Books about Christian mythology for non-Christians?

[WishboneDawn]

deeply held truths as "myths".

 

 

The irony is of course is that most of those defending the use of "mythology" have explained several times that, "deeply held truths," IS a valid definition of mythology.

[WishboneDawn]

What you believe and teach your children is up to you, but this is an open forum, and the title of this post is extremely offensive and inflammatory. No one comes on here asking for books on Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist, etc, "myths" either that I can think of. Had you asked for Bible stories from a nonChristian perspective that would have been a great deal wiser since not everyone has to believe a story is true, but the term doesn't carry any negative connotations.

 

I am rarely truly offended on this forum because I respect the beliefs of others and try to be courteous even when I vehemently disagree with someone, but this was offensive. I hope that not only is this thread closed, but that it is removed, and I rarely hope that, too.

 

There are threads here quite often where Christianity (one just a few days ago on how Christians might handle mythology) is taken as the "truth'. The implication of course is that everything else isn't. Often enough that's not even an implication.

[IsabelC]

Well, this might get lost, but..

 

You might want to check out The Bible And It's Influence. Along with detailed discussion of the books of the Bible from beginning to end, it explains how these works influenced culture, art, politics, etc. I have to add that I have not held it in my hands yet, but I have heard good things about it from people I like. It appears to be a beautiful book as well.

Best wishes! :)

 

Edited to add: I think this book is meant to be a high school text, but from samples I believe my younger kids could benefit (especially if I read aloud and discussed). Not the same level as D'Aulaires, sorry!

Thanks for that suggestion. It's going on my wishlist too.

[stripe]

!

 

Well, I don't have much to say, except that I think this is a GREAT topic for discussion -- informative books about religions that are not designed to convert people or written only for those already "in the know," useful for interfaith educational endeavors.

 

I don't have a copy of WTM in front of me, but I distinctly remember it containing chapters about teaching one's child religion, and (as I recall) other world religions, so I can't see why it would be deemed any more irrelevant than any other topic discussed in WTM and taught at home, which are not always strictly academic (e.g. career guidance, health including sex ed which often includes an advice component, and fitness/PE activities).

 

I'm just sorry it's been such a difficult discussion.

[stripe]

Mythology doesn't mean "fiction". Libraries keep their Mythology books in the "non-fiction" section, which you ought to know being a librarian.

And it's an interesting point about library organizational schemes...One observes very clear biases (for example, in the Library of Congress classification system, world history is "D" whereas American history is contained under both "E" and "F"; military science is under "U" and naval science is under "V"; and library science gets all of "Z"), but at the same time, because there are an infinite number of numbers contained between any two numbers, one cannot exactly say "off-beat" topics are limited. Still, it is worth observing the breakdown for the 200 Dewey section:

 

200 Religion

201 Philosophy of Christianity

202 Miscellany of Christianity

203 Dictionaries of Christianity

204 Special topics

205 Serial publications of Christianity

206 Organizations of Christianity

207 Education, research in Christianity

208 Kinds of persons in Christianity

209 History & geography of Christianity

210 Natural theology

211 Concepts of God

212 Existence, attributes of God

213 Creation

214 Theodicy

215 Science & religion

216 Good & evil

217 Not assigned or no longer used

218 Humankind

219 Not assigned or no longer used

220 Bible

221 Old Testament

222 Historical books of Old Testament

223 Poetic books of Old Testament

224 Prophetic books of Old Testament

225 New Testament

226 Gospels & Acts

227 Epistles

228 Revelation (Apocalypse)

229 Apocrypha & pseudepigrapha

230 Christian theology

231 God

232 Jesus Christ & his family

233 Humankind

234 Salvation (Soteriology) & grace

235 Spiritual beings

236 Eschatology

237 Not assigned or no longer used

238 Creeds & catechisms

239 Apologetics & polemics

240 Christian moral & devotional theology

241 Moral theology

242 Devotional literature

243 Evangelistic writings for individuals

244 Not assigned or no longer used

245 Texts of hymns

246 Use of art in Christianity

247 Church furnishings & articles

248 Christian experience, practice, life

249 Christian observances in family life

250 Christian orders & local church

251 Preaching (Homiletics)

252 Texts of sermons

253 Pastoral office (Pastoral theology)

254 Parish government & administration

255 Religious congregations & orders

256 Not assigned or no longer used

257 Not assigned or no longer used

258 Not assigned or no longer used

259 Activities of the local church

260 Christian social theology

261 Social theology

262 Ecclesiology

263 Times, places of religious observance

264 Public worship

265 Sacraments, other rites & acts

266 Missions

267 Associations for religious work

268 Religious education

269 Spiritual renewal

270 Christian church history

271 Religious orders in church history

272 Persecutions in church history

273 Heresies in church history

274 Christian church in Europe

275 Christian church in Asia

276 Christian church in Africa

277 Christian church in North America

278 Christian church in South America

279 Christian church in other areas

280 Christian denominations & sects

281 Early church & Eastern churches

282 Roman Catholic Church

283 Anglican churches

284 Protestants of Continental origin

285 Presbyterian, Reformed, Congregational

286 Baptist, Disciples of Christ, Adventist

287 Methodist & related churches

288 Not assigned or no longer used

289 Other denominations & sects

290 Other & comparative religions

291 Comparative religion

292 Classical (Greek & Roman) religion

293 Germanic religion

294 Religions of Indic origin

295 Zoroastrianism (Mazdaism, Parseeism)

296 Judaism

297 Islam & religions originating in it

298 Not assigned or no longer used

299 Other religions

[MelanieM]

I have edited the first post to include quotes from each post in the thread that made a recommendation. (I hope I didn't miss anyone. If I did, please let me know and I'll edit again.) I hope it's helpful to newcomers with the same question, or to those that have been reading along but didn't take notes!

 

Thank you all for the great ideas!

[KarenNC]

That is such a great question! I'm not sure. Basically, I want to expand our literacy on the subject of Christianity. I would certainly love to hear of anything you would like to suggest.

