Another s/o about models and plus sizes and "regular" women

[Ginevra]

This is a little bit of a complaint. :tongue_smilie: I don't chime in with the view that magazines, ads, etc. should be filled with pictures of women who are sz 12-22 or some such. The whole reason beautiful, thin, young, sexy woman are used to promote clothing, perfume, makeup, shampoo, etc. is marketing. The entire point is to influence consumers to think, "If I use Clinique Forever Young Cream, my skin will look smooth and flawless like this woman" (nevermind that she is 18 in the first place and photoshopped besides). Also, when the market is a more mature woman (such as LL Bean or Lands End), you still see a very attractive "version" of a more mature woman. It would make no sense for a catalog to show their pants on a woman who is large because most women don't aim to look large. It would make no sense to show their bathing suits on women with flab and rolls because most women don't want to be reminded that their flab and rolls will be visible in that bathing suit. We want to think, "That bathing suit will hide my flab and since that model looks good in it and she looks like a 30-something, like me, perhaps I will look good in it, too."

 

I've had 4 babies. I'm well aware of the effect it can have on the abdominal region. I have not the slightest interest in seeing the flabby bellies of other women, just so I can say, "Well, that's nice. At least I'm not the only one." :tongue_smilie:

 

Do we really look to magazines and ads to decide what looks good and if we are satisfied with our own appearance? I don't. I know how I wish to look. I do what is practical and possible to look the way I want to look. Whatever else is outside of that just is. :rolleyes:

 

I also think it's interesting that you never, ever, ever, ever hear men make a similar complaint. I've never heard my husband, upon looking through the Eddie Bauer catalog, exclaim, "Why don't they use real guys? Most men do not look like this woodsy, mountaineering, chisel-faced man with the gorgeous fistful of hair! Where are the beer bellies? Where are the saggy-butt jeans with a crack showing?" :lol:

[Mergath]

I think the difference is between regular, attractive women who just happen to be more attractive and fit than the general population, and said women who have been photoshopped and airbrushed to the point that no one, ever, is really going to look like that.

 

I have no problem with companies using attractive people to market their products- that's just to be expected. But when they use women who are already emaciated, and then airbrush them to make them look even thinner, and then market their product to make young girls think that if they buy the product, they could look like that, well, that I have a problem with. Some of the women in these ad campaigns have been digitally altered so much that they don't even look human anymore, so our kids really are aspiring to an impossible ideal. No one is saying that companies should use models with rolls and boils and a beard (or whatever) but it would be nice to see women in magazines who could theoretically exist in real life.

[Wendi]

I think the difference is between regular, attractive women who just happen to be more attractive and fit than the general population, and said women who have been photoshopped and airbrushed to the point that no one, ever, is really going to look like that.

 

I have no problem with companies using attractive people to market their products- that's just to be expected. But when they use women who are already emaciated, and then airbrush them to make them look even thinner, and then market their product to make young girls think that if they buy the product, they could look like that, well, that I have a problem with. Some of the women in these ad campaigns have been digitally altered so much that they don't even look human anymore, so our kids really are aspiring to an impossible ideal. No one is saying that companies should use models with rolls and boils and a beard (or whatever) but it would be nice to see women in magazines who could theoretically exist in real life.

:iagree:

[Hockey Mom]

I think the difference is between regular, attractive women who just happen to be more attractive and fit than the general population, and said women who have been photoshopped and airbrushed to the point that no one, ever, is really going to look like that.

 

I have no problem with companies using attractive people to market their products- that's just to be expected. But when they use women who are already emaciated, and then airbrush them to make them look even thinner, and then market their product to make young girls think that if they buy the product, they could look like that, well, that I have a problem with. Some of the women in these ad campaigns have been digitally altered so much that they don't even look human anymore, so our kids really are aspiring to an impossible ideal. No one is saying that companies should use models with rolls and boils and a beard (or whatever) but it would be nice to see women in magazines who could theoretically exist in real life.

:iagree:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think the difference is between regular, attractive women who just happen to be more attractive and fit than the general population, and said women who have been photoshopped and airbrushed to the point that no one, ever, is really going to look like that.

