Curious question for the ultra secular people ...

[Veritaserum]

I am grateful that there is no statement of faith at the TWTM message boards.:) I find it disheartening when I find statements of faith in homeschool groups since there are many flavors of Christianity and various religions. IMHO I think it better to leave religious education to the parents and to the particular faith a person subscribes to. I personally would like to see homeschool groups that instead find a common denominator such as a statement of educational goals and expected behavior/rules.

 

In regards to secular educational materials, I like them for all educational subjects except religion so that I can taylor religious education to my liking.;) I think this is why many, not all, do prefer secular materials.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

:iagree:

[EKS]

I'm *not* anti-Christian; I just don't want to use Christian resources in our homeschool. I come here because most of the other people on these boards are trying to educate their children the way I am, that is, rigorously.

 

The reason my children are getting an excellent education is because of these boards. My older son can read because of what I learned from the folks at the Special Needs board. I am absolutely grateful to SWB for providing this space and to everyone here for making it such a vibrant community dedicated to rigorous homeschooling. I have never found another community like it, IRL or online.

[TravelingChris]

I don't think you would have any idea that a physics or chemistry book is written by a person who believes in God unless they choose to inform you about that. You obviously would choose to ignore many science writings. THere is a huge difference between belief in a young Earth and a belief that God ordained the universe. I am not sure how you would find that out unless you were doing Google searches on them and somehow found they attend church or something like that. I can completely understand a secular person not wishing to have a Christian text but to say that you don't want a secular science text simply because it was written by a Christian or Muslim or someone of some other faith who believes God created the world just smacks me of intolerance.

[KidsHappen]

"without relegious references.... " can't be done although we as a culture pat ourselves on the back for a successful job.

 

Every aspect of morality and dealing with issues involving the world, neighborhood or family have a ROOT in relegion. We like to pick & chose which we prefer... but without the relegions pointing us to these issues... we are without an anchor and make horrific decisions. (or we just chose one relegions view over another and mask it in secularism).

 

This post has the potential to derail an already potentially explosive thread.

 

Are you saying that there were no morals, no codes of morality, no law and order in civilizations before religion? As far as I know the Code of Hammurabi is entirely secular and predates even Mosaic law. And there were a couple of well known civilizations that predate Ancient Babylonia. Surely, in order for a civilization for function is had to have some morality and code of law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi

 

Many secular people take great offense when it is suggested that we have no morals or that our morals must have root in religion. Most that I have spoken to will tell you that their morals are inate and come from within without any need for a book, or person or God (depending on our own particular beliefs) to tell us what they are.

Edited July 26, 2009 by KidsHappen

[KingM]

Non-Christians take great offense when it is suggested that we have no morals or that our morals must have root in religion. Most that I have spoken to will tell you that their morals are inate and come from within without any need for a book, or person or God to tell us what they are.

 

And if you believed that, then surely you'd be terrified to set foot in Japan or Sweden, since these are some of the least religious countries. In reality, of course, these are some of the safest places on earth.

[emmsmama]

Many secular people take great offense when it is suggested that we have no morals or that our morals must have root in religion. Most that I have spoken to will tell you that their morals are inate and come from within without any need for a book, or person or God (depending on our own particular beliefs) to tell us what they are.

 

I don't take offense to it, but I certainly shake my head in bewilderment when people imply that you can't have morals without religion. Maybe they can't have morals without religion, but I certainly can, and so can my family. I'm not part of any organized religion, but I'm not anti religion, and I even find religious discussions interesting and sometimes enlightening :)

 

As to why I come to this board even though I am not Christian, I come because it is an amazing resource for homeschooling parents. This board is always hopping with information about homeschooling, homeschooling curriculum, and even parenting. I also love that there is a huge variety of schooling styles represented on this board. The majority of people take a classical approach, but a lot of people on this board take a very ecclectic approach to homeschooling and so I've gleaned a ton of great information from others about what works well in their families and what doesn't; as a result I've been able to implement or avoid things in my family as well.

[KidsHappen]

And if you believed that, then surely you'd be terrified to set foot in Japan or Sweden, since these are some of the least religious countries. In reality, of course, these are some of the safest places on earth.

