Felony in the Family

[Jean in Newcastle]

Without going into details, a family member has been arrested for a non-violent crime that is still a major felony. The person is out on bail. I have not gone to the hearings and so I don't know all the evidence for or against, but both parents of the individual believe that he is guilty. The suspect says not only that he is not guilty but that it is not a big deal. (The sentence for this crime could be up to 20 years in jail). I'm afraid that whether he is convicted or not, this could tear the family apart. Already there is an issue of how to handle Thanksgiving and/or Christmas if he comes. I doubt there would be a scene but there would definitely be the "elephant in the room" kind of awkwardness - esp. because this isn't a situation where the family all thinks he's innocent and has rallied around him. I think that some of the family (his immediate family) are convinced of his guilt, some (like me) want to see what the judge decides, and a couple of people think he's innocent. But by tacit consent, no one is openly taking sides.

[QueenCat]

Lead by example, love the sinner, not the sin. Treat him the way you would want to be treated. As long as you feel your children are safe, you have the opportunity to show them how to love even when someone has done something wrong.

[Willow]

First of all big hugs. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

this must be so distressing for you and your family, particularly the parents. I will pray for the truth to become clear, and for strength for you, your family and this young person.

 

 

 

I have had no experience of this, but I would feel, as always, it is best to be upfront. (I assume there is no danger of this person being a danger to your family...if this assumption is incorrect please ignore what I am saying!)

 

I would be open and honest. "I'm so sorry this has happened. We will support you whatever the outcome. Do you want to talk? Can we help?"

 

As for the question of innocence verses guilt. I would remain supportive but noncommittal. I would encourage honesty (for obvious reasons) but you don't know if this person is innocent, and may never know.

 

If committed to prison, settle down to 20 years of writing letters.....

[eternalknot]

I don't know the dynamics of your extended family, and I really hope everyone is able to work through this issue with an eye on preserving the family.

 

We've had non-legal issues arise in my family (and my in-laws) that have led to brief interruptions in family harmony. It's always been interesting how differently my family handles it, from how my inlaws do. We are very much obnoxious, in your face, tell it like it is kind of people. We're nosy, always in each others' business, and the kind of family that makes our inlaws sometimes wish they had married orphans. So there will be a small window of time when the elephant is there in the room, but for the most part we take a holiday event (say, Thanksgiving) and we just ruin it. We'll get it all out on the table, arguments will ensue, debates will happen, ... and then when we're done, WE ARE DONE. That's our family culture. We will still have "a side" and still question anyone who disagrees with our stance BUT at the end of the day we can agree to disagree and preserve family harmony. Even if that means sucking it up for later holidays, knowing that nobody in our family is going to exclude someone else purposefully (assuming the relative in question hadn't hurt someone - you said this wasn't that type of crime). The choice is up to us to show up, or not.

 

My inlaws have several warring factions going on, some that pre-date my marriage into the family and some a bit more recent. It literally is breaking up the family - silly things, too, not serious issues. Holidays mean each family sponsors its OWN get-together with approved guest lists, and that's so ridiculous to go to five christmas parties in one week because everyone is acting too childish to attend a single (traditional) party with ALL relatives invited. So we don't go to any of them, lest we get drawn into the drama. Stinks for my kids and parents-in-law. My husband got "in trouble" with his mom for talking to his cousin on Facebook; the cousin's parents. my MIL is feuding with. That family has put personal interests ahead of family unity. It's more important for them to be "right" about someone/something, than it is to work through the issue and stay strong as a family. It's unfortunate.

 

If he comes, put him on the hotseat - once, and one time only. Put everything on the table, let everyone say their piece - including him. And then move on, as a family. I hope it works out for you all.

[Stacie]

First, :grouphug: to your family.

 

I know your post did not ask for advice so I will offer only btdt and what I've done and contemplated.

 

My family member committed a violent act and was no longer welcome at our family events while out on bond before his trial. However, he did admit to his actions and pled to time prior to his trial date. Given that, no one felt comfortable around him, though we do still love him as a child of God and a family member.

 

Had he been in the same situation as your family member, I would be hard-pressed to find a reason to avoid him as long as he didn't seem violent or unstable. Personally I try to see things as character building opportunities with my children, and could see this as a teaching moment...from the standpoints of having character to obey the law, showing love for another human, and for respecting the legal system that says he's innocent until it's proven otherwise. And I'd avoid him and the ensuing family drama as much as humanly possible at these family events. :)

[Liz CA]

Lead by example, love the sinner, not the sin. Treat him the way you would want to be treated. As long as you feel your children are safe, you have the opportunity to show them how to love even when someone has done something wrong.