 

The saints' lives kind of books in particular can be interesting, but be sure to preread. They can be very graphic and disturbing.

 

We recently came across an absolutely gorgeous picture book at the library's children's section by Ruth Sanderson called "Saints: Lives and Illuminations." Do note it is very definitely from the Christian viewpoint in the line of how wonderful that such and such a saint suffered horrible torture (which is described) at the hands of the evil pagans, called down destruction on pagan temples and idols and their worshipers or were able to deceive their pagan families who hated Christians in order to secretly become Christians and only then do good works, etc. Now this is probably not at all surprising from a book on saints' lives, particularly if you come to it from, say, a Roman Catholic background where this is considered daily fare even for small children. From a non-Christian or even a Protestant Christian background in which saints did not figure, it can be quite unexpected, particularly in a children's book.

 

Honestly, it's not something I'm planning on just handing my elementary- aged Neopagan child to read, but it may well come in useful (in an edited, discussed version) when we get to the logic level medieval studies to give her a perspective on the role of the saints in the Roman Catholic faith of the time and the worldview of the time from which these folks came. It's something I could see using to show pictures, and give bits of info from perhaps for a younger child (at the moment, we are past medieval, so I probably won't use it until later, it just caught my eye). You could definitely use it in terms of art history to explain why the various symbols are in the pictures to tell the story to people who could not read, as they were and are in many paintings, stained glass in churches, etc. The illustrations are lush and beautiful, it's the text that can be problematic in some of the instances.

[lionfamily1999]

Ah. Well, I was just being silly. I would never put a 'kick me' sign on your back, no worries. And I've never said "nanny nanny boo boo" out loud in my life, actually. I might want to try it, though.

 

 

Why is it ok for other religions, but not for Christianity? That's the only question I have, really. Perhaps you can help me better understand the issue here.

To the first... I was attempting to joke too, as well as that went ;) I still wouldn't trust you with the kick-me sign... you already threatened to taunt me with "mythology" (and that idea did turn my stomach, the idea of a parent and child mocking someone together..... ).

 

To the second... I think it was specifiying Christian "mythology," rather than saying something like modern day religious mythology. Christianity's "mythology" was singled out by your thread title. I was sort of surprised by the other poster, non-Christian, but of another modern religion, that chimed in with their own offence at the wording. Of course, too many people are enjoying this "debate" too much to let it stop now! I was bothered by the wording, but there's no (imo) point in chicken littling the whole thing. I mean if you (or anyone else beating people over the head with the definition of a myth) cared, this wouldn't have even gotten rolling in the first place.

[Saille]

So, the offense is not at the belief. It is at the language that was used in a forum that includes, which can be understood after being on this board for any length of time, some Christians who would be offended with the terms Mythology and Christian being strung together in a post title.

 

selmck, some people (not referring to you here) are going to be offended no matter what you do. That does not necessarily mean you should alter your behavior. There was a thread posted this week called "mythology vs. christianity", in which the sacred stories of other people on this board were classed as mythology, and Christianity was not. Everyone coped. EVERYONE COPED. There are multiple threads discussing a myriad of religious beliefs using the word mythology. There's actually a precedent on this board for the (scholarly) wording Melanie used.

 

Despite all of this, twenty pages later we are still discussing how badly the OP upset a few select Christians.

 

People are welcome to believe that their feelings/religion are more important or true than others'. It might turn those folks' stomachs to hear them referred to as anything but. But I don't have to agree, and I certainly don't have to tailor my behavior to meet their expectations.

 

Bill has been SO patient, and SO courteous. Melanie has explained and explained and explained. Folks actually had to start a new thread just to continue the OP's topic. And it is very clear at this point that the complainants are not necessarily representative of most Christians on the board, since we should have *at least* five thousand Christians here (a very conservative estimate) and the overwhelming majority of them are not weighing in.

 

If the offended parties are looking (still) for some kind of acknowledgement that b/c they believe something, everybody else has to put it in a special, differentiated class from the rest of our religions, I just don't think they're ever going to get it.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm just sorry it's been such a difficult discussion.

 

The difficult discussions are always the ones most worth having. :)

[WishboneDawn]

From a non-Christian or even a Protestant Christian background in which saints did not figure, it can be quite unexpected, particularly in a children's book.

 

Just an interesting note. The Saints really do figure for some Protestants. In my Anglican tradition for instance. Not in the same way as they do for Catholics mind you but they're there.

 

But thank you for bringing them up. We tend to stop with the Bible when we talk about Christian mythology and stories but the saints are a wonderful (if sometimes gory) example of how it doesn't stop. The stories of the Holy Grail are another example.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I know it's going to be a losing battle, but I'd just like to point out (one last time) that the Christian Bible stories could at one-and-the-same-time be "God's Truth" and "mythology", because myth and mythology do not mean "false story" they mean a "sacred story."

 

One may (or may not) believe in the truth of the sacred stories of other cultures (or ones own dominant culture) but the term myth does not carry that value judgement despite the obvious misunderstanding evidenced in this thread.

 

Where is "the Over-mind" when we need her?

 

Bill

 

Isn't there some cute quote about cats losing their tails every time "Myth" is used to mean "false" that you can put in your signature? Then it wouldn't have to be explained over and over.... (please know that I'm smiling as I type this, and hope it comes across as lighthearted and a bit funny, while still indicating that I'm in agreement with your definition of myth/mythology, because that has been my understanding since high school)

Edited February 5, 2010 by MeanestMomInMidwest
forgot how to spell

[HRAAB]

We recently came across an absolutely gorgeous picture book at the library's children's section by Ruth Sanderson called "Saints: Lives and Illuminations."

 

I have had this book before. I remember it having some beautiful illustrations and very short bios. I don't particularly remember how graphic this one was, but many of the early saints were martyred in the coloseum, so pretty gruesome deaths. But my girls all get into that gory stuff. They love those horrible history books.

