Thanks all. I'm reviving this thread as we head into the final stretch of our decision for the Fall. I'm just curious if anyone else has experiences with the newer curriculum which is supposed be a significant revision and improvement? We are still leaning toward it. Currently, ds13 is going through Lively Art of Writing which he actually enjoys. That's a first for him since writing has never been something he has liked. I'm hoping LToW won't prove to be to much drudgery work for him or bore him too much. I'm trying to keep that little spark alive in him which I haven't seen before. The big question in my mind is will LToW be like a big wet blanket even if teaching wonderful skills? I know that varies per child. But upon reflection he was not very fond of WWS. Though I think it did help his writing skills. While I don't expect him to love writing I'm just hoping he doesn't have to dislike it as much in the coming year.

ds13 is the in the same place as he prepares for High School. After finishing WWS II early this year we moved on to Lively Art of Writing. Wow, what an excellent little book! We're all very impressed including our reluctant writer. He actually likes writing more since starting it which is saying a lot since its his least favorite subject. He will finish before 9th grade. So I'm still not quite sure what we'll use next. Though we're leaning toward using with the newest LToW which we've heard good things about.

Thanks, that is very helpful. I guess I missed that part. :)

Are there any video samples of his lectures available anywhere? I couldn't find any while searching youtube.

Couldn't find much, but here is one post: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/281390-wwwliveonlinemathcom-wjohn-bovey/

Well, I think much depends on the student. But if they are used to being relatively independent then I don't think you'll be required to do much 'generally speaking.' The reason I say generally speaking is that we have only experienced math and not these other courses. So I can only speak to those. For math, ds13 was 99% independent this year. When he had questions with certain problems the instructor was available to answer them. So the main thing left to do was basically just make sure his tests and homework were scanned and turned in on time. I would say 'no' to needing extensive help from you as the teachers are very approachable. The classes offer ample opportunities to interact with peers and instructors. So unless there are major gaps in understanding I don't see this as an issue. In fact, you may be surprised with how much they wind up doing in their own. That said, you need to still help them learn how to manage their time effectively and keep track of their assignments.

I don't think it really matters to them as long as the child is academically ready and able to perform at higher levels. For example, my son took high school geometry this year during 8th grade. They never once seemed to be concerned. I think they just wanted to know that he had successfully completed the algebra prerequisite which he had through AoPS. I basically just talked to the teacher beforehand about the class in general. I always have 'many' questions for any new class. During those discussions I mentioned his academic level including his grade. She never once questioned his age even though it is for the next level up - School of Rhetoric. So I recommend simply speaking with the instructor and ask all your questions. Then mention your son's age including his current academic level. Notice they use the term 'Recommended' course of study, which I think is all it really is - a general recommendation. There was no placement test. I think they give the parent the benefit of the doubt knowing what is academically age appropriate for their own child. At least that was my experience this year. And of course now that he has almost completed Geometry successfully there is no question about advancing to the next level. When in doubt, ask. Establishing a good rapport early with the instructor will prove beneficial throughout the entire course. I've found the instructors to be very approachable and helpful.

In addition to the great MOOCs already mentioned, there are more high quality academies popping up including our very own WTMA. We have been especially happy with Wilson Hill Academy and will continue there next year. While not necessarily new, I would say taking classes via dual enrollment is still very popular. And now more of those college courses are available online for credit. Of course you have your old standards such as PAHomeschoolers where you can take a bunch of AP courses if that is your thing. I look at 18 as a transition year preparing for college. So there are many options to go in working toward that if it is his goal.

As you can see, when you ask questions like this you'll get 101 different answers because it varies per child and family preference. I agree with others in that there is no reason to pick 'one' math curriculum for all grades way ahead of time. It simply isn't necessary. Start with finding a Pre-A that's a good fit for your dd. What will work best with her learning style? I recommend getting free samples (e.g. AoPS, MM, etc.) and used texts (e.g. Dolciani, Lials, etc.). Then look at them with her. It doesn't hurt to have a few resources on hand anyway for a different take on things and extra problems when certain areas need more work/practice. Then you'll have plenty of time to consider the other math subject years as she grows academically each year. Think about when you went to school and studied math or even current solid school programs. Rarely do they use only one publisher/resource for all subjects (pre-a through calculus).

Thanks, we're leaning toward LToW currently. But we'll consider your suggestion if that changes.

We skipped AoPS Pre-A as ds didn't like it at the time. Instead we used TabletClass Pre-A and supplemented with AoPS video lessons which are 'really' good. Then, we went with AoPS Intro to Algebra and it was a smoother transition having been introduced to algebraic concepts first, before staring the discovery approach. If your son hates wordy math I question whether AoPS is really a good fit for him overall. Our ds wasn't thrilled with the wordiness either. But he liked the explanations in that they are written toward the student. So in that sense I think it has to be more wordy than most math texts. The discovery approach was an interesting experience. While I'm glad he did it he's just as happy, perhaps even more, using another curriculum this year for geometry. Just remember that there are a lot of good, solid math options available for algebra and beyond.

