding constructive things to do with her hands instead...ex/cleaning her room! I said this in my most calm, rationale, matter-of-fact voice. No yelling. No anger. Dd11 erupts like Mt. Vesuvius, screaming how unfair I am, how much I hate her, how ds5 never gets punished (so not true), etc. She refuses to eat, but remains in her room screaming how impossible it is to clean her room (not so), how unfair we are, how she'd just rather die (unacceptable talk from her so I added more punishment...can't come out of her room tonight...period). She proceeds to bang on her window screaming "HELP ME" at the top of her lungs. Again, I warned of more punishment if that didn't stop. It did. Now she's singing an "Ode to the unfair, unloving mom" in her room.

 

Okay, so first: Was my original punishment fair?

 

If so: What should I do about her behavior NOW?

 

If not: What would you have done taking into consideration that dd11 has a bad habit of hitting her younger siblings out of anger AND screaming at me as well.

 

Thanks for listening and your advice.

[Janet in WA]

LOL. I knew at the very beginning of your story how it was going to end. The problem is that you chose as a consequence something that, in itself, is an issue (unless you can say that this is the first time your dd has had any problems with cleaning her room).

 

If I were you, I'd choose very simple consequences that aren't fraught with further issues. Something that offers her few choices or options for complications. If I were you, I would have just sent her to bed early, telling her that you hope that if she gets more sleep, she'll have more self-control tomorrow. And if not, there's no bedtime that can't be made even earlier tomorrow night. And I'd suggest the early bedtime NOW. Be sure to explain the connection between her behavior and her early bedtime.

[LauraQ]

Okay, so first: Was my original punishment fair?

 

It was entirely too soft if you really don't want her to hit her brother. Cleaning her room should be done daily as a matter of course, so her punishment should be, IMO, *more* than the minimum that should already be expected of her.

 

If so: What should I do about her behavior NOW?

 

Do. Not. Tolerate it. For screaming and disrespecting you: she must write lines. For banging the window: she must clean all the windows in the house (indoors and out). For hitting her sibling: she must apologize, do something nice for them (give them a gift or spend time playing what *they* want to play). That sort of thing--be creative and make the punishment fit the crime.

 

If not: What would you have done taking into consideration that dd11 has a bad habit of hitting her younger siblings out of anger AND screaming at me as well.

 

Hit her where it hurts, wherever that is for her. Ground her, take away privileges, take away material posessions, require her to do acts of service to others (especially for the person she harmed), require her to take on additional responsibilities around the house, or require her to give away something dear to her (especially to the person she harmed), or even make her write lines (writing lines works miracles in my home where my 10 and 12 year olds are too old for many former disciplines to work anymore).

[Joanne]

Okay, so first: Was my original punishment fair?

 

It wasn't "unfair" but nor was it related, really, to the misbehavior. It gave her pre-teen reason to play the "fair" and "you hate me" and "I'm the only one persecuted" card.

 

An 11 year old hitting is an absolute disrespect of another person. Therefore, her amends needs to me something *respectful* of that person. Instead of "go to your room and clean", I'd say "go to your room until 1) You are ready to make this better and 2) you are able to act respectfully.

 

Making amends may include doing the 5 year old's chores, for example.

 

As far as the issues of disrespect of property (window banging, etc), I agree with the poster who suggested cleaning those windows.

 

Can I encourage you to drop thinking about how "it's not true" that she gets all the punishment and the littles none? She won't "get" or "accept" your version of fair for years; don't even try to evaluate it by adult/mom standards.

 

One other small, but important thing. Change your wording from "we don't hit" (because she DOES) to "Hitting is not acceptable".

[Scarlett]

I'm taking notes. From this and another thread, I gather it is ineffective to pile punishments on in the middle of a meltdown or crisis. From my cozy chair far far away from a screaming 11 yo girl, ;) I would say that once she started that out of control screaming and banging on the window that there was not going to be much you could do to control her in that moment.So. I guess, in hindsite, maybe your dh's idea of letting her 'cool off' first and LATER assigning her some consequence for hitting her younger sibling (such as writing an apology letter or doing something FOR the offended party) might have been more effective.