 

I have no problem with companies using attractive people to market their products- that's just to be expected. But when they use women who are already emaciated, and then airbrush them to make them look even thinner, and then market their product to make young girls think that if they buy the product, they could look like that, well, that I have a problem with. Some of the women in these ad campaigns have been digitally altered so much that they don't even look human anymore, so our kids really are aspiring to an impossible ideal. No one is saying that companies should use models with rolls and boils and a beard (or whatever) but it would be nice to see women in magazines who could theoretically exist in real life.

:iagree: Gee I think Marilyn Monroe would be considered too fat by the standards of most fashion magazines:001_huh:

 

I am tired of the emaciated models:glare:

[IsabelC]

It's a recognized fact that people do judge themselves against what they see around them. That fact remains true, statistically, even if you are one of the very few people who don't. Most people do. Even if they don't realize it. It's a weird facet of human nature that we tend to think we are immune. (Disclaimer: I am making up figures here because I don't have the research findings in front of me, but it goes along these lines.) 90% of people agree that consumers are influenced by advertising. 20% of people agree that they, personally, are influenced by advertising. Therefore, 70% of people are influenced, but believe that they are not. I would imagine the stats would be similar for body image. Of course, if we lived in a society where we saw a full range of ordinary people 's bodies on a daily basis, the media portrayal would look as ridiculous as it is, and wouldn't be a problem. Hence cultures where semi nudity is the norm do not have body dysmorpia, eating disorders and so on.

[KidsHappen]

It's a recognized fact that people do judge themselves against what they see around them. That fact remains true, statistically, even if you are one of the very few people who don't. Most people do. Even if they don't realize it. It's a weird facet of human nature that we tend to think we are immune. (Disclaimer: I am making up figures here because I don't have the research findings in front of me, but it goes along these lines.) 90% of people agree that consumers are influenced by advertising. 20% of people agree that they, personally, are influenced by advertising. Therefore, 70% of people are influenced, but believe that they are not. I would imagine the stats would be similar for body image. Of course, if we lived in a society where we saw a full range of ordinary people 's bodies on a daily basis, the media portrayal would look as ridiculous as it is, and wouldn't be a problem. Hence cultures where semi nudity is the norm do not have body dysmorpia, eating disorders and so on.

 

:iagree: I have lived in both Europe and Asia and they do not have the same problems we have here. Their models are attractive but they also represent a wider variety of the population.

[Elisheva]

This begs the question of why thinness is what is aspired to.

[Ginevra]

Some of the women in these ad campaigns have been digitally altered so much that they don't even look human anymore, so our kids really are aspiring to an impossible ideal. No one is saying that companies should use models with rolls and boils and a beard (or whatever) but it would be nice to see women in magazines who could theoretically exist in real life.

 

For one thing, I don't buy that anyone aspires to look like an emaciated woman who has been photoshopped to look even skinnier. Unless a person has a mental disorder, they don't aspire to be a skeleton with skin overlay.

 

Also, what is so difficult about telling our kids that those pictures are not what the woman actually looks like? My daughter, who is 12, just recently remarked about exactly this. She said, "That girl is so photoshopped, she doesn't even look real anymore. Nobody's eyes look like that." (Because they were so blue, they looked like they were colored with a magic marker.)

 

I agree that we, the general population, are influenced to what is attractive and have been since at least ancient history. I have been culturally influenced to agree that it is attractive to not have a flabby belly and cheesecake thighs. I would not mind looking like Jillian. But seeing a picture in a magazine of a woman with a 22" waist and a 38" chest doesn't make me think that I should have those proportions. I know that it would not be possible without surgery and it may not even be possible then. So, to me, it's no big deal that models are thin and pretty and photoshopped. I'm not a model and I don't plan to be one, so...who cares?

[Elisheva]

Not everybody is as strong-minded as you, especially the very young, and dismissing those who fall prey to such images as mentally disordered does nothing to allay their suffering.