 

Actually, with these early saints, many of these stories have passed beyond fact into the realm of legend. I remember hands growing back on, being boiled in water and surviving without a mark. That type of thing.

[MelanieM]

To the first... I was attempting to joke too, as well as that went ;) I still wouldn't trust you with the kick-me sign... you already threatened to taunt me with "mythology" (and that idea did turn my stomach, the idea of a parent and child mocking someone together..... ).

 

Oh goodness! I never said I would taunt something with my kids, even jokingly! The idea of someone mocking with their child turns my stomach, too. (My kids would be in sooooo much trouble if they were ever caught making fun of anyone for anything. That just doesn't fly here.) The point I was trying to make was that brow-beating me invoked a response that made me want to *act like a four year old*. Thankfully, I'm able to control myself. But truly, I was just trying to point out how being offensive is never a good way to illustrate to someone how they might be causing offensive.

 

You know, this is a pretty interesting point... How do the offended Christians deal with the discussion of other religions in their homes? Do you make fun of the stories you read as you're studying mythology, ancient history, or world religions? (I've seen those discussion here on this board, so I'm guessing yes.) I'm willing to bet that some offended Christians on this thread say a lot about other religions that would not pass as acceptable about *any* religion in my home, or the home of many others I know.

 

Bill, thank you for so patiently, and clearly, repeating yourself again and again! You're a rock!

 

Saille, thank you for your continued attempts to get to the heart of this issue. A big yeah that to your last post (and the others).

 

Karen, thanks for the information on the Saint stories. I appreciate you "translating" a lot of this for me, giving such clear reasoning behind what a non-Christian might need compared to a Christian, and helping to narrow my choices down.

[lionfamily1999]

Just an interesting note. The Saints really do figure for some Protestants. In my Anglican tradition for instance. Not in the same way as they do for Catholics mind you but they're there.

 

But thank you for bringing them up. We tend to stop with the Bible when we talk about Christian mythology and stories but the saints are a wonderful (if sometimes gory) example of how it doesn't stop. The stories of the Holy Grail are another example.

You know what, you're right :D

 

We know about some of the saints (Baptist, here), because of our Catholic roots (grandparents on both sides). The saints DO figure into a lot of history and literature. There was a web site I found once.... that I can't drum up right now, but you could type in any name and if there was a saint their story and pictures/paintings would pop up.

 

I'll try to find it, that was a really neat little site.

 

ETA: links to two sites, Catholic Online and Roman Catholic Saints neither one is the one I used to use, but they do allow searches by name.

Edited February 5, 2010 by lionfamily1999

[kokotg]

Isn't there some cute quote about cats losing their tails every time "Myth" is used to mean "false" that you can put in your signature? Then it wouldn't have to be explained over and over.... (please know that I'm smiling as I type this, and hope it comes across as lighthearted and a bit funny, while still indicating that I'm in agreement with your definition of myth/mythology, because that has been my understanding since high school)

 

You know, I just checked Dictionary.com, and they claim the first use of myth to mean a falsehood happened back in 1840. I think Bill's crusade against that usage is probably even more futile than my annoyance with people misusing "begs the question" ;)

 

ETA: I hope no one is offended by my choice of the word "crusade" --either for religious reasons or because I'm giving it a meaning it did not originally have

 

E(again)TA: "crusade" was first used in this figurative sense in 1786. Has THAT been long enough yet? ;)

Edited February 5, 2010 by kokotg

[lionfamily1999]

Oh goodness! I never said I would taunt something with my kids, even jokingly! The idea of someone mocking with their child turns my stomach, too. (My kids would be in sooooo much trouble if they were ever caught making fun of anyone for anything. That just doesn't fly here.)

It was a JOKE when you wrote it (I'm sure), but not, imo, a tasteful one, iykwIm. I'm not going to dig through this thread to find it, but it was the post that I responded to the first time.

 

The point I was trying to make was that brow-beating me invoked a response that made me want to *act like a four year old*. Thankfully, I'm able to control myself. But truly, I was just trying to point out how being offensive is never a good way to illustrate to someone how they might be causing offensive.

 

You know, this is a pretty interesting point... How do the offended Christians deal with the discussion of other religions in their homes? Do you make fun of the stories you read as you're studying mythology, ancient history, or world religions? (I've seen those discussion here on this board, so I'm guessing yes.) I'm willing to bet that some offended Christians on this thread say a lot about other religions that would not pass as acceptable about *any* religion in my home, or the home of many others I know.

You're assuming a lot there. Ds and I study other religions as they come up in History or elsewhere. I do not know any Christians that make fun of other - I can't think how to put this - modern?living? religions. I will give you, though, that the Greek, Roman, Viking, &tc religions do get some giggles. Ds thought the story of Thor was hilarious and he did find a lot about the Greek and Roman gods/esses that either made no sense or just struck his funny bone. :shrug: He laughs and then we discuss and a big part of the discussion is why whatever story or belief is NOT really a laughing matter. How that story or belief led the listeners to behave in certain ways &tc.

 

I know Christians that are cruel about other religions. I know Christians that are mean. All the Christians I know are sinners (ba dump bump). I also know Athiests that are cruel, condenscending, rude and teach that to their children. No religious group has more bad characters than another, ime. Humanity is the only group with a premium on cruelty (iow, every division in humanity gets its fair share of jerks).

[Greta]

I am a brand new Christian, or not even a Christian YET depending on your definition (haven't been baptized, but working towards it). I'm the first to admit my knowledge of the Bible and Christian history is scanty, but I am changing that.

 

I wonder if a more mature Christian could please explain to me upon what basis we as Christians feel we have the right to be respected or treated courteously by non-Christians?

 

I don't feel that Melanie actually WAS disrespectful or discourteous, but obviously at least a vocal few did, and I am wondering why this surprised you or why you would speak out (I won't even go into the fact that some of you accused her of things she never said, and assumed motives that were not implied)? As Christians, are we called to do this?