 

If it had been ME in that tub, I would have been very very angry. And even if I didn't raise my voice or say anything actually angry, I would have still been very angry and therefore disciplined in anger. Not saying that is what happened with you....:).

 

I look forward to what everyone else has to say because I have an 8 yo with a wicked temper (apple doesn't fall far from the tree). Just today he shoved his friend so hard, friend fell against the corner of a piece of furniture and hurt his back. We were just about to walk out the door, and so I was having a terrible time dealing with the whole thing. I had two boys in my car both so mad at each other they went shooting daggers out of their eyes. My ds hit his friend AGAIN in the car--before I could even pull out of the drive-way. I left friend in car and took ds out and just insisted he calm down before we left. I made him apologize verbally for both shoves/punches, but now that I'm calm (and a couple of hours have passed) I am going to have a one on one with ds about temper/respect/friends/signs of repentence and all that. I think a written note to his friend apologizing will be required too. And then that will be the end of it. But I wonder...is it enough? Sorry to threadjack, but I know how you feel somewhat and wanted to share.

[Alice]

You might have done this but not mentioned it...but did you ask her for her side of the story or immediately believe the 6 yr old?

 

You obviously know your kids and if she has a history of hitting, then she probably did do it. But in her mind you might be assuming guilt without talking to her first. That might be part of her reaction to the punishment. I agree with Joanne that no matter what she's going to think you're unfair, because that's what pre-teen girls think when a Mom is disciplining them. :) But she might have less of an excuse to say it's unfair if you asked her for her version of what happened first.

[Sue G in PA]

That's why I love this board! :D As to the cleaning her room being an issue normally...*typically* cleaning her room is not an issue. And she does tidy it daily, but the punishment for tonight was a thorough clean (like she does on Saturdays). BUT, out of fairness, today is not her normal thorough-cleaning day. I have made her write "lines" before for similar issues. Making amends to her brother is something she WILL do (I just forgot to add that portion of the "punishment" but we did discuss it). I chose NOT to go the "time out until you calm down" route b/c it seemed too "soft" for what she did, KWIM? Anyway, she has now calmed down, cleaned "some" of her room and asked to go outside before it got too dark (a deal she made w/ dh). She also gave me a hug and kiss and in that was an unspoken apology (I guess). I told her I loved her.

 

I'm not sure I'll add any more insult to injury by making her do windows or any more chores. BUT, I am still thinking of something suitable to make this up to her brother.

 

OH, and I do appreciate the re-wording of "we don't hit". That makes better sense. AND, I can see how I should forget the "fair vs. unfair" thing in regards to punishment. It's obvious she doesn't "get" that yet! :) Thanks everybody. It's nice to have more tools in my "toolbox" for next time around.

[Sue G in PA]

her side didn't match up with all the other stories, KWIM? She said ds5 "punched her in the face". THAT didn't happen. I did give her the benefit of the doubt in saying that I realize she didn't hit her brother w/out provocation (meaning: I KNOW ds5 must have done something to her to provoke her). Dd11 will NOT usually hit unless she has been "wronged" in some way. Ds5, by the way, had his video game privileges removed for the evening as punishment for his "crime".

[LisaKinVA]

Okay, so first: Was my original punishment fair?

 

I don't see anything wrong with the first punishment, except that it didn't have much to do with hitting her younger siblings. While hormones aren't an excuse, pre-pubescent girls can be ... difficult.

 

I like the above poster's idea of sending her to bed, and letting her know that after she has had some rest, and can better control herself there will be consequences for her actions.

 

Perhaps she should be made to "serve" the dd5 for a day. Make his bed, clean up his toys, make him a special meal. And let her know that if she chooses to be destructive with her hands, you will make sure she has plenty of constructive things to do instead -- whether they are cleaning, cooking or whatever.

 

 

If not: What would you have done taking into consideration that dd11 has a bad habit of hitting her younger siblings out of anger AND screaming at me as well.

 

If this is a habit -- she does it continually -- this isn't something new.

 

1. Make sure she understands what the house rules are -- and any consequences for disobeying them. POST them, if you have to. Enlist DH help if need be. You must BOTH agree on the rules & consequences, or it won't work.

