It's been a while, & I have another math question...

[Aubrey]

Short Version: I've started taking grades on ds's math (he's 8), to get a beat on where he is, how he's doing, how much he depends on me. I almost got a teaching job at a private sch for the fall, & placement was some of the reason behind this.

 

I'm not going to be teaching--still hs'ing--but his grades are concerning me. On daily assignments, for ex, he'll score between 60-75%. Tests are worse. When we go over it, he knows the stuff, for the most part. He's just...careless.

 

I've always been nervous about his math because he's so far ahead & we really don't spend the time on it we should. I'm never sure if we're going too fast or slow or pushing too hard or not expecting enough, or what he knows vs what *I* think he knows, kwim?

 

He doesn't test well--I know that for sure. He's barely ever taken tests, & he approaches them as a social thing, somehow. Like it's a get-to-know-you questionnaire, lol.

 

So I guess my question is...how do I guage where he really is? How do I know if we should supplement w/ something else, extra practice, a different program, or if we should just keep at it?

 

Fwiw, we're using Singapore, & he's about 1/2 way thr level 4B. He's not doing well w/ decimals, but it's only because he won't slow down enough to pay attention to place value. In the past, he's made more mistakes when he was bored, so I'm sort-of thinking that could be the case now, but...I don't want to just keep dragging him thr stuff if he's really not getting it. How do you KNOW?

 

TIA!

[Anne]

First, welcome back, Aubrey - I've missed you!!

 

About the math, maybe you could ask him why he thinks he's not getting more correct. If he says he knows it and is bored, tell him you need to see that. Let him know if he gets a certain percentage correct on his daily work (I'd shoot for 90-95%), then you can move him along, but if not, he'll need to continue to do the work.

 

If he says he doesn't understand, then you know he needs some additional help.

 

If he is just being careless, then I would be sure that he revisits most of his careless errors. But also, offer him rewards for papers done well the first time. Look for ways to positively reinforce good work. Maybe brag on him to his dad when he does well. Let him "overhear" you telling someone what good work he did that day..

 

Hope something helps here!

 

Anne

[kpupg]

FWIW, my kids have both gone through bad carelessness phases.

 

I make them work problems out loud, and on paper while I watch. This tells me whether they understand what they're doing. If they really don't understand something, we back up/slow down/whatever seems necessary.

 

But when the problem is obvious carelessness -- arithmetic errors, most commonly -- then I make them redo until correct -- however long that takes. Some days, it takes all day :(

 

Then I get to do the lecture circuit -- "it would only have taken 15 minutes if you had paid attention to the arithmetic computations ... blah blah blah." And I get Dad in on the lecture circuit, too. After he tells them the same thing, sometimes they actually believe me. LOL

 

Some hope for the future, perhaps ... ds14 is now doing official high school work, for which I have to keep his "permanent record" looking toward college admissions ... which means assigning permanent grades ... which means he is suddenly not making any arithmetic errors any more -- hallelujah it's a miracle! LOL

 

Bottom line for my experience -- it's a habit of attitude, and it will take a long time to really get through to a kid ... well, at least to my kids. And in my kids' case, self-interest is a big factor.

 

Courage,

Karen

[joannqn]

My kids have to redo any missed problems on the weekend, and I remind them that if they slow down and do it right the first time, they wouldn't be sitting there redoing them. Usually, they'll get them right the second time. If they don't, we go over it together. It's usually pretty easy to tell if they understand the work when we go over it together...with them walking me through the problem on the white board.

[Mommy22alyns]

Feel free to disregard me, since I have younger kids and my own fair share of math problems! ;)

 

But my thought is, maybe try another program - if he's at decimals, why not check out Life of Fred? Maybe that will catch his interest enough to correct the carelessness and you don't have to abandon Singapore entirely if you don't want to. Or you could, if LOF works out better.

 

I know when Becca has been completely careless, it's been because she has been bored. And I know that doesn't help much in math - if you don't know that they KNOW how to do it, then they can't skip it!