 

Also, I would add to Cathie's comment that it would be nice if he was assumed innocent until proven guilty, regardless of what one thinks, assumes or is "virtually sure of."

 

Sorry, these scenarios are never easy but an enthusiastic welcome would perhaps get that "elephant in the room" feeling a little minimized. Hopefully, nobody brings it up and Thanksgiving or Christmas can be celebrated for what these holidays are about and not be "a trial by family".

[Jean in Newcastle]

Actually I don't mind getting some advice! Most of my family lives thousands of miles away so I won't see any of them (including this family member) at Thanksgiving or Christmas. But I am in phone contact with many of my family.

 

No, he is not a danger to anyone. He is actually very pleasant and fun to be around. But he's also a pathological liar and even if not convicted of this crime, his habitual lying (even when it doesn't even "matter") has come out for all to see. That much has been proven even if the trial itself has not come to a conclusion.

 

I think that many in the family have lost trust in him. It is hard to see. It is especially hard to see the toll it is taking on his parents. I hate to say it but it hasn't hit me as hard in some ways because since he was a very young child I knew without a shadow of a doubt that he was a pathological liar. I love him and enjoy seeing him at family events but I've never believed a word he's said. I never tried to convince others to not believe him, I just didn't. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?), I've had practice in seeing this kind of behavior in others and it made it easier for me to spot it.

[tdeveson]

Lead by example, love the sinner, not the sin. Treat him the way you would want to be treated. As long as you feel your children are safe, you have the opportunity to show them how to love even when someone has done something wrong.

 

:iagree:

[Aggie]

I'm going against the grain here and it may come across as harsh and judgmental, though I don't intend it that way.:001_smile:

 

There is no way I would hang around this person. As a matter of fact, this is a lesson I teach my children: no one likes to be around a liar. Without trust there can be no relationship, or, at best, a very poor relationship.

 

The trial or judge won't prove his guilt or innocence, will it? It will *determine* it, but not 100% prove it? It's not actually about this particular event anyway, imo.

 

It's his proven character that is the bigger issue.

 

If he'll lie about small things that don't matter, why wouldn't he lie about bigger things? If his character is such that his lying is habitual, why wouldn't he commit other crimes and lie about them? This is a *huge* character issue. If he is grieving his parents by his habitual actions, I can't see where he would honor anyone else he comes in contact with. 'He's not violent' or 'he won't hurt anyone' could be a ruse. His life appears to be a lie, from what I've read and understood here.

 

No. No way would I befriend him or introduce him to my children. Loving the sinner, and believe me...I'm one!, to me, means loving the repentant sinner. We all make mistakes, have moments of poor judgment, do stupid things. But the habit of doing these tells about a person's character.

 

Lying, ime, reaps the same harvest as cheating and stealing. I wouldn't consider a career thief a part of our circle of friends, nor would I have my dc hang around one, no matter how nice, friendly, and loving they are.

 

:grouphug:I'm sorry your family, esp his parents, are going through this. :grouphug:We have felons on dh's side of the family, and it can tear a family apart. All 3 of our felons are on the straight and narrow now with jobs and families and no more (detected) run-ins with the law. They paid their dues to society, as per their sentences, and made full restitution. Just so you know, dh isn't one of the felons. :001_smile:

[Catwoman]

The suspect says not only that he is not guilty but that it is not a big deal. (The sentence for this crime could be up to 20 years in jail).

 

The part that bothers me more than anything is that he doesn't think it's a big deal, and if the possible sentence is up to 20 years in prison, it is most certainly a big deal.

 

I'd be more concerned about his overall character than about this one incident, as it sounds like he has no remorse about the crime, and even if he is innocent, I would think that most people would be ashamed and entirely mortified at having been accused of any kind of crime. The fact that you already know that he's a proven liar doesn't exactly raise my opinion of him, either.

 

Jean, I think you're fortunate to be able to remain somewhat distant from all of this. Your cousin sounds like a pleasant guy, so if you have any contact with him, I would suggest being friendly and casual, and not mentioning anything about the felony charge unless he says something first -- and even then, I don't think I'd do much more than wish him luck and get off the phone.

 

Cat

[Happy]

I'm going against the grain here and it may come across as harsh and judgmental, though I don't intend it that way.:001_smile:

 

There is no way I would hang around this person. As a matter of fact, this is a lesson I teach my children: no one likes to be around a liar. Without trust there can be no relationship, or, at best, a very poor relationship.

 

The trial or judge won't prove his guilt or innocence, will it? It will *determine* it, but not 100% prove it? It's not actually about this particular event anyway, imo.

 

It's his proven character that is the bigger issue.