 

Like I said, I do not know the Bible well yet. But I do sing the liturgy in church every Sunday, and I keep thinking of this part:

 

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven.

 

Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.

 

Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

 

This just doesn't leave me feeling that I should have any expectation of being treated respectfully, or that I should react when not treated respectfully.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Note: Melanie, I want to reiterate that I do not feel you actually WERE disrespectful, and I'm certainly not saying that you reviled or persecuted anyone! I'm just confused by the reaction. I would think that when a non-Christian expresses any amount of interest in Christianity, that would be an occasion to rejoice and be exceedingly glad.

[MelanieM]

You're assuming a lot there. Ds and I study other religions as they come up in History or elsewhere. I do not know any Christians that make fun of other - I can't think how to put this - modern?living? religions. I will give you, though, that the Greek, Roman, Viking, &tc religions do get some giggles. Ds thought the story of Thor was hilarious and he did find a lot about the Greek and Roman gods/esses that either made no sense or just struck his funny bone. :shrug: He laughs and then we discuss and a big part of the discussion is why whatever story or belief is NOT really a laughing matter. How that story or belief led the listeners to behave in certain ways &tc.

 

I'm not really assuming, actually. I've read things on this forum that would be considered disrespectful to believers of various religions. I don't think that the number of people practicing a religion should dictate whether or not that's acceptable. Also, I would count a belief system as modern and living when there are modern, living people who practice it. Wouldn't you?

 

I know Christians that are cruel about other religions. I know Christians that are mean. All the Christians I know are sinners (ba dump bump). I also know Athiests that are cruel, condenscending, rude and teach that to their children. No religious group has more bad characters than another, ime. Humanity is the only group with a premium on cruelty (iow, every division in humanity gets its fair share of jerks).

 

I absolutely agree.

[naturalmom]

Please don't assume that the only ones offended were those who posted. I did not like the use of the term, but recognize that there are different views on the board, and so stayed out of the discussion. After about 10 pages, I stayed out because I am a big chicken. Who wants to provoke insults?

 

For the record, when I have been in the company of people of different faiths (Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus) I have thought about my words, and recognized that communication involves more than just my intended meaning. Everything has to filter through THEIR interpretations. I always felt that the onus was on me to not offend, not on them to "not be offended".

 

This week our family devotion has been on listening to instruction and accepting correction. So I have to say that it is true that I should NOT have been so easily offended.

 

(1 Corinthians 13:5 Love...is not provoked, and does not take into account a wrong suffered.)

[momofabcd]

I saw this post when nobody had posted yet. And, by the title of the post, knew it would open a can of worms. My original thought was to post that putting Christianity together with mythology is an oxymoron. And it is!!! But I chose not to post. Why am I posting now? I have not clue. However, whether one chooses to believe or not is their perogotive. So christians should not be surprised by the wording. However, calling Christian Bible events mythology is something I've NEVER heard throughout History. There is enough archeological evidence, geological evidence, scientific evidence that keeps on proving the Bible is true. The truth is that everyone practices a "religion" even the OP. We all have a worldview. The Bible says God is the one true God, and that nobody can go to heaven except through Christ. This might sound arrogant to those who don't believe. But, that's what God says. The OP asked for books on Bible stories. We should be kind enough to provide that for her.

 

Here is a list of some good children's Bibles that don't have commentary

The Child's Story Bible by Catherine Vos

The Golden Children's Bible

The Children's Illustrated Bible

The Hurlbut Story Bible you can find it on Yesterday'sClassics. com There is also a wealth of other religious books on that sight.

[Spy Car]

You know, I just checked Dictionary.com, and they claim the first use of myth to mean a falsehood happened back in 1840. I think Bill's crusade against that usage is probably even more futile than my annoyance with people misusing "begs the question" ;)

 

 

I figure the Barbarians sacked Rome in 410, but there are a few of us left who seek to keep Classical Education, Classical Culture, and Classical Languages alive, despite the overwhelming odds...because maintaining our cultural patrimony (why not matrimony?) is worth the battle.

 

The Visigoths are coming!

The Visigoths are coming!

 

Bill

[Saille]

Please don't assume that the only ones offended were those who posted. I did not like the use of the term, but recognize that there are different views on the board

 

That seems like a mature reaction.

 

After about 10 pages, I stayed out because I am a big chicken. Who wants to provoke insults?

 

I'm not sure who's been insulted, other than Melanie, the OP, by Julie.

 

For the record, when I have been in the company of people of different faiths (Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus) I have thought about my words, and recognized that communication involves more than just my intended meaning. Everything has to filter through THEIR interpretations. I always felt that the onus was on me to not offend, not on them to "not be offended".

 

I understand, but what if they're determined to be offended?

 

This week our family devotion has been on listening to instruction and accepting correction. So I have to say that it is true that I should NOT have been so easily offended.

 

(1 Corinthians 13:5 Love...is not provoked, and does not take into account a wrong suffered.)

 

I've been thinking about this as I've gone through this thread. In truth, I'm still here for two reasons.

 

1. I keep addressing issues very directly, and not getting a response.

2. The double-standard inherent to the offended party's argument is a very slippery slope. There is a difference between correction and bullying, and I perceive this argument, which keeps coming back to "but it makes me MAD!" as the latter.

[MSNative]

 

For the record, when I have been in the company of people of different faiths (Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus) I have thought about my words, and recognized that communication involves more than just my intended meaning. Everything has to filter through THEIR interpretations. I always felt that the onus was on me to not offend, not on them to "not be offended".

)

 

I agree.

 

This whole thread got me thinking. We need a new phrase, kind of like pass the bean dip, for when someone is saying something that could be offensive. A nice way to not get into a whole big long to do, just a gentle reminder that sometimes what you think you're saying is not what people are reading. And a way to remind people to ease up and give others the benefit of the doubt. I suggest "May you never thirst"

[babysparkler]

I am a brand new Christian, or not even a Christian YET depending on your definition (haven't been baptized, but working towards it). I'm the first to admit my knowledge of the Bible and Christian history is scanty, but I am changing that.