 

There's also the argument that people of all shapes, sizes, colors, disabilities etc. should be able to see positive depictions of people like themselves in the media to further social inclusion/equality.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is a little bit of a complaint. :tongue_smilie: I don't chime in with the view that magazines, ads, etc. should be filled with pictures of women who are sz 12-22 or some such. The whole reason beautiful, thin, young, sexy woman are used to promote clothing, perfume, makeup, shampoo, etc. is marketing. The entire point is to influence consumers to think, "If I use Clinique Forever Young Cream, my skin will look smooth and flawless like this woman" (nevermind that she is 18 in the first place and photoshopped besides).

 

At one time? Sure, true. Now? I don't think women think that *at all*. When they show an *obviously* heavily photoshopped Twiggy (because she's still on tv and we KNOW what she actually looks like) selling eye cream, we know they are totally full of crap. This style of marketing is starting to work *against* such companies, imo. My mom was using eye cream by the time she was my age. I do not and I don't know anyone who does (I've asked).

 

I also think it's interesting that you never, ever, ever, ever hear men make a similar complaint. I've never heard my husband, upon looking through the Eddie Bauer catalog, exclaim, "Why don't they use real guys? Most men do not look like this woodsy, mountaineering, chisel-faced man with the gorgeous fistful of hair! Where are the beer bellies? Where are the saggy-butt jeans with a crack showing?" :lol:

Are you kidding? Movies and tv shows are full of unattractive, beer-bellied guys with *gorgeous*, thin wives or girlfriends. Have you seen Couples Retreat? photo here Jason Bateman is the only decent looking guy but the women are all super-hot.

 

Anne Bancroft was FOUR years older than Dustin Hoffman when she played the older woman seductress in The Graduate. There is NO comparison to how men and women are treated in media.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[IsabelC]

This begs the question of why thinness is what is aspired to.

 

Scarcity value. What is hardest to achieve is most desired. It is estimated that only about 2-4% of women, worldwide, have "ideal" look. The rest of us either cannot achieve it at all (too old, too short, "wrong" bone structure, etc) or can only manage it with radical alteration to our bodies. In other times/places where full-figured was/is the sought after shape, you see the opposite situation, with many thin people and only a few able to be plump.

[IsabelC]

At one time? Sure, true. Now? I don't think women think that *at all*. When they show an *obviously* heavily photoshopped Twiggy (because she's still on tv and we KNOW what she actually looks like) selling eye cream, we know they are totally full of crap. This style of marketing is starting to work *against* such companies, imo. My mom was using eye cream by the time she was my age. I do not and I don't know anyone who does (I've asked).

 

It isn't about what we know, though. Of course everybody over a certain age would be aware that the images in the media are modified and unrealistic. But advertising works on our subconscious. We don't literally believe that male models will be after us in droves if we wear x perfume. But our subconscious buys into the image. If it didn't work, they companies wouldn't spend so much money doing it.

[Ginevra]

But advertising works on our subconscious. We don't literally believe that male models will be after us in droves if we wear x perfume. But our subconscious buys into the image. If it didn't work, they companies wouldn't spend so much money doing it.

 

I agree that it works in that respect. I agree that even I, strong-minded though I may be, do sometimes buy X and not Y product because of marketing, packaging and perception. I just realized something like this a few days ago when I was buying cat food of all things. I said to myself, "Why do I buy this cat food and not that one when they are both made by the same company, probably compare nutritionally and the one I buy costs more?" I realized the reason is because the packaging of the one cat food appeals to me more. It looks sophisticated and "upscale". The other looks...cozy? Homey? Downscale.

 

What I disagree with is the idea that because a particular image is held up as an ideal that I must feel badly about myself because I cannot look like that. I find it hard to believe that most women have so fragile a self-image that they can't objectively see a Victoria's Secret model and know that only a tiny percentage of women in the entire world look like that - and then, even they only have 5 or 7 years to market that look, after which they will be too old. I saw a model in VS catalog recently that I swear looked about 15! It gave me the creeps a little bit. She could have been my niece.

[Parrothead]

 

What I disagree with is the idea that because a particular image is held up as an ideal that I must feel badly about myself because I cannot look like that. I find it hard to believe that most women have so fragile a self-image that they can't objectively see a Victoria's Secret model and know that only a tiny percentage of women in the entire world look like that - and then, even they only have 5 or 7 years to market that look, after which they will be too old. I saw a model in VS catalog recently that I swear looked about 15! It gave me the creeps a little bit. She could have been my niece.