 

In any event, don't disregard this - it's great to see you back! :001_smile:

[zaichiki]

I have a different perspective. I see computation mistakes as just mistakes. As long as the kids understand how to solve the problem, mistakes are no biggie. I usually ask that ds/dd go back and find their mistakes. Maybe it was just careless, but if it was, I still want them to see how they made that mistake. I want to them to prove to themselves that they CAN get the right answer. In the end, if I've seen them do 5 of one type of problem correctly, but one includes a computation/careless error, I don't sweat it. We skip the other 12 identical problems and go on to the next lesson.

[Heather in WI]

Hi Aubrey!

 

My son went through a similar thing when we hit decimals in Singapore 4b. Our house rule is that if they get less than an 80% on an assignment, they have to do it over. No ifs, ands, or buts. I don't lecture about it -- in fact, we can get rather melodramatic and silly about it at times. Sometimes we make jokes about how mommy just really feels the need to decorate their papers with red circles. :-)

 

I would check his paper immediately after he completes it and have him correct it the same day. I wouldn't want him to move on to harder problems before I made sure he understood it and could demonstrate consistently that he understood it.

[Aubrey]

Hi Aubrey!

 

My son went through a similar thing when we hit decimals in Singapore 4b. Our house rule is that if they get less than an 80% on an assignment, they have to do it over. No ifs, ands, or buts. I don't lecture about it -- in fact, we can get rather melodramatic and silly about it at times. Sometimes we make jokes about how mommy just really feels the need to decorate their papers with red circles. :-)

 

I would check his paper immediately after he completes it and have him correct it the same day. I wouldn't want him to move on to harder problems before I made sure he understood it and could demonstrate consistently that he understood it.

 

This makes sense. I've been checking his work, & having him correct missed problems the same day or the day after. Are you saying you'd make him redo the whole page? Do you make them hand-copy the problems, or do they erase & reuse the book?

 

He spent an hr on corrections today (I think it took longer because I've got a cold, & I was less on top of things), so we skipped today's lesson. The "aha" moment is kind-of coming & going right now.

 

But it's not just decimals. He took a Saxon placement test (here at home, informally) for the school (you know, in case it became an issue). By my guesstimates, he should have placed at LEAST in the 5th g level--based on what we've covered, what he really gets, & what he's careless at. I was really expecting closer to 7th.

 

But after a ridiculously long time, he'd only scored high enough for 3rd/4th. (Can't remember which.) When we went over it together, he did understand most of what he'd missed. I don't know. I think he just got tired. But I'm really baffled. I mean, if that's where he is, that's great! He's on target! But...I'm pretty sure if I backed him up & put him in a 3rd g level book, he'd gnaw his own arm off, kwim? I just wish I could be a little surer of myself (& him).

[AK_Mom4]

I had to break the Saxon placement tests into several pieces for my DD8 - it was just too long for her. We did them across 3 days in 15 minutes blocks and it went much better.

[Aubrey]

I had to break the Saxon placement tests into several pieces for my DD8 - it was just too long for her. We did them across 3 days in 15 minutes blocks and it went much better.

 

That's a great idea! I'm so impatient--it's hard for me to break things up, lol.

[Heather in WI]

I'm sorry you're not feeling well.

 

Are you saying you'd make him redo the whole page?

 

Oh, No! Just the incorrect problems.

 

Do you make them hand-copy the problems, or do they erase & reuse the book?

 

They just erase and re-use the book.

 

He spent an hr on corrections today (I think it took longer because I've got a cold, & I was less on top of things), so we skipped today's lesson. The "aha" moment is kind-of coming & going right now.

 

That seems like an awful long time if it was just carelessness.

 

But it's not just decimals. He took a Saxon placement test (here at home, informally) for the school (you know, in case it became an issue). By my guesstimates, he should have placed at LEAST in the 5th g level--based on what we've covered, what he really gets, & what he's careless at. I was really expecting closer to 7th.

 

But after a ridiculously long time, he'd only scored high enough for 3rd/4th. (Can't remember which.) When we went over it together, he did understand most of what he'd missed. I don't know. I think he just got tired. But I'm really baffled. I mean, if that's where he is, that's great! He's on target! But...I'm pretty sure if I backed him up & put him in a 3rd g level book, he'd gnaw his own arm off, kwim? I just wish I could be a little surer of myself (& him).

