LCC vs. WTM

[IATeachingMom]

I'm SURE this has been asked before but I searched for it and couldn't quite find what I was looking for. What are the key differences between a:

Latin Centered Curriculum

and the

Well Trained Mind thought/curriculum

 

 

Other than Latin being emphasized much more in LCC (at least that's what I took away from the book)

[Faithr]

LCC is more streamlined and focuses more on learning the classical languages of Latin and Greek. WTM is considered neo-classical in that one of its strongest features is based on studying history in a cyclical fashion. LCC is based on how Ancients and Medieval scholars studied, whereas WTM is heavily influenced by Dorothy Sayers article on the Lost Tools of Learning.

 

Others may add to this or correct me if I am off!

[forty-two]

LCC treats the Trivium as a set of actual subjects to be taught, rather than the WTM approach, which is based on the Sayers essay, of the Trivium as an educational methodology, which can be applied to any subject.

 

LCC is more traditional classical - the book quotes Simmons in Climbing Parnassas that a classical education is "a curriculum grounded upon - if not strictly limited to - Greek, Latin, and the study of the civilizations from which they arose." The main focus in LCC is on Latin, math, composition, and Greek.

 

WTM is more neo-classical. The focus is more on a well-rounded liberal arts education, with an especially strong history component. While it includes the traditional Trivium subjects - Latin, logic, and rhetoric - they are not the core, but are more nice side subjects.

[Trixie]

LCC is more streamlined and focuses more on learning the classical languages of Latin and Greek. WTM is considered neo-classical in that one of its strongest features is based on studying history in a cyclical fashion. LCC is based on how Ancients and Medieval scholars studied, whereas WTM is heavily influenced by Dorothy Sayers article on the Lost Tools of Learning.

 

Others may add to this or correct me if I am off!

 

That sounds pretty good to me. :001_smile: I'd add that LCC is more free-form and forgiving; so if you're a more relaxed hser, LCC may suit your style better. We're unschoolish, and I've found LCC gives us enough structure that my organization-needy self is content but not constrained.

[forty-two]

We're unschoolish, and I've found LCC gives us enough structure that my organization-needy self is content but not constrained.

 

LCC helped me find a good (theoretical) balance between the ideal of classical education as a formative experience and the unschooling ideal that if something is truly necessary, a child can't help but learn it.

 

My current plans (still just theory - see the ages of my kids :tongue_smilie: - but the first plans that truly satisfy both the classical educator and the unschooler in me) are to go straight traditional classical in our "school" times. Our official "subjects" will be Latin, Greek, math, and composition only, and the latter may very well be folded into our language studies if I can get my language skills good enough to do all our writing in Latin and Greek (I can dream, can't I :D). Otherwise we will have a mandatory reading time, and that's it. We will spend the rest of our time striving to live rich, full lives - anything else that is truly necessary to get along in our oh-so-advanced 21st world we will undoubtedly pick up along the way ;).

[katilac]

I will add that I think the two are very compatible; there is little direct contradiction between the two methods. LCC, WTM, and Charlotte Mason can all mesh well together, imo.

 

LCC stresses fewer subjects and resources, but the difference is not huge. The writing programs he recommends include other stuff like grammar, vocab, spelling, so the end result is not that different, imo, from using separate programs for these (as long as you are careful to avoid overlap).

 

I think that LCC is rather ambitious in what they expect of students and home school teachers in classical studies, the readings in particular. I do love the approach of keeping the school reading list very spare - - there are many wonderful kid books that are a joy to read, but they don't have to be part of school.

[happygrrl]

I will add that for children with LD's, the LCC approach can be beneficial. Since moving to LC rec's we have less transition between subjects, and the subjects themselves are approached in a deeper more holistic way. I am the first to admit that this mught be more the result of me hitting my stride as a homeschooler, but I don't want to diminish the impact the LCC philosophy (and schedule) has had on the quality of our experience. When ever we begin to include more/ other WTM suggestions I quickly remember why we are doing LCC.

[IATeachingMom]

Thanks all....I just worry (I don't know why?!) that there wouldn't be enough science? Or is science all absorbed through reading? How does that work out....?