 

 

:confused: I can't tell if your response is to me or the pp. I was arguing that religion is not neccessary to a civilized and safe society. It seems that your statement is in agreement with this sentiment. Yes?

[Barb_]

:confused: I can't tell if your response is to me or the pp. I was arguing that religion is not neccessary to a civilized and safe society. It seems that your statement is in agreement with this sentiment. Yes?

 

I read it as being a backup to your post, in response to Dirtroad.

 

Barb

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I was on another board recently, and someone asked about Susan's beliefs and another poster responded by saying that Susan is not a Christian and she presented Susan's beliefs about certain issues, as evidence that she's not a Christian. I was floored because I've read Susan's books, I've been on this board forever, I read her blog... I've never heard/read her discuss such issues. But, she's "not a Christian" and this person knew all about it somehow.

 

You know, at this point I shouldn't be surprised by this kind of thing. But I still am. Or maybe "appalled" would be a better word.

 

Sure, you can critique someone's words, or actions; those things are public. But to make assumptions about someone's inner life? About their motivations and their spiritual pursuits? To pass judgment on someone's spiritual state and beliefs? Based only on what you see online?

 

I would say: how un-Christlike. Actually I think Christ is the only person qualified to do that. The rest of us should keep our mouths shut. :-)

 

SWB

[Audrey]

I've noticed that a few people on this board are very against anything that has to do with God or Christianity. Why then do you choose to post on and read a board that was started by an author who says in an article she resently wrote "It's true that as parents we are made in the image of God..."? Isn't this board going against something you very strongly believe?

 

I seriously am just curious. It doesn't make any sense to me. I have nothing against people who aren't Christians being here. I just wonder why the adamantly anti-Christian people come here at all.

 

 

I don't think your question comes across as "curious" at all. "Instigating" would be the word I would use. I don't see any statement of faith in the board guidelines, and I have never, ever seen Susan say, or even remotely imply, certain groups of people were not welcome.

 

Maybe I come here for the 1,001 curricula recommendations a day. Maybe I come here for crock-pot recipes. Maybe I come here for the dizzying array of discussion topics. Maybe I come here to hang with the other pagans/heathens/witches/atheists who chill here, too. Maybe I come here just to p*ss off people like you.

 

The point is, no matter WHY I (or people like me) come here, Susan's let us play in her yard despite our difference. So, unless you're the new membership moderator, your "curious" question would better be served addressed to the actual moderators -- or you might actually get someone telling you what they REALLY think. ;)

[nmoira]

I've noticed that a few people on this board are very against anything that has to do with God or Christianity. Why then do you choose to post on and read a board that was started by an author who says in an article she resently wrote "It's true that as parents we are made in the image of God..."? Isn't this board going against something you very strongly believe?

Are there differences between being secular, ultra secular, and being against anything to do with God or Christianity? Do you also wonder about those whose religion is something other than Christianity?

 

I'm not sure where I fit. I am atheist, but I don't know the difference between secular and ultra-secular and I am not being against Christianity per se. To answer your question as best I can: If being on this board required a statement of faith, it would indeed go against something I very strongly believe (and limit membership such that there would no longer be anything for me here). I am here because this is a high traffic board in line with my general educational philosophy and because there's plenty of discussion to be had on secular homeschooling issues and curricula.

[stansclan89]

I used to always come here to get a secular suggestion for curriculum (3-4 yrs ago). It was the only place I knew of that I could say that I don't want religious slants thrown in with what I teach my kids and others agreed. I've been wondering what happened to those people? I miss them. :crying:

 

TWTM has always had pretty much secular suggestions...

[Luanne]

did I say that this is only a Christian board. This board is open to all people regardless of their beliefs. That is what makes this such a cool place to come. You can get all kinds of points of view here. I don't know of any other place online (or anywhere else for that matter) that this is true.

 

I also mentioned that this was in regard to another thread I read where one of the people responding seemed very much against anything that had to do with God or Christians. I TRULY was just curious why this person (or any other people like them that I hadn't noticed yet) would choose to come to a board that accepts all beliefs. I thought maybe someone here could give me some insight without my having to confront the person who put this question in my mind.

