Fact checking History?

[DawnL]

Okay, maybe this is a weird question, but.....how do you know everything in the books is true? Just because someone publishes something as fact, doesn't mean it's true.

 

A little while ago, I bought a few children's encyclopedia books at Costco. They have pictures and a lot of information in them. Well, on thumbing through one of them, it says that the Buffalo were brought to near extinction by over hunting them. It goes on to say that they were over-hunted on purpose, by the whites that were settling the land. The books says the reason for this is that the settlers were hoping that if they took away a major food source, buffalo, from the native Americans, that they would then become dependent upon the new settlers.

 

I've never heard that before. Was it hidden before? Or made up now? How do I fact-check something like that?

 

To further emphasis how something may be inaccurate, there is mention of global warming and such, too. I am intending to tape a few facts into the book at those couple of pages. Not to hide what is said, but to provide true facts right there, to counter the misconceptions. That way my kids can read it all and be informed.

[Slartibartfast]

That is correct, they even shot Buffalo from moving trains, leaving the carcasses just laying there.

[happi duck]

One thing I love about homeschooling is that we can take the time to look at several sources from different viewpoints. One must take into consideration the source of information. Often it is only the victor or the powerful who get a say in what becomes "official" history. I am enjoying history much more as an adult and I'm finding it far more subjective than it was ever presented in school.

[Rosie_0801]

Historians are supposed to try to be objective, but can't help being subjective. It's an ideal, not reality. All the reader can do is follow the paper trail (footnotes) to see that they are not quoting information out of context, compare to other sources and think about whether their claims sound plausible.

 

Rosie

[melissel]

Well, on thumbing through one of them, it says that the Buffalo were brought to near extinction by over hunting them. It goes on to say that they were over-hunted on purpose, by the whites that were settling the land. The books says the reason for this is that the settlers were hoping that if they took away a major food source, buffalo, from the native Americans, that they would then become dependent upon the new settlers.

 

I actually just read something similar in a book about the Dust Bowl, though it wasn't so much that they wanted the Native Americans dependent on the settlers; they just wanted them gone so they could destroy the grass and farm the land. The buffalo were what tied the Native Americans to the land, so if the buffalo were gone, they'd have no reason to stay. It worked, with disastrous results, of course.

 

One thing I love about homeschooling is that we can take the time to look at several sources from different viewpoints. One must take into consideration the source of information. Often it is only the victor or the powerful who get a say in what becomes "official" history. I am enjoying history much more as an adult and I'm finding it far more subjective than it was ever presented in school.

 

Historians are supposed to try to be objective, but can't help being subjective. It's an ideal, not reality. All the reader can do is follow the paper trail (footnotes) to see that they are not quoting information out of context, compare to other sources and think about whether their claims sound plausible.

 

Rosie

 

In general, I agree with Rosie and happi duck. There's no such thing as purely objective history. The best you can do is learn from various sources, know your sources and their biases, and try to gain access to primary sources whenever possible.

[Carrie12345]

We're big on multiple sources in our house, especially when it comes to topics that are typically presented from a single viewpoint (Native Americans, wars, slavery). I happen to be a big Howard Zinn fan ;). I try hard to incorporate the... more critical stories in with the traditional perspective. I could spend days on the Zinn Education Project website.

 

I didn't learn that there were Japanese internment camps in America until I read a Danielle Steel novel. I've been highly suspicious of all "standard" history education since then. If my school was hiding something *that big (and relatively easy to discover eventually), what else weren't they telling me?

[Perry]

You might enjoy this book

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong

[mom31257]

I have been wondering about this myself. I want to do American history next year with my kids. I do want the truth, but I feel that most things I see are either written with too rosy a picture or that all white people are evil and the scourge of the Earth. I want books that treat America (and me!) with respect, because for all the bad and good in our past, I love being an American.

[Slartibartfast]

I actually just read something similar in a book about the Dust Bowl, though it wasn't so much that they wanted the Native Americans dependent on the settlers; they just wanted them gone so they could destroy the grass and farm the land. The buffalo were what tied the Native Americans to the land, so if the buffalo were gone, they'd have no reason to stay. It worked, with disastrous results, of course.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with this.

