Saxon

[selh09]

Hi,

 

I'm new to this forum....well I've been reading for about 3 months and decided to join:)

 

My dd is 4.5 and we are using Saxon K and it seems to be very easy for her. I was wondering if any of you that have used Saxon, have you supplemented with another curriculum? I'm not looking to supplement until Saxon 1 if Saxon 1 ends up being easy for my dd.

 

Thanks for any input...

Julie

[Chris in VA]

I always used Saxon a year ahead--Judomom does, too, and I know others do.

I did supplement with one Singapore Earlybird book and part of another. I ended up going only with Saxon, and it's been a good fit for us. I know some pull the Singapore "story problems" book in for extra work (sorry, "story problems" is what we called them when I was a kid! Can't think of the right name)

 

However, my thoughts on it are that

just because something is easy and pleasant for a child doesn't mean they need to be challenged--it's ok for some things to be easy!

[LinRTX]

In kindergarten, I did the first half of Saxon 2 and supplemented with Miquon. The two seemed to work well together.

 

(I think the first half of 2 is like Saxon 1 to some degree. I had always used something else for K and went to Saxon 2 for 1st grade. But what I had always used for K was no longer available so I just made do--we were starting college expenses with my oldest and I still had expensive high school stuff to buy for the next so not much money to spend at the time. This ended up working just fine.)

 

Linda

[Moni]

We do math facts only first, then the first math Book is Math 54.

Clocks, rulers, thermometers, and calendars are re-taught in Math 54

 

Actually are taught in Math 54, they were added to Saxon Math K, 1,2 3, which wasn't written by Mr. Saxon and were written by a different author and added do the publisher's offerings later on. I suppose it takes Math 54 and stretches it into four years in order to .... bide time until students learn their math facts and are ready for Math 54 (?)

 

I suppose if you want to "do math daily" for 720 school days before Math 54, the four earlier books serve a purpose.

 

We just do math facts only first, then start with Math 54.

 

It depends on your goals, of course ;)

:seeya:

Edited September 8, 2009 by Moni

[Meriwether]

When my daughter was 4, we did Saxon 1. It wasn't too hard for her, but on almost every page they had to do one problem where they drew 6 pencils or 8 books or 7 apples, etc. My daughter was able to read the problems herself and do the work, but her fine motor skills were shaky. Those problems where she had to draw took a loooong time and were frustrating. If I had it to do over again, I still would have done Saxon 1 but would have used tiny stickers for those problem.

[JudoMom]

I always used Saxon a year ahead--Judomom does, too, and I know others do.

I did supplement with one Singapore Earlybird book and part of another. I ended up going only with Saxon, and it's been a good fit for us. I know some pull the Singapore "story problems" book in for extra work (sorry, "story problems" is what we called them when I was a kid! Can't think of the right name)

 

However, my thoughts on it are that

just because something is easy and pleasant for a child doesn't mean they need to be challenged--it's ok for some things to be easy!

 

Yep--I use K loosely in the 3.5-4.5 year old range, and then start Saxon 1 around 4.5-5. We supplement with Evan-Moor's Daily Word Problems.

[Orthodox6]

We supplemented to the extent of tossing Saxon and selecting programs which we felt were better. My best attempt at a "conciliatory" observation is that Saxon K-3 is astonishingly bad, but quality improves beginning with 5/4 (the 4th grade text).

 

 

 

Hi,

 

I'm new to this forum....well I've been reading for about 3 months and decided to join:)

 

My dd is 4.5 and we are using Saxon K and it seems to be very easy for her. I was wondering if any of you that have used Saxon, have you supplemented with another curriculum? I'm not looking to supplement until Saxon 1 if Saxon 1 ends up being easy for my dd.

 

Thanks for any input...

Julie

[s.z.ichigo]

My daughter was 5 when we started Saxon K, but it only took a few months to get through. It was so easy and fun for her that we did 2 or 3 lessons per day and then started in with 1st grade. Ypours may be a bit young for a full 1st grade load but moving quickly through K and on to Saxon 1 wouldn't hurt, as long as it continues to be easy. Saxon does gets to be a fair amount of writing and drawing as the year progresses.

[Chris in VA]

Hi Orthodox 6--Just wondering about your comment that Saxon 1-3 is bad--could you pm me to tell me your thoughts on this?

Don't want to stir any pots this am, but intrigued by the emphatic language here! lol

[Moni]

that Saxon 1-3l

 

We don't use the Saxon K, 1, 2, 3 either.

Our first math book is Math 54.