 

If he'll lie about small things that don't matter, why wouldn't he lie about bigger things? If his character is such that his lying is habitual, why wouldn't he commit other crimes and lie about them? This is a *huge* character issue. If he is grieving his parents by his habitual actions, I can't see where he would honor anyone else he comes in contact with. 'He's not violent' or 'he won't hurt anyone' could be a ruse. His life appears to be a lie, from what I've read and understood here.

 

No. No way would I befriend him or introduce him to my children. Loving the sinner, and believe me...I'm one!, to me, means loving the repentant sinner. We all make mistakes, have moments of poor judgment, do stupid things. But the habit of doing these tells about a person's character.

 

Lying, ime, reaps the same harvest as cheating and stealing. I wouldn't consider a career thief a part of our circle of friends, nor would I have my dc hang around one, no matter how nice, friendly, and loving they are.

 

:grouphug:I'm sorry your family, esp his parents, are going through this. :grouphug:We have felons on dh's side of the family, and it can tear a family apart. All 3 of our felons are on the straight and narrow now with jobs and families and no more (detected) run-ins with the law. They paid their dues to society, as per their sentences, and made full restitution. Just so you know, dh isn't one of the felons. :001_smile:

 

Sigh. So do we push him out of Christian or family fellowship?

 

My son has made some stupid mistakes. One of the bitter truths he has learned is that many (most!) Christians are not willing to love, nurture, and teach. In fact, my son has repeatedly said that Christians push him out and away, even when he is trying to reach out for God and godly fellowship.

 

He says it is much easier to hang around with druggies, tattoo artists, and other 'scum' (his word and tongue in cheek) than the holier than thou, non-forgivers.

 

It's a hard situation, but I see nothing to lose from a loving response to troubled people.

[TravelingChris]

I think the difference here is when there is a change in an attitude/behavior. Our church has a very strong mercy mission and some of the people come to church. I don't know about criminal histories or anything like that but I certainly suspect that some of these people have criminal backgrounds. Do I talk to them- sure. BUt then they aren't attending church or fellowship bragging about exploits or pathologically lying. I am sure I wouldn't want to be so friendly to anyone who was like this. I have even done prison ministries before and I know those people are criminals. The fact that someone did something wrong doesn't disturb me as much as their attitude.

 

On the other hand, even if they have a repentant attitude, I am going to be wary of allowing a certain level of trust so the actions can be repeating. I am thinking of financial crimes where the person had access to funds. If that person misused funds, they should not have a second opportunity. They may be able to help serve coffee but not anything financial. This is just an example but you all get the picture.

[Aggie]

Sigh. So do we push him out of Christian or family fellowship?

 

My son has made some stupid mistakes. One of the bitter truths he has learned is that many (most!) Christians are not willing to love, nurture, and teach. In fact, my son has repeatedly said that Christians push him out and away, even when he is trying to reach out for God and godly fellowship.

 

He says it is much easier to hang around with druggies, tattoo artists, and other 'scum' (his word and tongue in cheek) than the holier than thou, non-forgivers.

 

It's a hard situation, but I see nothing to lose from a loving response to troubled people.

 

It sounds like your son and the man in the op are in different situations. Seeking fellowship and reaching out to God are different than being a pathological liar with no remorse.

 

IMO, a pathological liar, thief, murderer, whathaveyou, isn't pushed out of a family or fellowship. S/he walk out when s/he commits a crime against family or society.

 

If my ds was the man in the op, I would forgive him, but there would be dire consequences to his lying. If I couldn't trust him, I wouldn't want him around my house. Without trust, our relationship would be superficial. Is that a consequence of *my* actions? No.

 

I think by coddling people who don't turn away from wrong, we encourage their behavior. When my 8yods lies, there are consequences. One of those natural consequences is lack of trust. I still love him, of course, but we don't accept that behavior. And...I do forgive.

 

You know, I'm sure it is easier to hang around with druggies if there are no standards of behavior. They may accept and expect illegal activity/actions.

 

I'm sorry your son is having difficulties.:grouphug:

 

yikes...gotta run...

[kalanamak]

But by tacit consent, no one is openly taking sides.

 

Well, if there is going to be an elephant in the room, I'd pack in extra food. Hopefully, anyone unwilling not to stare and point at the elephant will stay home, and the rest of you can be quiet about the elephant.

Edited November 7, 2009 by kalanamak

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, if there is going to be an elephant in the room, I'd pack in extra food. Hopefully, anyone willing not to stare and point at the elephant will stay home, and the rest of you can be quiet about the elephant.

 

LOL! When you put it this way, I could be described as the elephant in the room - quietly packing away that extra food! (I tend to eat when nervous.)

[WTMCassandra]

The part that bothers me more than anything is that he doesn't think it's a big deal, and if the possible sentence is up to 20 years in prison, it is most certainly a big deal.

