Has anyone been successful using Singapore with NON-mathy dc? (nature v. nurture)

[HappyGrace]

I am looking into either Singapore or MM to remediate dd10, 4th grade. I'm leaning toward MM because when I look at how "hard" Singapore is, I think it would basically just be frustrating, even if we moved back a few levels. I want her to be able to grasp math better so she enjoys it more, but somehow I wonder if some dc inherently can't think mathematically as well, and a "mathy" program would just frustrate them. (In the big picture, I wonder how the how nature vs. nurture thing applies with math? :))

 

Has anyone been able to help their non-mathy child by using Singapore? Or conversely, has anyone tried, and it was a bust?

[abbeyej]

I'm sort of off on a tangent here... I've been frustrated lately with my non-mathy dd. Ds found math came so naturally, and it was so easy to present the conceptual stuff. Math is just so much harder for dd (so far at least -- I do think that sometimes these things change as children mature, and I don't want to think of her as "struggling with math" five or ten years from now if she has long since outgrown that struggle)...

 

But one thing that really *did* strike me? Because math could be *fun* with ds, we had no problem spending a lot of time on it. Lots and lots.

 

So I took a kid who already got math fairly intuitively, and we practiced and practiced and I threw interesting challenges at him and...

 

Now I've got dd, and math is so much tougher for her that we just want to get through the lesson and move on. Do something else. Anything!

 

I started counting and realized that she probably spends a third of the time each day on math that ds did at her age.

 

So I'm taking a child for whom math is a struggle, and giving her only a third as much practice time! What am I thinking?!? Yes, the amount of time she spends on math is probably "plenty" for her age, according to many people who post here. But I simply don't think that's true. I'm really very *glad* for all of the time ds and I spent on mathematics when he was in elementary school. It was great for him. So why am I cheating my dd, who so clearly needs more time and focus on this than he ever did?!?

 

Anyway, so I guess I'm just weighing in a bit on the nature vs nurture aspect. Yep, they each come to us with a different nature. And some of them will find this or that subject harder or easier or more delightful... But it's still up to us to challenge and remediate and just plain give them the *time* that they need to grasp and grow...

 

I'm not planning to drop Singapore or Horizons with my dd. We may bring in different supplements than I did with ds. While he got more out of the most challenging sorts of supplements, dd and I are spending more time with manipulatives and practice seeing abstract concepts in her head, etc. If we need to slow down in our progress through Singapore and/or Horizons, so be it -- I still think the conceptual work in Singapore will be good for her, and the regular practice and review of topics in Horizons will balance that -- but I'm also not going to call it a day after 20-30 minutes of math any more.

 

I really don't think which math program we choose is all *that* important. It comes down to the teacher. Am I presenting things well? Am I helping my kids to see a variety of approaches? Am I making sure they really understand? Am I helping them to see ways to manipulate numbers in their heads?

 

And am I giving them adequate practice?

 

I think Singapore is very strong in certain areas, and I think even dd can benefit from their approach. But how I handle the material along the way may have to change.

[Closeacademy]

I use Singapore with my non-mathy child but we also work in Rod and Staff math every day as well.:001_smile:

[Jen500]

I really don't think which math program we choose is all *that* important. It comes down to the teacher. Am I presenting things well? Am I helping my kids to see a variety of approaches? Am I making sure they really understand? Am I helping them to see ways to manipulate numbers in their heads?

 

And am I giving them adequate practice?

 

:iagree:

[Ummto4]

It all comes down to teaching and maturity.

 

If you know you teach your kid really well and your kid still doesn't get it, then may be it's something to do w/ maturity.

 

When I taught my ds during first grade, we're stumbled many times. Even with Math Mammoth. What I learned to do is to leave that particular chapter for one month and revisit later. Now that my ds is second grade, we don't stumble that much, but we still have that stumbling block sometimes.

 

For instance, my ds still cannot grasp the concept ".... mins till 7 o'clock". So I just leave it for now, and at the moment, we're doing other chapter of Math Mammoth. May be we're going to revisit that concept in a month.

