I'm sorry - I didn't want to erupt online- one reason my original post was so very short :). However, we *have* to discuss these things. How else are people who are wired so fundamentally differently supposed to understand each other? My big beef is not with your post at all, but with an educational system whose greatest threat is to take away recess. They can't assign sentences - that wouldn't be fair to those who struggle to write. They can't do In-School-Suspension - that would be robbing students of instructional time (which is just oh, so very precious!). They can't do After-School Detention - that would discriminate against mothers who work, and disrupt their day. All that is left is to say, "Please, stop." because there are only so many days of recess - and there are parents who call to complain when *that* is done, because it is the only break their dc receives during the day. I honestly don't think it would have mattered if someone had tried to "toughen me up" - Oh, I did have to go to the school counselor for "assertiveness training" - ha! I remember sitting there giving her the answers I knew she wanted while knowing it would never work in real life. It's hard to walk away from someone who has your school books up over his head, out of reach. Or, when you *really* have to go to the bathroom, and that's where the bully knows he can get to you, but the teacher can't. Or, when the teacher won't protect you even when there is blatant bullying going on in her presence. But, we did basically walk away by homeschooling, I guess - which is sometimes all you can do in real life: recognize - hey, this is toxic situation, and I do not have to stay in it. And then leave completely. I'm sure that's what you meant. Just from my POV, school is not the best atmosphere for learning that. Taking a :chillpill:, and wishing you a blessed day! Rhonda

I was hit by a motorcycle one week before 3rd grade. When I showed up 6 weeks later to school, I was bald (on one side - and it still had bandages. The other side was a crew-cut) with braces, a retainer, and glasses and hand-me-down clothes which were obviously belonged to a boy before we were given them. I was so picked on at school, I cried myself to sleep every night for two years, and *if* I had known how to kill myself, I would have. When my ds started being picked on (usually these things happen when the teacher isn't around), I tried to teach him to be assertive, but to let the teacher handle it. If I could go back and tell him to give the first bully a bloody lip, trust me I would. After two years, my dh and I would sneak in to ds's lunch (5th grade). He sat by himself day after day. I could see the light dimming in his eyes. Then he got one friend. The kid whose older brother was obviously doing drugs. I remembered the day I prayed and told God I would rather have *any* friend - even one who did drugs, but who was at least "nice" to me - rather than no friend at all. I knew where my ds was headed. After we started homeschooling, story after story after story came out. The "best" 5th grade teacher (personally picked by the principal after I wrote her explaining what all had happened in 4th grade) allowed another child to call my ds "gay" in front of the whole class in an obviously derogatory way. Her response? "OK, now stop." As the whole class laughed and pointed fingers and whispered. Maybe you and yours can stand up to that day after day and not suffer. I *still* suffer anxiety jitters in crowds of people - even at church. I could not just idly sit back and tell my ds to handle it - that it's just life, get over it. Nor has anyone even been able to teach me (or my child) how to change who we fundamentally are. There is always an underlying message that we *are* flawed, otherwise we would be accepted. I certainly don't have the answers - wish I did. Rhonda

That is the main reason we started homeschooling. =) Rhonda

Well, I cancelled all our lesson plans, and took my kids to the library for our last official week of school, and they were genuinely excited. They took their lists (Science, History, Art, Music, Fiction, Biog, ??) and searched on their own and found things. But, they weren't interested *at all* in continuing that through the summer. Ugh!!!!!!! Boys!!!!!! My older ds is spending quite a bit of time as a Junior Counselor at a day camp, so I haven't pushed the issue - I've got too many major house repairs to do, anyway. But, seeing them excited about participating in their education was encouraging (altho' probably they were more excited about no more lessons rather than just about the library - LOL!). Obviously, I don't know how to teach it. I think I will just have to make a commitment to doing it, and hope and pray that they "catch" it. =) Rhonda

I think it's hard to combine, too. Even though both my kids used SOTW-3 last year (4th and 7th), they didn't even use it at the same time during the day. It was an independent assignment - and I usually had to read it with my 4th grader. So, we were all studying the same topic, and we could meet and I could use the questions in the AG to guide our discussion, but other than a few times when I read and they both took "notes", their history assignments were completely separate. Next year they will both be in logic stage and will have virtually identical assignments. I'm curious to see how that goes. =) Rhonda

Especially if she wants to work more independently. The schedule and discussions would be pre-planned for you, which will probably be a big help as well.

