rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 My DD was in honors classes when I chose to start hsing. I can not believe the huge gaps I am finding in grammar. She is in 9th grade. Do you know that they have not even taught the kids to diagram a sentence?!:glare: I need to take her back to the basics without her feeling "dumb". She is very bright, and will catch on fast. She has not even memorized her linking verbs. How do these people expect children to write good papers if the don't even know sentence parts.:confused: What do I do? I don't even know where to start. My 6th grader is doing great. I took her out in 4th, and we have been using R&S. I love it. I think I need something with basic grammar, sentence structure, writing, and maybe even a spelling program. How does one do so well on standard test, and not know basic info? She was recognized on all her TAKS test in school. She is not feeling very good about herself, and I am feeling like a complete failure. I would appreciate any advice you might have.:bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I'd put her in either Rod and Staff or Abeka at a lower level and just move through it faster if she's catching on well. The Abeka sequence for that age is still called Grammar and Composition I, II, III (I think), so there's no grade level on it that would make her feel your're using a lower level. Rod and Staff might have grade numbers on the cover..... One thing about grammar, it repeats itself to a large extent every year, so even if you start her on a grade level text (and just move through it more slowly if you need to), it should probably work out okay for her. I simply love Spelling Workout for spelling, and the last two levels of it are really more word studies, too, so you might work her through at least those two levels (G and H). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 It's fast, it's advanced, and she would be challenged but not driven crazy by it. Rod and Staff is great, but she needs to get a solid overview quickly and Rod and Staff is more of a slow and steady wins the race curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 I'd put her in either Rod and Staff or Abeka at a lower level and just move through it faster if she's catching on well. QUOTE] How would I even know what level to start on? :001_huh: I am going to look up the spelling program right now. Thanks! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 It's fast, it's advanced, and she would be challenged but not driven crazy by it. Rod and Staff is great, but she needs to get a solid overview quickly and Rod and Staff is more of a slow and steady wins the race curriculum. This looks super. I am going to look at it right now. :001_smile: Thanks. I feel like pulling my hair out. Arrrggg!:cursing: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendall Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I think you could start with R & S 6 and just move through it quickly, skipping lots as needed. I think doing grammar through R & S 8th is sufficient;I don't do grammar alone after that book. We do apply it and meet it in writing books. I think many do R & S 8th in high school. We all have gaps. Encourage yourself and your daughter to tackle those gaps with confidence and don't feel bad that they are there. Make it a challenge to get up to speed, not a discouragment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I think you could easily do level 7 or 8 with her. She's bright, right? She's going to catch on to it. Diagramming work (at least in Abeka) starts out with just doing subject/verb. Then you slowly add in doing adjectives, adverbs, compliments, and all the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 She is not feeling very good about herself, and I am feeling like a complete failure. I would appreciate any advice you might have.:bigear:It sounds like she's a bright kid, and the things you're talking about can be caught up. I'd be careful how I spoke about this with her. She doesn't need to learn "basic grammar," she needs a robust and full fledged grammar program... that one is a step in the other is inconsequential. She's not a failure for not knowing something she was never taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 How useful do you think it would be at this point to spend time doing a full fledged grammar course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelanieM Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I have no suggestions to make as I'm not yet there with my own kids, but I wanted to comment to say that this doesn't have to be a huge deal. I know many people, myself included, that can write a solid paper yet can't diagram a sentence. I also don't recall ever memorizing lists of verbs once in all my years of schooling. Not to say you shouldn't cover grammar with her; I agree it's valuable information to have. I just wanted to offer up some reasurance for you, and your daughter, that this is a relatively minor thing that is not at all uncommon, and can easily be rectified without lasting negative consequence. Best of luck choosing a program! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 My DD was in honors classes when I chose to start hsing. I can not believe the huge gaps I am finding in grammar. She is in 9th grade. Do you know that they have not even taught the kids to diagram a sentence?!:glare: I need to take her back to the basics without her feeling "dumb". She is very bright, and will catch on fast. She has not even memorized her linking verbs. How do these people expect children to write good papers if the don't even know sentence parts.:confused: What do I do? I don't even know where to start. My 6th grader is doing great. I took her out in 4th, and we have been using R&S. I love it. I think I need something with basic grammar, sentence structure, writing, and maybe even a spelling program. How does one do so well on standard test, and not know basic info? She was recognized on all her TAKS test in school. She is not feeling very good about herself, and I am feeling like a complete failure. I would appreciate any advice you might have.:bigear: Oh, now, I don't think she *needs* to diagram sentences, but she *does* need to have a good grasp of grammar. I would lean more towards Easy Grammar Plus and Easy Writing (which works with sentence structure, not writing in toto), and maybe Writing Strands. Not sure I'd try to have her jump into R&S at this late date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsacco Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 My son (7th) is doing the basic diagramming workbook right along with my 4th grader. Granted, his LA has it in it (CLE 7).... but this caught him up pretty quickly... http://www.amazon.com/Skills-Sentence-Structure-Through-Diagraming/dp/1568221754/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266698653&sr=8-7 I have heard this one is good too: http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Diagramming-Sentences-Advanced-Straight/dp/093199375X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266698653&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 (edited) .. Edited March 23, 2013 by 3kt68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 I think you could easily do level 7 or 8 with her. She's bright, right? She's going to catch on to it. Diagramming work (at least in Abeka) starts out with just doing subject/verb. Then you slowly add in doing adjectives, adverbs, compliments, and all the rest. Thank you. Yes, very bright. I just think there is a mental block with English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 It sounds like she's a bright kid, and the things you're talking about can be caught up. I'd be careful how I spoke about this with her. She doesn't need to learn "basic grammar," she needs a robust and full fledged grammar program... that one is a step in the other is inconsequential. She's not a failure for not knowing something she was never taught. :iagree:I am being very careful in how I speak to her about it. It is just hard for her when her sister that is 3yrs younger is not having trouble. I just keep reminding her that I took little sister out earlier, so she is learning earlier than big sister did. Walking on eggshells here. I am so aggravated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 How useful do you think it would be at this point to spend time doing a full fledged grammar course? Very. How can you write a research paper or a good essay without proper sentence structure? I never realized there was a problem because her standard test scores were so high in PS.:glare: She is very good with looking at the example and getting every question right. I don't want her to just feed it back to me. I want her to know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Oh, now, I don't think she *needs* to diagram sentences, but she *does* need to have a good grasp of grammar. I would lean more towards Easy Grammar Plus and Easy Writing (which works with sentence structure, not writing in toto), and maybe Writing Strands. Not sure I'd try to have her jump into R&S at this late date. Someone pointed out Analytical Grammar in an earlier post for me. I looked at it and was wow! It looks great.:001_smile: I have heard about Writing Strands. I have been meaning to take a peek at it. Hmmm...I think I will look that up next. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 My son (7th) is doing the basic diagramming workbook right along with my 4th grader. Granted, his LA has it in it (CLE 7).... but this caught him up pretty quickly... http://www.amazon.com/Skills-Sentence-Structure-Through-Diagraming/dp/1568221754/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266698653&sr=8-7 I have heard this one is good too: http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Diagramming-Sentences-Advanced-Straight/dp/093199375X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266698653&sr=8-1 Many thanks!:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Finally, along the same lines as another poster has said, I wouldn't mention anything about how behind she may be - or anything similar - to her. It may discourage her to the point that she figures 'Why try'. You can always come here and tell us how disgusted you are about the situation .... and get tons of free advice in the process. ;) HTH Kathy :iagree: and thank God! Every question I have ever posted has been answered with great advice. I have to thank everyone here for the support you provide. It builds my confidence to know I am not