There's a co-op within an hour of me that teaches the progymnasmata writing and their own version of Omnibus (history, lit, bible w/progym writing assignments). I'm going to visit their Parents meeting (hopefully) next week. But I still find it a bit strange to expect to get through all the progym in 2 years. I know Classical Writing (which is what I'm using now) starts around 3rd grade and can go thru high school. Classical Composition also goes for many years also. I don't have D'Angelo's book, Composition in the Classical Tradition so I don't know if mastery at each level would have been expected... although it seems like it would. Anyway, just wondering what others think of this. :confused: tia

Yet Another Option: Apples Daily Spelling Drills It covers it all in one book. Great for review or getting at those gaps in spelling that come from forgotten or missed lessons or even from switching curriculums. They do have a 2nd book if needed/wanted. If your dc is spelling fine though, I wouldn't bother. Most programs do end by 6th or 7th grade and then you can go on to vocabulary studies. hth

For memorizing math facts my kids are learning to skip count the facts 1 - 15 plus the squares and the cubes with Classical Conversations -Foundations prgm. The audio cd they sell has all these facts set to music so it's easy. Then we work on fast recall. The computer game: TimezAttack is great for this, then again so is Calculadders and QuarterMile math (well I only have the sample of this one). If you have the time the RightStart Math Games are very good at teaching and working the math skills by playing games. (.. my only problem with this one is that I haven't taken the time to learn the games and my kids don't want to read the instructions to find out!) Mastery Math Programs: Mastering Mathmatics sells 6 workbooks and one Teachers guide to cover all of arithmatic for grades 1-7. The books are: Attacking Addition, Subduing Subtraction, Mastering Multiplication, Defeating Division, Perfecting the Point, and Finnishing Fractions. Lial's Basic College Math (BCM) is a college textbook for those that didn't get arithmatic down before college. It seems to begin around 5th grade or so and takes you thru Pre-Algebra. Look for it used, it's pretty cheap. The answers to the odd questions are in the back so you really don't need a TE. (at least I haven't yet) These are the only ones that I am using. I think the Keys to ... series might also be an option. hth

I know some don't think that it covers enough history and yet others say reading the primary sources IS the history. Okay, noted. I'm still flip flopping on this one but for now I can put this part down. Now I'm wondering what the non-reading portion requires with respect to the history 'lesson'. hmm, what I mean is, What are the discussion questions or papers on wrt history? I did see the online sample but it only seemed to work with the Bible which I think they credit as theology ... so I can't get an idea of how it has the student work on history and for that matter literature. Since it gives credit for literature, does it teach the various terms in literature that say, something like Lightning Literature teaches? TIA

I tend to think of the difference as how 'review' is used. With a spiral approach, a new topic is taught about every day. Then they work some problems using the new lesson, then there are lots of problems that review past lessons. Basically if they don't fully get the new lesson down cold it's okay because they will get more chances as it comes up again in future reviews. So these 'reviews' are only a review for the kids that have mastered the material, others end up using the review problems as another chance to finally learn the lesson. I think incremental spends a bit more time on the new information but still uses the reviews to really learn the lesson. Mastery programs do not have a new lesson everyday. Instead they teach something new and then work basic problems related to the new lesson till it's about mastered. Then they work on more advanced problems related to the new lesson but also includes skills learned in past lessons (math really does build). If a separate review is included, it is really there just to review and put together all that was learned up to that point. Some mastery based programs use more review then others. BTW: I think Saxon is Incremental, MUS and Singapore are Mastery, Horizons is Spiral. hth

oops, We use Classical Writing but I goofed and voted in other ...