 

It usually works that way with us.

 

HTH,

[JessMcG]

:bigear:

[mamato3 all-boy boys]

Yes, I am using SM with my non-mathy 5th grader.....

 

I agree with closeacademy. I believe that it is a very thorough math program. It progresses from concrete to abstract -- something a non-mathy kids would want. It provides strategies for address math concepts in several ways --- again, something a non-mathy kid would want.

 

I think SM gets a bad rap sometimes. It is deceptively simple -- just two thin books. But there is far more there than meets the idea for a teacher, homeschool or otherwise.

[hmschooling]

I agree that teaching and presentation are key, but I also think program is important. I was using SM with DD and she isn't very mathy. I'm now using MM. It's so similar to SM, yet the way it's presented helps me teach it in a way that she gets it. She is ENJOYING math now! She says MM is HER kind of math. :001_smile: She was doing okay in Singapore, but we just weren't ready for 3A after finishing 2B, so I thought I'd just fill in with MM. Turns out it's an awesome program and I plan to use it with my boys as well when they reach 1st grade and beyond. DD will be sticking with MM now too.

 

Take the placement test, then email the author and ask her to help with placement. She will help you fill any gaps and then place in the right grade level set.

[siloam]

I am looking into either Singapore or MM to remediate dd10, 4th grade. I'm leaning toward MM because when I look at how "hard" Singapore is, I think it would basically just be frustrating, even if we moved back a few levels. I want her to be able to grasp math better so she enjoys it more, but somehow I wonder if some dc inherently can't think mathematically as well, and a "mathy" program would just frustrate them. (In the big picture, I wonder how the how nature vs. nurture thing applies with math? :))

 

Has anyone been able to help their non-mathy child by using Singapore? Or conversely, has anyone tried, and it was a bust?

 

It works here, but we also do RS. I do wonder if Singapore would have worked on its own if we had used the manipulatives with the HIG extra's (when I started the lower level HIG's weren't out, so it wasn't really an option) and the extra practice books.

 

Heather

 

[Dinsfamily]

I'm sort of off on a tangent here... I've been frustrated lately with my non-mathy dd. Ds found math came so naturally, and it was so easy to present the conceptual stuff. Math is just so much harder for dd (so far at least -- I do think that sometimes these things change as children mature, and I don't want to think of her as "struggling with math" five or ten years from now if she has long since outgrown that struggle)...

 

But one thing that really *did* strike me? Because math could be *fun* with ds, we had no problem spending a lot of time on it. Lots and lots.

 

So I took a kid who already got math fairly intuitively, and we practiced and practiced and I threw interesting challenges at him and...

 

Now I've got dd, and math is so much tougher for her that we just want to get through the lesson and move on. Do something else. Anything!

 

I started counting and realized that she probably spends a third of the time each day on math that ds did at her age.

 

So I'm taking a child for whom math is a struggle, and giving her only a third as much practice time! What am I thinking?!? Yes, the amount of time she spends on math is probably "plenty" for her age, according to many people who post here. But I simply don't think that's true. I'm really very *glad* for all of the time ds and I spent on mathematics when he was in elementary school. It was great for him. So why am I cheating my dd, who so clearly needs more time and focus on this than he ever did?!?

 

Anyway, so I guess I'm just weighing in a bit on the nature vs nurture aspect. Yep, they each come to us with a different nature. And some of them will find this or that subject harder or easier or more delightful... But it's still up to us to challenge and remediate and just plain give them the *time* that they need to grasp and grow...

 

I'm not planning to drop Singapore or Horizons with my dd. We may bring in different supplements than I did with ds. While he got more out of the most challenging sorts of supplements, dd and I are spending more time with manipulatives and practice seeing abstract concepts in her head, etc. If we need to slow down in our progress through Singapore and/or Horizons, so be it -- I still think the conceptual work in Singapore will be good for her, and the regular practice and review of topics in Horizons will balance that -- but I'm also not going to call it a day after 20-30 minutes of math any more.

