Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) Yes, many people let this guy down, starting, most likely, at birth. You asked, Um.....that's a pretty big assumption to make, based on my one-sentence statement that his sentence was commuted. And you might want to ask Nestof3 that question-- she stated further down the thread that she doesn't believe that theives can be rehabilitated. Fact is, he was out, and he shouldn't have been. Terrible instance of hindsight being 20/20. astrid It's not a big assumption to make. What do we do when a teenager gets such a long sentence and people are asking for clemency? What do we do when the judge agrees with the clemency? No prosecutor stood up and said no at the time. Plus, he'd been in and out of prison since then. I think if we are going to point fingers it needs to encompass all the people who failed. It's too easy to just say it's Huckabees fault. What would you have done if you were Huckabee? He got a lot of flack for the commuting sentences when he did them but he had Democrats pushing for it. Edited December 1, 2009 by True Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 Because Mike Huckabee commuted his 95 year sentence. astrid Well, of course. It would have been the right thing to do, given his worldview. Clemmon's fate was not, ultimately, up to Huckabee. (ducks and runs) a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well, of course. It would have been the right thing to do, given his worldview. Clemmon's fate was not, ultimately, up to Huckabee. (ducks and runs) a Another post I don't understand. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It's not a big assumption to make. What do we do when a teenager gets such a long sentence and people are asking for clemency? What do we do when the judge agrees with the clemency? No prosecutor stood up and said no at the time.. See, I was reading your question, "So then we should stop commuting sentences altogether and pardoning people??" as "So Astrid, you are suggesting that we stop commuting sentences altogether and pardoning people? Really?" in response to my one-sentence statement of fact that his sentence was commuted. And yes, I do think that it's a pretty big leap. That's like saying, "I got in a car accident this morning. I should stop driving a car." And Huckabee was the Governor. He had the final say. Of course no judge or prosecutor was going to contradict the Governor and risk their own political skins. Sickening, I agree. Plus, he'd been in and out of prison since then. What I'm saying is, if he hadn't been let out in the first place, he would not have had the opportunity to be in and out of prison in the more recent past. I think if we are going to point fingers it needs to encompass all the people who failed. It's too easy to just say it's Huckabees fault. I didn't say that. Someone else asked why he was out on the street, and I said that Huckabee commuted his sentence. If he had not, the guy would still be in jail. What would you have done if you were Huckabee? He got a lot of flack for the commuting sentences when he did them but he had Democrats pushing for it. Oh yes, I'm sure it's all the Democrats' fault! :D Fact is, Huckabee gave the order. If he did so in reaction to political pressure it doesn't make the decision any more sound, IMHO. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Another post I don't understand. :001_huh: I think Asta is saying that since Huckabee comes from a conservative Christian worldview, and (presumably, I'm not one myself) believes that everyone's fate is ultimately in God's hands, Huckabee was just removing the state from that equation and letting him out so that God could direct his fate. Or something like that. I'm guessing here...... <shrug> astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Darn it! Why didn't the quotes show up in little blue boxes?? :confused: Sorry, True Blue. I tried to make it more clear! astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 See, I was reading your question, "So then we should stop commuting sentences altogether and pardoning people??" as "So Astrid, you are suggesting that we stop commuting sentences altogether and pardoning people? Really?" in response to my one-sentence statement of fact that his sentence was commuted. And yes, I do think that it's a pretty big leap. That's like saying, "I got in a car accident this morning. I should stop driving a car." And Huckabee was the Governor. He had the final say. Of course no judge or prosecutor was going to contradict the Governor and risk their own political skins. Sickening, I agree. Plus, he'd been in and out of prison since then. What I'm saying is, if he hadn't been let out in the first place, he would not have had the opportunity to be in and out of prison in the more recent past. I think if we are going to point fingers it needs to encompass all the people who failed. It's too easy to just say it's Huckabees fault. I didn't say that. Someone else asked why he was out on the street, and I said that Huckabee commuted his sentence. If