[plimsoll]

My son gets 70-80% of his science by reading and watching videos. He typically reads a bit from some science book every day.

 

We are currently using books by John Hudson Tiner for some science topics. We have also used off-the-shelf science workbooks from Barnes & Nobles and tried the Science Detective series from Critical Thinking Company. We use the library extensively for short, age-appropriate books on many scientific topics.

 

We are fortunate in that our local zoo and museums offer homeschool classes. If this is not available, you may be able to schedule zoo and museum trips on your own.

 

When the time comes age-wise, you may want to get some hands-on stuff - a chemistry set, a microscope and prepared slides, an electrical circuit kit - whatever. You can still do these things - it's just not necessary to do them every day or write detailed scientific logs after every experiment.

 

Be creative. We get plenty of history and science in. They're just not our "core" subjects and we do them more for fun and in a lighthearted way, i.e., no tests, drills, memorization, etc.

Edited October 1, 2009 by plimsoll

[Jayne J]

I recently "converted";) to LCC here as well, and my biggest concern was the same--science. Wouldn't we be missing out? I have since started to implement the "multum non multa" concept to our current plans (to avoid ditching our current year's plans) and have found that science really takes care of itself. We limit what we do, but really focus on it. We are working our way through "One Small Square: Backyard" very slowly. We stop and dig things up. We walk around our neighborhood and pick up interesting bits to bring home and study. We have found nut trees and apple trees to gather from this way (after asking pemission of course!) We are collecting fall leaves and looking them up to find out what kinds of trees are in our neighborhood, making leaf rubbings, gathering acorns, etc. It is all very gentle, but has really deepened our knowledge of local flora and fauna. Slip in a few science based read-alouds, some science videos, and I feel like we are learning quite a bit.

 

That said, my oldest is only 6, and the science rotation for high schoolers looked a bit uninspiring in LCC. So, when we get there, we might be doing a bit of re-vamping. However at that point, we will have a much clearer picture of what each child really needs to focus on (a future engineer may not need to spend as much time on biology as a future vet...)

[elegantlion]

I will add that for children with LD's, the LCC approach can be beneficial. Since moving to LC rec's we have less transition between subjects, and the subjects themselves are approached in a deeper more holistic way. I am the first to admit that this mught be more the result of me hitting my stride as a homeschooler, but I don't want to diminish the impact the LCC philosophy (and schedule) has had on the quality of our experience. When ever we begin to include more/ other WTM suggestions I quickly remember why we are doing LCC.

 

:iagree: My son is mildly dyslexic and does much better when we focus on fewer subjects. Latin has been a real blessing for him.

 

Thanks all....I just worry (I don't know why?!) that there wouldn't be enough science? Or is science all absorbed through reading? How does that work out....?

 

My son is also very science oriented. We tend to add in more science and our science sequence overall will look different from LCC. However, focusing on the LCC approach gives us more time to do that. He usually has some science project of his own happening.

[Trixie]

We are fortunate in that our local zoo and museums offer homeschool classes. If this is not available, you may be able to schedule zoo and museum trips on your own.

 

When the time comes age-wise, you may want to get some hands-on stuff - a chemistry set, a microscope and prepared slides, an electrical circuit kit - whatever. You can still do these things - it's just not necessary to do them every day or write detailed scientific logs after every experiment.

 

Be creative. We get plenty of history and science in. They're just not our "core" subjects and we do them more for fun and in a lighthearted way, i.e., no tests, drills, memorization, etc.

 

Yes, this is our situation, as well. Getting/"doing" enough science has never been an issue. In fact, I believe that taking a more relaxed (even unschoolish) approach actually facilitates scientific learning. I've recently been wrestling with the idea of finding a chemistry curriculum that I like and finally gave up, realizing that what we're already doing works beautifully--ds is learning and enjoying himself. So I gave myself a good smack in the head and reminded myself that if it ain't broke .... ;)

[Tabrett]

So...

 

What does a typical day for first or second grade LCC look like?

[MariannNOVA]

So...

 

What does a typical day for first or second grade LCC look like?

 

Yahoo groups has an LCC group -- they just had a thread on what a typical day looks like. You might check out the group and see if you can access the thread without joining - OR join and read up on what's going on there.