 

I really don't think which math program we choose is all *that* important. It comes down to the teacher. Am I presenting things well? Am I helping my kids to see a variety of approaches? Am I making sure they really understand? Am I helping them to see ways to manipulate numbers in their heads?

 

And am I giving them adequate practice?

 

I think Singapore is very strong in certain areas, and I think even dd can benefit from their approach. But how I handle the material along the way may have to change.

 

Great post, Abbeyej. I've been chewing this train of though for a little while too. My very mathy ds does SO much math. We just added a 3rd program (Miquon) to the schedule and he still does his "for fun" supplements in his spare time. I often think it's funny that he gets so much practice for concepts he just "gets." However, he loves it and wants to do all of it. It's his school candy. I'd assumed that I wouldn't do so much with my less mathy dc as they come up, but that just doesn't make sense to me. I just created a math progression and came to the same conclusion that you've come to...the same programs, but at a slower pace if needed. We probably won't get as far in the progression or do the extraneous supplements, but I'm hoping what they learn they will learn well.

 

Now the question that seems pressing is: does SM take too many conceptual leaps for a non-mathy dc? Would using EP help with that? We're just finishing 1B so I haven't seen any of those leaps yet.

[Corraleno]

I tried Singapore with my nonmathy DS and there were 2 problems: not enough practice & review, and too many conceptual jumps without step-by-step explanation. (The third problem was that I found it really annoying to be constantly switching around between textbook, workbook, & HIG.)

 

Math Mammoth teaches math in the same way as Singapore, but in a more gradual step-by-step way, with extra review and practice built in. You really don't lose anything by switching to MM ~ it's still very conceptual, emphasizes mental math, includes challenging word problems, uses bar diagrams to solve them, etc. ~ it's just (IMO) designed in a much more efficient and user-friendly way. Her explanations are very clear, and very well illustrated. My son not only "gets" math for the first time ever (he was in remedial math when I pulled him out of PS), he gets it at the conceptual level and thinks algebra is fun!

 

I think SM works best for mathy kids who can handle some conceptual leaps and don't need a lot of practice or review. MM can take nomathy kids and make them think like mathy kids, because she explains the concepts so clearly and walks students through them step by step.

 

Jackie

[TracyP]

We're just finishing 1B so I haven't seen any of those leaps yet.

 

I just had to smile. My non mathy dd has spent the past month (at least) going over "making tens". I think the info in even 1a and 1b makes leaps that are hard for some kids to get. I *think* she got it on Thursday (YEAH!) but it has been slow going and I don't know how moving into subtraction with numbers to 20 will go. I really want to stick with it though so we are going to continue slowly and use CLE to supplement. I think their drill and incremental approach will be a nice balance.

 

So to OP question - I think SM can work but... um.... I'll have to get back to you in a few years.:001_smile:

 

BTW I am loving these interesting SM threads.

[Dinsfamily]

I just had to smile. My non mathy dd has spent the past month (at least) going over "making tens". I think the info in even 1a and 1b makes leaps that are hard for some kids to get. I *think* she got it on Thursday (YEAH!) but it has been slow going and I don't know how moving into subtraction with numbers to 20 will go. I really want to stick with it though so we are going to continue slowly and use CLE to supplement. I think their drill and incremental approach will be a nice balance.

 

So to OP question - I think SM can work but... um.... I'll have to get back to you in a few years.:001_smile:

 

BTW I am loving these interesting SM threads.

 

I guess the definition of conceptual leaps depends on the child, huh? I can see how subtraction with regrouping could be a leap. Do you use EP or something else to help her practice/reinforce those concepts?

[TracyP]

Do you use EP or something else to help her practice/reinforce those concepts?

 

No, but I did look at it. I think it is only $8 so I considered it. I wish they had more sample pages. I couldn't decide if it would be worth it. I honestly have been very confused since the holidays. I have gone back and forth between ditching SM and sticking with it so many times. Since I am recommitted to using SM I should really look into these again. Have you used or seen the EP books?

