Thanks! Rhonda

http://wtmboards.com/K8currJul182007/messages/423.html See, I can't even tell everyone how much I enjoyed reading our old posts, because they have no reason to open this thread. But, it was fun (too much fun - much more fun than laundry!). ;)

I could remember better how to compare them back then, and did a pretty extensive comparison. If I find it I'll link it here. Rhonda

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1856978621/ref=dp_olp_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1211466575&sr=8-2 This doesn't come up as much as it used to. But there are some of us who really believe the old Kingfisher is much easier to outline from, while avoiding political correctness (painting every great history figure as "good"). I paid about $90 for mine (I didn't know it was OOP, and was trying to follow the recs in the WTM first edition). Anyway, there are quite a few available for under $30, so thought I'd let you know. :001_smile: Rhonda

:iagree: The KHE is much harder

Dittos to Colleen! My kids are older (now in 5th and 8th), but my older ds was in 5th when we pulled him out of public school. There were MANY gaps that needed to be filled in, so that first year (year and a half) were really stressful. I know there are other ways of homeschooling out there, but WTM was just so complete. I just had to constantly be aware of where we were, and where we were headed, and *try* to get there in a reasonable amount of time, without being too concerned if it was taking longer than I hoped. If you plan to do cross-curricular writing, then everything I would say is in WTM. It doesn't really matter if you choose R&S or ABeka w/Writing STrands (or Wordsmith) - or whatever. It is more a mind-set of always looking for how to apply the writing (and grammar) to your other subjects than any particular program. Although, if your 12yo will be doing 7th grade work next year, and doesn't have much grammar and writing under his belt, I would probably choose Abeka 7th and a separate writing program. Their 7th grade book is the foundation for their high school program, so it's a good starting point. (Also, WriteStart is very popular here on the boards, and gives a lot of hand-holding for mom - especially in evaluating writing.) What really matters in writing is focusing on *one* thing at a time to improve. Praise, praise, praise and then work on that *one* thing. I let my writing program dictate what to teach and when to teach it. Magic Wand had a great post about this: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29101 Also, here is a review of Wordsmith from SWB that you might find interesting: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordsmith.html Hope some of that helps! (Sorry, I am mostly a parrot of WTM, so...) Rhonda

Oh - your post made me remember why I quit trying to type in my plans last year. I have a hard to "seeing" things on the computer (not visually, just mentally). I end up needing to write it out in pencil first *anyway* - so why not use that? And, I planned six weeks at a time this past year - but I ALWAYS changed my plans the weekend before it was time to teach. (I can understand tweaking SL or TOG or whatever - but my *own* plans?!?!?!?) IDK - I'm going to hopefully be away from here, and trying to get something productive done today! Thanks for all your schedules, btw! Rhonda

Thanks for the offer! I've got our grids from this year updated with next year's subjects, so I'll just use those if I don't get the Excel figured out. My dh said, "You just have to highlight the row and then pick it up and move it." Given his tone of voice and the rolling of his eyes, I think this was a big ego-boost for him! =) Rhonda

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have you read the history section of the logic stage? That is where you find the "how to go about teaching outlining" stuff. The first step is to find the main idea of each paragraph, and re-phrase it in your own words. Write one sentence per paragraph, and DO NOT fill that sentence full of all the information that is in the paragraph (my down-fall!). It should not include the details that support that main thought - just the main thought. After that is easy, you start listing the details that support the main thought of each sentence underneath it. You will probably need to help your student by reading each sentence and asking, "Does this tell me about the main thought?" Sometimes it won't - it will tell about one of the subpoints, so you have to leave it out. The next step is to start listing the details that support the subpoint underneath the subpoints. That is a 3-level outline, and as far as logic stage goes. There is obviously alot more detail in WTM, but that's the gist of it. hth, Rhonda

OK - I think I understand better. So you used the headings in the book to create your outline topics *before* you read; and, then, you'll really be taking notes/outlining in *one* step while you read? (Before, I was thinking you were reading & outlining, then re-reading & taking notes - sorry!) That sounds like *great* practice for learning to use textbooks efficiently. SOTW-4 AG also has outline helps included. They usually list the Main Topics, then give blank lines for the details. Sometimes the first few words are included, sometimes not. Later stories give the complete outline, and have students write from that. So, what you're doing sounds very similar. When you're giving them the blanks to fill in, that makes the outline much easier, so please don't worry about my saying the 2 or 3-level outline would be too hard. As Colleen said, you're doing great! =) Rhonda

I agree. I use MS Word to make a weekly blank grid now, and fill it in with pencil. I like that because I can see if I'm over-loading one day & adjust. I'll have to ask my dh how to better navigate in Excel, and keep trying with that. Thanks! Rhonda

this would be for a make-your-own Atlas. Thanks! Rhonda

WTM w/SOTW gets my vote, especially if you have a good library system. Best wishes!