Aww, Man! No fair, my dd's sleeping and I need to hold her now! I do agree that partly this is age. I *so* much more *enjoy* my 3yo dd than I ever just *enjoyed* my boys (who are now 13 and 10). It's not that I love her more - my boys were actually sweeter! But, I just savor every moment I have with her - which is wierd because I was *not* happy when I realized she was on the way -LOL! =) Rhonda

For me it is more akin to nursing. With my first dc we were watching "The Last Action Hero" and the bad guy was listing off evil personages from various movies he hoped to bring into real life...When he got to "Rosemary's Baby", the mere mention of the word "baby" made my milk let down and the whole front of shirt was instantly sopping wet. That's the same physical rush I get now when reading, watching, singing - that sort of thing - only now it wells up in tears. And I just have to stop and breathe. The other night I was crying over "Everybody Loves Raymond" of all things - too wierd! :001_smile: Rhonda

OK - I have a different take. When I first started hs'ing I had a similar post, and I think it was Ellie who responded with, "Why are you sending an obvious social butterfly off to do his work by himself?" At first I resented this because I kept hearing how independent and self-teaching homeschoolers were supposed to be, and it didn't seem fair. But, really, life is so much better, and school is so much better, when I work with my kids. I do their Latin flashcards with them, for example. I read their Latin lessons with them, and then do part of the work with them - which means I'm learning it, too. But, even if we were using a DVD, I would probably sit with them while they watched it so we could pause and discuss and I could know they were getting it. My kids do have independent work in each subject, so I'm not advocating to eliminate it! But, it's definitely a balance that will vary from family to family - and just because something is designed to be self-teaching doesn't mean self-teaching will work with every student. Best wishes! Rhonda

Marsha, Yes - I know Pam SFSOM took two years for each Core (though I don't think she slowed it down). But, if you'll ask this over at the Sonlight Choosing Forum (I think that's the name - it's the one that's free, anyway), you will get these questions answered in detail. hth, Rhonda

Too funny! =)

Thankfully, Diego is quickly de-throning Caillou as the flavor of the month. However, it does help to envision him as a young Lex Luthor ala Smallville. Didn't think about it being from Canada, so thanks for the heads-up on that one, ladies! =)rhonda

Oh, my. Guess I'll just enjoy the re-runs and be thankful! (Who'd-a thunk he'd be bald?) =) Rhonda

Please remember I had an 7-year-gap when my boys were too old for preschool shows, and my dd wasn't here yet (or wasn't old enough). I'm sorry, I'm just *really* curious. Joe is ok - But...I just hope Steve is doing well! (And, are they related?) I've also always wondered how an obviously non-ethnic family came to name their boy "Caillou", and why he is bald. Cyber-chocolates to whomever might shed some light on these things that make me go "hmmmm....." :001_smile: Rhonda (Who tears up when the "old" Barney - the one with all *our* friends - comes on!)

Last year we used KIHW for outlining and maps, a Timeline, SOTW (and a handful of library books) for "reports", and history-related Read-Alouds. I used the SOTW-AG to determine which KIHW to use - so I guess SOTW was really our "spine". We all *really* enjoyed doing it this way - sort of an amalgamation of WTM & SL. This year, I am hoping to use SOTW differently on weeks when only one chapter is scheduled. First, our week will start on Friday, and we will all read SOTW together and the boys will make lists of names, places, events - things they research at the library. We'll do KIHW & timeline/maps on Monday, then they will have Tues-Thurs for extra reading and report writing. I don't know if this will work or not, to be honest. I hope it does because I really want my kids using the library for themselves. But, I will miss our history-related read alouds, and the simplicity of always knowing in advance what we'll be doing! =) Rhonda

Oh, wow! I'm going to ask our librarians about such an orientation night - that is a *great* idea! Thanks for mentioning it. =) Rhonda