 

2. Follow through consistently on the consequences. At 11, there is no question your dd knows the difference between right and wrong. Find a cool-down spot (her bed?) just for her. For 10 minutes, your dd should write about what she did wrong, why she thinks she did it, and what she should have done instead. If you are a Christian or of any faith, have her look up a verse and contemplate it's meaning, writing about it as well.

 

After the cool-down period, sit down and have her read to you what she's written. You can turn this into a bonding period -- open discussion between you and her. Make sure you tell her you love her -- and that she apologizes to you and her sibling(s).

 

3. Make sure she does something for the offended party as well -- chores, playing a game all of the offended party's choosing. This is very important to help her build a better relationship with her siblings.

 

4. I'd also look for reasons why she might be acting out. Age can plan a role in things like this. Maybe she is overly tired. Maybe her hormones are beginning to surge and she doesn't know how to deal with all of the emotional and physical changes. Maybe she needs "me" time or "alone" time. At times we rely on our older children too much for help with the younger ones (to watch out for them, etc.), that we forget they need time for themselves, or mommy time too. I know I needed "me time" at 11. Too much activity STILL drives me up a wall (and I have 4 young, very active children... talk about missing my quiet mornings, but I digress!)

 

It is very important that you not only stop the behavior, but that you continue to build your relationship with your dd. You need to be a part of her life more than ever at this stage of life -- so whatever you do, make sure she knows that you love her and only want the best (that means listening to her as much as anything).

 

Obedience is more than an outward action -- you can "sit down" on the outside but still be "standing up" on the inside. So finding the heart of the matter is crucial.:grouphug:

[frogpond1]

I know a 14 year old girl who screams at her mother in front of other adults. It is very ugly. Age 11 is a much better age to deal with these power struggles than age 14. The hardest thing to do is to remain calm and not get pulled into a fight. Think of who you want her to be as she grows up and then lovingly stand firm. Love and Logic is a great book to read.

[Danestress]

I think it's always risky to make a child DO something as a consequence, since you don't really have the power to enforce that. How can you make someone clean a room? Or write a letter? or cook dinner? You can't, if it becomes important to the child to show you that you can't. All you can do is up the consequence ("If you don't clean your room, then ..............") Some kids would never think of that. Two of mine wouldn't, and I can use this type of consequence. One was very set on escalating. I figured that out about him, and found it was better for me to have a consequence that was totally within my control. You can't watch tv, or you can't go to your friends house, I won't drive you .... where ever she wants to go.

 

For me it might be "if you mistreat a member of the family, the benefits of family membership are withdrawn from you. So no dessert .... or allowance .... or computer time ..... or movie night.

 

I like to be nonpunitive anyway, but if I feel I have to punish ....

[Natalieclare]

I wonder if you could ask her if she has any warning bells that go off in her head before she hits? Help her to clue in to the amping up process that's happening inside her. Could you help her figure out a strategy to have in place so she can avoid getting physical in her anger?

 

We all want our kids to get along and treat each other well. Sometimes it's hard to figure out how to get there.

 

I'm not against punishment at.all. I just think family life runs best when good training happens, with lots of talking/teaching. Some problems we try to prevent. Mostly we try to prepare. Often we problem solve. Then we punish, when it's warranted.

 

One tool that helped our kids work through issues was the Brother Offended Chart from Doorposts. (I do NOT recommend everything from that site, but this poster was useful to us.) We taped it to the wall and when a squabble arose, I would send them to it to follow the steps listed. This was after we had gone over the chart and established family standards for handling difficulties. So the foundation had already been laid.

 

I am not a believer in "letting kids work it out" without first giving them the tools and practice to work it out effectively. And I keep a sharp ear out for disagreements, intervening pretty much on the early side.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I hope you don't mind me sharing our strategy -- I know I haven't really addressed the issue you have *right now*. And I don't want to seem preachy or know-it-all-ish; it's just that I had a crummy relationship with my sister, so I am HIGHLY motivated to help my kids have the best relationships possible.