[DawnL]

I have been wondering about this myself. I want to do American history next year with my kids. I do want the truth, but I feel that most things I see are either written with too rosy a picture or that all white people are evil and the scourge of the Earth. I want books that treat America (and me!) with respect, because for all the bad and good in our past, I love being an American.

 

Yes! This is my exact point!

[melissel]

Yes! This is my exact point!

 

The K-8 Curriculum board is great for this purpose. You can search, and if you don't find what you're looking for, you can ask for sources that people with your general mindset (Christian, secular, anti-global climate change, pro-Native American, providential-history-oriented, etc.) have used and liked. For example, lots of people like the D'Aulaires biographies, but others find them dated and written from a perspective of Native Americans as savages--that sort of thing. There was a thread recently about just this issue. I may have it bookmarked. I'll come back and post if I can dig it up.

[ElizabethB]

The Catholic Encyclopedia Online has some interesting things that you won't find in other Encyclopedias. It has a (gasp!) pro-Catholic bias.

 

You can find a lot of sources on Google Books now, it's very powerful to be able to search within the text of old books. If you're looking for something in a particular timeframe, in the advanced search mode you can limit the years.

[Slartibartfast]

Er..well we are NA so we just tell the truth.

[Mrs Mungo]

A little while ago, I bought a few children's encyclopedia books at Costco. They have pictures and a lot of information in them. Well, on thumbing through one of them, it says that the Buffalo were brought to near extinction by over hunting them. It goes on to say that they were over-hunted on purpose, by the whites that were settling the land. The books says the reason for this is that the settlers were hoping that if they took away a major food source, buffalo, from the native Americans, that they would then become dependent upon the new settlers.

 

This is completely true. Like the others said, this was an intentional strategy employed by the US government to exterminate certain groups of Native Americans.

 

To quote General Phillip Sheridan:

 

Let them kill, skin, and sell until the buffalo is exterminated, as it is the only way to bring lasting peace and allow civilization to advance.

These men have done more in the last two years, and will do more in the next year, to settle the vexed Indian question, than the entire regular army has done in the last forty years. They are destroying the Indians' commissary. And it is a well known fact that an army losing its base of supplies is placed at a great disadvantage. Send them powder and lead, if you will; but for a lasting peace, let them kill, skin, and sell until the buffaloes are exterminated. Then your prairies can be covered with speckled cattle.

I emphatically disagree with the view that one should whitewash history. History is populated with *people*. They were people who did good *and* bad, people with flaws, people with biases, people who had bad ideas, people who made mistakes. That knowledge doesn't take anything away from being an American. It means that these flawed people made a difference and so can you-even if you are flawed, even if you make mistakes. Edited February 24, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[OrganicAnn]

There are pictures of the ground covered with thousands of dead buffulos and those who shot them posing with their guns over them. I'm not sure where you could find these pictures, but I would look first at the Library of Congress website. There are lots of original source material if you want to look for it. For example, you can get a adult history of what you are interested in and check out the footnotes and go to the sources. There are pictures, diaries, military dispatches, congressional reports, etc

 

You read any history (adult) of the west and you'll have some eye opening behavior of white Americans. History can't always cover these topics adequately for kids. I mean how can a history book be as explicit as necessary to adequately explain rape, genocide, slavery in history to kids. Unfortunately most adults don't read much history.

[Mrs Mungo]

There are pictures of the ground covered with thousands of dead buffulos and those who shot them posing with their guns over them.

 

http://www.learningfromlyrics.org/buffskulls.html

 

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee is a good place to start.

[Ibbygirl]

Gasp!! I NEVER knew all of this about the buffalo. Horrible! :eek:

[Slartibartfast]

 

I emphatically disagree with the view that one should whitewash history. History is populated with *people*. They were people who did good *and* bad, people with flaws, people with biases, people who had bad ideas, people who made mistakes. That knowledge doesn't take anything away from being an American or being white. It means that these flawed people made a difference and so can you-even if you are flawed, even if you make mistakes.