[Dinsfamily]

No, but I did look at it. I think it is only $8 so I considered it. I wish they had more sample pages. I couldn't decide if it would be worth it. I honestly have been very confused since the holidays. I have gone back and forth between ditching SM and sticking with it so many times. Since I am recommitted to using SM I should really look into these again. Have you used or seen the EP books?

 

I haven't really looked at them because I'm only working with my very mathy ds right now and he doesn't need them. Just wondering for future dc (if we even have a non-mathy one)... I was thinking that they might be the answer to using Singapore with a non-mathy kid.

[Jen500]

I tried Singapore with my nonmathy DS and there were 2 problems: not enough practice & review, and too many conceptual jumps without step-by-step explanation. (The third problem was that I found it really annoying to be constantly switching around between textbook, workbook, & HIG.)

 

I just wanted to comment that we've used Singapore from 2A-5B and haven't found any conceptual jumps. I think everything is clearly explained and illustrated with pictures. Extra practice should be added as needed--I've read that in Singapore, they do practice outside of the class. I do agree that there is not a lot of review--good for some kids and not so good for others.

I don't really switch constantly between the HIG, text, and wb. :confused: I read the HIG the night before (10 min or so) and then we do the lesson from the text, then the dc move on to the workbook.

Not trying to negate your experience, Jackie, just wanted to add our experience w/SM.

[AudreyTN]

My dd9 is completely NOT a math person. I am a math person so it took a lot for me to understand WHY she couldn't understand.

 

We have been through many a math program and I keep going back to Singapore because I LOVE it! I see the beauty behind it and it's what I wanted before I even knew it existed.

 

I was about ready to give up Singapore with her... thinking that it just wasn't clicking. THEN I decided to fully implement the HIG. OH MY what a difference it has made! My non-mathy child is begging to do more math each day. We also use the Extra Practice. In the STE EP book there are short explanations written out to the child and she LOVES those. She said that it really helps her understand a little better.

 

My ds8 is just like me. Math and Science are his thing. We don't use the HIG. I barely teach the boy. I open the text and he says, "Oh I get it." Before I have a chance to teach him anything.

[ElizabethB]

I'm using it with my non-mathy daughter and it's making her a bit more mathy!

 

A few things, I've had to do extra practice with, making up my own problems and/or re-using the same problems from the book written out a few days later--since she didn't get it the first time, she didn't even notice that they were the exact same problems.

 

We also supplement with flashmaster and RS math games for fact practice.

[HappyGrace]

I've enjoyed reading thru these responses. It's funny, because even before I read Abbeyej's post, I was driving in the car thinking, wow, maybe we need a "Math-Centered Curriculum" in our house (with apologies to PlaidDad!)

 

Because in order to get dd to do math and truly *own* it, I would need to spend a LOT of time on it. The last few yrs we were VERY humanities-centered in our homeschool, because that's what we love. And where did it get us? Yes, we enjoyed it, yes, we learned a lot, but it's a content area-you can pick all that up at any point in life. Meanwhile, dd has fallen more and more behind in math. Like Abbeyej said, we avoided it because she (and I) didn't like it. Yet I spend lots of time on math with younger ds, because he gets it, and enjoys it, and it's not a fight for me.

 

I feel like we're at a crossroads where I need to go with standard math and let that be adequate or try to really dig in with her and commit to a mix of programs that will give her true understanding. I know it would be a huge fight and major time commitment to get her over the hump and enjoying math! We would literally have to (at least for awhile) make math the centerpiece of our schooling. And I guess I just don't want to do that if she will just never be "mathy"!

 

My mind is so fried-this has been at the forefront of my brain for weeks, trying to figure it all out! I may be best off picking a more middle road for her-CLE and Math Mammoth. After extensively researching, I do see Singapore as being quite a bit more rigorous than MM (which is not always a strength-I think it may be a weakness of the program for certain kids like my dd.) So maybe with *this* dc I don't need to beat her up with Singapore-maybe the CLE (for spiral she needs) and MM (for mental math I want her to have) would be a better fit! And then for the long run with younger ds, I can do CLE (for the spiral I want)/Singapore (for the stretching he needs). I feel like CLE "covers my bases" with traditional/spiral for both dc, and then Sing or MM can give them each the kind of mental math to fit their different learning styles.