[Peela]

Interesting...I have a different perspective that might not be popular here. I see the 5yo as much in the wrong as the 11yo, and I would try not to take sides. I let the kids work it out...otherwise they then do things for the effect on the parent as much as to work things out with each other. You say the 11 doesn't usually hit unless provoked. So let the 5yo get a whack and maybe he wont provoke his sister for a while. By taking sides, you put yourself in a constant position of mediator of your childrens' squabbles. How can children protect themselves from very annoying siblings? It seems only natural to me to let them have some power and simply turn a blind eye. Of course I would step in if it went much beyond a spat here and there, and work on the deeper issues. But taking sides with children over every issue, and handing out punishment when the 11yo is already having to deal with an annoying sibling...is only going to breed resentment. Give the 11yo some power to deal with the situation herself, and she soon may have an adoring younger sibling who wont treat her badly because he knows she won't take it.

 

I know a family with 4 kids all spread out in age, and the mother is always protecting the younger siblings from the older, and turning the younger ones into brats that the older ones don't want to play with because whenever a younger one doesn't get what he wants, he cries and the older one gets into trouble every time. Younger kids have a lot of power, and very loud voices, and often really know how to annoy their siblings. I actually believe rules like "no hitting allowed" can be counter productive. I don't have that rule, but the kids are not animals who go around hitting each other.

I realise this is probably way out of the reality of most of you, but I try not to get so involved because mostly I don't know the whole situation,and i dont want to play God with them, so I put it back on the kids, punish both of them (which I realise you did, but the 11yo felt unfairly punished) or leave them to sort it out themselves. I would cuddle the 5 yo, ask what he did to deserve it, and treat the 11 yo with more understanding.

I am not against physical punishment- a smack- but I don't do that and then have a rule that my kids are not allowed to hit each other.

Anyway, thats a few of my thoughts...not all relevant to your situation, but I thought I would share them anyway.

[Karen sn]

On the flip side - was this younger brother egging her on?

I have seen it happen (watched the whole thing unfold) and the younger kids knew they could get away with tormenting older kid. When older kid FINALLY reacts younger ones run to tattle.

 

So - he might need discipline as well.

 

It may be wrong how she handled it - but I wonder if he sould be washing windows with her!

[Karen sn]

Peela,

I agree. In the real world - the person who pesters is going to eventually get smacked upside the head.

Better to learn this lesson as a kid.

I have seen some really bratty kids get away with so much and they grow up to be horrible little boys who don't listen to a girl's, "No!"

 

My dd only hits in self defense - I support her. I tell the bratty boys they should have listened to her "stop" and if they don't - they get what they deserve.

[Pamela H in Texas]

i am not well this morning so can't comment much, but let me tell you that your dd got off easy in my book. And what about ds?

[Danestress]

I disagree (though I think reasonable minds can differ).

 

My rule is, "if someone is bothering you and you need help, let me know. I'd prefer you to work it out yourself, though. But I don't care how frustrated you are, you don't get to hit. I don't hit you when I am frustrated, Daddy doesn't hit me when he's frustrated, and you don't hit each other under any circumstances ever." Punishing hitting does not mean not addressing what the 5 year old might have been doing, and disallowing hitting doesn't *have* to mean that a younger child gets to be a manipulative brat. I don't allow that either:)

 

That said, I think it's really important to make sure older children have physical and mental space. I would not think it's fair to force the 11 year old to play with/babysit/share space with the 6 year old and not to have an option of saying "okay, this is really annoying, I'm going off on my own for a while."

[Mrs. H.]

Ok, I might be alone here, but I would feel like the screaming at me and banging on windows deserves a much more severe punishment than hitting a sibling, especially since you know that the sibling wasn't completely innocent.

 

Children don't realize that a younger sibling is smaller, younger, and weaker than they are. They just see a pack of kids...either babies or kids like them. Equals. Even small children know not to hurt a baby intentionally, but usually by the time a child is about 4, they are fair game for sibling punishment if they are irritating.

 

Now, this is not to say that hitting a sibling is ok. With 3 boys ages 7-4, I deal with this on a daily basis. The 4 year old drives the 7 year old batty, the 7 year old hits him, the 4 year old comes running to me. Mom walks a fine line between wanting to allow the natural consequences of being a pest to occur, and keeping a child physically safe from an older and stronger brother.