 

We just switched to LCC -- it is less wear and tear on me, my three kids will tell anyone who asks that they love it. Finally, I feel as if this is why I decided to homeschool. :001_smile:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Yahoo groups has an LCC group -- they just had a thread on what a typical day looks like. You might check out the group and see if you can access the thread without joining - OR join and read up on what's going on there.

 

 

I did not know that. Thank-you for mentioning it. I'm joining first thing tomorrow. :D

[IATeachingMom]

What does everyone do for K/1st/2nd Language Arts? IEW? It sounds like WT is for older as it Aesop/Homer.... all that starts about 3rd grade or so?

[lovemykids]

Oh great, now I want to read about LCC. :001_huh: Although I think we have "hit our stride" as homeschoolers and it probably doesn't matter what books I read, I'll continue to do what we have been doing. ;)

 

So if you use LCC philosophy, does that mean you have to teach greek?

 

:lurk5:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

For K we are continuing working through our phonics primer and our copy work is simply learning to form letters at this point. I am actually adding a little FLL1 as well since it's so gentle, highly recommended by friends and non time consuming that I couldn't think of a reason not to. :) Oh, and possibly reading the recommended literature (Mother Goose, Nursery Tales, Aesop's Fables in K).

 

The plan is to add Latin in 2nd and then add CW in third as per the LCC recommendation. Parent selected copy work is recommended until then rather than any specific curriculum and although I am tempted to buy a curriculum anyway I am sincerely hoping I won't. :)

 

ETA I fibbed, unintentionally. LCC does mention a couple of recommendations for copybooks if you would prefer a pick-up-and-teach kind of thing rather than having to select copy work yourself.

Edited October 10, 2009 by RecumbentHeart

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

 

So if you use LCC philosophy, does that mean you have to teach greek?

 

:lurk5:

 

If you're "pure" LCC, yes :D I'm curious how many actually are though. LCC schedules Greek to begin in 6th grade if I recall correctly. My DH has already studied Greek and was intending for us to teach it even before I converted to LCC. :tongue_smilie:Before reading LCC I was skeptical about us being able to pull it off though.

 

ETA, seriously, has anyone here taught both Latin and Greek, all pure LCC style? I want to do it, intend to, but would love to hear from someone who has already forged the trail that is really not as daunting as it first sounds. lol

Edited October 10, 2009 by RecumbentHeart

[elegantlion]

Oh great, now I want to read about LCC. :001_huh: Although I think we have "hit our stride" as homeschoolers and it probably doesn't matter what books I read, I'll continue to do what we have been doing. ;)

 

So if you use LCC philosophy, does that mean you have to teach greek?

 

:lurk5:

 

You don't have to, no one will twist your arm. ;) This is our 2nd year using LCC and I wanted to start with EG this year. However due to my son's minor dyslexia the different alphabet was very frustrating to him. We have opted to hold off on Greek for a few years, maybe until high school.

 

We did complete the Greek Alphabet Code Cracker last year. I think an introduction to Greek via the alphabet and/or a roots program would be an acceptable minimum.

[SonshineLearner]

SO, I had our year planned out with LCC (on paper), and each time I saw something "fun" I'd go back and look at the LCC....but when I started... "wow" you actually have to have the books..... (Science,,,history.... etc...) She's in 6th.... and some of them.... aren't enough! We're only in week 4... so still time to pack on more.... I have to say, I would have purchase a packaged "6th grade, minus Greek" package.

How do I make even the easiest.... Hard??

[PollyOR]

Though I like both the 1st and 2nd editions of LCC, I have found the recommendations in the first to be less overwhelming. Pgs. 197 and 207 in the 2nd edition have sample schedules that show how simple it can be. When I start getting stressed, I look at those pages. I feel like if I can get to Latin, math, and composition then everything else will be icing on the cake.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Though I like both the 1st and 2nd editions of LCC, I have found the recommendations in the first to be less overwhelming. Pgs. 197 and 207 in the 2nd edition have sample schedules that show how simple it can be. When I start getting stressed, I look at those pages. I feel like if I can get to Latin, math, and composition then everything else will be icing on the cake.