 

I wonder if a more mature Christian could please explain to me upon what basis we as Christians feel we have the right to be respected or treated courteously by non-Christians?

 

I don't feel that Melanie actually WAS disrespectful or discourteous, but obviously at least a vocal few did, and I am wondering why this surprised you or why you would speak out (I won't even go into the fact that some of you accused her of things she never said, and assumed motives that were not implied)? As Christians, are we called to do this?

 

Like I said, I do not know the Bible well yet. But I do sing the liturgy in church every Sunday, and I keep thinking of this part:

 

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven.

 

Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.

 

Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

 

This just doesn't leave me feeling that I should have any expectation of being treated respectfully, or that I should react when not treated respectfully.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Note: Melanie, I want to reiterate that I do not feel you actually WERE disrespectful, and I'm certainly not saying that you reviled or persecuted anyone! I'm just confused by the reaction. I would think that when a non-Christian expresses any amount of interest in Christianity, that would be an occasion to rejoice and be exceedingly glad.

 

:iagree: You are right on.

 

(BTW... welcome to the family! :001_smile:)

[Greta]

Please don't assume that the only ones offended were those who posted.

 

No, I did not mean to assume. That's why I said "at least a vocal few". I certainly did not take the time to actually tally it up, but it did seem in reading through the thread that more people were posting in defense of Melanie than were posting to say they were offended. But I could be wrong about that. I'm sure there were many people on both "sides" who did not actually post. I don't post in every thread that I have an emotional reaction to. Tried to resist posting in this one for a long time! In fact, I probably *should* make a rule that I will only post in the threads that I do NOT have an emotional reaction to! :D But that would be a tough rule to follow!

[Haiku]

I suggest "May you never thirst"

 

Good idea. :)

 

Tara

Edited February 5, 2010 by TaraTheLiberator

[MelanieM]

Ok, maybe this is a better question (i.e. one that will receive an answer!)... If you are offended by the word mythology as applied to your beliefs, do you intend to stop using it to refer to all other religious beliefs? If not, why?

 

naturalmom, I would agree that we should take care with our words so as not to intentionally offend others (though I wouldn't say it is my responsibility to ensure others feel no offense, as that is most certainly a choice people make). But how would you suggest we deal with this type of thing when the word (deed, what have you) is not offensive across the board? We've had Christians post that they are offended by the word mythology, others that have no issue with it, and some that prefer people DO use the word mythology to describe Christian stories. We have people saying mythology is a fine word for some faiths (as long as they're practiced by a minority? are considered dead by the majority?), but not for others. How does a person reconcile all of this? Is the word mythology offensive, or isn't it? How can the answer be both?

 

Honestly, if the answer is as Tara says, and I'm to use the word to describe one set of beliefs but not others as a way to suggest that a particular set of beliefs is more important or relevant, then I'll have to decline on the basis that it goes against the core of my belief system. It would be like me asking Christians to start believing, and acting as if they believe, that all Gods are equal. Can you all not see that? Why is it so hard to understand that asking a non-Christian to use words that imply Christianity is more "real" than other religious beliefs is unacceptable?

[Mom-ninja.]

I wonder how long this thread will continue.

 

It's clear that there are people who just feel that they have the right to demand respect (that is their idea of respect) and that's the end of the story.

 

Tara put it very well.

 

Bill, you can go on and on about the true meaning of the word myth and mythology, but people have to choose to listen.

[Greta]

(BTW... welcome to the family! :001_smile:)

 

Thank you SO much! :grouphug:

[Greta]

We need a new phrase, kind of like pass the bean dip, for when someone is saying something that could be offensive. A nice way to not get into a whole big long to do, just a gentle reminder that sometimes what you think you're saying is not what people are reading. And a way to remind people to ease up and give others the benefit of the doubt. I suggest "May you never thirst"

 

I love this!!!

[Lovedtodeath]

Ok, maybe this is a better question (i.e. one that will receive an answer!)... If you are offended by the word mythology as applied to your beliefs, do you intend to stop using it to refer to all other religious beliefs? If not, why?

 

..............................

 

It would be like me asking Christians to start believing, and acting as if they believe, that all Gods are equal. Can you all not see that? Why is it so hard to understand that asking a non-Christian to use words that imply Christianity is more "real" than other religious beliefs is unacceptable?

 

You answered your own question. If I did not believe that my faith is based on Truth, and thus all others are not then, personally, it would make no sense for me to be a Christian at all. That doesn't mean that I have to be rude about it...

Edited February 5, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[swimmermom3]

It sounds like a good one, but I would love to see it firsthand. The price has dropped a bit; when it hits my comfort zone I'll get it and write a report. :)

 

I was looking for similar resources a while back. I think originally the book was $75 so I reluctantly gave up. I would like to hold it in my hands before purchasing. This thread discussed it briefly. Happygrrl, I think this project has an affiliation with Concordia College. Isn't it time for you to make a field trip starting at Powell's?

[Spy Car]

 

Bill, you can go on and on about the true meaning of the word myth and mythology, but people have to choose to listen.

 

My stamina might have failed, but the conversion of Jenn has filled my spirit with hopefulness that we can re-claim the right, respectable, and correct meaning of the term Myth from those who would corrupt this fine and noble term.

 

On this hill, I will make my stand :D

 

Bill

[MelanieM]

You answered your own question. If I did not believe that my faith is based on Truth, and thus all others are not then, personally, it would make no sense for me to be a Christian at all. That doesn't mean that I have to be rude about it...

 

Exactly! Of course it doesn't make any sense! And if I start talking like the Christian God is more important than other Gods, then it wouldn't make any sense for me to be a pantheist at all.

[Saille]

You answered your own question. If I did not believe that my faith is based on Truth, and thus all others are not then, personally, it would make no sense for me to be a Christian at all. That doesn't mean that I have to be rude about it...