Oh, but they do. All those diet pill companies would be out of business if women realized that being a size 0 is almost impossible for the average person. There would not be so many cosmetic surgeries. There would not be so many choices for "diet" food.

 

People, not just women, buy into this look all the time. It is a vicious cycle.

[dirty ethel rackham]

 

What I disagree with is the idea that because a particular image is held up as an ideal that I must feel badly about myself because I cannot look like that. I find it hard to believe that most women have so fragile a self-image that they can't objectively see a Victoria's Secret model and know that only a tiny percentage of women in the entire world look like that - and then, even they only have 5 or 7 years to market that look, after which they will be too old. I saw a model in VS catalog recently that I swear looked about 15! It gave me the creeps a little bit. She could have been my niece.

 

But the problem is not the impact of one particular image on one particular person. As a society, we are bombarded with images promoting unnatural thinness with unnatural booKs as what is beautiful, that it becomes the "de facto norm" despite the fact that it is not attainable. Even if we are careful to avoid advertising, we really cannot leave our houses without encountering these images. It is the sheer quantity of those images that affects us on the subconscious level.

 

This one particular model making news because she is "plus-sized" that shows how insidious this situation really is.

Edited February 23, 2010 by dirty ethel rackham

[Hockey Mom]

 

What I disagree with is the idea that because a particular image is held up as an ideal that I must feel badly about myself because I cannot look like that. I find it hard to believe that most women have so fragile a self-image that they can't objectively see a Victoria's Secret model and know that only a tiny percentage of women in the entire world look like that - and then, even they only have 5 or 7 years to market that look, after which they will be too old. I saw a model in VS catalog recently that I swear looked about 15! It gave me the creeps a little bit. She could have been my niece.

 

And MY objection (specifically with VS, since you brought it up), is that their advertising is in plain view of young people. While most adults will look at that poster hanging in the mall and know that it isn't real, most kids will look at the same poster and think the women being displayed are the "norm". Young girls starve themselves to achieve that look. Young men learn to reject "normal" girls because they aren't model-perfect.

 

You mention that some of the models looked underage. I've seen those models. To me, that is a form of child pornography. Doesn't matter if the model is over 18...they are marketing her as a teenager.

 

There is an excellent book called, Battlecry for a Generation, by Ron Luce that you should read. Our children are walking targets for unhealthy images of others and themselves. And they are conditioned by the media by age 4.

[Elisheva]

I think a big part of the problem is that many just-developing young girls, maybe around age 11-14, *do* look like that. For a short time. I did. And then when they stop looking like that, they think they're "getting fat" and doing something wrong, rather than simply acquiring a more mature shape. And some women continue feeling that way about it their entire lives, because the voices that would tell them different are drowned out.

[cathmom]

Are you kidding? Movies and tv shows are full of unattractive, beer-bellied guys with *gorgeous*, thin wives or girlfriends. Have you seen Couples Retreat? photo here Jason Bateman is the only decent looking guy but the women are all super-hot.

 

Anne Bancroft was FOUR years older than Dustin Hoffman when she played the older woman seductress in The Graduate. There is NO comparison to how men and women are treated in media.

 

If you watch the commentary on the movie Sense and Sensibility, Emma Thompson comments on this. She says that people were telling her she looked too old to be Hugh Grant's love interest, while they are actually the same age! She said that as a society, in movies and TV, we are so used to seeing older men/younger women that an actor and actress of the same age don't look like a match. When I saw Love Actually (which they are both in), and she runs into Hugh Grant and starts crying on her "older brother's" chest, I had to wonder if that was in the movie for that reason. Because I am sure that most people watching that movie assumed that Hugh Grant was her younger brother.

[Carol in Cal.]

If you watch the commentary on the movie Sense and Sensibility, Emma Thompson comments on this. She says that people were telling her she looked too old to be Hugh Grant's love interest, while they are actually the same age! She said that as a society, in movies and TV, we are so used to seeing older men/younger women that an actor and actress of the same age don't look like a match.