Can you please be a bit more specific regarding what you did not like about DO Pre-A? Did your dd find it too simplistic, too much review, easy, hard, boring, not what she/you expected...? We are also using MM and looking toward next steps after 6. I noticed you have kind of dabbled in a combo of things, possibly creating your own Pre-A. Then you simply jumped right into Jacobs, correct?

This is what I've seen as well. However, I work in a STEM profession. So that may limit my view of others gaining paid graduate assistantships. There is another group which I've seen in this area that is kind of a crossover area between STEM and business. For example, my BIL works for a public utility company in Finance. They are paying for his masters in Business Analytics which is a growing field that shares common STEM type courses with the new field of 'Data Science.'

Another good route to go for graduate school is to look for sponsorships through the military or the Department of Defense. I have a friend who is going through the SMART Program at the Naval Post Graduate School (NPS) here in Monterey, CA. It is fully funded 'including' living expenses with a guaranteed job upon graduation. Because we live right next to the Navy school we have many friends who attend and basically all of them are being paid to get their degrees (Masters, PhD's). Of course, it is competitive and they are typically high achievers. But still, it is something to consider.

Th old, traditional route of finding promising career success via law or medical school degrees isn't what it used to be. While at the same time the costs of those degrees have gone up significantly. I know quite a few in these fields, especially, law, doing other things to make a living now. And those jobs don't require law degrees. For example, a coworker does software programming which he's basically learning on the job after graduating from law school. He also has an MBA which he is not really benefiting from either. I've also heard of doctors deciding it just isn't worth it anymore with mounting malpractice insurance costs and reduced billing rates for services rendered. Medical doctors in many other countries were never as highly paid as those in the US. Now that is starting to change for US physicians. Many are forced to book ridiculous amounts of patients per day (double/triple booked) and work extra long hours. However, as other have mentioned there still are specialty areas in the medical field which can do better. Specialty nurses (e.g. Nurse Anesthetist), NPs, PAs, Physical, Occupational Therapists, etc... can still have decent paying careers. I've actually heard of medical doctors deciding to become nurses for this very reason - less overhead and headaches with better potential earnings. Of course, if becoming a physician is a student's passion then money is less relevant as long as they count the cost.

I have a follow-up question along similar lines for those who have used DO Pre-A. How difficult or challenging would you say the course is for an average or even somewhat reluctant math student? I am looking ahead a bit for our middle dd for whom math is not a strength, though she does work hard at it. I will not have her take the same path as ds13 did with TabletClass which was challenging in a good way for him. I'm thinking more about DO, Dolciani or something else which is solid, but not over the top difficult for her. Consequently, AoPS is out. But at the same time I don't want easy street for her either as I believe some struggle is necessary/good. MUS and TT are not options. Thanks,

Thanks for the feedback everyone. We are leaning toward LToW after reviewing it more and also discussing it with families who have the latest teacher's edition. I think it will be worth a try. If we don't like it there are many other good options including online classes. Please, if anyone else has any further recommendations I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks,

It really is fun to look back and see how some plans changed over time. It's also interesting to watch the way different children responded to one approach over another. AoPS was the real wildcard for ds13. While the teaching method wasn't a good fit during Pre-A, it was fine for him one year later after TabletClass. Even though this thread's subject is Pre-Algebra, it really is more about the transitional phase from primary to secondary math including all the challenges which ensue. Children are developing so fast during this phase its actually quite amazing to watch. We will soon be approaching this stage with two more. I have a feeling the journey will be different for each one since each is so different. Our middle dd struggles more with math and it is also her least favorite subject. So it will be back to the drawing board with her, looking for that just right challenge. In the few years since this thread was started there have also been some new developments in this area and therefore more options available. I'll be looking closely at WilsonHillAcademy Pre-A for our middle dd. I think having something interactive like this would be a good motivator for her. For the youngest I'm thinking TabletClass will probably be a good choice since she does pretty well when given more challenging material. But its still too early to tell.

ds13, who is also STEM directed, is really enjoying Jurgensen Geometry via 'live' online class at Wilson Hill Academy. I highly recommend this math course. Not only does the teacher grade the proofs, which is no small thing, she is available to answer all his questions. They meet twice per week for 90 minutes of interactive class time. Jurgensen is a strong proof based Geometry text used by many prep schools and honors level geometry courses. We looked at many other options before selecting WHA and are very glad we did. This is a very complete program which ds13 does 99% independent. For writing we've been relatively happy with WWS I & II. They are challenging courses but definitely teach good skills. We haven't taken any of their online writing classes through the WTMA, though some here have.

:laugh: :lol: :thumbup: regarding changing one's mind three times. :tongue_smilie: I thought this thread was laid to rest. But you have resurrected it from the archives.