 

Gosh I don't know what to tell you. This is just my .02, but for my own child, I would stop right where you are and start reviewing concepts. To begin, I would grab the Singapore 3a book (since that's where the Saxon test placed him) and start with either the reviews (workbook) or practices (textbook). My sons much prefer the reviews {grin} because of the writing involved in the practices. I would have them complete one a day. Higher than 80% = move on to next practice/review. Lower than 80% = start there with the actual lessons. Does that make sense?

[Aubrey]

I'm sorry you're not feeling well.

 

 

 

Gosh I don't know what to tell you. This is just my .02, but for my own child, I would stop right where you are and start reviewing concepts. To begin, I would grab the Singapore 3a book (since that's where the Saxon test placed him) and start with either the reviews (workbook) or practices (textbook). My sons much prefer the reviews {grin} because of the writing involved in the practices. I would have them complete one a day. Higher than 80% = move on to next practice/review. Lower than 80% = start there with the actual lessons. Does that make sense?

 

Yep, that makes perfect sense. Today was just a really super off day, & the Saxon placement doesn't really correlate w/ Singapore, but I think I might do a Singapore placement, 15 min or so at a time, like pp said, & then follow your ideas here. If nothing else, I think it will give me some peace of mind. Maybe VBS last week threw us for a bigger loop than I thought. Or maybe we're really plowing through stuff he doesn't know.

 

Thanks, everybody!

[8filltheheart]

Hi Aubrey,

 

I would take those careless errors more seriously than others seem to. My personal view is that those errors reflect the fact that he hasn't mastered the concept. Careless errors that reflect scores in the upper 80s+ is one thing. Errors in the 50s/60s is another.

 

I don't let my kids progress until proficiency, regardless of whether or not they can fix it after being shown it is wrong.

 

These younger yrs are the foundation of everything ahead. And, ultimately, just where are you going when you get there? It is where I am right now! My ds is ahead, but I'm just not sure where we are going to go with it! I am having him spend lots of time doing Art of Problem Solving books just to challenge in breadth in addition to working his way up

 

One option you might want to consider is using a more traditional type math approach along with Singapore and see if it solidifies his arithematic.

[Starr]

My ds can't stand to look at a page of math problems. He quite cheerfully takes the whole day thinking thoughts. :tongue_smilie: It goes better if he only looks at a couple of problems on a page. Sometimes I've even written them out for him. Sometimes I think I should have done math in short spurts twice a day but what a pain. It works best for him to do a problem. I check it and if it's wrong have him "fix" it. Not to worry this is still going on at 13. Yikes. Well it is a little better. He enjoys figuring things out but doesn't like to take the time to do basic math. You might not want to push things too far ahead until he really masters the basics with accuracy and speed. He has plenty of time to move on. Just a few thoughts as I look back on our math journey.

[KAR120C]

I've always been nervous about his math because he's so far ahead & we really don't spend the time on it we should.

This jumped out at me.... How much time do you spend on it? I may be missing the boat altogether of course, but if you really aren't spending "enough" time on it, that might be just what he needs. Being good at math (or gifted at math) doesn't mean he doesn't need instruction, or practice. With my DS, sometimes what he needs to do with a new topic is to (orally or in writing) explain it back to me, in detail. Usually more detail than he does in the first try. Much more. Sometimes much much more. ("What's the null hypothesis?" "Nothing!" :glare:) But once he has explained it well, he knows it well.

 

If decimals are a problem right now, you could have him stop, back up to the beginning of the unit, relearn it from the start, and try having him explain the concepts and processes as you re-work... including "double-check the place value" as a step in the process. I'd be particularly hesitant to let place value problems slip - even just careless ones - when you're doing decimals. There really isn't anything to decimals but place value, and being careful with it really is a big part of the lesson.

 

Hope this helps!

[katilac]

I'm not going to be teaching--still hs'ing--but his grades are concerning me. On daily assignments, for ex, he'll score between 60-75%. Tests are worse. When we go over it, he knows the stuff, for the most part. He's just...careless.