I have VfCR but haven't gotten to it very much. I like the idea of a roots based vocabulary program. I'm considering switching or adding WordRoots CD since the kids can use it on their own and the computer will check their work and keep them challenged and keep it fun all at the same time. Has anyone else used WordRoots? http://www.brightminds.us/searchByNeed.do?categories=s&subjects=l&code2=h&catalog3=h&gradeLevel=6&code=h&catalog2=h&x=27&y=7

Depends on what type of logic you want to do. Pre-logic skills would be things like Mindbenders or Lollipop logic or Critical Thinking books. We started off with Mindbenders and my kids liked them. Informal Logic: We are doing Fallacy Detective now and hope to get to Thinking Toolbox. Another option would be Art of Argument. My kids (grades 6 & 7) find Fallacy Detective fun. Formal Logic: I don't see that getting done within 10 minutes a day, nor will it be a fun into to logic. hth

I don't know which will help the other more: Algebra helping Logic or Logic helping Algebra. I'd look at what the pre-reqs are for the logic program you are considering (I keep getting them confused...TL and IL.) If algebra is needed for the logic they would tell you. If not then I wouldn't worry about it. Now doing them both might be a problem... then again some find algebra easy so it all depends. I didn't realize it but my kids will only be up to pre-algebra next year and yet I was hoping to start formal logic. hmm. You got me wondering about this.

I also prefer a mastery approach. I really think this approach works great for math. I chose Mastering Mathematics. My oldest (7th) did most of this but then I realized it wasn't a good fit for her. I've switched her to Lial's Basic College Math, which also uses a mastery approach. My 8 year old is doing great with MM. He also uses the abacus from RightStart. I've found that to be a better manipulative then most since we can't scatter pieces all over (I do have a 3 year old around here). I got the abacus with the RightStart math games which we use sometimes. I've also gotten Challenge Math and Primary Challenge Math for fun practice in word problems; but we haven't gotten to far with them. I've also added CalcuLadders for all kids to help speed up their math facts for end of year testing. hth

I've had such the hard time with my 13 year old dd lately. We can never get much classwork done. I can't seem to get her to bed on time and really can't get her up on time. This started back in Feb. I thought maybe she was sick (Mono?) but there was no fever or swollen glands etc. Everyone kept telling me how teenagers need more sleep, how they tend to need to sleep in and work later. Then in March everyone here got sick, most with the Flu. So when I took her to the doc for that, I asked about the sleepiness. Doc decided to order a blood test to check for anemia(sp?), thyroid, etc. I asked about Mono but again it seemed doubtful without all the other symptoms; but doc added that to the tests anyway. Well the tests are in. Wouldn't ya know it, she had Mono! [We have no idea how or where she got this either!] Here I was 2nd guessing all my homeschooling choices on curriculum, scheduling, etc. and I was right from the beginning! ug. Now to find the line between the tail end of Mono and the bad habit of sleeping in and starting late!

I looked into CC vs CW awhile back. Like you said, CW includes other aspects of LA: spelling, grammar, & vocabulary. In the later books it will also include application of logic & rhetoric. I'm not sure if CC will do this, I'm guessing it probably will (as I think it is part of the progym) but I don't remember. One difference that did help me to decide is the explanations. From what I've read CW explains the progym and how to teach it in a clearer, more complete way then CC. There are some here who use CC but I think they have said that they also purchased D'Angelo's book, "Composition in Classical Tradition" to have something to help them understand what is going on in the CC curriculum. Oh and check the number of levels, there may be a difference in how long it takes to get through the progym. hth

Have you seen Christine Miller's republished Guerber books? She has Story of the 13 Colonies and Story of the Great Republic. http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber.shtml It is written more for 4th grade or so and up but my 8year old listens to me read it just fine. hth

PROS: I think it really helps to 'get' the grammar, to see how it is all working together. It does help to write more complex sentences or to know how to re-arrange your thought so it flows better within your paper. With this skill, you can ensure your paper is filled with more interesting sentences by varying their type, order, etc. I know it's not mentioned too often but knowing grammar & the diagramming skills can also help to read and follow a long, difficult passage. It's challenging. CONs: Sometimes there is more then one correct diagram for a given sentence... thus it's called an art. This can be frustrating because we like to know if we are correct or not! It can be timeconsuming... if you don't agree that it's worth it then it can be frustrating.... and maybe dropped. ---------------------- Resources: I used Rod & Staff Eng 3 with my oldest dd and we got a great intro to diagramming. My ds is using Mary Daly's First Book of Diagramming w/Classical Writing Aesop B and I'm finding it a great resource. My oldest dd is now using Harvey's Grammar which teaches parsing and Classical Writing Homer which teaches diagramming. I really love CW for putting it all together so we can learn it and see how to make use of it. hth