 

Yes, and this is not just recent. What about "Some Enchanted Evening" in South Pacific? What about Michael Douglas and Melanie Griffith in "Shining Through"? Really, the old man with young woman thing has been normalized completely by media.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I love love love this doll:

 

 

http://www.piercemattie.com/beautydivision/2006/10/the_body_shop_antibarbie_doll.html

[Ginevra]

As a society, we are bombarded with images promoting unnatural thinness with unnatural booKs as what is beautiful, that it becomes the "de facto norm" despite the fact that it is not attainable. Even if we are careful to avoid advertising, we really cannot leave our houses without encountering these images. It is the sheer quantity of those images that affects us on the subconscious level.

 

That is a good point.

 

You mention that some of the models looked underage. I've seen those models. To me, that is a form of child pornography. Doesn't matter if the model is over 18...they are marketing her as a teenager.

 

That is true.

 

Young men learn to reject "normal" girls because they aren't model-perfect.

 

I don't agree with this, though. Any young man in the "market" for a girl will soon realize that he will have to choose from the "normal" girls. How many men can afford to reject the normal girls in favor of a model-perfect girl? Most of us ladies here are married, but how many of us looked like a VS model when our dh's met us? And did they demand that we look like that? Had he ever been so silly as to say some such thing, I would have pointed to the cover of GQ and told him he must look like that! :D

[WishboneDawn]

I just want to suggest something a little different. What about instead of mindlessly accepting skinnyness as the acceptable norm OR dismissing skinny models as unhealthy role models we decided that those are just pictures of other woman that we can appreciate as we appreciate our own bodies? Why is the dynamic that we either have to accept or reject those body images? Why is the default thinking that they should have some bearing on how we view ourselves?

 

Honestly, skinny women DO have beautiful bodies. Some of those models that are a size 0 or 2 can create absolutely beautiful poses and angles because they're a size 2 or 0. Women that are those sizes should be celebrated as much as a woman like me who has a delightfully puffy size 18 or 20 body. And before you say they ARE celebrated I'll maintain they aren't. They're used like sex is in our culture. A tool to sell us things rather then something we recognize for it's own value. And maybe when we denounce those bodies as unrealistic and unhealthy we're buying into the idea that they're just tools and not recognizing that they're real women with real lives own those bodies.

 

When my daughter an I watch a Top Model show or Project Runway or something like that I try to keep away from any health judgements about the women on the show. I have no idea whether they're naturally that size or not. I try to talk about the admiration I have for how beautiful some of the women are or maybe about their behaviour. And then when we're watching something else where there are women of more diverse body types (although skinny women tend to have wonderfully diverse body types as well) I'll talk about the same things and be upfront about my admiration of their beauty.

 

I don't think we'll win this battle by condemning some body type as unhealthy or unrealistic. I think we'll help girls honestly view their own bodies and beauty by honestly seeing the bodies and beauty of all the women around us, whether they're athletic or curvy, short or tall, fat or skinny, pear or apple, etc.

[fairfarmhand]

I am only now coming to the realization that I will NEVER have the body I did when I was 17. I always thought that if/ when I quit having babies every 3 or 4 yrs. I'd be able to get it back. Well, those babies took a toll on me!!! Also, your body at age 17 is not an accurate ideal for a real "WOMAN" body. Most of us are super active and out metabolism hasn't bottomed out at age 17. I think all these models and actresses set up an unrealistic expectation of what REAL women should look like.

[Mrs Mungo]

I find it hard to believe that most women have so fragile a self-image that they can't objectively see a Victoria's Secret model and know that only a tiny percentage of women in the entire world look like that - and then, even they only have 5 or 7 years to market that look, after which they will be too old.

 

OK, between this and Jessica's post I can see that I'm not explaining myself well enough here, I'll explain a bit further down...

 

I saw a model in VS catalog recently that I swear looked about 15! It gave me the creeps a little bit. She could have been my niece.