 

Well, right. Because your beliefs are your business, but we all live in a world where it's a given that not everyone shares our beliefs. So there's a world of difference between believing yours is the one true way, and expecting the whole world to operate on that principle.

[MelanieM]

My stamina might have failed, but the conversion of Jenn has filled my spirit with hopefulness that we can re-claim the right, respectable, and correct meaning of the term Myth from those who would corrupt this fine and noble term.

 

On this hill, I will make my stand :D

 

Bill

 

And I'll gladly soldier on with you, Bill. Maybe we could have the definition printed on t-shirts or bumper stickers and hand them out on street corners.

[kokotg]

I figure the Barbarians sacked Rome in 410, but there are a few of us left who seek to keep Classical Education, Classical Culture, and Classical Languages alive, despite the overwhelming odds...because maintaining our cultural patrimony (why not matrimony?) is worth the battle.

 

The Visigoths are coming!

The Visigoths are coming!

 

Bill

 

Ah, but I trust you think there have been some things that have happened since then that are also worth learning? You can insist on the importance of maintaining the old while also acknowledging the usefulness of the new? I'm just messing with you, really--I've seen in past threads that "language evolves" isn't going to convince you on this point. Which begs the question....oh, wait, no it doesn't. Seriously, though, while I believe the "new" definition of myth can be useful, I can't really understand not taking someone at their word when they say they weren't using it that way. At any rate, as far as I can tell, the worst thing we can accuse the OP of is saying that she doesn't believe the Bible is literally true.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm not really assuming, actually. I've read things on this forum that would be considered disrespectful to believers of various religions.I don't think that the number of people practicing a religion should dictate whether or not that's acceptable. Also, I would count a belief system as modern and living when there are modern, living people who practice it. Wouldn't you?

 

 

 

I absolutely agree.

First, I misread you. Sorry, it's one of those days (the ones where the kids really SHOULD just play quietly for PITY'S SAKE and STOP interrupting me - oops, rant off). I thought you had insinuated that all Christians etc., but going back you were more specific, so apologies.

 

As for modern/living.... well... no, I wouldn't (ducking). Some people insist upon speaking Latin, but it's not a modern language. Some people still learn biblical Greek, and talk it, and write it, but it's not a modern language. By modern, or living, I mean something that is recognized and used by a large number of people. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judeism, Buddism, &tc. I know there are pagans, witches, &tc, but they are so far in the minority that I would say it's more of a throw back to a bygone era (like living history folks, or all those darlings that dress like it's the 30s). Of course, this is me talking, I would not call Jonah a myth either, so what does it matter?

 

All the same, while gods bashing each other with hammers may seem funny, again, if they are taught thoroughly, there's nothing to laugh at. If people truly believed that Zeus might visit them as an animal, imagine the possible impact on young women. People worshipping animals changes the dynamic of man's place in the world (I'm speaking from our pov, so it would change our perception of man's place...).

 

Chips on shoulders can cause people to be offended by anything percieved to be a slight. I've seen more people getting offended on here for something that seemed, imo, completely innocent than I've seen people offended for an obvious offense. All the same, I mean, isn't it obvious (yet) that Muslims and Christians (at the very least, although I'm sure we could throw in most other major religions as well) do not appreciate having their beliefs called myths. Does the definition of a word really matter if its effect is so extreme? Christians are being called out for being offended, but the title specifies Christians. Try one specifying Muslims, or any other major religion, and I would not be surprised if you had people offended. What to do then? I dunno, maybe we could all learn to respect each others' feelings. :smilielol5: That's gonna happen.

 

 

Ok, maybe this is a better question (i.e. one that will receive an answer!)... If you are offended by the word mythology as applied to your beliefs, do you intend to stop using it to refer to all other religious beliefs? If not, why?

 

But how would you suggest we deal with this type of thing when the word (deed, what have you) is not offensive across the board? We've had Christians post that they are offended by the word mythology, others that have no issue with it, and some that prefer people DO use the word mythology to describe Christian stories. We have people saying mythology is a fine word for some faiths (as long as they're practiced by a minority? are considered dead by the majority?), but not for others. How does a person reconcile all of this? Is the word mythology offensive, or isn't it? How can the answer be both?

 

Can you all not see that? Why is it so hard to understand that asking a non-Christian to use words that imply Christianity is more "real" than other religious beliefs is unacceptable?

I sort of answered question number one above, as far as how I would delineate it. Really, though, I don't tend to call the Greek stories myths either :p We read about the Greek gods/esses (same for Roman etc) and whenever talking about it, I just say we're covering whatever (Greece, Rome, etc) for history.

 

To the second collection of questions... You could ask that about any offensive word. Some people are offended by N some aren't, what's a person to do?!? Recently a white house guy used the "r" word, which I won't type because I don't want to offend anyone ;) , obviously he didn't find it offensive, but lots of people do. All I can tell you is to either do your best not to be intentionally offensive, to remember how some people feel about some things, and to err on the side of compassion and caution; or you can just think f- (another offensive word) it and tread on whomever gets in the way.

 

As to the last. Again. Christianity was SPECIFIED by the title. You put Christians in the spot light with this. Why is it so hard to understand WHY Christians would feel personally offended when THEIR religion was the one named in the TITLE?

[mommyrooch]

I won't argue that the term myth hasn't been vulgarized by reality-show producers (and others) it has. But the fact remains there is a long tradition of scholastic use that continues to this day, and that usage is the correct use.

 

I'd assume as community of people interested in Classical Education we would use terms like Myth and Mythology in their proper classical meaning and context, and not let our standards be lowered to those of the barbarians.

 

You gotta have hope :D

 

Bill

 

I just had to say that I :001_wub: the bolded part above.

 

We can have hope! ;)

[Saille]

Now I just want to put Spy Car and kokotg in a room and watch them argue. With coffee. Lots of coffee.