 

This is how I'm trying to think. I get so tempted by so many things and quickly forget - "much, not many". I keep getting "much" and "many" confused and start thinking I'm not getting "much" if I don't have "many". I will go mark those pages and take your advice.

[Faithr]

I too find the 1st ed of LCC more doable, to the point where I gave away my 2nd edition and am just keeping the 1st.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

What are the major differences between the 2?

[OnTheBrink]

If you're "pure" LCC, yes :D I'm curious how many actually are though. LCC schedules Greek to begin in 6th grade if I recall correctly. My DH has already studied Greek and was intending for us to teach it even before I converted to LCC. :tongue_smilie:Before reading LCC I was skeptical about us being able to pull it off though.

 

ETA, seriously, has anyone here taught both Latin and Greek, all pure LCC style? I want to do it, intend to, but would love to hear from someone who has already forged the trail that is really not as daunting as it first sounds. lol

 

We're doing Latin, Greek AND French. And no, it's really not that daunting. :001_smile:

 

We're using Bluedorn's Greek Alphabetarian and Huppogrammon, William Linney's Getting Started With Latin and MP's First Start French. My dd is flying through learning the Greek alphabet and loves it. We do about 20ish minutes of Latin a day and one lesson a week of the French (she asked to learn French; otherwise, I'd not have included it). She has never confused either language but has started noticing connections between Latin roots and some French words, so it's meshing nicely.

 

It's rare for me to do anything exactly as written ;) , but I do like LCC for my dd better than WTM. WTM worked well for my son, but they're different people with different interests and LCC is just a better fit for dd.

[PollyOR]

Here's a thread you might be interested in about LCC2.

 

If you scroll down this page, you'll see a list of topics that were added.

[Sasha]

If you're "pure" LCC, yes :D I'm curious how many actually are though. LCC schedules Greek to begin in 6th grade if I recall correctly. My DH has already studied Greek and was intending for us to teach it even before I converted to LCC. :tongue_smilie:Before reading LCC I was skeptical about us being able to pull it off though.

 

ETA, seriously, has anyone here taught both Latin and Greek, all pure LCC style? I want to do it, intend to, but would love to hear from someone who has already forged the trail that is really not as daunting as it first sounds. lol

 

It's actually not that daunting. We used "Hey Andrew, Teach Me Some Greek!" to get the alphabet.

 

We did drop Greek, however, because we speak Russian and they were really getting overwhelmed trying to keep the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets seperate (to make things more confusing, there are some letters in Russian that look like English letters but make completely different sounds).

 

As for science, my interpretation of LCC is that you don't *not* do science, you just don't schedule a bunch of arbitrary science stuff during science 'hour'. I'm thinking about the part where it's talking about how one curriculum had a bunch of books scheduled for one year and that, with LCC, a child still had time to read those books but they just weren't *scheduled*.

 

I took that to mean that you can still certainly fill up your days with living science books, expirements, and other science-y goodness but those are during your free time, not scheduled into school.

 

That might seem like semantics, and I might be reading LCC wrong, but that's how I read it. I remember when I was a kid in school and we really wanted to learn about dinosaurs. Our teacher wouldn't teach us about dinosaurs because we just had to get through the life cycle of a bug (or something). There was no flexibility.

 

Not quite delight-driven, but not overly scheduled either.

 

But then I've had a *lot* of coffee this morning and might not be making any sense at all. :P

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I'm thankful to hear from others that it's doable and not daunting. :D And thanks Polly for the links - I appreciate it!

 

What does everyone do for K/1st/2nd Language Arts? IEW? It sounds like WT is for older as it Aesop/Homer.... all that starts about 3rd grade or so?

 

I JUST saw a post on the yahoo group of someone asking about WT1&2 for 3rd and 4th instead of CW-Aesop. Are you a member of the yahoo group? I haven't been for long but it really does look like it might be helpful. Just a thought. I am entirely unfamiliar with WT and IEW but it looks like you're right about WT being for older grades (3+).

Edited October 11, 2009 by RecumbentHeart

[FairProspects]

Alright, I just ordered the original edition too, since I am so intrigued by the multi-track history idea. I agree that the 2nd edition can be confusing at times and I have read through it now multiple times. I'm hoping maybe between the two I can get to one solid, simplified program!