I agree, some of them *do* look so young that it's creepy. On the other hand, I'm getting to the age where some of the young soldiers look like they are 15 to me. :tongue_smilie:

 

But the problem is not the impact of one particular image on one particular person. As a society, we are bombarded with images promoting unnatural thinness with unnatural booKs as what is beautiful, that it becomes the "de facto norm" despite the fact that it is not attainable. Even if we are careful to avoid advertising, we really cannot leave our houses without encountering these images. It is the sheer quantity of those images that affects us on the subconscious level.

 

This one particular model making news because she is "plus-sized" that shows how insidious this situation really is.

 

Right, I agree.

 

And MY objection (specifically with VS, since you brought it up), is that their advertising is in plain view of young people. While most adults will look at that poster hanging in the mall and know that it isn't real, most kids will look at the same poster and think the women being displayed are the "norm". Young girls starve themselves to achieve that look. Young men learn to reject "normal" girls because they aren't model-perfect.

 

You mention that some of the models looked underage. I've seen those models. To me, that is a form of child pornography. Doesn't matter if the model is over 18...they are marketing her as a teenager.

 

I agree with this too.

 

If you watch the commentary on the movie Sense and Sensibility, Emma Thompson comments on this. She says that people were telling her she looked too old to be Hugh Grant's love interest, while they are actually the same age! She said that as a society, in movies and TV, we are so used to seeing older men/younger women that an actor and actress of the same age don't look like a match. When I saw Love Actually (which they are both in), and she runs into Hugh Grant and starts crying on her "older brother's" chest, I had to wonder if that was in the movie for that reason. Because I am sure that most people watching that movie assumed that Hugh Grant was her younger brother.

 

Exactly. Honestly, name one movie where there is a completely unattractive woman who has a drop-dead gorgeous boyfriend. Men are treated completely differently by the media.

 

I don't agree with this, though. Any young man in the "market" for a girl will soon realize that he will have to choose from the "normal" girls. How many men can afford to reject the normal girls in favor of a model-perfect girl?

 

But I think they *are* starting to reject them on this basis. We have a lot of young officers in our acquaintance. Two of the guys we know while intelligent, are not attractive *at all* (IMO). Despite the fact they aren't attractive they think their girlfriends should be super-model beautiful. My husband came home complaining about a couple of guys at work who don't have sex with their wives any more because they have gained so much weight. When my dh pointed out that they weren't that big of a prize, themselves they said "well, I go the gym and try to take care of myself," my dh had to point out that while they were at the gym, after work, their *wife* was home with their kids. We know tons of guys who have gotten divorces and married young, trophy wives. They get those women because they have money. Once the new wife is too demanding or spends too much money or finds a young boyfriend they just get a new one. Do all men think like this? No, absolutely not. Are a lot of men starting to think this way? Yes, I think they are.

 

I just want to suggest something a little different. What about instead of mindlessly accepting skinnyness as the acceptable norm OR dismissing skinny models as unhealthy role models we decided that those are just pictures of other woman that we can appreciate as we appreciate our own bodies? Why is the dynamic that we either have to accept or reject those body images? Why is the default thinking that they should have some bearing on how we view ourselves?

 

Honestly, skinny women DO have beautiful bodies. <snip>

 

I don't think we'll win this battle by condemning some body type as unhealthy or unrealistic. I think we'll help girls honestly view their own bodies and beauty by honestly seeing the bodies and beauty of all the women around us, whether they're athletic or curvy, short or tall, fat or skinny, pear or apple, etc.

 

I must have made a mistake in expressing myself. When I talked of unrealistic body types, I was *specifically* talking about what Kids Happen mentioned, about certain "men's magazines." The vast majority of those woman are surgically enhanced and heavily photoshopped. That is unrealistic. Nobody, not even the girls themselves, looks like that.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mrs Mungo
typo

[IsabelC]

I love love love this doll:

 

 

http://www.piercemattie.com/beautydivision/2006/10/the_body_shop_antibarbie_doll.html

 

Interesting that, while the doll portrays a more normal (in the statistical sense of the word) amount of fat for an adult woman, she nevertheless has bright red lips, huge baby animal caricatured eyes, long lashes, tiny nose and feet, and a completely hairless body.

Yay - I'm allowed to be fat as long as I'm acceptably shaven and painted!

Edited February 25, 2010 by Hotdrink