 

This is so. I get uncomfortable when people mention deliberately using pro-Christian materials because I then assume it is all going to be "Manifest Destiny! Yay!" and that makes me want to throw up.

 

I think it is important to teach the truth even if that doesn't coincide with one's agenda.

 

If someone wants to teach that white people didn't do anything wrong that just isn't factual. Obviously one can teach what they like but that isn't real History.

 

Everyone did wrong, I think it is important to teach my child wrongs as well as good things. If we ignore things as wrong, blow them off or excuse it then that doesn't teach our children to learn from their mistakes. I think a part of teaching history is a big moral lesson. We can look at people in history and see those who chose to do what was right, no matter how difficult. I want my child to make good choices as well.

 

My FIL often talks about Custer and how he was brave, I turn and tell my dd that he was a murderer of women and babies.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have been wondering about this myself. I want to do American history next year with my kids. I do want the truth, but I feel that most things I see are either written with too rosy a picture or that all white people are evil and the scourge of the Earth. I want books that treat America (and me!) with respect, because for all the bad and good in our past, I love being an American.

 

What has being white got to do with being an American?

 

My FIL often talks about Custer and how he was brave, I turn and tell my dd that he was a murderer of women and babies.

 

OH MY....WHAT?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!?!??! My head is going to explode.

[Guest]

I love "Lies My History Teacher Told Me," by James Loewen.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Okay, maybe this is a weird question, but.....how do you know everything in the books is true? Just because someone publishes something as fact, doesn't mean it's true.

 

A little while ago, I bought a few children's encyclopedia books at Costco. They have pictures and a lot of information in them. Well, on thumbing through one of them, it says that the Buffalo were brought to near extinction by over hunting them. It goes on to say that they were over-hunted on purpose, by the whites that were settling the land. The books says the reason for this is that the settlers were hoping that if they took away a major food source, buffalo, from the native Americans, that they would then become dependent upon the new settlers.

 

I've never heard that before. Was it hidden before? Or made up now? How do I fact-check something like that?

 

To further emphasis how something may be inaccurate, there is mention of global warming and such, too. I am intending to tape a few facts into the book at those couple of pages. Not to hide what is said, but to provide true facts right there, to counter the misconceptions. That way my kids can read it all and be informed.

 

History in textbooks and other resources can be accurate without being precise. They are often correct in a general sense, but not necessarily exactly true in specifics, especially regarding reasons and motives and opinions of individuals.

 

 

So many people bring their own assumptions to history without checking to see if they are valid. Dh teaches groups of tourists at a historical foundation and is amazed at how many people will not believe historical facts even when they are shown copies of primary documents. They don't want to admit that they may have been wrong because they have an emotional tie to thier perceived past. Even today, we the people of the human race are creating myths and legends that are swallowed whole by an relatively unquestioning and uncritical world.

 

As for myself, I'm beginning to believe that the interpretation of history that intentionally reveals the worst and the best of both sides is probably the truest.

[tajott]

this is a good reason to home educate. You have the freedom and the time to check up on the things you read, and if you don't like the slant of a particular book you can ditch it.

[Slartibartfast]

 

OH MY....WHAT?!?!??!?!?!!?!?!?!??! My head is going to explode.

 

I think he just likes to argue and hear me run my mouth. :lol: He often says inflammatory things to make me shout.

[Slartibartfast]

History in textbooks and other resources can be accurate without being precise. They are often correct in a general sense, but not necessarily exactly true in specifics, especially regarding reasons and motives and opinions of individuals.

 

 

So many people bring their own assumptions to history without checking to see if they are valid. Dh teaches groups of tourists at a historical foundation and is amazed at how many people will not believe historical facts even when they are shown copies of primary documents. They don't want to admit that they may have been wrong because they have an emotional tie to thier perceived past. Even today, we the people of the human race are creating myths and legends that are swallowed whole by an relatively unquestioning and uncritical world.

 

As for myself, I'm beginning to believe that the interpretation of history that intentionally reveals the worst and the best of both sides is probably the truest.