alone, and gives me a place to start when looking for answers.:grouphug: Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in AL Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Someone pointed out Analytical Grammar in an earlier post for me. I looked at it and was wow! It looks great.:001_smile: I also recommend Analytical Grammar. We used Easy Grammar in the past and the kids found it boring to the point of tears. I then switched to AG and they find it much better. If you give AG a try, what I did with my kids was to do it a bit differently than go cover to cover. It is broken into three 'seasons', and since both kids had difficulty in punctuation, we started with that season---the third. They had had helping verbs, nouns, etc, year after year in ps, but both needed punctuation help. After they completed that season, we started at lesson one, page one and just worked our way forward. The ages of my kids when they began using it were newly 12 and almost 14. Both kids have been doing great with AG and both have a great understanding of grammar usage. You had made an earlier comment about scoring well on standardized tests without a solid grammar background/diagramming. I was one of those kids.... until doing AG with my kids, I had never diagrammed before. I went all through school and university without ever diagramming a single sentence. My knowledge of grammar was intuitive, so while I couldn't answer a question like 'what word in the sentence is the predicate nominative?', I *could* write essays that would blow my teachers out of the water and earn high grades. Maybe your daughter is like this, too. Whichever program you chose, rest assured that it is not a lost cause, and grammar/diagramming is easy to catch up on. The fact that she scores well already means she knows how things should 'sound', so she is off to a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choirfarm Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I'm not surprised about the diagramming. I didn't teach it when I taught honors classes. We did very little grammar and assumed it had been taught in junior high or freshman year. I had my 9th grader do Analytical Grammar this year. IT IS GREAT!!! I never, ever learned some of that diagramming. We never diagrammed in college either. It is perfect for his analytical mind. It is step by step. He taught himself. Now, it didn't work for my 7th grader. IT was was too hard, but I think I should have "taught" it to him. He would have done better if I had taught the concept on a white board and gone through several sentences a day, I think. Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 My son was the exact.same.way. I pulled him out in 3rd grade and he was a straight A student. His teachers were wanting him tested for "gifted" classes. I got him home and, as a 5th grader, he is working through 4th grade R&S spelling, reading, and English. He also has had to a do a remedial phonics program because he was not taught to read (in ps) using phonics. It is CRAZY and was totally unexpected. We have really had to work hard to get him to where he is now. Finally, though, there has been great progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsacco Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 When I pulled DS out in 5th he couldn't tell me what a NOUN was!! I was in shock.... I had to take him back to 3rd grade stuff to get him caught up. It was a VERY delicate road to walk since one of the reasons we pulled him was because he was constantly calling himself "stupid" (he did "genius" level on the state standardized testing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 I also recommend Analytical Grammar. You had made an earlier comment about scoring well on standardized tests without a solid grammar background/diagramming. I was one of those kids.... until doing AG with my kids, I had never diagrammed before. I went all through school and university without ever diagramming a single sentence. My knowledge of grammar was intuitive, so while I couldn't answer a question like 'what word in the sentence is the predicate nominative?', I *could* write essays that would blow my teachers out of the water and earn high grades. Maybe your daughter is like this, too. :lol: It is funny how much we learn while studying to teach our kids :lol: If only people would listen to us when we say hs benefits everyone.:D Thank you for telling me about your experience. I feel much better after speaking to everyone. This is a lovely group of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 I'm not surprised about the diagramming. I didn't teach it when I taught honors classes. We did very little grammar and assumed it had been taught in junior high or freshman year. I had my 9th grader do Analytical Grammar this year. IT IS GREAT!!! I never, ever learned some of that diagramming. We never diagrammed in college either. It is perfect for his analytical mind. It is step by step. He taught himself. Now, it didn't work for my 7th grader. IT was was too hard, but I think I should have "taught" it to him. He would have done better if I had taught the concept on a white board and gone through several sentences a day, I think. Christine Thanks:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 My son was the exact.same.way. I pulled him out in 3rd grade and he was a straight A student. His teachers were wanting him tested for "gifted" classes. I got him home and, as a 5th grader, he is working through 4th grade R&S spelling, reading, and English. He also has had to a do a remedial phonics program because he was not taught to read (in ps) using phonics. It is CRAZY and was totally unexpected. We have really had to work hard to get him to where he is now. Finally, though, there has been great progress! I'm glad to hear about the light at the end of the tunnel. It shocks you when you think they are doing so well, .... not:glare: Just be glad you caught it early.;) It sounds like he will be right on target soon. Makes for a happy Mom.