 

I've always been nervous about his math because he's so far ahead & we really don't spend the time on it we should. I'm never sure if we're going too fast or slow or pushing too hard or not expecting enough, or what he knows vs what *I* think he knows, kwim?

 

He doesn't test well--I know that for sure. He's barely ever taken tests, & he approaches them as a social thing, somehow. Like it's a get-to-know-you questionnaire, lol.

 

So I guess my question is...how do I guage where he really is? How do I know if we should supplement w/ something else, extra practice, a different program, or if we should just keep at it?

 

Fwiw, we're using Singapore, & he's about 1/2 way thr level 4B. He's not doing well w/ decimals, but it's only because he won't slow down enough to pay attention to place value. In the past, he's made more mistakes when he was bored, so I'm sort-of thinking that could be the case now, but...I don't want to just keep dragging him thr stuff if he's really not getting it. How do you KNOW?

 

TIA!

 

It is possible that he's bored and needs to move ahead, but it's also possible that he's moved ahead too quickly already, and doesn't have a solid understanding.

 

To check his understanding, you can try giving him a short set of problems each day, say five to eight, rather than the complete exercise. If he can consistently get the problems correct in a smaller set, then great, he gets it and you can keep moving forward.

 

If he cannot complete a short set of problems with accuracy, then he's not ready for the work, imo.

 

The other thing I might try is to make sure that he is doing the work at a desk or table, with me nearby. Some kids tend to dawdle, daydream, and get off track if they go off on their own to do the work.

 

There's a difference between a child seeming to understand a concept in discussion, and a child being able to actually do the work. When you go over the errors, and he seems to understand, you need to make sure that you're not 'leading' him - - if he can't explain it and find his errors WITHOUT your input, then he's not understanding it.

 

I'm all for accelerating a student when indicated, but I would be extremely wary about moving a student ahead with those kinds of daily scores. No, I don't want to hold a child back because of occasional careless errors, but they should be exactly that, occasional.

 

Teaching a student to be careful and attentive in math is very important, imo. If my kids scores less than 94% on a lesson, they rework all missed problems. Less than 90%, they rework all missed problems plus a new problem for each one missed. Less than 80%, redo the lesson.

 

What we need to keep in mind is that there is a vast difference between a student grasping a concept in discussion, and a student being able to apply that concept in his daily work.

 

You may find that your son needs to back up a bit in terms of his daily work and practice, but that doesn't have to mean that interesting and above-level math concepts and topics are off limits. He can certainly explore those while working at a different level, or you could choose to have him take time off from formal math for a bit, but I wouldn't continue as is.

 

edited because I wanted to add that we have used Singapore for several years, through level 5, so I am familiar with it.

Edited July 12, 2009 by katilac

[AnitaMcC]

We expect our kids to put their best effort in everything they do. Their best will not be the same every day as they are human... but they should put forth their best effort even if the results one day could be a 100% and another day a 90%. I look at the average.... if they are putting forth an effort that results consistently below 80% grades.... then there is a problem and it could either be they don't understand a concept or they are truly not putting forth their best effort.

 

My opinion is that consistent careless mistakes are less than best effort (and this is noticable by them fixing their mistakes quickly after they get their papers back). So if they don't get at least a 85% on an assignment (especially math as a solid foundation is needed before going on) then they will repeat the whole section and do more problems. I tell my kids to do it right the first time or they will have to keep doing it until they get it right... this is in everything they do. If I suspect that it is them slacking off then they get a lecture... something they hate. If I suspect that they are truly struggling and doing their best then we search for a solution together.

[Aubrey]

This jumped out at me.... How much time do you spend on it? I may be missing the boat altogether of course, but if you really aren't spending "enough" time on it, that might be just what he needs. Being good at math (or gifted at math) doesn't mean he doesn't need instruction, or practice. With my DS, sometimes what he needs to do with a new topic is to (orally or in writing) explain it back to me, in detail. Usually more detail than he does in the first try. Much more. Sometimes much much more. ("What's the null hypothesis?" "Nothing!" :glare:) But once he has explained it well, he knows it well.