[Woodland_Mom]

I haven't read all 23 pages of posts, but it seems that the original question has sparked some serious debate!

 

I've been reading a book called "Don't Check Your Brains at the Door" by Josh McDowell & Bob Hostetler. Believe it or not, there is a chapter about the Bible and Myth! Here are a couple of thought's I'd like to throw out there.

 

If you think about it, the Bible does contain some pretty unbelievable stories. Stories that we could title as:

 

 

Man Walks on Water

Little Boy's Lunch Feeds 5000

Turn Water into Wine to cut Expenses at Your Wedding

Galilean Teacher Returns from the Grave

 

 

 

 

 

Quoting from the book, "No matter how incredible some Bible stories may seem, however, the people who reported these things clearly intended their accounts to be understood not as myth or legend, but as fact. Not only that, but the New Testament writers knew that relating such remarkable facts might cost them their lives. How many people do YOU know who would gladly be imprisoned, even executed, for refusing to recant a legend? . . . The New Testament writers knew that telling stories about a rabbi raising himself from the dead or 5000 people being fed from 5 loaves (of bread) and two fish was a sure ticket to the funny farm--unless there were other witnesses."

 

 

 

 

The Apostle Paul said in 2 Peter 1:16: "We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our LORD Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty."

 

 

 

 

Many people saw Biblically recorded events. Reasonable people testified of the events--in writing--about their authenticity and even signed in blood. This is historical fact.

 

 

 

 

Christians believe the Bible as truth, not myth. Beyond just believing that the Bible is truth by faith . . . No other ancient document can even come close to the number of manuscript copies of the Bible that still exist today. The Old Testament was copied by hand, one letter at a time, in an extremely careful fashion. If even one mistake was made, the copy was destroyed. Each copy had to be written in a uniform manner, in a certain color, with a certain quality of ink. Each copy had to be made from an original. Not even one letter could be written from memory. Each letter was copied singly, one letter at a time from the original. Every letter on every page and book was counted and compared to the letter counts of the original. If the calculations were incorrect, the copied scroll was destroyed.

 

 

 

 

The New Testament was written from 40 AD - 100 AD and over 24,000 manuscript copies exist today. Archaeological evidence also supports events in the Bible as fact. In additon, there are many extra-Biblical references to the same events.

 

 

 

 

When you studied Plato in school, did the teacher discuss any skepticism about the reliability of his writings? How about Catullus or Julius Caesar's writings? Or Aristotle? Could they have been copied incorrectly? The Bible is the most reliable document of all time. No other work was copied with such precision. The telephone game didn't happen to the Bible. It is not a book of myths.

 

 

 

 

When I read the original poster's question I didn't respond, because I wasn't even sure I understood the question. Maybe I still don't. It's hard to suggest books that provide myth/legend-type stories from the Bible. The Bible is not full of holes or scattered with mistakes. The Bible is not myth. It is the inspired Word of God, written by about 40 authors. It is THE most carefully preserved and widely attested document of the ancient world. That may be hard to believe if you don't believe in the Bible. I understand that.

 

 

 

 

Whew! Now for a book suggestion: The DK Illustrated Bible is terrific! Not only does it have retellings of Biblical events, but it has very interesting pictures and archaeology information in the side margins. I enjoyed using it as we went through ancient history. The illustraitons and pictures bring great interest to children--and adults. Also: Journey through the Bible is excellent.

 

 

 

 

I'm not offended by anyone. I hope I haven't offended anyone by sharing my thoughts and beliefs.

 

 

 

 

Blessings!

 

 

[swimmermom3]

I figure the Barbarians sacked Rome in 410, but there are a few of us left who seek to keep Classical Education, Classical Culture, and Classical Languages alive, despite the overwhelming odds...because maintaining our cultural patrimony (why not matrimony?) is worth the battle.

 

The Visigoths are coming!

The Visigoths are coming!

 

Bill

 

Hey, I resemble your remark. I would have responded earlier but had to get the kids out the door for a day of plundering and pillaging. When they return we'll play a nice game of holding out our hands and smacking each others knuckles with a ruler to see who flinches first. Barbarians, indeed. :D

[Satori]

My stamina might have failed, but the conversion of Jenn has filled my spirit with hopefulness that we can re-claim the right, respectable, and correct meaning of the term Myth from those who would corrupt this fine and noble term.

 

On this hill, I will make my stand :D

 

Bill

 

I am rooting for you Bill! For the record, I am silently rooting for everyone defending the right to say "mythology" if they desire. Before this lengthy post I already learned that it can mean "a story that express the religion, beliefs and morals of a culture".

 

But what I find amazing (and it was already mentioned here), is that the OP is actively seeking out to read Christian stories and the Bible. Christians should be helping her, not attacking her! Why all the defensiveness for someone who innocently wanted to read your stories?

 

My life is too busy to participate in the controversy any further, but I will continue to read for any hidden gems. Only in the past few months I've realized the benefits of having my children learn stories of the Bible, Koran, etc... Again, I would think that the Christians might cheer me on in these efforts! :)

 

Thanks to some people in this thread who've chosen to help instead of hinder, I now have the following arriving on Monday:

 

 

• The Bible and It's Influence (snagged this one for half price and free 2-day shipping!)

• Demi books Jesus and Mohammed and will be getting all her books eventually

• God's People: Stories from the Old Testament

• God's People: Stories from the New Testament

• Timeless themes: Stories from the Hebrew and Christian Bibles for grades 3 and 4

   

• DK The Children's Illustrated Bible

 

I started a thread for recommendations, and once these arrive, I'll be reviewing them on my blog.

[daybreaking]

...that we can re-claim the right, respectable, and correct meaning of the term Myth from those who would corrupt this fine and noble term.

 

Could you then explain why a myriad of dictionaries include the following definitions (which I've copied word for word) of "myth"? (The dictionaries do also include your definition, but only as one of several definitions.)