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 When I pulled DS out in 5th he couldn't tell me what a NOUN was!! I was in shock.... I had to take him back to 3rd grade stuff to get him caught up. It was a VERY delicate road to walk since one of the reasons we pulled him was because he was constantly calling himself "stupid" (he did "genius" level on the state standardized testing) Wow! You must be so proud. :001_smile: Has his self-confidence gotten better? It breaks your heart when they say they are "stupid".:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 (edited) If she's been in honors classes something like Grammar Voyage by MCT might get her caught up pretty quickly, it covers all your bases. Or even Grammar Town would work. It also makes the delicate walk a little easier since it is used at such varying levels and doesn't have a "grade" to it. Best of luck, it's better to find out now. :tongue_smilie: You could always do the Practice books that go with it as well. Edited February 21, 2010 by melmichigan added another thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I would use MCT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSHS Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Very. How can you write a research paper or a good essay without proper sentence structure? I never realized there was a problem because her standard test scores were so high in PS.:glare: She is very good with looking at the example and getting every question right. I don't want her to just feed it back to me. I want her to know why. Are you sure she doesn't understand grammar? If she's getting every question right then she has a good grasp of it. It may just be the terminology she doesn't know. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsacco Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Has his self-confidence gotten better? It has gotten better - sometimes - thanks for asking ;) The problem is that if he doesn't get it right away he doesn't think he's smart. It's annoying but we are working on it! He is now doing well at "seeing" grammar with the diagramming - and I think it's helping a lot to figure out just what part of speech it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 It has gotten better - sometimes - thanks for asking ;) The problem is that if he doesn't get it right away he doesn't think he's smart. It's annoying but we are working on it! He is now doing well at "seeing" grammar with the diagramming - and I think it's helping a lot to figure out just what part of speech it is. I'm glad to hear that. Diagramming did that for me. I still remember how to diagram. I can't believe that are not still doing it. They have even stopped teaching handwriting here. They send home worksheets for the parents to help them with at night, but don't really do it in school anymore.:glare: I wish I had taken my kids out sooner. My husband was not very open to the idea. I did it anyway;) Now he's glad I did. He's not very involved, but he is positive about it. His family...not so much:tongue_smilie:My parents are supportive of my choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Since your DD is learning grammar for the first time at her age, she will probably pick it up really quickly. I learned all that I ever knew about grammar in a few weeks in either 7th or 8th grade...the 8 parts of speech, diagramming, the main uses of nouns, diffferent kinds of verbs, plenty to start learning a foreign language easily in 9th grade. Now, in life and especially in homeschooling, I have learned a lot more grammar; but those basics really went fast, and they served me very well for quite a while. I've done a lot of technical and publication writing over the years, and my reading of good writing was actually more helpful than the grammar instruction in doing that. Grammar has been a great tiebreaker and a wonderful tool to help coach DD with her writing, and she is being taught more of it earlier than I was, but I'll bet your DD will catch up in about 2 months if you really get on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rose_king Posted February 21, 2010 Author Share Posted February 21, 2010 Grammar has been a great tiebreaker and a wonderful tool to help coach DD with her writing, and she is being taught more of it earlier than I was, but I'll bet your DD will catch up in about 2 months if you really get on it. Thank you for that. It makes me feel much better about the situation.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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