 

I'm still going to consider "trying" Singapore with her, and see if the explanations in the HIG work for her. If it is frustrating her too much, I'll be fine with backing off and going with MM instead (with the CLE, of course).

 

Siloam-I'm with you-I think if I had used Singapore with the HIGs with dd from the start I think we'd be ok right now (rather than using RS back then, or actually in addition, because I did like RS A and part of B til we hit that conceptual wall!)

[Dinsfamily]

HappyGrace,

 

What about seeing if she'd like Miquon to play around with? We just started Orange, so I don't know how it progresses (maybe someone else with xp can chime in). I actually bought it for my mathy ds to enjoy exploring math like he did before we started formal curriculum. However, maybe it would be a fun, painless way for her to brush up on her skills even if you just used it during curriclum breaks (summer?). Just another thought to add to your already fried brain. ;)

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Dins-my already fried brain thanks you too! We have and use and love Miquon with younger ds. I never thought to try it with her but she won't even use the RS abacus anymore-too "babyish"-it's so hard for me because I KNOW it would help her! :tongue_smilie:

[Jenny in Atl]

I would not call either of my girls "mathy".. and both have done well with Singapore. I've really liked how easy it's been to add other resources to our work when needed.

[siloam]

Thanks, Dins-my already fried brain thanks you too! We have and use and love Miquon with younger ds. I never thought to try it with her but she won't even use the RS abacus anymore-too "babyish"-it's so hard for me because I KNOW it would help her! :tongue_smilie:

What is she struggling with?

 

My oldest was half way through 3rd grade when I started her on Right Start. She did two lessons a day all the way till level E, and now she is doing E at normal pace.

 

Don't be afraid to go backwards, if you really think that is what is needed. I have never regretted it. Ok I do wish she were farther along, but knowing she has the foundation she has is much better than having gaps you are always fighting. That will slow you down the rest of the way through upper level math.

 

I also just about a year ago figured out we should be doing the IP books if I want to have my kiddos so the upper level Singapore Math, so they get used to problems that make them think. I had to go back a few levels because I had dropped it.

 

We aren't winning any races here, but the hope is to build a comfort level and fluency in math that benefits them for the rest of their lives. The hardest part is that I won't really know if it has worked or not for years. :eek:

 

Heather

[squirtymomma]

I haven't read all of the replies, and this doesn't directly answer the question, but... I was a math major and went back to school after a few years working in computer engineering to get my secondary teaching certification in math/science education in a fairly progressive teacher training program. We took classes on the concepts beneath elementary math and algebra... the stuff that most teachers don't even understand. We learned about the history of math... how different concepts were developed. We learned about different theories of learning, and we were encouraged to challenge the way things have been done traditionally. I believe that many many more people could succeed in math if they were properly taught. It's interesting that studies have been done that have shown that kids in the US think that they're either innately good at math or their not. Kids in other countries belive if they work hard at math, they'll be good at it. Something about the way math has been taught in the US has obviously left a lot of kids out. Only those for whom it comes very naturally succeed, which means there's very little actual *teaching* going on. Math did not necessarily come naturally to me. I'm sure I'm smarter than average, but I did have to work to understand math. I happen to have a very tenacious questioning nature. I always asked "why". Many teachers didn't have answers for me, and would get quite annoyed with me. However, I was blessed to have a few teachers, and a couple in particular, who loved helping me wrestle through. I haven't read the Liping Ma book, but it sounds like she (he?)'s getting at the issue. I do think math concepts must be taught, and many times in different ways for it to click in a kid's brain. That requires a certain amount of ease with the material as a teacher. I don't think that means you handicap them with having to make dot drawings every time they do an arithmetic problem, or whatever else the "new math" curricula are faulted with.

