Custody question (not for me, honest)

[profmom]

A friend has had her husband served in Oklahoma. She tries to never leave the kids with him because she is concerned how they will be treated. He isn't physically abusive, though, only emotionally, which seems so hard to prove. He has sent her what he would like to see for custody -- 120 days with him. He's so uninvolved now that this seems crazy, but she's been told it's really tough and expensive to try to get sole custody.

 

Are her only choices 120 days or fight for sole custody? What is the standard amount of time for the non-custodial parent to have with the kids? I thought I read 70-90 days was standard in one of my Google searches, but I can't find that now. She does have an attorney, and I keep telling her not to verbally agree to anything with her husband without talking to the attorney. I think she is trying to minimize her contact with the attorney to save money though. Plus, the husband is getting advice from a guy at work and keeps wanting her to agree on things with him.

 

Can you guys help me let her know what options she has? The kids are 11, 10, & 7.

 

(I'm happily married and promise this isn't for me!)

[Elizabeth Conley]

Which 120 days is he asking for? Does he plan to handle all of the logistics of transportation to and from her home?

 

120 days pretty much subsumes every single school holiday. (This presumes they're enrolled in school.)

 

Ask the mother to consider the realities of what 120 days would mean. Is it practical? Is it fair to the mother? (If she gets no school vacation time with the kids, that doesn't sound fair to me!)

 

If they live in the same town, it might be a good idea for Dad to take them for some school weeks. Being a single parent is very, very hard. Over time, most custodial parents complain that the noncustodial parent gets to be "Mr. Fun", while the custodial parent is forced to act like a drill sergeant. If Dad wants to be a major player in the kids lives, it's appropriate to expect him to be more than "Mr. Fun".

 

I realize money is an issue, but the mother would be wise to communicate with the soon to be ex with great caution. If she were more affluent, I'd suggest she use the lawyer almost exclusively. She should keep it minimal, and commit to little or nothing. She needs to communicate with him about the kids, but she would be wise to make that communication in writing via registered mail. She needs records of what she has communicated to him. She needs to be able to prove that she has communicated with him in an appropriate fashion. She also needs a clear record of what she has said. If at all possible, she should maintain a clear record of what he has said also.

 

I do not advocate divorce. It's a mess. If she's set on this course, she needs to understand that it's going to get rough, particularly where child custody is concerned. If she considers him emotionally abusive now, she should brace herself. "You ain't seen nothin' yet!" Emotional abusers are usually very sneaky, and will do just about anything to "win". The underlying mental problems that cause a man to be emotionally abusive permit nothing less than total victory.

[Danestress]

so it's hard to say what is "typical." It's not unusual for a non custodial parent to get every other weekend and weeks here and there in the summer or on holidays. It's also not unusual for a couple to share time with the children almost 50/50. I would consider 120 a reasonable request if they live close enough that transportation is not a huge issue. But she certainly could try to get less than that. Sole custody? Not likely unless she has some pretty strong evidence of the allegations of emotional abuse.

 

I don't know much about Oklahoma law, but I do have a friend who divorced in Oklahoma and she told me that the judges in Tulsa tend to really want to maximize the time children have with each parent. Her arrangement is almost 50/50 on paper, even though she was the SAH parent and there were some serious concerns about his drinking.

 

She needs to just work with her lawyer and stop hashing it out with her ex unless she really thinks that's likely to be productive. Her attorney can advise her on how she might want to proceed. A lot of times judges are very hard on women who try to keep children away from their fathers. It's perceived as being controlling and trying to alienate children from the other parent, and it's a good way to come out with an onerous order. You have to understand that judges are constantly hearing that "Mom is insane" or "Dad is emotionally abusive" from the other parent. But if she has really good proof of emotional abuse, that's different. Her attorney can advice her on the likelihood that she will prevail under different strategies.