We spend a year before that doing Math Facts, all of them.

That's all they need for Math 54

Clocks, rulers, calendars, and thermometers are all taught from scratch in Math 54 anyway :glare:

 

:seeya:

[creekmom]

We don't use the Saxon K, 1, 2, 3 either.

Our first math book is Math 54.

We spend a year before that doing Math Facts, all of them.

That's all they need for Math 54

Clocks, rulers, calendars, and thermometers are all taught from scratch in Math 54 anyway :glare:

 

:seeya:

 

What grade will your child be in when he/she starts the math 5/4 book?

[phathui5]

We started supplementing with Singapore in 1st grade, then switched over entirely.

[JudoMom]

We supplemented to the extent of tossing Saxon and selecting programs which we felt were better. My best attempt at a "conciliatory" observation is that Saxon K-3 is astonishingly bad, but quality improves beginning with 5/4 (the 4th grade text).

 

I'm curious about the observations that lead you to think K-3 is astonishingly bad--can you let us in on what you found :001_smile:?

[EKS]

We supplemented to the extent of tossing Saxon and selecting programs which we felt were better. My best attempt at a "conciliatory" observation is that Saxon K-3 is astonishingly bad, but quality improves beginning with 5/4 (the 4th grade text).

 

This would be my observation as well. But I would add that in our family, Saxon at all levels (and I've used 2-8/7) seemed to produce math students that were absolutely unable to think mathematically. In fact, for my younger child I broke down and decided to try Saxon after he became frustrated in Singapore. After about half of the book I saw him actually *stop* thinking. If an answer wasn't immediately obvious to him he would shut down and be "unable" to proceed. This behavior was in striking contrast to how things were with Singapore with him. We switched to Singapore and haven't looked back.

[JudoMom]

This would be my observation as well. But I would add that in our family, Saxon at all levels (and I've used 2-8/7) seemed to produce math students that were absolutely unable to think mathematically. In fact, for my younger child I broke down and decided to try Saxon after he became frustrated in Singapore. After about half of the book I saw him actually *stop* thinking. If an answer wasn't immediately obvious to him he would shut down and be "unable" to proceed. This behavior was in striking contrast to how things were with Singapore with him. We switched to Singapore and haven't looked back.

 

Why do you think that is? I'm genuinely curious. It's all we've used (my oldest is in 7/6), and I haven't found that to be the case. I do supplement with extra word problems. They all love math and seem to do well with it. But I'm not a "math-y" person, and wonder if I'm missing something big.

[EKS]

Why do you think that is? I'm genuinely curious. It's all we've used (my oldest is in 7/6), and I haven't found that to be the case. I do supplement with extra word problems. They all love math and seem to do well with it. But I'm not a "math-y" person, and wonder if I'm missing something big.

 

In my younger son's case, this is what I think was happening. First, with all the repetition, he perceived that the vast majority of the problems were easy so when he came up against something "new" he just shut down instead of trying to work it out. One reason for this could be because Saxon's basic approach to learning math isn't teaching true problem solving; it is to drill many different problem types so much that it *seems* like the student can solve problems, when in fact, they're simply performing by rote.

 

In my older son's case, I discovered halfway through 7/6 (after having used from 2 on) that he really did not understand the concepts behind the procedures he was performing. He did not understand place value at all. And he was "successful" with the program as he got 90+% on the tests. The structure of the program made it possible for him to seem successful (because the consistent practice with the procedures) even though he had a fundamental misunderstanding about our number system.

[Orthodox6]

Chris, since others seem curious about my strong viewpoint, I guess I'll reply within the thread.

 

To extend fairness toward Saxon K-3, I have not looked at those books since fall of 1995, our first semester of homeschooling. At that time, almost nothing, for most school subjects, was on the market, easily discoverable, for new homeschoolers apart from ABeka, BJUP, Calvert, and a tiny handful of other vendors. Everybody we met/read lauded Saxon math, so I bought the sets for grades 1 and 3.

 

The robotic monologues assigned to the teacher aggravated me and seemed insulting to any parent's ability to teach such low-level math topics. The subject matter, including the grade 3 content, struck me as suitable for pre-school through kindergarten. Admittedly, my boys had just completed kindergarten and 2nd grade, respectively, at a superior Montessori school. My "comparison yardstick", thus, might be deemed "bent". I was annoyed, the boys were bored . . . and we tossed the jumble after two weeks.

 

Perhaps the product has been improved since then [?].