 

Another anecdote: My mom was the lower school head of a classical/CM school in Dallas. They used Saxon, and the kids consistently did badly on problem solving on whatever standardized test they took. The summer my mom left, she got them switched to Singapore. So, they're using it for the entire school (K-4), and this is not a super selective school either. The teachers were trained in the Singapore method. They use the teacher guides. They do extra practice and drill. It's been 1.5 years now, and I don't know if they've seen better results. But, if schools are able to be successful with Singapore, I'm guessing it should work for most kids.

 

I'm new to my homeschooling journey, and I've just recently received Singapore Earlybird. Upon first glance, it looks like any K workbook you could find at Walmart. But, there's a lot of very deliberate work in there that is building conceptual understanding. Even though I'm very mathy, yes I will use the HIG! You can't compare Singapore to another program unless you use *the program*, and just assigning problems out of their book isn't going to work much magic (I'm not addressing this to anyone in particular... like I said I haven't even read this thread, I've just seen people ask about this a lot).

 

I haven't looked too closely at other math curricula. I'm not saying Singapore is the only way. I think it is very good, and if used as intended, can probably teach most kids math. Learning math does require practice. I don't buy into the "only do 5 problems a day" mentality. Maybe a handful of kids can get by with that until they come across something they actually have to *learn*. I just think it would be helpful if we could get away from the mentality that some people "do" math and others don't. *Most* adults, when I tell them I was a math major, say, "Oh, I was terrible at math". That's ridiculous. Math needs to be taught, just like any other subject, and most kids can learn it.

Edited February 7, 2010 by squirtymomma

[HappyGrace]

Heather-she isn't solid on multiplication facts-at ALL. Over the last month I have finally gotten her more solid on addition/subtraction facts by constant games of War and RS games-and I was able to teach her by "making tens" etc. But multi facts-I just get a blank stare. This is a dc that is practically gifted in all other subjects, can memorize six stanza poems rapidly, etc., so it's not a learning or memorization issue.

 

She can do CLE by algorithm, but if you ask her to figure out the same thing in the grocery store that she did that morning-can't do it. No application. And she doesn't WANT to learn it, so we're dealing with that stumbling block too. We have seen lots of lightbulbs clicking on the past couple wks using MM, so I'm encouraged about that. We did RS A/B/C-during B went backwards and added in CLE 1 and continued that from there. With MM, I went back to level 2 and we should be able to cover the "mental math" in that that she is missing pretty quickly. I actually have her doing some of Singapore IP 1B too-the challenge problems, etc., to get her clicking on thinking through the math and really "getting" it-so yes, I'm fine with going backwards! If I add in some Singapore, which after this thread I probably will, I'd go back to 2 and do the areas I feel she is weak so she can build a solid base.

 

Squirtymomma-as you can see above, I'm trying to be that kind of math teacher! I solidly agree with your thoughtful post, and it's making me think that maybe *I* need to stop buying into it that she is weak in math, and just teach it like she is NOT! Again, we'd have to go with a "Math Centered Curriculum" here for awhile to have the time to shore up the weak areas, etc. I'm starting to be ok with that! (And I completely agree that the HIGs are vital to Singapore!)

[Lori D.]

We used Singapore as a supplement to Math-U-See with our math struggler. He would finish the MUS before the end of the school year, and so I would take the Singapore level below his grade level, and we would skim/review. I had the old teacher guides from older DS, so we would go over 1-3 lessons, and then I would have him do selected problems from the practice pages in the teacher guide. Singapore was not easy or natural for him, BUT, because we were using a level that was below his currently learning level, it was mostly review which allowed him to really absorb and learn the problem-solving techniques and word problem practice. He got quite good by the time he finished Singapore 6A/B (same year he finished MUS pre-algebra).

 

Using Singapore as supplement/review was *extremely* beneficial for this student, as it helped cement math topics through review, but it especially helped him learn how to problem solve and begin to make math connections. Singapore 3A/B is a great level to start with for supplementing, as that is where the word problem solving technique is introduced -- of drawing little bars to represent what you know from the word problem to help you see how to get to figure out to get to the answer they are asking for.

 

BEST of luck with your non-mathy student -- have patience and persevere, as they DO get it eventually, just in their own timing. :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Lori D.
added info