 

If there are things that really bother her about visitation, she can try to either get an agreement or an order that protect the children from things that concern her. For example, she could ask that he be prohibited from drinking when the children are with him, if alcohol has triggered his behaviors or that he take parenting classes if she's concerned about inappropriate discipline. She may or may not be successful, but she might want to talk to her attorney about what her real concerns are and whether those can be addressed some other way than, "I don't want them with him."

[SonshineLearner]

If she lives close enough to be practical, I suggest (every other) Thursday to him taking the kids to "school" on Mondays and then also remember that there are many Monday holidays. (so remember that for childcare and such...)

That leaves them having 16 days for the summer, if you have to get up to that "120" number. Otherwise, I'd try to do the Thursday to 5pm on Sunday.... or something like that....(cutting back when you could)

I took care of some children, in MI that had this arrangement. He'd come pick them up on Thursday night...(every other week) and then take them to school on Mondays....

It gets away from so many summer days....(When you really want your children:-)

Carrie:-)

PS< is she homeschooling?

[HeatherLynn]

It would depend on state law but I do know the only time a judge will do 50/50 split on days of possession is if they live in the same town. However, if the Mom moves to avoid this, she may lose primary and be moved to managing. Judges don't like it when people try to get out of things by rearranging.

 

Are her children old enough to express their wants? That pulls a lot of weight.

 

Unless a father is proven "unfit", usually the parents get joint custody anyhow. However, it is just like the old fashioned "sole custody" where the one parent gets every other weekend, some holidays, a month in the summer, and one night a week.

 

Sole custody is almost unheard of anywhere. I do know a movement away from the split custody (6months/6months) has been noted. It has proven to be disruptive.

 

If this woman has a good attorney I suggest she talk to them about this. They should know. Also, if there is a lawyer in town she does NOT want to go up against, she needs to schedule a consultation with them because then they are barred from representing her ex (ask me how I know, my ex did that).

[Tiff in TX]

I am going through a custody 'battle' currently and can only offer what I know from experience.

 

My first advice is to be mindful of little ears. Make sure your friend is keeping her comments about her husband to herself, her adult family and her attorney. If the judge does talk to the older children, he won't like it if he thinks the kids have been coached or 'brainwashed'. My daughter is still young and I don't allow anyone to speak harshly about her father in front of her.

 

As for visitation, if they are in the same town, dad will typically get one night a week and the 1st 3rd and 5th weekend of the month and two weeks in the summer. She can request for no over nights, but it might not be granted since the kids are older. My daughter does not have overnights with her father and does not get two weeks in the summer. I don't know how it would work if they aren't in the same town.

 

Are they doing mediation or are they going directly before a judge? I would imagine that the judge will take the children's wants into consideration and speak with them, but I don't know for sure.

 

Best of luck to your friend, I will be praying for her and her children.

[profmom]

Thanks for your help! To answer some of your questions:

 

~ She doesn't homeschool.

~ They haven't told the kids yet and are keeping their conversations away from the kids.

~ She is thinking they will be in the same town. They are still in the same house right now! Her parents live 2 hours away across a state line, though, and so their town could be an option (but not their house -- no room).

~ I think they are going to a judge but have been told that they could save money by agreeing on things. He wanted her to meet with a "mediator" and she did a couple of times. However, this guy is not a real mediator (kind of a self-study guy who learned a lot as he was going through his own divorce, which lasted for 4 YEARS). He also works with her dh and she understands now that it makes no sense for her to trust someone like that.

 

 

Here's another question for you: what about alimony? He makes $104,000, and she makes $16,000. Her degree is in social work, but she's been working at her daughter's preschool because childcare expenses would wipe out earnings ($8 an hour).

[Carrie12345]

Considering they're not homeschooling, 120 days would be insane (imo) if they're not in the same town. Otherwise, it seems perfectly within his right to request it.

 

I don't know much about alimony, but most states have a set child support formula. They can usually use a person's *potential income vs. what they're actually making (To discourage ncp from taking lower paying jobs to lower their support obligation. My "potential income" is used in our order, since I'm a sahm). That could work against her. However, daycare is usually considered separately, and is usually split 50/50 or so.