 

If decimals are a problem right now, you could have him stop, back up to the beginning of the unit, relearn it from the start, and try having him explain the concepts and processes as you re-work... including "double-check the place value" as a step in the process. I'd be particularly hesitant to let place value problems slip - even just careless ones - when you're doing decimals. There really isn't anything to decimals but place value, and being careful with it really is a big part of the lesson.

 

Hope this helps!

 

We haven't intentionally spent less time on math--it's really been school altogether. The last two years have brought two babies, besides a storm of other things. Consistency would be really much better for him, I'm sure.

[Aubrey]

Well, I gave him several placement tests last week, using various combinations of the methods y'all suggested, and he kept getting 60-70% right, no matter how far back I went. He'd do a whole set of problems perfectly, and on the last one, transpose 71 for 17, and then the math would come out wrong.

 

Another time, he wrote half the answer to a word problem but forgot to follow through--a multi-step problem, where you have to subtract and then divide and then something else. He did all but the last step, where you simply subtract the number you've figured from the original number supplied.

 

Anyway, I'd decided to lay off the tests and workbooks and everything for a month or so and just go over some basic place value, multiplication facts, and test-taking skills & try again before our new year starts in Sept. He's just been...off. Tired, making too many mistakes, I don't know. The kind of thing that makes you step back and look at everything and wonder if your kids shouldn't be in school, you know?

 

About that time, all four of them broke out in spots and fevers, and they haven't been up off the sofa since. So, um, I'm thinking last week's results are questionable, to say the least, lol.

[AnitaMcC]

Well, I gave him several placement tests last week, using various combinations of the methods y'all suggested, and he kept getting 60-70% right, no matter how far back I went. He'd do a whole set of problems perfectly, and on the last one, transpose 71 for 17, and then the math would come out wrong.

 

Another time, he wrote half the answer to a word problem but forgot to follow through--a multi-step problem, where you have to subtract and then divide and then something else. He did all but the last step, where you simply subtract the number you've figured from the original number supplied.

 

Anyway, I'd decided to lay off the tests and workbooks and everything for a month or so and just go over some basic place value, multiplication facts, and test-taking skills & try again before our new year starts in Sept. He's just been...off. Tired, making too many mistakes, I don't know. The kind of thing that makes you step back and look at everything and wonder if your kids shouldn't be in school, you know?

 

About that time, all four of them broke out in spots and fevers, and they haven't been up off the sofa since. So, um, I'm thinking last week's results are questionable, to say the least, lol.

 

Yikes... I hope all are feeling better fast!!!!!!!! I would definitely say that not feeling well would be a reason for lower test scores that you were expecting. My older son often shows signs for about a week of being "off' (academics and behavior) and then he is very sick the next week. So when I see he is not with it for 3+ days in a row I pretty much know what to expect-LOL. When he is just not feeling well, hungry, tired, etc. then he struggles so much on academics because he just can't focus other than on how his body is feeling.

[katilac]

Well, I gave him several placement tests last week, using various combinations of the methods y'all suggested, and he kept getting 60-70% right, no matter how far back I went. He'd do a whole set of problems perfectly, and on the last one, transpose 71 for 17, and then the math would come out wrong.

 

Another time, he wrote half the answer to a word problem but forgot to follow through--a multi-step problem, where you have to subtract and then divide and then something else. He did all but the last step, where you simply subtract the number you've figured from the original number supplied.

 

Anyway, I'd decided to lay off the tests and workbooks and everything for a month or so and just go over some basic place value, multiplication facts, and test-taking skills & try again before our new year starts in Sept. He's just been...off. Tired, making too many mistakes, I don't know. The kind of thing that makes you step back and look at everything and wonder if your kids shouldn't be in school, you know?

 

About that time, all four of them broke out in spots and fevers, and they haven't been up off the sofa since. So, um, I'm thinking last week's results are questionable, to say the least, lol.

 

I think that's an excellent idea. You might even consider a complete break of at least two weeks or so - - sometimes kids get into negative patterns that are hard to break; it can be easier when you start fresh.

 

Remember, kids hit walls and get confused in school as well ;)