 

I'd be more concerned about his overall character than about this one incident, as it sounds like he has no remorse about the crime, and even if he is innocent, I would think that most people would be ashamed and entirely mortified at having been accused of any kind of crime. The fact that you already know that he's a proven liar doesn't exactly raise my opinion of him, either.

 

 

:iagree:

 

If he was repentant I would think differently. And if he were not characterized by pathological lying.

 

I would not want my children to be around someone like who you describe for those reasons.

[Liz CA]

Yes, there are different levels of trust. Welcoming someone with a smile does not mean we trust them with everything.

I would certainly not let children be with someone questionable w/o supervision or adults nearby.

 

It is heartbreaking though, that a Christian community (and this does not only happen in a few churches!) is always ready to reject.

 

We can "judge" someone less than trustworthy but we need not reject them.

We can allow interaction and monitor their attitudes and behavior.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'd actually trust him with my kids safety wise much more than another relative who has never gotten into trouble but with whom I have weird "safety vibes" that I can't explain but trust, nonetheless. Having said that, because we live so far away, we would only get together in reunion type situations.

 

I did warn my brother once about not getting into business with him, but was told off in no uncertain terms. I figured in that situation he was warned and was a big enough boy to accept the consequences if he acted anyway. To the best of my knowledge he never did go into business with him so it's a moot point now.

[Kim in Appalachia]

My mom's brother spent a lot of time in and out of prison during his life. I didn't even meet him until I was close to 10. I knew he was just getting out of jail. I believe he was in for a felony. To be very honest, it was never a big deal. I love my uncle, I always have. He never claimed to be innocent (well, he did claim that he was "set up" when he was arrested and back in prison 10 years later.:tongue_smilie:)

 

He always lived with his mom (my grandmom) and I saw him all the time. There was never a lot of tension, at least none that I was aware of. I do know now that his brothers (my other uncles) have a hard time dealing with him. But still, he is family, and that has always been the attitude in my family. If the person is family you accept them, the person, not what that person has done, kwim. Now my uncle was never thought of as unsafe, and we did avoid people on my dad's side who were considered unsafe. We just didn't see them often, but when we did see them it was at family gatherings with lots of people around.

 

Anyway, this is all to say that it doesn't need to be awkward. You don't have to discuss his defense or get into any arguments, you just be together as family.

[Jean in Newcastle]

he is family, and that has always been the attitude in my family. If the person is family you accept them, the person, not what that person has done, kwim. Now my uncle was never thought of as unsafe, and we did avoid people on my dad's side who were considered unsafe. We just didn't see them often, but when we did see them it was at family gatherings with lots of people around.

 

Anyway, this is all to say that it doesn't need to be awkward. You don't have to discuss his defense or get into any arguments, you just be together as family.

 

Lovely perspective, thank you. I will try to gently suggest this to my family who lives near him. And of course I will practice it when I visit too.

[rfhsmom]

:grouphug:

Lead by example, love the sinner, not the sin. Treat him the way you would want to be treated. As long as you feel your children are safe, you have the opportunity to show them how to love even when someone has done something wrong.

 

When we are able to love someone through something like this I think it speaks volumes to our children. Don't they want to know that we are capable of loving them when they make mistakes! We all fall in life, some people's falls are more in the public eye than others, but there really isn't a scale in God's eyes!:grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

Jean, I'm sorry your family has to deal with such an unhappy issue.

 

I have had to make serious decisions in my own extended family context about who we will or will not associate with. Such decisions have been prayed over and thought through, and unfortunately, constantly second-guessed both within myself and by family members.

 

It boils down to risk.

 

One level of risk is in terms of physical or s@xual violence. You have stated that this is not an issue with this individual. If there were risk of this nature, though, that would be an automatic cut-off in the relationship for me.

 

Assuming, though that the person is not a physical or s@xual risk, then the question of risk is much more difficult. The person at least risk would be an adult who is not emotionally tied to the offender--like someone who has married into the family. The person at most risk is a young child who has always known and accepted this person's presence in their life/in the family.

 

I would never, ever leave children unsupervised or in a position of vulnerability with a habitual liar who minimizes his serious problems. There are three levels of risk with such a person: 1) The lying; 2) The habitual nature of the lying; 3) Minimizing.

 

I might consider continuing to associate with such a person if they were dear to me or if I thought there was hope of repentance. Repentance is a key part of the equation, IMHO.

 

One more risk: As a habitual liar, does he present a theft risk to anyone? He may not, but it's a good question to ask. Case in point: I have an uncle whose own father stole his identity and ruined his credit. It wasn't malicious so much as it was totally self-centered.

 

HTH