To have 'one' Pre-A that works for them both you would need a solid program that is not overwhelming for the older. While this may not be impossible it does sound like a much taller order than tailoring a program for each dd depending on how she learns best. For the older, especially, you may need to try a few things out first to gain a better sense of best fit for her learning style. What I recommend doing is starting earlier, even now, introducing them to a few programs to gauge how they might work out. Most programs have samples including AoPS. This can be fun for a child as they get to try out advanced 'big kid' stuff even if its only one day a week in the beginning. We did that with ds13 while in 5th grade as he was finishing up primary math. It gave him something to look forward to as well as a break from his normal math duties. AoPS has Alcumus which you could take for a test run with them. They also have videos which are very good and correspond to the chapters in the book. For the older, AoPS would be a huge leap from TT and not likely a good fit. But it may work out for the younger. Just keep in mind that AoPS readiness goes beyond algebraic reasoning readiness. Our ds tried it earlier on and didn't like. Then a year later he did after another Pre-A and we went through Intro to Algebra. For the older you may want to consider a 'live' online class like this one at Wilson Hill Academy. The courses are very interactive providing the student plenty of visual and auditory cues with immediate feedback available via online discussions and chat features. Our son really thrives in this kind of learning environment which we discovered this year. Some things like this you will not really know until you try them out. Although he liked AoPS he really prefers the interaction of live classes. It also helped him greatly in working on time management skills. We've also used and liked TabletClass Pre-A which is very good online math program. It is rigorous which may be a bit too challenging for some. We used it to prepare for AoPS Intro to Algebra and it worked out well for ds13. The bottom line is that you will hear about many programs which may sound like potential fits. But ultimately you will have to test out the waters to really determine what will work best. So the earlier you start exploring these various options with your dds the better, IMO. Just be willing to make course corrections if need be as each child is so different. That is one of the great benefits of homeschooling. You can tailor math to the individual child's needs.

Mastery programs such as Singapore, Math Mammoth and Math-in-Focus cover a good number of topics in one full school year. For example, here are the highlights of Math Mammoth 6 which our middle dd will be using this Fall: review of the basic operations with whole numbers beginning algebra topics: expressions, equations, and inequalities review of all decimal arithmetic introduction to ratios and percent prime factorization, GCF, and LCM a review of fraction arithmetic from 5th grade, plus a focus on division of fractions the concept of integers, coordinate grid, addition & subtraction of integers geometry: review of quadrilaterals & drawing problems; area of triangles & polygons; volume of rectangular prisms with fractional edge lengths; surface area statistics: concept of distribution, measures of center, measures of variation, boxplots, stem-and-leaf plots, histograms The Author, Maria Miller, refers to her curriculum as mastery. Here is a bit more of her description of her curriculum goals: Some main features of Math Mammoth complete curriculum (Light Blue series) are: focuses on understanding of mathematical concepts uses clear explanations, lots of visual exercises and pattern exercises mastery oriented: concentrates fairly long on a topic, with fairly few topics per grade emphasizes mental math and developing number sense very little teacher preparation needed There are a few key things here to notice: 1. Focus on conceptual development rather than more procedural approaches (e.g. plug and chug). That is an area where some programs are definitely weaker. 2. Mastery with review built-in. It does focus longer on topics than incremental programs like Saxon or CLE. Some children thrive more with this kind of approach. While others do better with more incremental, smaller bits at a time, then going back to work on those same topics later adding more smaller bits. Hence, you have fans for both. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you will have children in the *same* family who do better with one over the other. That is where it is good to try to be flexible, even though somewhat harder to do. While adults normally struggle more with variation and change children do better with it when something fits their learning style more. 3. Emphasis on mental math has been a really good thing. 4. Written toward the student like CLE, MUS and I think Saxon. So it can be done in a fairly independent fashion. Teaching it is fairly straight forward as opposed to other more complicated, teacher intensive programs.

That's fine since they are really just terms used to help convey how concepts are taught. I'm seeing this as somewhat semantics for those who use both types of programs since we know how they differ and are really describing those variations. There is a huge difference in the way mastery programs such as MUS and Math Mammoth teach concepts as whole parts to mastery when compared to those programs which are more incremental and spiral in nature. But I'm fine with using any of the terms as long as we honestly convey their obvious and very distinct differences.

I have heard these terms used somewhat interchangeably. So in doing a search I found a good description which demonstrates how many use them: "Incremental just describes the *type* of spiraling occurring. It means that not only are you getting a spiraling math, you're getting one that approaches the concepts in tiny bits, tiny increments, tiny pieces. So, ABeka math is spiral. (So is Horizons.) But Saxon is incremental/spiral: it spirals, like ABeka; but does so in tiny bits and pieces. CLE is also an incremental spiral, though different than Saxon's." -- http://homeschoolreviews.com/forums/1/thread.aspx?id=104773&page=1 I think many users of Saxon refer to its incremental nature and constant review as spiral. The same is true for CLE. http://www.homeschoolmath.net/curriculum_reviews/saxon.php

While they are both spiral I have heard CLE has a more gentle spiral than Saxon. So CLE could be an improvement for him. If your ds is bright and quick to pick up new concepts Math Mammoth could be better. It's really hard to say as every child is different. Instead, this is what I recommend. Look at the samples both programs offer *with* him. Have him go through a few pages of each one to better gauge potential fit. We actually used both CLE and MM together last year. CLE is a great program which we supplemented with MM for a time for added conceptual development. Over time we switched to MM because it does go a bit deeper into certain concepts. However, they are both very good and very affordable. Even if you bought a year of both cost would be pretty low. Then you could tailor the amount of either to fit his learning style.