May I ask how old your dc are? Really, I think creating a 2-level (and 3-level as Colleen posted) is too much for just starting out - unless your kids are in 7th or 8th grade. Or if you are writing it with/for them as you guide their narration discussion, and then they are using your outline to help them write their summary report. There are so many different ways to do it, and I'm sure whatever you do will be fine! Your outline looks like your chosen spine covers much more than Kingfisher (which we use) - but I would just be careful not to overload them with writing. I do think it would help not to write "one long thing" at the end of a chapter that contains as much info as your outline suggests. So, I guess I would maybe do the outline together, but then choose *one* part of the outline to write about (especially if they would have time to do extra reading to fill in extra details - such as on one of the missionaries). Hope that makes sense. Rhonda PS - fwiw, my 5th grader will be writing one sentence per paragraph from KingfisherIHW next year then writing two additional paragraphs about a topic of his choosing from additional reading. He will outline every Kingfisher article because one sentence per paragraph is only about 3 or 4 sentences per outline. All told for the week, that's only about a page to maybe a page and a half each week. My 8th grader will be doing a 3-level outline on *one* Kingfisher article, and just reading any other(s) that are scheduled that week. Then, he will write between 2 to 4 pages of summaries/reports on his additional reading. That will probably average about 4 pages a week? But, he is writing very fluently now; I wouldn't expect that if we were just starting out. Best wishes!

Thanks for the link. Before I download it, may I ask: when it prints out, is it in a grid like Sonlight? (I really like that look.) Thanks! Rhonda

But, this is a "rule" that both WTM and R&S-7 can be broken - especially when outlining someone else's materials.

Shamelessly curious - what did you switch from (to WEM/WTM)? =) And, how/why was WEM/WTM better for you?

OK, you Excel people have me convinced that I should chuck the pencil plans for next year. I'll never be able to do this on my own, but I found sheets on Donna Young's site for Excel. The only problem is I can't figure out how to "bump" the assignments over a day (in case of sickness or a really great weather day!). That was the feature you all raved about that convinced me to give this a try. Can anyone help me figure this out? Thanks! Rhonda (Who, yes, passed the Excel test to keep my teaching certificate, and No, I obviously didn't learn a thing!)

The only problem I see with using Rod & Staff for writing (with your 8th grader only), is that the 7th grade grammar is *hard*. I think that's why WTM recommends starting with the 6th grade book. Maybe you should ask for sample pages and see what you think. Many people use R&S below grade level, and grammar-wise that's probably good. My big concern would be that R&S-7 assumes so much prior knowledge, that it might be discouraging for her. But, I don't know what she's done. Her reading is way ahead of my up-and-coming 8th grader, so....ya' know, it might that your "failing grammar" is my "hey, we're doing great!" =) Also, (IMO) R&S writing isn't really "ahead" of grade level - not nearly like the grammar, anyway. At the beginning of our 7th grade year, I was really discouraged seeing post after post of other 7th graders working on 5-paragraph essays while we were still working on different type of paragraphs. It took looking ahead and seeing what my plan was for high school to calm my fears that I had made the right decision for us. ETA: You might post asking what people use for writing if they use R&S below grade level? I may be way off base. There are people who use R&S just for the grammar, but use another writing program. I think if I were using it below grade level, that's what I would opt for as well. (But, if I were going to use another writing program, I would probably choose Abeka or Analytical Grammar.) I'm not saying you *shouldn't* use R&S. But, I would definitely look at the TOC thoroughly - will it get you where you want to be by such-and-such a time? - and request the sample lessons - will it get you where you want to be without making you feel sick every time "grammar" rolls around? You can see some online at: http://www.rodandstaffbooks.com/list/Rod_and_Staff_Curriculum/ hth, Rhonda

This is what we've been doing, too; but not nearly so well organized. I love your trick of marking the last writing lesson with a sticky note! I'm sure that will help next year. Not sure what all is going on, but I'll be praying for you.

Your concrete suggestions sound so much more do-able than "statistics". I've been contemplating adding in some "Real World" Math next year, tho' I haven't quite gotten past the contemplating stage - LOL! So, I appreciate your suggestions. As Lori pointed out, they are probably things we ought to be doing, anyway! :001_smile: Rhonda

The new math curriculum in Georgia (I can't find name or publisher) for 8th-high school supposedly combines Algebra, Geometry & Statistics. Has anyone heard of this? I don't suppose this will/should change any of my plans, but hearing this does sort of up my worry-radar. I don't have any idea how/when to teach Statistics. If your state implemented such a curriculum, would you follow it? Thanks, Rhonda

I'm gonna haf'ta steal your "Make Your Own Atlas" project. What a cool idea! Thanks for sharing~ Rhonda

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