 

If the 4 year old bites the 7 year old, and the 7 year old bites him back (this happened yesterday), we kind of consider that equal around here, but at the same time, we require apologies from both boys, and explain to them (again, and again, and again) that hitting/biting/shoving is not the best way to handle a disagreement, and to come see me or dh next time. However, in the heat of the moment, children are often not rational. Luckily, our 5 year old son manages to stay out of both the 4 & 7 year old's way. They are just alike, and therefore fight a lot.

 

So, apologies all around for both the 11 and 5 year old, and a talk about how hitting is not an option, come see Mom or Dad if you can't work it out, removal of appropriate priveleges, etc.

 

Now, for what would be (for me) the REAL issue here...the screaming and banging on windows. Mostly the screaming at Mom. That child (and I have a 10 year old girl, yes, they can be melodramatic and hormonal, but that's not an excuse. I can be that way too, but I control it, and they can too) would be my companion for a long time, spending every waking moment with me, answering my questions with respect and kindness, and helping me out in whatever chores I had to do for the next week or so.

 

Your daughter is at an age where she is looking to see how an adult woman behaves, and you are her sole role model. I'm not saying that her bad behavior is a reflection of bad behavior on your part, but that she needs a lot of direction and guidance right now, and you, being the Mom, are the only appropriate person to give it to her. I realize that you are finishing a pregnancy, have a large family, and devoting a lot of time to one child seems like too much, but if you just take her into your daily routine (after school, of course), she can begin to learn how much you really do in a day, how you react to certain situations, the things you like, etc. Don't just make this a time for chores and work. If you sit down to read, knit, or sew, have her choose a project and sit with you.

 

I think that daughters at this age crave a lot of alone time with their mothers, to learn how to be women, whether it is a conscience decision or not, and many of them don't get it, and their parents lose the heart of their children because they didn't realize how important it is just to spend time with them. You don't have to plan anything, just take them into whatever you are doing, and require respect at all times.

[Twinmom]

since you've had lots of good advice already, but I did want to say that I got a real laugh out of your post as did my DD8, who pulls the same thing on WAY too many occasions! We've been working with her on many of the same issues. I read your post to DD with "dramatic emphasis" added to your DD's temper tantrum, and we were both completely cracking up by the time I was through! DD8 saw so much of herself in it and was able to laugh at herself about it...a great lesson learned for her.

 

Thanks so much for a light way to teach self-awareness! :D

[Claire]

Sorry, I haven't read the other responses so hope I'm not repeating. The one thing I wondered about was, when you went up to her room, if you sat down first and gave her a chance to explain what had happened. She probably had a different point of view than everyone else -- possibly quite wrong, but hers nevertheless. If you didn't do this, I can see how she could feel that everyone was ganging up on her.

 

Also, I think I would have waited before going up. She had already received consequences from your dh and was dealing with that. She probably perceived that she was getting doubly punished for one incident, making it feel unfair to her.

 

I'm not saying she was right in all of this! I just think that fully understanding where the child is coming from helps a parent see exactly where and why a child is going wrong. That makes it easier to make corrections that actually achieve the desired behavior rather than igniting additional undesirable behavior.

[Rosie_0801]

Reading "Children are from Heaven" by John Gray might help. He repeats himself way too many times, but the message is still good.

I think your hubby was quite right to send her to cool off. I'd go and talk to her about emotions (not a lecture on how she shouldn't have them.) Ask what emotion makes her feel like hitting her siblings. Presumably its anger. If she's able to identify it, she's old enough to start learning to control it. I would tell her that it's unacceptable to hit the other kids, that you understand that little kids can be annoying sometimes and the next time she gets angry enough to want to hit, you want her to come and tell you how angry she is. That's a pretty big thing, so it might take practise for her. It will probably take practise for you too, because you have to be 100% reliable in order for her to trust you and find this a better alternative. Stop whatever you are doing and listen, non-judgementally. She needs to know that it's ok to feel angry with them and that you are a safe person to share those emotions with. Just listen, then when she's finished, tell her how proud you are that she remembered to come and talk to you instead of hitting. Give her a kiss and tell her that she can go back out to play, or she can go and play in her room if she needs more personal space. Never let the other kids interrupt her if she's taking time out. It may take time to get into the routine, but it's going to be less effort than everyone getting angry when she hits someone. Character development is better than punishment.

:)

Rosie