he had not, the guy would still be in jail. What would you have done if you were Huckabee? He got a lot of flack for the commuting sentences when he did them but he had Democrats pushing for it. Oh yes, I'm sure it's all the Democrats' fault! :D Fact is, Huckabee gave the order. If he did so in reaction to political pressure it doesn't make the decision any more sound, IMHO. astrid Understand that I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm just trying to understand. I don't think Huckabee commuted his sentence on a whim or as a power trip. He only cut it in half to 47 years. But then he was eligible for parole. Who paroled him? Why didn't the prosecutor stop it? Why did the judge plead for Clemmons? Why? I'm confused and I don't want to fight about it, but many liberals do want commutation and clemency of sentences especially for young offenders. So then when someone ends up being a monster and could have been imprisoned many times over they target Huckabee? It sounds too political for me. I don't think the media is bothering to really look deeper either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Darn it! Why didn't the quotes show up in little blue boxes?? :confused: Sorry, True Blue. I tried to make it more clear! astrid It's okay. I understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I think Asta is saying that since Huckabee comes from a conservative Christian worldview, and (presumably, I'm not one myself) believes that everyone's fate is ultimately in God's hands, Huckabee was just removing the state from that equation and letting him out so that God could direct his fate. Or something like that. I'm guessing here...... <shrug> astrid Hmm, okay. I don't understand that considering most of the people wanting clemency aren't Republicans and are just as often agnostic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Thanks for discussing this, Astrid. I have to go now. Have a great day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'm confused and I don't want to fight about it, but many liberals do want commutation and clemency of sentences especially for young offenders. Sooo......are you assuming that because I'm not politically conservative, I'm in favor of letting youthful offenders off the hook? Wrong. I'm not. But as I read more and more about this case, I'm really struck by the sentences some folks in Arkansas recieve......they're not shy about handing out long setences, are they? Or only for some folks? I think what most liberals want, at least those with whom I've spoken, is more emphasis on prevention rather than commutation. Programs that focus on cleaning up poverty, improving educational opportunites and providing positive role models/support are all designed with one goal in mind--- to prevent kids from turning to lives of crime, drugs and disengagement from society. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 You too!! :001_smile: astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I don't think you can blame humanism or Christian redemption for criminals walking our streets. Most criminals are let out of prison because we lack jail space. We lack jail space despite the fact that more people are imprisoned in the US than any other country. We blow other countries out of the water with our prison statistics, even including countries with mostly political prisoners. I agree with what astrid said, here: I think what most liberals want, at least those with whom I've spoken, is more emphasis on prevention rather than commutation. Programs that focus on cleaning up poverty, improving educational opportunites and providing positive role models/support are all designed with one goal in mind--- to prevent kids from turning to lives of crime, drugs and disengagement from society. The other thing that is different about the US vs. other countries? In the US authorities cannot commit someone against their will unless they are an extreme danger to society. A large number of our homeless and criminals are mentally ill. This guy is a pretty good example, it seems: Clemmons was charged in Washington state earlier this year with assaulting a police officer and raping a child, and investigators in the sex case said he was motivated by visions that he was Jesus Christ and that the world was on the verge of the apocalypse. A psychological evaluation conducted in October found he was a risk to public safety, but not a bad enough risk to justify committing him, The News Tribune of Tacoma reported. The confidential report acquired by the newspaper was ordered by a Pierce County Superior Court judge to determine whether Clemmons was competent to stand trial on the rape and assault charges. He was found competent and was released from jail after posting bail with the assistance of Jail Sucks Bail Bonds. At the time of his arrest, he allegedly made "religiously-themed comments, told the officer President Obama and Lebron James are his brothers, Oprah (Winfrey) is his sister and referred to himself as 'the beast,'" according to the evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I don't trust in psychology or child development gurus. Actually, the Pearls and Tripp (and Dobson, to a lesser extent) all base their child rearing/pedagogy in behaviorism. Behaviorism is psychology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 We just left a church when I found out people there were into the Pearl's. It was the last straw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 When did the Pearls say to "stay" with a child molester? In an article on their website. It was Mr Pearl that said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Actually, the Pearls and Tripp (and Dobson, to a lesser extent) all base their child rearing/pedagogy in behaviorism. Behaviorism is psychology. No, Tripp actually goes to the heart of a person. He's not a behaviorist the way Dobson is--simply addressing behavior and not the underlying sin issue. I just spent a weekend at a conference with Tripp, he is NOT into psychology, at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 No, Tripp actually goes to the heart of a person. He's not a behaviorist the way Dobson is--simply addressing behavior and not the underlying sin issue. I just spent a weekend at a conference with Tripp, he is NOT into psychology, at all. I disagree on several counts, Michelle. I hope you enjoyed your weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Knoll Mom Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Actually, the Pearls and Tripp (and Dobson, to a lesser extent) all base their child rearing/pedagogy in behaviorism. No, Tripp actually goes to the heart of a person. He's not a behaviorist the way Dobson is--simply addressing behavior and not the underlying sin issue. I disagree on several counts, Michelle. I agree with Michelle. Tripp rails against parents who focus on a child's behavior and not their heart. Could you elaborate on how you believe he's a behaviorist? (I know you disagree with Tripp on spanking, so you don't need to elaborate on that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 In an article on their website. It was Mr Pearl that said it. Please site the article so that I can read it. I will personally call Mr. Pearl and question him if he told a wife to live with a child molestor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Please site the article so that I can read it. I will personally call Mr. Pearl and question him if he told a wife to live with a child molestor. Whoo hoo Sunshine! You go girl. :boxing_smiley: :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) Please site the article so that I can read it. I will personally call Mr. Pearl and question him if he told a wife to live with a child molestor. http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/september/01/abusive-husband/ But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception. eta: Let us know what he says. Edited December 2, 2009 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dulcimeramy Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Please site the article so that I can read it. I will personally call Mr. Pearl and question him if he told a wife to live with a child molestor. Whoo hoo Sunshine! You go girl. :boxing_smiley::D :001_huh: You go girl?! I will never understand why grown women high-five each other like twelve-year-olds. This was already asked (by Sunshine) and answered upthread. On page 174 of the book, they state: "If your husband ever sexually handles your children, call the authorities. Testify against him in court, and pray that he gets at least twenty years in prison, so that the children will be grown when he gets out." However, they do not advocate the wife divorce him. "Visit him there, and be an encouragement to him. Get him books and tapes on good Bible teaching" They go on to suggest that children visit the father in the visiting area (presumably a safe place) in order for the kids to see that he is being punished for his actions. I am not agreeing or disagreeing here, just showing where it is mentioned to answer your question. I don't believe they endorse anywhere in this particular book for the mother and the children to continue living with a pedophile. I do not have an exhaustive knowledge of the Pearls though. what book? Sorry, forgot the title. Created to be His Help Meet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/september/01/abusive-husband/ eta: Let us know what he says. :boxing_smiley: Woo! You go girl! Way to use trufax! Edited December 2, 2009 by Sis To destroy gr4mm4r! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) I just can't get past that article. It is morally repugnant and theologically unsound. Edited December 2, 2009 by Daisy I was dumb & said or instead of and. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 He was 16 and got a huge sentence. Does anyone know what he did to earn it? I cannot find it. I read that he was 17 and the charge was armed robbery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I just can't get past that article. It is morally repugnant and theologically unsound. :iagree: The article is from 1999, and he seems to contradict himself in the response he gives here http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2006/may/01/sobering-issues/ (second question) seven years later. He is responding to a woman's descriptions of her husband's se*ual perversions (I think we would all agree child molestation to be a se*ual perversion) and his advice sounds different to me. Dear L, Perversion has no point of fulfillment. Once a man starts on the road to porn, and then into the perverse, there will be no point of satisfaction. Sexual perversion is a quest for the bazaar. When the bazaar becomes common it loses its appeal and must be traded in for the more twisted and vile (Titus 1:15). Tying you up is his practice of rape and violence. There can be no love in this behavior. It is an insatiable fantasy for the illicit and forbidden that excites him. Never participate in his evil imagination. It is time to let him leave and not come back. By leaving and by joining himself to another, he has become one flesh with the other person (1 Cor. 6:16). He is no longer one flesh with you, no longer married to you. He has “put you away.†In today’s terminology, you are a divorced woman. You are free from him, (1 Corinthians 7:15, Matthew 19:9). The Bible doesn’t tell a wife what to do in this case, because under Mosaic law, he would be put to death. The Bible assumes that no man would be allowed to live who committed theses sins. You share no blame for his sin. It is his alone. If you allow him to return after being with other women, you are at high risk for AIDS. After accepting the divorce he has pressed upon you, you may want to spend the rest of your days praying for his salvation and deliverance from sin. It would indeed bring glory to God if you should pray him into repentance. He still exhorts wives to pray for their xh's salvation and deliverance from sin, but it doesn't sound to me like he's encouraging anyone to stay with a p*rv*rt. I have to add: I don't like Michael Pearl; I don't dislike Michael Pearl. I don't really think about him *shrug*. I just know I have said stupid things in the past (o.k., I still do :tongue_smilie:) and / or have changed my mind about things, and tend to think M.P. is no different. It's a shame he hasn't removed his earlier advice; I sincerely hope he does do so in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Someone needs a :grouphug: and You go girl!:iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I agree with Michelle. Tripp rails against parents who focus on a child's behavior and not their heart. Could you elaborate on how you believe he's a behaviorist? (I know you disagree with Tripp on spanking, so you don't need to elaborate on that.) For the behaviorist question, the use of imposed punishment as an agent of change = behavior modification. As far as discussing his approach further, I can't separate out spanking, theology, child development, sin nature, and other issues and discuss them in isolation. I disagree with him on all the above issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 :Sexual perversion is a quest for the bazaar. When the bazaar becomes common it loses its appeal and must be traded in for the more twisted and vile Ok....I can't remember laughing so hard. :lol: Bazaar? Really? I love to go to the bazaar, but I don't see sexual perversion as a quest for it. Nor do I see the bazaar becoming common or losing it's appeal. :lol: So, I'm assuming he means 'bizarre'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Ok....I can't remember laughing so hard. :lol: Bazaar? Really? I love to go to the bazaar, but I don't see sexual perversion as a quest for it. Nor do I see the bazaar becoming common or losing it's appeal. :lol: So, I'm assuming he means 'bizarre'? LOL. Well, if we are going there. I couldn't quite figure out how one would chunk their marriage either. When you chunk a bad marriage, you chunk your lifelong opportunity for God to have manifested his power and glory. Now chuck a bad marriage, I can get behind, but chunk? Huh? :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Ok....I can't remember laughing so hard. :lol: Bazaar? Really? I love to go to the bazaar, but I don't see sexual perversion as a quest for it. Nor do I see the bazaar becoming common or losing it's appeal. :lol: So, I'm assuming he means 'bizarre'? Yeah, that didn't take long.:D I thought about proofreading and correcting errors, but y'know, there's only so much I can do. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 LOL. Well, if we are going there. I couldn't quite figure out how one would chunk their marriage either. Now chuck a bad marriage, I can get behind, but chunk? Huh? :001_huh: Hehe! I might chunk the guy if he molested my child, that's for sure! And I think many marriages end up in chunks, but to actually chunk the marriage? I'm at a loss. :lol: I agree that chucking it would be best. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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