[Rich with Kids]

If he is uninvolved, she needs to keep documentation of every time he picks them up for visitation. Document what time he picks them up and drops them off. This is very important.

[TraceyS/FL]

Her lawyer should be advising her on the mediator. We have been ordered by the judge to go thru the court systems mediator program. She WILL get SCREWED by trying to save a penny here. She needs someone to have her legal back.... once she signs papers, it's over and no lawyer can easily undo what is done. Agreeing to things - but having it go thru the lawyer is the way to go. Not just between them - and certainly not using a friend/co-worker of the DH as teh mediator. UGH.

 

As for moving, we are both restricted to 50 miles from this house. Anything further has to be presented to a judge with justification as to why it should be allowed.

 

I've been living with my STBXH since this started, it's not easy at all. NOT. AT. ALL. The judge last week told us ti will make things a lot harder living in the same house. Right now there isn't a lot of options for me to go anywhere.

 

Alimony laws will vary by state - google can be your friend there.

[TraceyS/FL]

really, i didn't post this twice! LOL!!

Edited May 27, 2009 by TraceyS/FL
delete double post

[Pamela H in Texas]

Generally kids see the noncustodial parent every other weekend, every other holiday and one day per week (supper/movie/park/whatever). They also have a few weeks per summer. That is quite a bit of time (two full days per weekend is 52-ish days but it's actually more because of 5th weekends PLUS one evening per week which would be 52 more times though not full days....that is 100 days there. Add holidays and summer, you're talking more than 120 days easy).

 

In general, unless a parent is so bad that parental rights need to be vacated or visits need to be supervised (according to social workers and therapists), it is better for a child to see, as much as possible, the noncustodial parent even if he's a bit rough by most people's standards.

[Renee in NC]

In NC, the standard for joint custody is that both parents have the child at least 122 days per year. That may be why he is pushing the 120 days per year (which may be the standard in the state.) That changes the way child support is figured as well.

 

I picked the weekends/school breaks to get my time because he was in school and that way I had more "hands-on" time with him. It worked out well for the most part. We didn't always live in the same town but we were always fairly close.

 

Emotional abuse is impossible to prove. Ask me how I know.:glare:

[charmama4]

If he is uninvolved, she needs to keep documentation of every time he picks them up for visitation. Document what time he picks them up and drops them off. This is very important.

 

Yes, document document document. It may seem tedious, especially if things are going ok at the moment, but then it can all turn to @$&*. Seeing something in print makes all the difference in court.

 

I highly recommend mediation and actually surprised that it's not mandatory like many other states. If your friend is worried about money, mediation is the way to go. If and that could be a big if they weren't able to come to an agreement then going to court and having a total stranger that has no idea who the parents let alone the kids are, decide their fate.

 

I speak from experience of 7 years battling it out with my ex that has to have supervised visits because of choices he has made regarding the children and the emotional and physical abuse.

 

Counseling for the children could be an option especially if your friend suspects emotional abuse. Document everything and never ever let her children hear, see or feel the trauma of the PARENTS divorce.

 

Divorce is like business arrangement. Your friend and her soon to be ex are going to be business partners in the upbringing of their children. I realize it may be a cynical way of looking at it but that's what co-parenting is: a business arrangement. Now if one business partner is abusing the "product" then it is up to the other business partner to take legal action to protect said "product". It's a give and take relationship and I know (boy do I know) how hard it is to give and take with a "business partner" that you really dont like but in order to produce the best product (meaning raising the best kids we can) I have to.

 

I feel for your friend and just let her know the HURT does go away and she can go on. Her kids will be fine as long as she's vigilant and keeps her kids first in all she does.

[Danestress]

She can't also be guilty of trying to make it hard for him to get the children. Because, believe me, his attorney will have him documenting all the times he called and asked to have them for the weekend and she created reasons why that wasn't possible, all the times he wanted to take them to see his parents and she said "no," all the times he called and she said the kids didn't want to speak to him, etc.