Check out the Wishbone series. That's what I did and my 7 year old LOVED it! It's called Be A Wolf. Here's a link I just found that actually includes some of the text: http://www.wwwishbone.com/html/books/adven1Chap1.asp check your library. Mine actually has some of the books AND some of the videos. I let my ds watch one of the videos before giving him one of the books just so he would understand how it worked (going back and forth between real life and the dogs imagination in the book). hth

I've used it twice to teach each of my boys. My older boy already knew his letters and basic sounds but my younger guy started from scratch. Did you notice that there are lists of letters in the back? I used these with my youngest to check his progress on how well he knew the letters by name and basic first sound. Once he got most of those right we started with lesson one. Most of the time we just sat on the couch together, sometimes I pulled in a white board. It was soooo easy for me. Soooo straight forward for him. I did use Bob Books to supplement his reading but I'll consider their little companion books next time as they will at least go directly along with AP. With Bob Books I spaced them out to follow the lessons (sort of) in AP. BTW my ds moved quickly off the Bob Books before finnishing them and went onto to early readers. However he didn't stay there long; he quickly went to chapter books and just took off from there. This program really works! hth

So if Omnibus is more focused on lit than history (which is what I've heard before) then how does it incorporate the history readings? Or does it? Do the questions/work just focus on the lit? How much are the history readings from this text utilized.... or are they just background for the lit discussions? tia

Maybe it's just me but I think a good foundation in grammar gives you more then grammar and writing. It gives you a better ability to edit yours or someone else's paper. But it also helps with reading and comprehension. I know it has helped me when reading anything a bit difficult. Especially with a long sentence, being able to sort thru it and find the subject and simple predicate helps to identify the main idea. You can do the same for oral info if you can remember it long enough. I found my kids and I doing some of this when we were doing informal logic and determining if something was a fallacy. "Wait, what are they saying? Blah, blah, blah.... Okay kids let's go back and find the subject & predicate.... oh see, that blah, blah stuff was just an adjective, not the main idea" hth

CW is primarily a writing program... that's its main focus. It also covers some grammar, spelling, vocab and literature. hth

For me LA comprises the skills needed to communicate by the time they finnish 12th grade. Take in information in both oral and written form. Given this outside information they will need to be able to understand it and thus be able to answer questions, retell the information, study it for accuracy, determine if it is logical, understand it's intent, etc. With their understanding of the material, they will need to output their knowledge. So they will need to be able to given an oral presentation or write about this information in a form appropriate for their purpose and audience. Thus they will need to learn: Phonics for reading Silent reading Reading aloud for others Handwriting so they can put words on paper spelling Narration Comprehension writing sentences typing writing grammar (big for writing, comprehending difficult reading, & other languages) Oral presentations Non LA skills that apply to LA skills (imho): logic rhetoric history & science (aide in comprehension) For me, I've chosen: Alpha Phonics How to Teach Spelling FLL or Classical Writing lots of reading hth

Classical Writing - used w/o workbks, Aesop A & Aesop B-last year, Aesop B & Homer A this year... hope to use Poetry and Homer B (&A) next year. FLL - use for 2 years with one ds, and this is our 2nd year with next ds. will hold for youngest dd who is only 3yrs old right now. Mastering Mathematics- all the books with 3 kiddos. Oldest has switched to Lial's BCM, will continue with it next year to finnish. Handwriting Skills Simplified How to Spell / How to Teach Spelling (for all kids, oldest recently switched) Apples Daily Spelling Drills (for 13yo dd) Typing Instructor Deluxe (all kids till done) Mind Benders A1/A2 & B1/B2 CD (used for oldest two, storing for next two) Alpha Phonics (used with two kids, saving for last one)

Thanks everyone. Although I'm saddened to hear others are having the same problem, I'm kinda glad to know I'm not alone in this. hmm, a routine for me. The only thing I've done for that is to try to set up their subjects so I can bounce between kids and catch the beginning of each of their work when they might need me.... doesn't work too well. Setting aside time for "teacher duties" at night might help.... depending if dh needs something. LOL, me too! I also tutor for CC-Foundations! I'm just waiting for all the extra time to catch up! ... like your idea on schedule the ONE day and living in that one day. Worth a try! LOL, we sing that here also! {especially when they start goofing off!} Accountability?? Reality checks?... ouch. Your right. LOVE the slogan! I kinda wish K12 was just the planning tool... that part sounds great! I've checked out a few tools and your right, they stick too close to dates. ug.