We did General last year, and will do Physical this coming year (so I have looked it over). And, yes, I think you'll be fine if you wait until Biology to start Apologia. Some things you may not get are the history over-view of science (which has a two-fold purpose, one of which is showing that science and faith are not historically anti-thetical), the young-earth/catastrophic POV in the discussion of fossils, and the discussions about environmentalism. If you wanted to include these things, I think you could find resources at Answers in Genesis. One book we used was "It Couldn't Just Happen", but I'm sure there are many, many others as well. (BTW - If I was a good science mom, I would probably wait to start Apologia with Biology as well. I'm just *not* a science person, and Apologia does get done!) hth, Rhonda

I'm not sure how to define rigorous. I think it is mastery, rather than exposure. If a curriculum or method is rigorous, then (in my mind) my dc will leave my house well-read, able to comprehend others, and able to reason logically for themselves. It is almost learning for the joy of learning - not because it will get me a job, but just because it's so *cool* to no longer be as ignorant as I once was. I think rigorous can mean different things to different people, and certainly every dc should walk his own path. But, ideally rigorous is the creme de la creme, and will not always be attainable (either by me or my kids). But, we can always choose to challenge ourselves - which is where toughness comes in. Tough is me having to be a teacher rather than a facilitator of a schedule. (And, I agree with Ria when she says, "Students need teachers.") It means my dc will not comprehend the material adequately on his own, nor will he be able to fake his way through it. It will meet him where he is, but it will push him way beyond that point as well, and I must help him. Tough is tough on me, but shouldn't push my dc to tears. Strict, on the other hand, is up to me, not the curriculum. I try not to be strict. Strict leaves no room for errors and re-dos. Strict is no flexibility, no wiggling, no talking, and as Brian Regan says, "NO MORE HAPPINESS!" A curriculum can be tough, but if I am there helping and coaching and looking for progress rather than perfection, then it's not really so bad. Fun isn't really tied to curriculum around here - some of that is me being an un-crafty person who hates to clean up messes, and some is out of deference to my very pragmatic boys (that may change when dd is on the scene). But, for now, school is school - we do it. But, we are still "we". We have inside jokes (see Brian Regan above), we laugh, we talk, we discuss, we read, sometimes we cry, we pray, we read R&S Exercises in our hill-billy voices, we make up songs and rhymes for our memory work, we rap and dance to our Latin chants, we read some more, we cook, we watch my dd dance to classical music during lunch, we eat popcorn alot - and sometimes we watch a movie, we look at art (we look at art! I never looked at art when I was growing up! - how cool is that?), we share science experiments and glimpses of wildlife in the backyard, we write and read it out loud to each other, and call Dad and share it over the phone - in short, we live! And, that is fun. :001_smile: Rhonda ps - If you've never heard SWB speak, I highly recommend her CD's. Her personality simply sparkles in a way that WTM just never captures, and you just know from listening to her that the journey will be fun as well as rigorous.

Thanks! I was wondering how to research Aaron Burr, who is mentioned in one of our lit pieces this year, and there he was! This will be a great way to fill-in-the-blanks between the SOTW chapters. =) Rhonda

Perhaps because we started "late", and my kids weren't well-grounded in phonics. Perhaps because it teaches spelling the way *I* think about spelling. But Rod & Staff Spelling (3rd-6th) has been *wonderful* at teaching how letters come together to make sounds we call words, and it helps my kids think through how to spell words they haven't been explicitly taught. I wasn't *quite* as thrilled with the 7th grade. I didn't see the roots being used to decipher meanings cross-curricularly. But, ds's spelling did continue to improve - so he knew how to spell the roots, anyway! I'm hoping to incorporate some of the WTM recs for VFCR to help boost the roots work next year in 8th. =) Rhonda

Because I'm using it for myself (my oldest is going into 8th), and I love how it really helps me discover the essence of a work without telling me what I ought to be looking for. (Often, I find my discovery is a bit different from the slant of the online book-analysis sites.) But, one thing that concerns me is that there is very little literary-analysis-eeze (that's not right - but what I mean is, WEM doesn't specifically mention "denouement" or "microcosm", for example). The curriculum that teach literary analysis seem very focused on these types of terms and identifying these things in a story. So, I get scared that we're going to miss out on something important! I know that's silly. We are finding the theme, and we are discussing how the author develops that theme; but, still that "Oh, I hope I'm not messing this up!" feeling frequently returns! The other thing - and the thing that *really* frustrates me, and maybe others - is the lack of how to write about what we're discussing. My oldest (tho' admittedly not yet in high school) is still firmly entrenched in writing summaries. I'm trying to trust the WTM path, and hope that somewhere there's going to be a resource that will gently move us onto the path of writing essays. I know that's not the focus of WEM....But.....Could you please share what you've used for this? :) Thanks, Jennifer! Rhonda