[profmom]

Thanks for the help! I'm sending these posts to her.

[elise1mds]

Yup, she will have to get a lawyer and a REAL mediator (the lawyer should know one). I also know that because there are minor children involved, both parents will have to go through counseling before any major steps are taken. No getting around that one. The mediation will actually be part of the whole divorce process and will be ordered by a judge, if my friend who is currently getting a divorce is anything to go by. Her mediation is set up for next week. That is when the final custody arrangement will be set up. They have a temporary order in place that allows him custody of their older kid (age 3) every other weekend and their baby (age 5 months) on an hourly basis when he requests it. The baby is breastfeeding, which is why the mom set it up that way. She does NOT deviate from this temporary order, even if the dad asks for an "extra weekend" in there, because he could come back in mediation with documentation showing when she let him have the kids and request extra days in the final arrangement. If he misses a weekend, she documents that as well. Her ex is also the emotionally abusive type, and she's been down this road before. She knows what she's doing.

 

In Oklahoma, mom rules. What she wants is pretty much what will go, and she should push for that.

 

As for alimony, she can push for that, too, and I bet she'll get it. There are online calculators that should show her roughly what her child support payments will be, if she doesn't know already, and then she can request alimony to supplement that if she wishes. If she falls under certain income restrictions, she can also request DHS assistance for child care. Most daycares, even through schools, are DHS-approved, so she'll be able to put them almost anywhere.

 

I hope this helps. Bless her heart... I wish her luck!

[Joanne]

A friend has had her husband served in Oklahoma. She tries to never leave the kids with him because she is concerned how they will be treated. He isn't physically abusive, though, only emotionally, which seems so hard to prove. He has sent her what he would like to see for custody -- 120 days with him. He's so uninvolved now that this seems crazy, but she's been told it's really tough and expensive to try to get sole custody.

 

"Univolved" is difficult to prove and often disregarded in custody disputes.

 

Honestly? It's likely (in the absence of proven *abuse*) that he'll get generous visition. This will be without her input, presence or input.

 

Yes, document. But she'd be better off spending her time learning how to divorce and separate well, get support and professional help for her and the kids and build community and family stability and support for her and the kids.

[LaxMom]

In NC, the standard for joint custody is that both parents have the child at least 122 days per year. That may be why he is pushing the 120 days per year (which may be the standard in the state.) That changes the way child support is figured as well.

 

 

That's what I was thinking. "120 days" seems like an awfully bizarre thing to ask for. Maryland is either 120 or 125 (can't remember which) and they consider the child to have "join residency", which changes child support. That's different than joint custody, though. I had joint custody with "liberal visitation" (so love those vague descriptions...not) with my ex, but my daughter physically lived with me (primary physical custody).

 

I'd have her check into the laws about physical custody vs legal custody (decision making) in OK.

[SonshineLearner]

I have NO idea what the custody terms are for Oklahoma. BUT, I love having sole custody of my daughter. Legally, I choose the school, religion, and medical care for her. For us, this comes in handy for vaccines, church and homeschooling. Yes, he can try to change those things...but he has to go to court.

I would also have her think long-term. How will she enforce what's in the papers?? (usually court) But, she might have braces coming up....(should she get to pick...and he needs to pay what percentage??) And the courts will put things in about insurance (him maintaining) and such.... just go through each year of the child's life and see if there's something new in it. I'm really glad that my daughter's dad has to pay for all costs associated with her flying there....(and she has to go non-stop if there's a flight that does) Her mileage I keep for her future use.... I mean...it's a lot easier to think of now. I don't know how it would have ended up...had we gone to court....but I put in the papers...no one would smoke in her presence and she would be buckled in a booster until whatever the age is in our state...and that she wouldn't be left in charge of siblings or by herself until a certain age. At least I had him sign it.....

I'm very lucky. My daughter goes to his state....3 times a year for about 12-14 days.

PS, even though she doesn't think she'd homeschool, remember OK is very homeschool friendly right now... so she may want to take maintain that option...

Carrie:-)