 

In answer to someone else's post, I do not feel comfortable PMing this person since most people I have come across in life that are that set in how they feel, don't care about what other people think unless they are in agreement with them.

 

As far as the "ultra" secular thing ... I couldn't think of how to put it. I knew other Christians may not be able to answer my question and I didn't think I should say "anti-Christian" people so I went with "ultra" secular.

[secular_mom]

I also mentioned that this was in regard to another thread I read where one of the people responding seemed very much against anything that had to do with God or Christians. I TRULY was just curious why this person (or any other people like them that I hadn't noticed yet) would choose to come to a board that accepts all beliefs.

 

 

Because they want to. :) Just because you don't agree with someone's beliefs, that doesn't mean you do not want to discuss your/their beliefs.

[Stacia]

I TRULY was just curious why this person (or any other people like them that I hadn't noticed yet) would choose to come to a board that accepts all beliefs.

 

:confused:

 

I'm confused. The first half of your sentence seems to be in direct opposition to the second half of your sentence. If the board accepts all beliefs, then what's the problem or question? Wouldn't everyone be welcome?

 

Seems to me that there really shouldn't be a question or issue at all.

[Saille]

I agree with KidsHappen that I've learned more about Christianity here than anywhere else.

 

However, I come for WTM homeschooling community, plain and simple.

 

That said, many Christians I meet lack appropriate boundaries. I think it's largely attributable to the fact that Christianity is the dominant religious culture in our nation today. When most of the people around you (all, if you're heavily immersed in your church community) are doing what you're doing, it's altogether too easy to be mortally presumptuous, discriminatory, or just plain rude to someone who's "different". If the only real result of my presence here is that folks become aware of some paradigm besides their own, that's still, in my opinion, a good thing.

 

I'm fairly insistent on secular curricula, not because I'm opposed to my children learning about Christianity, but because there's a difference between learning about something and being slowly indoctrinated. Normalizing Christianity as the unspoken, but nonetheless dominant culture in our homeschool makes no sense to me. We're non-Christian UU's, and that's absolutely the right place for us. Our religious background is reflected in our made-by-me copybooks, our history studies, even our me-chosen CW samples. So I do and will continue to ask about CC in curricular materials. At our house, it's an important consideration.

[Barb_]

I TRULY was just curious why this person (or any other people like them that I hadn't noticed yet) would choose to come to a board that accepts all beliefs. I thought maybe someone here could give me some insight without my having to confront the person who put this question in my mind.

 

In answer to someone else's post, I do not feel comfortable PMing this person since most people I have come across in life that are that set in how they feel, don't care about what other people think unless they are in agreement with them.

 

Curiosity does not mean confrontation. If you are truly curious, then by definition you seek to listen and learn; your motive is not to confront nor to tell someone what you think. If curiosity is truly your motive, then you shouldn't be afraid to ask questions of that person directly. If you aren't willing to stand up and ask your question directly, I would say maybe it's better left unasked.

 

Barb

[Dirtroad]

I do.

 

I think morality comes to us as an evolutionary adaptation.

Some quickies with more on that view:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/morality-originates-in-re_b_185217.html

 

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1412,An-Atheist-Responds,Christopher-Hitchens

 

And some vids:

Christopher Hitchens on the morals of an atheist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjhL1xlkt5U (part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VraeYsXQHAg&feature=related (part 2)

 

As to why atheists come here, it's the best place I've found yet to learn about resources, even though I use almost entirely secular materials.

 

And I don't think the WTM is a religious book at all - though I do disregard sections of the book which deal with discipline or parenting for instance.

 

And to me there's a huge difference between reading a Christian author's book about education (SWB's WTM), or watching a Catholic nun's videos about western art (Sister Wendy) and using a science curriculum written by someone who believes in ID or young earth creationism (just a random example :001_smile:)

The first 2 are completely fine, the third is out of the question.