 

I am first-hand familiar with every other Saxon math level except for the "advanced math" textbook, their calculus text, their physics text, and their newly-published geometry textbook.

 

Although I very much agree with the "spiral method" of teaching math, Saxon drops the ball when introducing any new topic. The topic is discussed, and an absurdly tiny -- and [the crux here] insufficient -- quantity of practice problems for the new concept are provided. The student must wait 24 hours before seeing this new material again. One of my sons articulated this problem himself, and begged never to use Saxon math again.

 

My other insurmountable objection to Saxon remains the poor-quality of the explainations. I won't be able to provide specific examples, because I would have to go wade back through the various textbooks to do so. As a teacher, however, time and time again I would reassure my sons that they were NOT stupid or dense, but that the textbook simply did not explain the concept either accurately or usably. I would "x through" chunks of a lesson, and teach the concept myself -- with the result that my sons understood the material, once liberated from the Saxon "style."

 

Of the two sons cited, one is math "quick", the other has to work hard at math. The third son, the one attending an outside school, scores horribly on the annual standardized tests -- quite possibly owing to his lesser ability in math, but undoubtedly owing also to the poor teaching he receives from a poor math program.

 

[That's it, folks ! :) ]

 

P.S. Also, every time that I compared Saxon one-to-one with a math textbook from another vendor, Saxon ended up with a "cover title" 1 to 1-1/2 years higher than the grade level material actually covered within the textbook. The only other program I have found, which is equally "dishonest" with grade labels, is Teaching Textbooks. (which program I am using, by choice, with my dd who has math LDs severe enough that I am grateful for ANYTHING which seems to work for her)

Edited September 9, 2009 by Orthodox6

[Moni]

What grade will your child be in when he/she starts the math 5/4 book?

 

Whenever they learn their math facts, all of time, plus, minus times, and divide.

 

Math facts only -- all of them -- can be a good 1st grade math option.

Start Math 54 in 2nd grade.

 

Unless you have a 2nd grader who doesn't know all the math facts, then do math facts in 2nd until they are all learned, and then start Math 54 whenever she masters her facts, likely about 6, 9, 12 months later.

 

Then again you might have a 3rd grader who doesn't know all the math facts, then do math facts in 3nd until they are all learned, and then start Math 54 whenever she masters her facts, likely about 6 or 9 months later.

 

Unless you have a kindergartner, in which case if she isn't up and reading, reading more, reading 3 times a day, then I would do that only.

 

No math before turning age 6, and then math facts only first.

 

:seeya:

[selh09]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I realize that math is very subjective and it comes down to how your child learns. My dd is 4 and she LOVES math, it's because of the manipulatives. :) I am not a *mathy* person and struggled with math all through school (and ended up hating math), so I do not want that for either of my children so, I want to find a program that is fun, but that will *teach* math concepts (if that makes sense :))

Thanks again for everyone's input!!

[Heather in WI]

I know you (the OP) just posted, but I wanted to let you know that my boys all have started Saxon 1 at 4 1/2 and loved it. If you wanted to skip ahead to Saxon 1, that wouldn't be unheard of. :-)

[cathmom]

I would have to agree, IME, that Saxon doesn't teach children to think or to problem solve. I have used most of their levels from 1 to Advanced Mathematics. My oldest used Saxon from 76 through Advanced Math. My second child started with 1 and quit with 54. My third child got through 1 and half of 2 before I stopped using it with her. It was horrible for her learning style!

 

None of the children who have used Saxon like math at all. The second and third children are unable to problem solve. The third has a real math phobia that Saxon contributed to. I will never use Saxon with any of my dc again.

 

I switched the second and third dc to Math U See (despite the fact that I loathe and detest the title!). My younger ones will use Right Start until it ends and then switch to MUS.

[coffeegal]

How intriguing. I adore Saxon Math (1, and 54 on up), but I don't expect it to teach my children how to think. That's my job. ;) Oops, I think it came out badly. I expect my math program to drill my children in how to do math. I don't want them thinking about the mechanics of how to solve a problem, but rather have it so ingrained that it's instinctive. Saxon does a wonderful job of doing this. It's incrimental in its teaching, so my children are often able to intuit what's being taught. When reading the lesson, I enjoy pointing out to my children where the nugget being taught is headed and why it's important.

 

As far as learning to think and problem solve, I prefer to use puzzles. We have several puzzle books hanging around the house, and my husband, children, and I enjoy bantering around with puzzles while in the car.