Luanne, Don't drop it yet. I'm pretty sure you pick CW for a reason. There are plenty of us here that use or have used it and can help you. There is also the CW message boards where we've all gotten plenty of help. Okay, some have already asked if you have the workbooks. This is because they do walk you through it on a daily basis. However workbook or not the routine is basically the same. There are two parts to each day (IF you do one of CW weeks in one of your weeks.... some actually take two weeks per CW week of work). One part is the Annalysis & Immitation (A&I) and the other part is Writing. Each week you use one model for both the A&I and the writing project. The A&I part has a different focus for each day of the 4 day week. Each and every week has the same focus for those days. So "day 1" will always focus on reading the new model, going over pronunciation, etc. "Day 2" will always focus on Words... in Aesop you will work on spelling words from the model. There is a different focus for Day 3 and another for Day 4. Now, so you don't do the same thing with each model all year, CW has graduated levels for each day's focus. For example, on Day 3 (grammar? or sentence focus?) you might work on parts of speech in the beginning weeks but get to do diagramming near the end of Aesop. This part is where I find the workbooks really helpful since they spread out the levels for you. (Then again, doing it without the workbooks allows you to move your kids up the levels at their pace.) Each of the levels (per "day") are spelled out in the Aesop book so you don't have to guess... however this is where many get a bit lost if they missed the big picture. Starting on DAY 1 or Day 2, you also begin your writing project (unless you are taking 2 weeks per model, in which case you might begin your writing project on the 2nd week). This work is not actually broken down into days because all kids work differently. There IS a simple list or guideline with an order to follow for all writing projects. There is also a basic rubic for editing the paper. The writing projects gradually change over the course. It is a gentle introduction to narrative writing. Again the workbooks space out the levels of the writing projects for you. If you read thru the CW Aesop book you will see that the writing projects don't get very difficult. This gives the kids a good chance to become really comfortable writing these types of papers. Check out the CW message board; they have one board where users share their child's writing projects. You can get lots of ideas on what different kids of different ages produced for the various writing projects. hth PS just ask if you have any questions.

yeah, the dates are on the cards but for CC-Foundations we don't memorize them. We only memorize the title of the cards. It does give a framework or skeleton of history events/people. Depth comes if the parent/student wants to read the backs and even more if they want to read more about the topic from either the sources referenced on the back of the card or by just looking it up in other books. Presentations are usually based on the history sentence, science Q/A, or the timeline cards; so some depth may come from there. hth

Yes I spend too much time here, but I do learn soo much, really benefit from the knowledge and really enjoy helping others when I can. I also spend lots of time deciding on what to use and how to schedule it. Another problem is in implementing my plans. That is, actually getting everyone to bed on time, up on time, and started on time. With kids in 6th and 7th grade we have lots to do so starting at 10:00 or 10:30 is a big problem here, not to mention the 2nd grader and the 3 year old. So are the unplanned interruptions like helping dh to build the deck or finnishe the basement or the rare but sudden need to help another by watching their kids for a bit. I never plan to work over the summer but we always end up doing that because we are sooo far behind. As big as these problems are I'm beginning to wonder if these arren't my biggest problem. I choose, I schedule an order to the subjects to ensure I didn't over do it, but I don't read ahead. I'm a do the next thing for all subjects. I don't read the history till we start class. I don't read the literature, well sometimes we'll race each other thru the book. I don't even look ahead in math or spelling or vocab to see if I should be prepared for the lesson.... well I've done some for science but only to see what materials are needed. I thought it would be fun to learn with the kids and read it together but now I'm really wondering about this. Anyone else like this? I never seem to have time, then again my biggest outlet for 'taking a minute for me' is going online, reading here, checking email, surfing. I guess it's time to back off on all that, uh? Thanks for letting me ramble.