 

Ah, but we will never agree b/c I am a Ken Ham disciple & 100% agree with young-earth creationist (do not think everything is by an accidental combination of random events that proceeded to develop into such complexities that they can't be reproduced) & I think Dawkins is a con artist. (just explaining myself, not implying anything). So, we will never agree. ;)

 

Please understand, I do not mean the books are relegious... Just influenced in right/wrong presented in sentences, stories, descriptions, etc. I also think it is great to be in a group with so many different interests, views, and experiences. Some "lessons" that are shared, I will never adapt or understand... but some are powerful. Lots of good stuff! I don't like fluffy boards that avoid everything & really never discuss anything but recipes & lesson plans.

 

Ah, but my comments are getting far away from OP. Sorry.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Dirtroad]

..... I come here because most of the other people on these boards are trying to educate their children the way I am, that is, rigorously...... I am absolutely grateful to SWB for providing this space and to everyone here for making it such a vibrant community dedicated to rigorous homeschooling. I have never found another community like it, IRL or online.

 

:iagree: Awesome way to word it!

[Dirtroad]

And if you believed that, then surely you'd be terrified to set foot in Japan or Sweden, since these are some of the least religious countries. In reality, of course, these are some of the safest places on earth.

 

I do not mean they all must attend church or even do. I mean the basic rules in a culture often have deep roots in the relegion of that region. I can't comment on Sweden, but Japan has a long history of relegion. It is a relegion of patience and self discipline for example. However, don't forget.. it also use to be a very brutal society & changed greatly since WWII.

 

Also, I do not mean Christianity. I used it as an example b/c the US culture is most heavily influenced by it. I didn't pick it as the only one or top dog in the fight. So many seem to think it is the only relegion to which I am meaning.

 

I also believe "relegion" has been here since creation or the beginning of man. That could be our difference - right at the base.

 

I do not mean that atheist, secular/non-relegion, or any other group have to be relegious or should they be insulted if they aren't. I was only speaking in regards to general culture (which greatly influences our world daily) and tried to use MURDER as an example. Very wrong here... very good there.

 

I wish I were better with words.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Dirtroad]

I don't take offense to it, but I certainly shake my head in bewilderment when people imply that you can't have morals without religion. Maybe they can't have morals without religion, but I certainly can, and so can my family. I'm not part of any organized religion, but I'm not anti religion, and I even find religious discussions interesting and sometimes enlightening :).

 

 

That was NOT said or implied. Please read my last post & maybe I did better at explaining. Everyone has morals... good or bad. My point was their influence or origin.. not existance. If you live in the USA, you are influenced (in law, contracts, cultural norms, etc) by a Christian culture... you dont' have to be one or even like one or have ever seen one.

 

I do not think we are good & sweet (we have proven ourselves too well in history) and I do think relegion influences are culture and what is viewed as right & wrong.

 

I do not think that every individual in that culture has to be of a particular relegion to be influenced by their surrounding culture. I do not see how it can be escaped. I have friends in India & Haiti... we are all of the same faith... however, our cultures have different prevailing relegions that influence us greatly. We see it in our discussions & views... even though we are of the same relegion today... our societies are not.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dirtroad

[BillieBoy]

I've noticed that a few people on this board are very against anything that has to do with God or Christianity. Why then do you choose to post on and read a board that was started by an author who says in an article she resently wrote "It's true that as parents we are made in the image of God..."? Isn't this board going against something you very strongly believe?

 

I seriously am just curious. It doesn't make any sense to me. I have nothing against people who aren't Christians being here. I just wonder why the adamantly anti-Christian people come here at all.

 

First let me say I am not Christian. Second if I have ever came across as "Anti-Christian" it was in a direct response to someone telling me I was wrong for my beliefs. Purely defensive. However I am not anti Christian, I am anti bigotry and in my eyes that applies to people who think, act upon and preach intolerance.

 

I follow the WTM secularly and believe in SWB's pedagogy, regardless of her personal beliefs. For all I know she likes tomatoes and I don't; hopefully that wont influence what I take from her methodology.

 

I come here looking for advice from those with similar HS interests. Sometimes I may even have something valid to say from my own experiences. I have been lurking on these boards for four years. Then the tone on this board was most decisively Christian. So much so I literally was afraid to ask questions about secular curriculum. Now there seems to be more representation from many view points, and to me that just can't be wrong. I feel a lot more comfortable posting and asking questions now.

 

But because of this post should I again feel unwelcome?

[Susan Wise Bauer]

No.