 

ITA :)

[OhM]

Ok - I just have to say it - BISON!!!!

 

I am constantly corrected by dd, whose second favorite animals (after pandas) are wooly mammoths, and third favorite - "baby bison" whenever I call the American beasts "buffalo".

 

Now back to your very edifying discussion of history/historical accuracy...

[Slartibartfast]

What has being white got to do with being an American?

 

My Native American ancestors fought in the Union Army so I am not really sure what it has to do with it.

[Splungeman]

"What is history but a fable agreed upon?" His Most Excellent Shortypants, Napoleon Bonaparte once said (if you believe the historical sources attributing that quote to him).

 

History looks different depending on what lens you are using. There is some sort of need within us to sugarcoat our past. We need heroes to be perfect. We need our villains to be monsters. We need all wars fought in our name to be just. I think our refusal to accept reality and truth is what holds us back in many ways as a species. We'll never learn from history if we are constantly editing it to make it more pleasing to our tastes.

[DawnL]

Oh, I don't think it should be edited. That's why in the global warming section, I'm taping in facts, but leaving what is written. I don't want to hide what some people think from my kids. I just want them to know what dh and I believe, and back it up with facts.

 

So, for history, such as the "baby bison" :D it is best to check more than one source, because everyone has a "spin" on it? I guess that makes sense. And I suppose Google is great for that.

 

I would like to find a "happy medium" for history, telling both good and bad. Too often, a race of people (such as whites) are painted as either really, really good, or really, really bad. There is good and bad to everyone, and every race, and I want the whole picture. Not just the pretty or ugly parts.

 

I had been looking at Sonlight for the fall. I don't suppose anyone might share if Sonlight has a balanced view of history? (I will have to post on the curriculum board tomorrow)

 

And thanks for all the info on the buffalo (*ahem* the "baby bison" ) That is very sad, and it's sad that I had never heard that before.

[Elisheva]

Just like you can't teach math if you don't understand it yourself, can't teach grammar if you don't know grammar, etc., you can't teach history unless you know and understand it yourself. It's not so much about mechanically checking footnotes (sometimes those are misleading) as it is about reading a variety of living, adult books on the subject, from different points of view (and frankly by different points of view I mean different serious scholars, not Howard Zinn vs. dominion theologians). Until gradually you begin to develop a big picture about history and can form a halfway-reliable judgment on where new information fits in. This is a lifelong project but IMO what classical education is all about. Try to guide your DC to look at history as filtering through the narratives received through various sources, rather than one right answer like on a math test.

[melissel]

Oh, Mrs. Mungo, you're right about this:

 

Then your prairies can be covered with speckled cattle.

 

I forgot my time line! The cattle ranchers were first, and when that failed, the government and land prospectors pushed it for farming.

 

Gasp!! I NEVER knew all of this about the buffalo. Horrible! :eek:

 

I just finished the book The Worst Hard Time, if you're interested. It covers the history of the plains a bit, including the issues we're discussing, but it's mainly a history of the Dust Bowl -- how it occurred, why people hung on for so long, remediation programs, etc. I was totally blown away. It's been a long time since I studied American history outside of WWII, and I had no idea how that all occurred. It was a fascinating book.

[Mrs Mungo]

Just like you can't teach math if you don't understand it yourself, can't teach grammar if you don't know grammar, etc., you can't teach history unless you know and understand it yourself. It's not so much about mechanically checking footnotes (sometimes those are misleading) as it is about reading a variety of living, adult books on the subject, from different points of view (and frankly by different points of view I mean different serious scholars, not Howard Zinn vs. dominion theologians). Until gradually you begin to develop a big picture about history and can form a halfway-reliable judgment on where new information fits in. This is a lifelong project but IMO what classical education is all about. Try to guide your DC to look at history as filtering through the narratives received through various sources, rather than one right answer like on a math test.

 

Also, when it comes to kids *and* adults, check primary sources and secondary sources from the time.