 

false belief: a widely held but mistaken belief

 

fictitious person or thing: somebody who or something that is fictitious or nonexistent, but whose existence is widely believed in

 

an unfounded or false notion

 

a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

 

any fictitious story, or unscientific account, theory, belief, etc.

 

any imaginary person or thing spoken of as though existing

 

A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology

 

a fictitious story, person, or thing

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess I don't understand how, as a classical educator, I'm only to follow your given definition and ignore all of the other ones found in each dictionary I checked. I'm wondering what it is about your definition that makes it superior and the only one classical, educated, intelligent people would use? I'm not here for an argument; I'm only looking for clarification.

[nmoira]

 

Now I just want to put Spy Car and kokotg in a room and watch them argue. With coffee. Lots of coffee.

Wine methinks.

[Greta]

Why is it so hard to understand WHY Christians would feel personally offended when THEIR religion was the one named in the TITLE?

 

Hi Julie! I'd like to jump in here, if that's okay. It was hard for *ME* to understand, because Melanie was clearly asking for a way to teach her children about the sacred stories of Christianity using resources that did not assume the reader was a Christian who believed those stories to be literally true. But she got treated as if she were asking for resources to prove to her children that Christianity is false, and in fact, was even accused of that very thing. The reaction was so disproportionate to the alleged offense, that I was stunned.

[MelanieM]

As for modern/living.... well... no, I wouldn't (ducking). Some people insist upon speaking Latin, but it's not a modern language. Some people still learn biblical Greek, and talk it, and write it, but it's not a modern language. By modern, or living, I mean something that is recognized and used by a large number of people. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judeism, Buddism, &tc. I know there are pagans, witches, &tc, but they are so far in the minority that I would say it's more of a throw back to a bygone era (like living history folks, or all those darlings that dress like it's the 30s). Of course, this is me talking, I would not call Jonah a myth either, so what does it matter?

 

Interesting. I wonder how many of us there needs to be before we count? If Christianity starts to dwindle in numbers, can we have this conversation again?

 

All the same, I mean, isn't it obvious (yet) that Muslims and Christians (at the very least, although I'm sure we could throw in most other major religions as well) do not appreciate having their beliefs called myths. Does the definition of a word really matter if its effect is so extreme?

 

But as I stated above, there are even Christians posting saying they *like* to hear the term mythology. (Thanks, WishboneDawn!) And certainly I wouldn't make a general statement about Muslims and Christians do not appreciate having their beliefs called myths. Many here have posted saying they could care less and/or completely understand why a non-Christian would use that term.

 

Christians are being called out for being offended, but the title specifies Christians.

 

Actually, the title specifies non-Christians. Or do you just mean with regard to subject matter? In that case, what about all the threads that are titled with XYZ mythology? Again with the double-standard, which is the point some of us are trying to make.

 

I sort of answered question number one above, as far as how I would delineate it. Really, though, I don't tend to call the Greek stories myths either :p We read about the Greek gods/esses (same for Roman etc) and whenever talking about it, I just say we're covering whatever (Greece, Rome, etc) for history.

 

You may not call them myths, but I think we can all agree that this is the culturally accepted standard term to refer to the sacred stories of many religious groups -- Greeks, Romans, Norse, Hindu, Native American... Google some terms, check book titles on Amazon.

 

 

Christians believe the Bible as truth, not myth.

 

Interesting post, Angela. If I may point out (because you said you didn't read through the thread) it has been clearly stated here that I at no time said anything one way or the other whether or not I believed the Bible to contain truth or fiction. Myth does not equal untrue. Scan the first page for a post from Spy Car to get a better handle on where we're going with this point.

 

That said... Whether or not I believe the Bible to be true should be irrelevant. In fact, it's rather silly that the offense is about me using mythology, which apparently is taken to mean fiction, when I don't think those same offended people would care a lick if I wrote a post that said "I am a non-Christian and do not teach the Bible as fact. Can you recommend some books for me?" So the very fact that I used a word that *does not* pass judgement on whether or not the religious teachings are true or false is what's biting me in the bum. Funny, really.

 

 

[KarenNC]

Just an interesting note. The Saints really do figure for some Protestants. In my Anglican tradition for instance. Not in the same way as they do for Catholics mind you but they're there.

 

But thank you for bringing them up. We tend to stop with the Bible when we talk about Christian mythology and stories but the saints are a wonderful (if sometimes gory) example of how it doesn't stop. The stories of the Holy Grail are another example.

 

Naturally, the mythos of any religion extends far beyond the official documents.

 

Interesting. I was a very involved part of the Episcopal Church (in three different parishes) for close to a decade and there was only really what I would call a nominal presence or awareness, primarily in the naming of churches (and a nod to St. Cecilia on the part of the choir during a retreat) :001_smile:, but I wasn't there as a child. In my times of involvement (which were heavy) with the Presbyterian, Baptist and Assembly of God denominations (as a child, teen, adult), saints, outside of perhaps knowing that the Gospel writers and Paul had that title, did not appear. Instead we had stories of missionaries and the like (similar sometimes but not quite the same thing). None of them had the same standing or relationship I saw exhibited by my friends in the Roman Catholic Church or that described by my friend who did anthropology fieldwork in Chiapas, Mexico in the 80s. No intercessory prayer, shrines, cards, relics, etc. for instance.

 

Now I am definitely willing to admit that my view of the role of saints in the Roman Catholic Church may be heavily colored by my love of medieval history.;)

[MelanieM]

Hi Julie! I'd like to jump in here, if that's okay. It was hard for *ME* to understand, because Melanie was clearly asking for a way to teach her children about the sacred stories of Christianity using resources that did not assume the reader was a Christian who believed those stories to be literally true. But she got treated as if she were asking for resources to prove to her children that Christianity is false, and in fact, was even accused of that very thing. The reaction was so disproportionate to the alleged offense, that I was stunned.

 

Yes! Thank you, Greta. For this and for your other wonderful post.