 

The Saxon math books from 54 on up are great. K is super easy, all my children have enjoyed 1, 2 is okay, but Saxon 3 irritates me like crazy and I don't know why. :confused: I've actually started most of my children on 54 before they know their multiplication facts. We end up starting the book over a time or two, but they've all done fine in the end. :D

[MissKNG]

I use Critical Thinking Company math books to supplement Singapore math for my dd. I love CTC stuff!

[Shelly in the Country]

First, with all the repetition, he perceived that the vast majority of the problems were easy so when he came up against something "new" he just shut down instead of trying to work it out. One reason for this could be because Saxon's basic approach to learning math isn't teaching true problem solving; it is to drill many different problem types so much that it *seems* like the student can solve problems, when in fact, they're simply performing by rote.

 

 

I don't have any commentary to add on Saxon's elementary series, but my dh was homeschooled in high school using Saxon math and this is his assessment of the program. He told me Saxon "catechises" kids in math instead of teaching problem solving/mathematical thinking. Dh is very "mathy" and he managed to come out of Saxon ok in the end. "Mathy" kids can probably function well with almost any program since they can intuit the problem solving without direct instruction and practice. BUT, dh didn't want me using Saxon with our kids because of his experience with the program. We use Singapore.

[Macrina]

Oh bother. Just when I think I've got it all figured out you guys have to go and mess with my head. Gee thanks! lol! Back to the drawing board I guess!

[s.z.ichigo]

People fall into two distinct groups with Saxon. They either love it or despise it. I haven't had hardfly any of the problems with the k-3 series that other people seem to have.

 

Whenever they learn their math facts, all of time, plus, minus times, and divide.

.....

No math before turning age 6, and then math facts only first.

 

:seeya:

 

 

I am intrigued by this idea, though. Learning the math facts does seem to be the core of Saxon k-3. I can see focusing on that only and not introducing the other things (calendars, measuring, etc) until later, or just separately and not part of "formal" math. It would sure make math a lot less complex and would probably help them learn the facts only, which is so important.

How would you get pst what seems to be a common complaint with Saxon? That being that it just teaches them to memorize processes and doesn't teach them the "why" of math. Seems like just teaching the facts would be nothing more than memorization. Maybe it takes a mathy person to do that...I am not one in the slightest.

I do like the idea though.

[Guest Barb B]

I never used saxon before 4rth grade - we liked abeka then. For 4rth grade up I didn't have problems with it. As far as problem solving - I love their warm up for that - incorporate mental math and some problem solving. Also, really - kids really do need review of previous stuff or they won't remember it. Back to problem solving - here I teach kids to attempt all problems. It is my job to make sure they try every problem and to even model problem solving. Not trying to solve newer problems could really happen with any math text. Another thought is - it is great that there are a variety of math texts out there because each child learns differently! What is good for one, may not be good for another. Some kids thrive on saxon, others need a different approach. For the higher grades (algebra 1 and 2 and advanced math) I wouldn't use anything else bu saxon. They simpley need that repition to prepare them for SAT/ACT. Great preparation for the SAT (you do need to be 1/2 way through Adv. Math before you take the SAT though). My ds had saxon for alegebra on up and did very well on SAT. My daughter has used saxon since 4rth or 5th grade and does well with it. As I started though - I like abeka for the younger grade - then I switch to Saxon for 4rth or 5th (for some reason later for ds).

Barb

Edited September 9, 2009 by Barb B

[Nan in Mass]

With my middle son, learning the math by rote wasn't a bad idea, since he came out of public school a mass of misconceptions. One year of it gave him confidence and helped him to remember the basics. But then I realized that he still couldn't apply any of the math to real life, even though he was doing very well with the Saxon problems. His older brother did Saxon algebra and then found he couldn't do the different math program at his public high school the following year. I don't know what happened with the older one, but I think the problem with the younger one was that Saxon chops math into many tiny bits which you then have to be able to put back together to really understand the concept. My son happens to be the sort of person who couldn't put those pieces together again. The disconcerting part was that both sons seemed to be doing well in math. Backing way up in Singapore "fixed" my middle one. My older one still is struggling his way through math, when it should come easily to him; that sort of thing usually does. He says he keeps coming across holes, either from the two years he used Saxon or from forgetting quite a lot during a three year gap between high school and college (during which he thought he didn't want to go to engineering school, partly because of his problems with math - sigh). I realize this post sounds very negative and I am sorry. I just think you have to be careful with Saxon. It works very well with some kinds of people, but there are a few for whom it definately doesn't work and it might not be easy to see that. I would just check carefully to make sure your child isn't one of that sort.

 

-Nan