If you do, you will probably find LOADS of books on mythology & fables. I know that we ended up using lots of library books - even picture books - rather than the "Tales from (insert country)" books. (We did a mix and match of the 1st grade and 5th grade lists - mostly going by topic rather than specific book titles.) We also bought D'Aulaire for Greek myths, Black Ships Before Troy, In Search of a Homeland, and Odysseus by Geraldine MCcaughrean (this was a read-aloud). There are several Ancient-related stories and such in The Book of Virtues (Aristotle; Aesop - but you could probably find illustrated library books for Aesop; The Athenian Oath; As Rich as Croesus; Bulfinch - and other myths; Cicero; Cincinnatus; Plato; selections from Esther, Exodus and Ezra; I'm sure there are other). These are short and readable, and give you something to do for the harder-to-find people. There are also book lists in the SOTW-Activity Guide, with suggested grade levels. But, if your library *is* good, you probably won't need the list in the AG. If your library isn't good, that may give you a good list of things to buy - but I would try to buy used. I wouldn't worry about making *all* of the reading related to history - you could just use whatever your library happens to have, and not worry about the rest. Just fill in the schedule with books from other reading lists (like the 1,000 Good Books List, or SL Catalogue, for example) and have fun! ETA: Actually, we did lots of Read-alouds because my dc had just come from public school, and I didn't want to overwhelm them. This was probably my favorite part! You could have her read the 1st grade list, and then use the 5th grade list as Read-alouds. Best wishes! Rhonda

You will find mixed reviews about *anything* if you look long enough! I just want to reassure you that even though many people here on *this* board may (how to say this nicely???) look down their noses at a curriculum like SOS (or BJU or Abeka or whatever), that doesn't mean it is the worst thing in the world you could ever do. It is obviously working for enough people to keep those companies in business! And, although I've never used SOS, I happened to meet several ladies who used SOS through high school, and their kids are in college and doing fine. (OK - maybe not Ivy League, but here in Georgia, Ivy League isn't usually the goal - LOL!) One of the presenters of a "How to Home School High School" conference I attended gave us her dd's transcript - it was practically ALL A/O Life-Pacs (This was before SOS). She *highly* recommended using SOS as a spine of sorts - and really liked using United Streaming to spice up the lessons. I'm sorry I'm not too familiar with some of the things you've listed. So, no help there. But - please! - ditch the guilt, and use *whatever* you need to get your basics covered with the least amount of effort. Then, maybe you'll have some energy left over to do the things that you and your boys really LOVE doing! (and dd, too!) Best wishes!~ Rhondabee

I went to a small, liberal arts college - not a huge university; and I exempted both Calculus and Freshman English. Because Calculus completely fulfilled ALL my math requirements for my degree, I went ahead and exempted it even though I only made a 3 on the test. I know I would have been in big trouble had I needed to take anything further!!!! But, in English I passed the exam with a 5, and went on to make A's in Sophomore English. I was the only freshman to do so, and had friends who had not done as well on the AP test become really upset that they were suddenly "B Students". I think both AP classes were very valuable to me, and I'm very glad I took them. I would have been glad even if I hadn't been able to exempt anything! But, I really think you'll be fine exempting as long as your score is high (5 used to be the highest score - not sure how it is now). If not, at least an AP class is probably better preparation than a normal class. The other pitfall some of my high school friends made was taking *all* AP Classes senior year. None of them scored high enough on any test to exempt anything, and they were very stressed all year. :001_smile: Rhonda

pretty cool. Not your typical "study guide" - I think this will really help me talk about these with my boys in a more fun, "less WEM-ish" way iykwim. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/publish/etc/medialib/shared/educator_guides/sherlock_holmes.Par.0001.File.tmp/SherlockHolmes_1.pdf :) Rhonda