 

Things like:

government documents

newspaper stories

diaries

first-hand accounts

speeches

political posters and pamphlets

 

I think starting with Howard Zinn, dominion history or regular old history texts is fine *to start*. But, then you use historiography-what do *other* texts say about this? Then you move to primary source documents.

 

For example-many history books imply that the south owned slaves because they grew labor-intensive crops such as tobacco. However, this ignores the fact that tobacco was *also* grown in the NE, without slaves. Do you make more money using unpaid labor? Sure you do. Is it possible to make a good living using paid labor? Yes. When you look at the whole picture you can see that this discussion has a *continued* economic story-is it possible to make a good living using American workers at an American factory? Yes. Do you make more money paying a child in Indonesia $2/day? Of course.

[AngelBee]

"What is history but a fable agreed upon?" His Most Excellent Shortypants, Napoleon Bonaparte once said (if you believe the historical sources attributing that quote to him).

 

History looks different depending on what lens you are using. There is some sort of need within us to sugarcoat our past. We need heroes to be perfect. We need our villains to be monsters. We need all wars fought in our name to be just. I think our refusal to accept reality and truth is what holds us back in many ways as a species. We'll never learn from history if we are constantly editing it to make it more pleasing to our tastes.

 

:iagree:

[Ibbygirl]

I just finished the book The Worst Hard Time, if you're interested. It covers the history of the plains a bit, including the issues we're discussing, but it's mainly a history of the Dust Bowl -- how it occurred, why people hung on for so long, remediation programs, etc. I was totally blown away. It's been a long time since I studied American history outside of WWII, and I had no idea how that all occurred. It was a fascinating book.

 

Thank you!!! That looks awesome. Just added it to my wishlist. :)

[melissel]

Thank you!!! That looks awesome. Just added it to my wishlist. :)

 

You are so welcome. Also, for your immediate gratification:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/dustbowl/introduction

 

You can watch the documentary online, and Netflix has it well. Melt White, one of the men interviewed, is the same Melt White written about in the Egan book, and you should be able to see the famous photo of his father, Bam, standing behind the plow for the government-backed film that was made about the Dust Bowl during Roosevelt's presidency. The documentary and the book make a great pairing. Hope you enjoy!

[Ibbygirl]

You are so welcome. Also, for your immediate gratification:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/dustbowl/introduction

 

You can watch the documentary online, and Netflix has it well. Melt White, one of the men interviewed, is the same Melt White written about in the Egan book, and you should be able to see the famous photo of his father, Bam, standing behind the plow for the government-backed film that was made about the Dust Bowl during Roosevelt's presidency. The documentary and the book make a great pairing. Hope you enjoy!

 

Thank you so much. You rock! :) :grouphug:

[melissel]

Thank you so much. You rock! :) :grouphug:

 

Aw! :grouphug: I try :D

[Mrs Mungo]

You are so welcome. Also, for your immediate gratification:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/dustbowl/introduction

 

You can watch the documentary online, and Netflix has it well. Melt White, one of the men interviewed, is the same Melt White written about in the Egan book, and you should be able to see the famous photo of his father, Bam, standing behind the plow for the government-backed film that was made about the Dust Bowl during Roosevelt's presidency. The documentary and the book make a great pairing. Hope you enjoy!

 

This is another issue that has a continuing connection to modern politics. Did you know modern farm conglomerates have tried repeatedly fought to make soil erosion plans in Oklahoma and Kansas "voluntary?" Check out the "Freedom to Farm" act.

[melissel]

This is another issue that has a continuing connection to modern politics. Did you know modern farm conglomerates have tried repeatedly fought to make soil erosion plans in Oklahoma and Kansas "voluntary?" Check out the "Freedom to Farm" act.

 

Oh, I don't doubt that for one minute :glare: Now that they think they have access to all the water they could possibly need from the aquifer (until it runs out, of course), they don't really care.

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, I don't doubt that for one minute :glare: Now that they think they have access to all the water they could possibly need from the aquifer (until it runs out, of course), they don't really care.

 

Really, it's a travesty what happened with the aquifer. I don't get why people are so eager to hand over control of resources to big business like that.